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So I feel that the synthesist feat should work as is but whilst you are using it you should always be under the effects of boost.
This gets around the loss of focus cantrips and tandem actions. But still limits the actions you can do as a cost of the higher defenses.
What do you think?
I think if they keep it as is and count as your boost of choice and let you still use your summoner focus spells its a decent trade off. Trading off your spell casting for more of a direct melee focused build seems pretty reasonable.
I kinda wonder though if the reason this feat is kinda a bit extra restrictive right now is because they do intend a specific archetype or class focus option for a synthesist focused summoner.
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I think they are trying to avoid the problem from PF1 of the Synthesist being a super powered combination of the physical stats of the eidolon with the mental stats of the summoner.
One way to fix that might be to allow the summoner synthesized with his eidolon to cast spells, but he has to use the eidolon's mental stats to do so. This would seriously hamper his use of attack spells but let most buffs work normally.
Edit: Another way might be to say that the summoner cannot target anything but his eidolon, as that is all he has line of effect to. That would rule out any sort of attack spell other than the hypothetical "Detonate Eidolon" spell.
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Synthesis Summoner is quite stuffed at the moment.
The problem of being a super power combination of the physical stats of the eidolon with the mental stats of the summoner doesn't really exist. Because the stat advancment rules are very generous and affect 4 stats, and Eidolons start at 16 - which a normal character can do anyway. 16 STR or DEX is possible for a wizard/druid/cleric/bard and not really that bad an idea. STR probably means you neglect DEX a bit and get into a bulwark armour - but anyone can do that with Sentinel. Basically its a non problem.
The synthesis summoner needs a way to cast its Conduit Spells on itself. Particularily Edilion Surge and the cantrips.
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Synthesis Summoner is quite stuffed at the moment.
The problem of being a super power combination of the physical stats of the eidolon with the mental stats of the summoner doesn't really exist. Because the stat advancment rules are very generous and affect 4 stats, and Eidolons start at 16 - which a normal character can do anyway. 16 STR or DEX is possible for a wizard/druid/cleric/bard and not really that bad an idea. STR probably means you neglect DEX a bit and get into a bulwark armour - but anyone can do that with Sentinel. Basically its a non problem.
The synthesis summoner needs a way to cast its Conduit Spells on itself. Particularily Edilion Surge and the cantrips.
I have to agree with you, as somebody who played a Synth in 1e i don't see getting mental stats in 2e as that big of a deal. I can take it or leave it, it's not really a significant boost anyway from what i would've gotten if i just boosted what i wanted for my Eidolon anyway. In the same token, the only reason i'd rather leave it out is so there's more room to make the Eidolon stronger for Synth and so the idea of having your mental stats doesn't have the chance to become over-valued in the design of Synth.
As far as Synth casting those cantrips on itself, i agree it needs some way to access them; i'm fond of the idea that the Synth could cast them as a free action or that the duration is significantly lengthened for Synth in order to not restrain the action economy that much more, otherwise you're losing 1 action per turn just by doing so.
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In a melee between an eidolon and a 16 STR wizard, I would bet on the eidolon.
Even with the wizards full spell list?
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Reading synthesis rn is weird. At some point you'd expect a 'but' telling you some kind of benefit you get from merging beyond being in a safe pocket.
Like the rest of you are saying I don't think even combining mental and physical stats would make for a great thing considering what you're losing access to.
My thoughts:
Allowing Act Together to continue to work.
Allow Conduit spells to be cast
Allow mental actions to be taken, like recall checks.
Disallow non-Conduit Spells.
Disallow activating non-eidolon magic items
Disallow performing actions that require you [like skill feat actions].
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My thoughts:
Allowing Act Together to continue to work.
Allow Conduit spells to be cast
Allow mental actions to be taken, like recall checks.Disallow non-Conduit Spells.
Disallow activating non-eidolon magic items
Disallow performing actions that require you [like skill feat actions].
