Does the synthesist summoner feat still exists?
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How not having a summoner archetype justify having a free dedication feat (aka getting more power for nothing)?
That just seems sad, a ghost that cannot go through walls is not much of a ghost at all. All eidolon types won't be identical to corresponding monster/mythological creature. Doing so would be game breaking.
Thrown and any other trait that is not compatible with the anatomy of a natural attack do not apply. Why not allowing the Thrown trait? Allowing it allows to portrait cool attacks like Kimimaro throwing his phalanges in Naruto (go check it, it's really nice). I think ranged weapons could also be interesting without being broken, but many of them would interact strangely with a feature like that (alchemical bomb for example). Additionally this feat granting could be extended to general feats and class feats used to take an archetype. This would have to come with restrictions on what the eidolon can gain from these feats, [...] no spellcasting Why not? How allowing a eidolon to get spellcasting from an archetype would be stronger/less acceptable than allowing the summoner to get spellcasting from an archetype? What does it break? You haven't just summoned a creature from another plane of existance, you have become it. You have completely merged with your eidolon, turning into a singular creature, and nothing can separate you any more. Instead of gaining an eidolon, you fain all of the abilities that your eidolon would have possessed, including unarmed and unarmored proficienies. You use your own ability scores, not the eidolons. You can select Strength or Dexterity as you primary ability score in place of Charisma. If you take any evolution feats, they apply to you. Nice, but the ability to unsummon the eidolon is important since most eidolon will be monster-like (chromatic dragon, big beast, phantom, demon, etc). This means so many complications when in a city or near almost all non-antagonistic npc. For everything else in your main post : YES!
3. Darkvision All PCs in my party have low-light vision or darkvision. Cirieo does not, so I figured on balancing that by giving Fluffy darkvision via Sensory Evolution. But checking the beast eidolon senses, he already had darkvision. All eidolons have darkvision. Why is darkvision an option in Sensory Evolution?Not all eidolon types are available during the playtest. Some of the other types might not have darkvision by default. Well, it's kinda already stated that we'll get these : -Dragon-Construct -Amalgam -Angel -Demon -Psychopomp -Phantom -Beast -Plant -Fey -Elemental So, I would say an eidolon can be pretty much anything.
3. Darkvision All PCs in my party have low-light vision or darkvision. Cirieo does not, so I figured on balancing that by giving Fluffy darkvision via Sensory Evolution. But checking the beast eidolon senses, he already had darkvision. All eidolons have darkvision. Why is darkvision an option in Sensory Evolution? Not all eidolon types are available during the playtest. Some of the other types might not have darkvision by default.
If the synthesist becomes a class path, we should get a way to use our spell slot while in synthesis form. What about getting a special action allowing use to eat one of our spell slot for temporary hp? Then, there could be a feat allowing us to cast spell while in synthesis form.
So free weakness exploit, but less damage than current version. I don't like that. I want to be able to give elemental damage to my eidolon if it's appropriate for its type/concept, but the way you implemented it makes me feel like I'm forced to use whatever type is more effective depending on the situation, regardless of my concept. I don't want to use ice attacks on my fire elemental eidolon just because it's what's more appropriate for a specific encounter and because the power given by the flexibility of Boost Eidolon was accounted for in the power budget of the class. Eidolons: 10 hit points per level with the summoner gaining 6 per level. NO. The eidolon is not a second character. The eidolon + summoner are one character and shouldn't get more ressources than the other characters. That would eat way too much of the power budget of the class...
Again, no. The eidolon's stats are built the exact same way the stats for the other characters are built. Giving him more stats is risking to make it unbalanced. Just allowing us to allocate freely the stats of the eidolon would be enough.
An eidolon is (or at least should be) nearly as much powerful as another character in term of fighting power while an AC is (or should be) way less powerful than that. Giving unlimited flight to the eidolon at level 1 would be game breaking (trivialize skill challenge and melee-only fight).
Your response to my second statement is a little silly, clearly before you summon the eidolon you have the same number of actions and hps as after therfore all the hps and actions belong to you and the eidolon bring nothing to the party.All the actions the eidolon uses are ones you gave it. Because the eidolon and the summoner are effectively only one character and don't need investment. This is why they share hit point, class feats pool and actions.
This. Instead of costing two feats, it should either be one feat that we can take at high level (aka what we have currently) or be one feat that scale at higher level.I hate it when a feat I took becomes useless because another higher level feat I took do the exact same thing, but better. More feats -should means more options, not more power in one option.
How about a working synthesist path instead?
It's the same thing about eidolon not having their own pool of feats.
LOL! I want my Eidolon wearing an Eidolon...Or a Eidolon that manifest a power armor eidolon (synthesis)... Wait... You could wear your eidolon who is also wearing an eidolon... Matryoshka doll summoner FTW!!!
