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First of all, I'm glad that we've got the Synthesis feat! It's cool, and above and beyond what we would really expect to have available alongside a Summoner re-release.
But.
- If you're already losing an action per round, it feels bad to lose out on casting. A lot of what folks want is to play a monster, and needing to hop out of eidolon form to use a big chunk of power hurts.
- Your eidolon form is actually weaker than when it's summoned separately, because you can't cast your boosting cantrips on it.
- And, if I'm going to try playing "all eidolon, all the time", it would be nice to be able to use items.
In fairness/
I am ignoring a big chunk of the advantage of this feat. You aren't locked into it- you can summon your eidolon stacked up on yourself, or separately, however you like. It allows you to switch between two sets of stats. The reason I'm ignoring those is because they're not much use to somebody who wants to use it as much as possible.
At least personally, I'd be very happy to get an class archetype that only allows Synthesis summoning, and in return removes some of the limitations on it. It sounds like a good use of the Uncommon tag.
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I am ignoring a big chunk of the advantage of this feat.
Which is?
Genuinely I can't tell.
Reading the feat a couple times it... deprives you of your action economy advantage and makes it so you can't cast spells or perform any actions that rely on you (so goodbye picking up new activities from feats and archetypes).
And in return you... ???
Save actions on moving if a battle happens in a very large space? except maybe not since you don't get tandem actions anymore
I've read this feat over and over trying to figure out what cool power it has but it legitimately seems like it does almost nothing except take away a bunch of actions.
Where are we losing an action per round, exactly? Just the advantage gained by Act Together?
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At least personally, I'd be very happy to get an class archetype that only allows Synthesis summoning, and in return removes some of the limitations on it.
That should be the default. You should have to choose at 1st level if you want an independent eidolon or a synthesis eidolon and, via a feat, you should be able to use the other option...
I am ignoring a big chunk of the advantage of this feat.Which is?
Genuinely I can't tell.
Reading the feat a couple times it... deprives you of your action economy advantage and makes it so you can't cast spells or perform any actions that rely on you (so goodbye picking up new activities from feats and archetypes).
And in return you... ???
Save actions on moving if a battle happens in a very large space?
except maybe not since you don't get tandem actions anymoreI've read this feat over and over trying to figure out what cool power it has but it legitimately seems like it does almost nothing except take away a bunch of actions.
Eidolon have better defense. The synthesis option allows the summoner to be less vunerable.
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I also posted a thread on this. Fundamentally, I think it's the losing out on Conduit Spells, the thing that literally only exist to buff your Eidolon, that really hurts.
The action economy loss is a big hit, but one that's maybe worth it for the lack of squishiness (and Synthesis provides a very real defensive benefit), and even the lack of your spell slot spells is workable...but the Conduit Spells? You need those for basic functionality in a lot of ways.
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Where are we losing an action per round, exactly? Just the advantage gained by Act Together?
Yep.
I am ignoring a big chunk of the advantage of this feat.Which is?
Genuinely I can't tell.
Reading the feat a couple times it... deprives you of your action economy advantage and makes it so you can't cast spells or perform any actions that rely on you (so goodbye picking up new activities from feats and archetypes).
And in return you... ???
Save actions on moving if a battle happens in a very large space?
except maybe not since you don't get tandem actions anymoreI've read this feat over and over trying to figure out what cool power it has but it legitimately seems like it does almost nothing except take away a bunch of actions.
I don't want to ignore the ways that you can abuse Synthesis, just because they're not things I find fun.
Let's say you are playing a mixed social and combat game. Dump physical stats, grab mental stats, and use Sythesis to avoid the consequences. Any time you don't need your body to get special protection, you can just choose to summon separately and get the usual net-four actions. Because it's optional, you only suffer the drawbacks when you need to.
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i really don't understand the point of giving us a dragon or an angel that said to have wink but give the the fly move only at minimum lv 9 for 1 min.
Because now I can have a legit angel at level 1 as a pet, without breaking the balance of the game.