The Synthesis Summoner does get to use their own skill feats with the Eidolons form. Where as the normal Eidolon can't.
It is not a great ability - as the normal Summoner can continue to use their own skill feats, even though the Eidolon can't - but it is a difference.Not sure why you want to take it away from the Synthesis Summoner? It not as if it needs any limitations. It is certainly not "Expendable" like the regular Eidolon.
Personally I think even if there is an extra cost, the normal Eidolon needs some way to get at least one General Feat and one Skill feat. Or you are cutting Summoners out of a significant part of the game.
The Synthesis Summoner does get to use their own skill feats with the Eidolons form. Where as the normal Eidolon can't.
As is, the summoner doesn't get actions in Synthesis so they can't use theirs skill feats: I can't think of a skill feat that doesn't require actions or a physical body you can move. In Synthesis, the summoner is a mere passenger... It doesn't feel very fun to have to leave Synthesis every time you have to use a skill, skill feat, use a magic item or pretty much other than commanding your pet to move and 'hulk smash'.
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Technically, stats make a smaller proportion of the overall value of the modifier than they used to.
However, given the much tighter math and crit system, any difference matters. And at 1st level, having a +3 or +4 difference because of stats is huge.
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A Synthesist with the ability to share stats from either form would be able to start 16/16/16/14/16/18 with ease, and it'd probably be better if/when eidolons can start with an 18 in STR or DEX.
That's too much for a 1st level character.
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A Synthesist with the ability to share stats from either form would be able to start 16/16/16/14/16/18 with ease, and it'd probably be better if/when eidolons can start with an 18 in STR or DEX.
That's too much for a 1st level character.
Arguably, it could be fine if it was their whole "thing". I'm not sure what that would look like though.
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Maybe synthesis should be a focus spell or have like a clock mechanic of how long you can spend time merged.
I don't like the idea of the synthesis becoming your primary body that much and being limited in some way could make a more powerful version feel more meaningful
Hot take: I'm totally fine having synthesis disable spellcasting, but I want it to allow the Summoner to use martial feats/class features through the eidolon; I want to take the barbarian archetype and have a raging eidolon. I think it's a decent tradeoff since you give up the versatility of spellcasting for the versatility of martial feats and would play a lot better into the idea of a much more fighting-minded summoner.
You won't threaten the actual barbarian's niche since you only have the archetype (you'd have to balance against abuse for the summoner archetype though) and since your numbers will generally be a bit worse. Then your spellcasting becomes more of a utility thing for either out of combat or if you just want to play more traditionally and use your conduit spells. The way I see it, it'll fill a similar niche to the mutagenist alch that goes ham in melee: not as good as a full martial, but still fun.
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This I agree with. But honestly, I think Eidolons if it doesnt use our stats for mental, it should offer us an array to pick from so we dont just 100% suck at skills such as recall knowledge while in our suit.Hot take: I'm totally fine having synthesis disable spellcasting, but I want it to allow the Summoner to use martial feats/class features through the eidolon; I want to take the barbarian archetype and have a raging eidolon. I think it's a decent tradeoff since you give up the versatility of spellcasting for the versatility of martial feats and would play a lot better into the idea of a much more fighting-minded summoner.
You won't threaten the actual barbarian's niche since you only have the archetype (you'd have to balance against abuse for the summoner archetype though) and since your numbers will generally be a bit worse. Then your spellcasting becomes more of a utility thing for either out of combat or if you just want to play more traditionally and use your conduit spells. The way I see it, it'll fill a similar niche to the mutagenist alch that goes ham in melee: not as good as a full martial, but still fun.
Mmm, yeah, and it would be nice to be able to use that killer intimidation while still roided out in beast mode. The thing is I played a 1e synthesist and even unchained I was a nightmare. Like I went toe-to-toe with an optimized magus and handed his ass to him on a silver platter before turning a rogue into a fish with baleful polymorph, so I think being careful with stat melding would be good.