Or a Eidolon that manifest a power armor eidolon (synthesis-style)...
Maybe it's just me that don't know where to look, but I didn't find where it's stated that all creatures sharing a Creature Type Traits share x or y abilities. Therefore I think a feat like that would requires way too much work, takes too much space and it wouldn't be futur-proof...
I see that you have a particular view of what the game is that most of us do not share.Uh no. A lot of people have stated they want more customization with their eidolon. Most agree with me. This is just a partial truth. A lot of people have stated they want more customization, but not that much actually stated that they like your proposition.
Considering the sheer number of abuses of the synthesist archetype in PF1 I'm pretty okay with Synthesis being a thing that a character would do purely for the aesthetics of it, and not for any sort of mechanical efficiency. And yet there's a good chunk of the summoner fan base that want to go all synthesist...
That might not be enough. Having to spend 1 action / turn to compete in melee and not having a fourth action might make them not competitive option compared to martial classes. I would be more in favor of getting the bonus given by Boost Eidolon if you're merged with your eidolon (I assume synthesis would be a class path and not a feat).
So you get to play 2 full characters instead of one with split ressources. This doesn't seem balanced even considering you share actions between both characters since you'll be far more flexible than any other possible character build. No. You haven't. You've refuted a strawman. That strawman is well and beaten by now. I think any more clobbering is a bit overkill. It's not because you refuse to hear others people's arguments that it means other people didn't give you valid arguments... I'd even be willing to lower the actual power of the BASE Eidolon in order to give them power space to add in those customizable options. Then most of these options would be spent to get back that power loss unless you don't care about having a weak eidolon... The part that they can't cover literally every single concept. Pathfinder 2E is a finite game with finite options. It's a design choice the dev have made. If you don't like that, go play GURPS... Why can't we just have an evolution that states, "Choose a creature type. Your Eidolon becomes that type" ?. That could be a feat (with maybe some added benefits)...
It was overly complicated, subject to gameism, exploitation and overoptimization, and doesnt fit with the already existing paradigm for class customization in PF2E for class customization via feats. The thing is, I don't think your implementation really solve the problem of "this is too complex for newbies" and introduce something powerful that some build won't really need. Getting only a few choice from a limited list at level 1 and having a few feats to expend both your options and the list from which you can pick looks to me like a better implementation of what you're suggesting.
Mark, if you read this - is there some developer side reason a Eidolon shouldn't be able to pick up something like full Multiclass Spellcasting progression thag I am missing? If I'm spending class feats on these resources and I'm literally comparing multiclass wizard and magical evolution, shouldn't they be roughly equivalent in effect? That kinda let you get two or more dedications without having to take 3 feats, but beside that, I don't see why an Eidolon shouldn't be able to pick up something like that...
The lack of sidegrade/interesting combat options might be related to the fact that we don't have access to all feats in the playtest...
I like the synthesis feat because it makes synthesis summoning optional. The feat doesn't need to be published as-is, it can be buffed or changed to fit the needs of the fantasy. If players are dead-set on synthesis manifesting being the only option for a dedicated synthesis summoner, then maybe the whole thing should be cut from the base class and made a class archetype, either in this book or a later one. Like I said in another thread, standard vs synthesis vs master could be class paths and it doesn't mean there won't be a feat to get a lesser version of the paths you haven't picked at level 1...
I disagree with this. Getting to pick a few familiar-like abilities at level 1, then having feats that gives more of them and/or give more options seems way simpler and doesn't eat the power budget of the class for something that is useless for some build (ie master summoner build). That would allow us to still have feats for some really strong evolutions. Here's a few example of basics evolutions:
And here's a few example of feats:
Mutating eidolon
Dragon evolutions
Way too complex for a class that tends to appeal to new players. I'm more in favor of familiar-style minor abilities.
There could be a "class path but more limited" feat for each class path. Like a summon monster with a frequency of one per day for the "master summoner" path, a time limited (or no summoner's ability like it is currently) synthesis for the synthesis path and a time limited standard eidolon for the standard eidolon path. This would allow to mix and match some iconic abilities of the summoner without overstepping on the toes of each class path. I see I mis-explained my idea again XD I was suggesting getting to choose one of the three class path (master, standard, synthesis) and later on having class feats that give a lesser version of one of the class path thus allowing someone to dip into the other class path if he wishes so...
There could be a "class path but more limited" feat for each class path. Like a summon monster with a frequency of one per day for the "master summoner" path, a time limited (or no summoner's ability like it is currently) synthesis for the synthesis path and a time limited standard eidolon for the standard eidolon path. This would allow to mix and match some iconic abilities of the summoner without overstepping on the toes of each class path.