It makes the class playable, because my GM will let me play the class ;)
Seriously though, I'm with Deadmanwalking. The only thing I'm missing for Sythesis to feel right at level 1 is conduit spells.
Give me that, and at level 1 I can play an Angel, for all intents and purposes and I'm set.
Seriously though, I'm with Deadmanwalking. The only thing I'm missing for Sythesis to feel right at level 1 is conduit spells.
Give me that, and at level 1 I can play an Angel, for all intents and purposes and I'm set.
My interest is more in not needing to "hop out" as much, since that opens up more character stuff that I'm interested in. It might just be too unbalanced, though…
My interest is more in not needing to "hop out" as much, since that opens up more character stuff that I'm interested in. It might just be too unbalanced, though…Seriously though, I'm with Deadmanwalking. The only thing I'm missing for Sythesis to feel right at level 1 is conduit spells.
Give me that, and at level 1 I can play an Angel, for all intents and purposes and I'm set.
You mean, for instance, to use something like Battle Medicine which you have access to but your Eidolon does not?
You mean, for instance, to use something like Battle Medicine which you have access to but your Eidolon does not?My interest is more in not needing to "hop out" as much, since that opens up more character stuff that I'm interested in. It might just be too unbalanced, though…Seriously though, I'm with Deadmanwalking. The only thing I'm missing for Sythesis to feel right at level 1 is conduit spells.
Give me that, and at level 1 I can play an Angel, for all intents and purposes and I'm set.
Ah, right, forgot about skill feats.
Yeah. I don't care about Tony Starking it up and wearing a magic battle suit; I want to play an aberration or a devil in a reasonably balanced fashion.
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You mean, for instance, to use something like Battle Medicine which you have access to but your Eidolon does not?My interest is more in not needing to "hop out" as much, since that opens up more character stuff that I'm interested in. It might just be too unbalanced, though…Seriously though, I'm with Deadmanwalking. The only thing I'm missing for Sythesis to feel right at level 1 is conduit spells.
Give me that, and at level 1 I can play an Angel, for all intents and purposes and I'm set.
Ah, right, forgot about skill feats.
Yeah. I don't care about Tony Starking it up and wearing a magic battle suit; I want to play an aberration or a devil in a reasonably balanced fashion.
Maybe a "Moment of Clarity" type feat that allows you to act while merged, at the cost of an action the same round, could be viable?
Thats a horrible tax. Not only a feat but also an action just to use your normal abilities is bad.Maybe a "Moment of Clarity" type feat that allows you to act while merged, at the cost of an action the same round, could be viable?You mean, for instance, to use something like Battle Medicine which you have access to but your Eidolon does not?My interest is more in not needing to "hop out" as much, since that opens up more character stuff that I'm interested in. It might just be too unbalanced, though…Seriously though, I'm with Deadmanwalking. The only thing I'm missing for Sythesis to feel right at level 1 is conduit spells.
Give me that, and at level 1 I can play an Angel, for all intents and purposes and I'm set.
Ah, right, forgot about skill feats.
Yeah. I don't care about Tony Starking it up and wearing a magic battle suit; I want to play an aberration or a devil in a reasonably balanced fashion.
Not when I can otherwise have ideal stats, because I can double up on ability boosts for myself and my eidolon.
Seriously, if you can use your abilities theres no reason to take physical stats as your eidolon can cover those.
Its exactly the biggest flaw with 1e Synthesists - you're removing all drawbacks.
My concern would be that a Feat and 1 action tax doesn't go far enough for that sort of benefit.
Not when I can otherwise have ideal stats, because I can double up on ability boosts for myself and my eidolon.Seriously, if you can use your abilities theres no reason to take physical stats as your eidolon can cover those.
Its exactly the biggest flaw with 1e Synthesists - you're removing all drawbacks.
My concern would be that a Feat and 1 action tax doesn't go far enough for that sort of benefit.
How about we remove the part about getting your eidolon's stats and instead get to choose either eidolon or synthesis as a base part of the class? That would prevent the stats min-maxing and you still could have a feat that allows you to get the option you didn't choose?