Maybe it would work if only your Cha remains because your intellect and instincts are too melded with your eidolon? Maybe Synthesist becomes a kind of dedication and one of the drawbacks is that you need to share your four ability boosts with your eidolon instead of it getting its own?
Part of that though was also that Eidolons were just broken when optimized. I think that has less to do with stats and more to do with having 8 natural attacks.
Also very possible. I guess it wouldn't be huge, I'm mostly worried about ti feeling unfair that you can max stuff like Demoralize and Bon Mot just with your key ability and still lift the big rocks without paying a cost. Maybe stick a feat tax on it so you have to commit like 2 class feats or something by 4th level to get mental stats, idk.
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The Synthesis Summoner does get to use their own skill feats with the Eidolons form. Where as the normal Eidolon can't.As is, the summoner doesn't get actions in Synthesis so they can't use theirs skill feats: I can't think of a skill feat that doesn't require actions or a physical body you can move. In Synthesis, the summoner is a mere passenger... It doesn't feel very fun to have to leave Synthesis every time you have to use a skill, skill feat, use a magic item or pretty much other than commanding your pet to move and 'hulk smash'.
Yeah. Looking at it again. I did get that wrong. Thanks.
So the Eidolon never gets any skill feats, and can't really benefit from the bulk of ancestry or general feats.
I think you can do skills just though the Eidolon but it really is the Eidolon acting with your skill. some have hands some don't and there is balancing.
"Your eidolon can act, but you can’t except to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest your eidolon." This means that they can use the skills they share with you but they must use their stats and have no access to your skill feats: this means that the summoner can't roll for a Recall check which means the Eidolon has to with it's mental stats.
For instance, if the summoner using Synthesis, has Intimidating Glare and the Eidolon uses Demoralize on an animal, it takes a -4 and uses it's Cha for the roll as the summoner is just along for the ride.
I really love the idea of the character getting to use an Act together to have the Summoner make a Recall knowledge check in the background, while the Eidolon performs an action. I’m trying to think of what other actions might be able to be preformed, essentially remotely.
As to accessing the Summoners mental stats, what if the Eidolon could choose to use them, but there is a repercussion/cost for doing so.
Doing so might subject the Summoner to certain types of attacks. Accessing wisdom, for instance might make the Summoner subject to Will saves?
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I gotta tell you guys, i honestly think a lot of you are over-valuing being able to use your own mental stats as a Synth in 2e.
With 2e making classes a lot less MAD and with the fact you get ability score boosts at the same level your Summoner does, it's not as enticing like it was in 1e.
If it'll buy us more power in the class budget for Synthesist, i'd easily have no problem not getting to use my own mental stats at all.
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Using the Eidolon's stats but still using the Summoner's Casting modifiers and DCs means that they still benefit from the main advantage of their Charisma, even if their mental stats are low while fused.
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I gotta tell you guys, i honestly think a lot of you are over-valuing being able to use your own mental stats as a Synth in 2e.
With 2e making classes a lot less MAD and with the fact you get ability score boosts at the same level your Summoner does, it's not as enticing like it was in 1e.
If it'll buy us more power in the class budget for Synthesist, i'd easily have no problem not getting to use my own mental stats at all.
The biggest advantage is having 18 CHA for demoralize etc, frankly. Which given that you're getting 16 STR on your "proper" martial chassis anyways isn't that big of a deal.
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As far as stats are concerned there are four possibilities:
2. We get a mix: eidolon's physical and the summoner's mental. Other players whining "it is not fair."
4. build the stats: the stats are the same as a level 1 character. We get customization.
Scenario 2 is one i'd really like to avoid, even though it wouldn't be unbalanced to just give Synths use of their own mental stats, i know a lot of people would cry and over-value it.
Scenario 4 would be kinda cool; honestly, it might save on page space by not having to display stat arrays on the Eidolons and give people more customization to their Eidolons.
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If the synthesist becomes a class path, we should get a way to use our spell slot while in synthesis form. What about getting a special action allowing use to eat one of our spell slot for temporary hp? Then, there could be a feat allowing us to cast spell while in synthesis form.