If you don't care about the standard eidolon, why are you playing a summoner? Summoners are [...] not the "turns into a dragon/angel/ghost/beast" class. This is literally what's a synthesist was in 1E. With the synthesis feat, the dev are giving us the expectation that this playstyle should still be possible, but it isn't. It's exactly like the mutagenist alchemist (although the mutagenist was way worst). Yeah, Wizards get both a Thesis and a School. I think Summoners getting both an Eidolon Type and a Class Path is entirely reasonable.Apples to oranges. Sorcerers don't get an option to completely change how their bloodline spells manifest, nor do oracles get the option to significantly alter the way curses work. Not all class options are equally impactful; just because one class gets two lower-impact options doesn't mean all classes are entitled to two options. Many classes get a class path AND a level 1 feat, so giving the summoner an eidolon type and a class path wouldn't be that different. I used the wizard as a comparison since it's the easiest one to do, Arcane School being a theme option like the eidolon type and Arcane Thesis being more a "how you do your thing" option like the standard vs synthesis is.
Or just have different paths for different types of summoners as has been suggested before.It seems clear to me that the different eidolons are intended to be the different paths for the class. They're analogous to sorcerer bloodlines or witch patrons. Different paths beyond that point should be relegated to feat trees. And it also has been stated why this isn't a satisfying solution. Let's take the synthesis summoner for example : It currently cost you a level 1 feat and isn't a good/viable combat option among other things. To make it a great combat option, it would require a few feats at least. This means that if you want to play a synthesis summoner and you don't really care about the standard eidolon, then you're forced to either play a gimped character or in a way you don't want to play and later on, you get a viable character, but with a gimped feat progression (because of feat taxes) and a bunch of abilities that you won't use at all...
This is something that should be possible with a synthesis build, but it's not the case actually...
I would not call what they are currently giving Eidolons. At best they are weak Phantoms. So it should be named the manifester...
I think I should point something : [16, 16, 16, 8, 12, 10] is a stat array that a non-summoner can have at level 1, that let the eidolon be good at either str attacks or dex attacks and gives them good fortitude save (must have for melee character). I think this is why they gave these stats although it seems they didn't think about the level 20 boost.
I'd honestly rather have it built into the Eidolon. We get so few feats as they are, feat choices need to be thoughtful.Constitution also does a lot less for them than for PCs, as does Intelligence, which makes it weird they increase those in the same manner as PCs and at the same cost to their other stats (since Con doesn't give HP, and Int doesn't grant Skills). Really, them increasing stats like PCs is weird and has weird knock-on effects, and something more like how an animal companion raises Ability scores might be good in that respect. Hum. I think there is a misunderstanding here. I wanted to suggest 2~3 free at level 1 and extra as a feat... My bad...
Constitution also does a lot less for them than for PCs, as does Intelligence, which makes it weird they increase those in the same manner as PCs and at the same cost to their other stats (since Con doesn't give HP, and Int doesn't grant Skills). Really, them increasing stats like PCs is weird and has weird knock-on effects, and something more like how an animal companion raises Ability scores might be good in that respect. Letting them use these stats for some of their abilities instead of the spell casting DC of the summoner could fix this. They wouldn't need a huge number (two at 1st level would be plenty, and maybe more as you level) Or maybe via a feat?
ALL the Eidolons will be homogenized. Unique Eidolons are essentially a thing of the past when leaving it as is from a mechanical view. I kinda agree with you, but I think there could be more variation for the senses, attacks, ability scores and speeds. Why I can't make a ranged eidolon at level 1? Why all eidolons have dark vision? Why the beast eidolon has 12 wis, 10 cha and charisma-based abilities? I think we should get some variation on these things.
To be honest, I don't think summoner needs spellcasting beside cantrips and focus spells, but I don't really want to separate evolution from feats.
Put me in the camp that says Synthesist should be a class path chosen at the start. Would make it way easier to balance, and the crossover feats could have any requisite nerfs to prevent cheese.I want to start by saying that I fundamentally agree. However, Paizo is obviously using the eidolon type as the class path, and it seems they don't like having two different class paths. I would love for them to give us class paths for these kinds of things. I wonder if there's some other way they could do it? Maybe give the Summoner a 1st-level class feat, and make the only 1st level feats effectively equivalent to class paths? Only choose at level 1, can't retrain out of them, etc? This does seem like it's getting a bit overly complex though Eidolon types (dragon, beast, etc) should be like wizard's Arcane Schools and we should get something like Arcane Thesis for synthesist/not synthesist.
I am becoming more convinced by the day that doing the math ruins this game. I disagree. Some people just like doing maths.