Personally, my preferred changed would probably be adding both of these:
1) the summoner can still use act together, but the summoner cannot cannot make any actions that requires a physical body (using the limitations of flickering body)
2) the eidolon is capable of using actions granted to the summoner by class features or feats, for the exception of spellcasting
This would allow the summoner to still cast 1 action spells like true strike or boost eidolon that keep the eidolon's math good, while respecting the desire paizo has with restricting casting while fused. Imo, it's not that big a deal, but whatevs.
This also allows for cool archetype combos, like a beast synthesist mc animal totem barbarian that can rage while fused, or synthesist/monk or martial artist that can ride inside their large or huge eidolon and bust out some mecha martial arts.
This approach also allows opens up alternate ways to play some concepts that are *sorta* supported, but not entirely, by the existing classes. A beast synthesist/primal sorcerer or druid would replicate the "perpetually polymorphed" wild shape druid of 1e, with the balance factor that they can only be one specific type of animal forever and natural weapons aren't crazy strong anymore, angelic eidolon with blessed one or champion make for more magically focused holy warriors, which are offset by lower ac and a potentially smaller weapon die size, dragon disciples who want to turn into an actual freakin dragon level 1 have a balanced way of doing so, etc
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Personally, my preferred changed would probably be adding both of these:
1) the summoner can still use act together, but the summoner cannot cannot make any actions that requires a physical body (using the limitations of flickering body)
2) the eidolon is capable of using actions granted to the summoner by class features or feats, for the exception of spellcasting
This would allow the summoner to still cast 1 action spells like true strike or boost eidolon that keep the eidolon's math good, while respecting the desire paizo has with restricting casting while fused. Imo, it's not that big a deal, but whatevs.
This also allows for cool archetype combos, like a beast synthesist mc animal totem barbarian that can rage while fused, or synthesist/monk or martial artist that can ride inside their large or huge eidolon and bust out some mecha martial arts.
This approach also allows opens up alternate ways to play some concepts that are *sorta* supported, but not entirely, by the existing classes. A beast synthesist/primal sorcerer or druid would replicate the "perpetually polymorphed" wild shape druid of 1e, with the balance factor that they can only be one specific type of animal forever and natural weapons aren't crazy strong anymore, angelic eidolon with blessed one or champion make for more magically focused holy warriors, which are offset by lower ac and a potentially smaller weapon die size, dragon disciples who want to turn into an actual freakin dragon level 1 have a balanced way of doing so, etc
I definitely think you're onto something here in terms of balancing Synthesist so it does gain benefit from what it realistically should.
Synthesist is 1 creature acting, you can keep the flavor of the Summoner being "asleep" or whatever, but i'd like to be able to use my own skill feats and class feats that affect me.That said, i don't agree with Synth being able to use Tandem actions, the whole point of Synth is you give up action economy and versatility for bolstering and making the Eidolon more powerful.
Honestly, the only reason I'd even think about wanting Act Together is because the eidolon gives up casting since people seem to think it's OP.
My absolute ideal is simply allowing the eidolon to use the summoner's class abilities and feats, including spellcasting, and just leaving it at that. My first suggestion was honestly more of a response to the kneejerkers with flashbacks to 1e synthesists (which aren't even possible in 2e anyways because of how natural weapons work)
It honestly feels bad to me that you can't buff yourself and use evolution surge while fused.
I think allowing casting and ability use in exchange for action economy is actually super fair though. It lets you flip between what amounts to a caster with some basic martial archetype feats when fused, and a pet master with a handful of support spells when separate
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From how I picture synthesis is that the summoner and Eidolon MERGE into one thing and they still keep some of their Summoner identity while merging together with the Eidolon. I'd like to keep some of that fantasy.
I would very much like that as well; you're supposed to be fused with your Eidolon.
Right now 2e has it to where your Eidolon slips on you while you take a nap.