Okay then, second answer: Run Synthesist until you get Transpose. Retrain Synthesist out. When combat starts, swap places with your Eidolon 100 feet away. Boom, done. This isn't supposed to be how a synthesist works.
Not sure if its been brought up as a suggestion in-thread yet (lot of text) but would the option of like a Level 8+ feat that just auto-applied either Boost Eidolon or Reinforce Eidolon (assuming you have it) fix the problems people think exists here with balance? At that point you've burned 2 feats sure but now your Synthesist is functioning at roughly the same level as a normally manifested Eidolon and you can just pretend you're a magical vigilante with a Combat form and a Social form. No. That means we'll have to wait until level 8+ to be an effective synthesist. The thing is, synthesis shouldn't be about getting more option/flexibility. It should be about fighting differently. Synthesist should be a battle option, not a flexibility one.
So that means the concentrate trait applies only to the actions used to manifest your eidolon. It also means if you have Synthesis, you can sleep while in synthesis and just pretend you're a [insert here what's your eidolon looking like]...
Comparing the eidolon with an animal companion is foolish. The eidolon is like at least 70% of the power budget of the class. On another note, do you know if we can keep our eidolon out when sleeping? Manifest Eidolon has the concentrate trait but I don't know if it applies as long as you have your eidolon manifested.
Are we really okay with giving PCs fast healing? I'm not immediately aware of any such thing in the game at the moment... although I admit I might be missing something. Outside of combat, healing is pretty much free anyway. And if it's too strong, it could get limited use, require action, be fueled by focus points, etc...
I think your first quote refers to number of actions, not actual actions that can be selected. There are plenty of actions that can be performed by the summoner and not the eidolon and vice versa, either permanently or temporarily. That's probably the right interpretation, but it needs to be more clearly stated in the description.
If there were feats up the chain that empowered your Synthesized form I don't think it should. You're already trading 1 action per turn or more considering Tandem actions. That alone is a really big drawback. Adding feats to make it better would just be tax feats in the end. Just let the summoner choose at creation if they want to be a synthesis or a standard summoner. People expect to be able to play a full synthesis melee summoner exactly like they were expecting to be able to play a full melee mutagenist. I personally feel that this current version of Synthesis makes the character weaker but I will playtest it. Just keep in mind that synthesis should probably be used sparingly in it's current form because the only thing you're slightly better at is defense. You're loosing even on action economy and versatility.
Conversely, I don't think this edition should be constrained by the whims of the prior. Now, I completely get that people want to play the Synthesist, and I do get that the name is misleading, but the ability as-is isn't a terrible one. I still hope that something akin to the Synthesist from first edition is possible, but that doesn't have to be at the expense of this feat's existence. Perhaps the name though.I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue. In that vein, as well as being a fair bit more defensive than having one squishy mage body to worry about, it's a useful, potentially very useful tool in the toolbox. Which is, to be fair, what a first-level feat is meant to be.And this is why it shouldn't be a feat in the first place. People from 1E expect the synthesis to be a fighting option. It's the exact same problem as the mutagenist. I think we both agree that a full synthesist build (like in 1E) should be possible. But then, if something akin to the Synthesist from first edition is possible without the feat, then what would be the purpose of the feat? If you let the summoner choose at creation if he wants a standard eidolon OR a syntesis eidolon and then you create a feat that let you get both options, you get the best of both world :1 - The "full synthesis" build is possible and not gimped. 2 - The "full eidolon" build is possible and not gimped. 3 - The "eidolon/synthesis" build is possible. And if getting both options for a 1st level feat is too strong, you can either (or both) :
(nesting it in Act Together) It's already confirmed in the sticky thread that you can't do that. Edit : I think they should specify you can't use action that have the Tandem trait with one of the actions give by Act Together. That would be more clear.
The eidolon :
The prone condition : You’re lying on the ground. You are flat-footed and take a –2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls. The only move actions you can use while you’re prone are Crawl and Stand. Standing up ends the prone condition. You can Take Cover while prone to hunker down and gain cover against ranged attacks, even if you don’t have an object to get behind, gaining a +4 circumstance bonus to AC against ranged attacks (but you remain flat-footed). Does that mean that if the eidolon is prone, the only move actions the summoner can take are Crawl and Stand unless he makes his eidolon stand up?
I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue. In that vein, as well as being a fair bit more defensive than having one squishy mage body to worry about, it's a useful, potentially very useful tool in the toolbox. Which is, to be fair, what a first-level feat is meant to be. And this is why it shouldn't be a feat in the first place. People from 1E expect the synthesis to be a fighting option. It's the exact same problem as the mutagenist.
Well, most enemies will probably focus eidolon even if they're dumb simply because the eidolon is closer/more fearsome/actively fighting. So it appears to me that the concern about bad will saves is real.
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