I feel like one thing that isn;t being mentioned at all with synthesis is its use in exploration.
As far as I can see, when you become your eidolon, you gain their speeds and evolutions. So at higher levels you could merge with them to swim, fly, climb, gain darkvision and/or be large/huge, potentially carrying other allies. This seems absolutely fantastic in games with a lot of focus on exploration and terrain.
Is it possible the feat is partly meant to be of more use outside of combat?
It can do all that without synthesis: all it does is remove a single character from the equation. The eidolon is intelligent so it can communicate anything it senses. Unless it's big enough to carry every party member at once, you're still ferrying people back and forth and if it is big enough, the summoner most likely isn't going to tip the scales by being there. In fact, Transpose the eidolon speeds up ferrying up to 100'.
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When you activate Synthesis, you should get to choose Boost or Reinforce as a permanent bonus until you un-synthesize. With that it'd be a reasonable exchange for the extra protection.
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Synthesis just doesn't give you anything as noted above. You lose action economy. You lose spell casting. You lose the tactical advantage of having a second body on the field for flanking etc...
Proposed improvement: Grant a free casting of Eidolon Boost or Reinforce Eidolon while Synthesized. This gives you back your Action economy in a way, and side steps the issue with your Synthesized form being arbitrarily Worse than your standalone Eidolon under either cantrips effects.
Even doing that, there really isn't a good reason to synth vs. just summoning the eidolon. Maybe throw in some Temp HP?
it can explore by itself, but utility wise, if you wear it like a suit, you also get those benefits, like flying away, climbing, swimmig, etc
For a 1st level feat it's decent utlity to be able to use his scores and abilities while it carries you... it just isn't what people expected from synthesist (a monster combat form)
Yeah... If I'm a small summoner or take HULKING EVOLUTION with a medium one, I can just jump on it's back and fly/climb/swim there. As for "it can explore by itself", can it? It's most likely less able to go off on it's own than a rogue and it's extremely ill advised even for them. If it's about group exploration, IMO it doesn't seem to make much difference.
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Which is?
I am ignoring a big chunk of the advantage of this feat.
You can summon a Construct Eidolon and climb into it.
Pathfinder has mechs.
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When you activate Synthesis, you should get to choose Boost or Reinforce as a permanent bonus until you un-synthesize. With that it'd be a reasonable exchange for the extra protection.
This still prohibits you from Evolution Surge, which I think is a huge part of how Eidolons work and are balanced. Some solution for that is needed as well.
Being able to auto Boost or Reinforce the synthesized Eidolon and letting you Evolution Surge would hopefully be higher level feats that aren't in this limited scope play test for reasons known only to the design team. I mean the design space is right there for higher level feats upgrading the play style to be more potent (like a Ranger that takes his Animal Companion feat gets feats that make his pet better beyond just the basic mature, nimble/savage, and specialized pet feats).
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I see a simpler solution, just allow them access to all of there abilities, feats, and features while in synthesis mode (with the exception of tandem abilities), but have them use there eidolon's ability scores in place of their own.
Sure you can still cast spells and take other actions, but with your lower mental ability scores those spells are going to be pretty useless for affecting anything other than yourself and your allies.
This largely solves every issue that has been presented so far and is far from overpowering. Loosing out on tendem abilities looks like a serious nerf to the summoners capabilities, so a regular summoner is still better in almost every situation.
Honestly, the best solution I can see is to use the above changes, and then have a high-level feat which makes it so that you can choose to use your own ability scores or your eidolon's when you summon it. That way, you cannot be competent in melee and magic at the same time, but can still ultimately match the relative versatility of the base summoner and play as a monster to boot.
I think I actually like that...
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Being able to auto Boost or Reinforce the synthesized Eidolon and letting you Evolution Surge would hopefully be higher level feats that aren't in this limited scope play test for reasons known only to the design team. I mean the design space is right there for higher level feats upgrading the play style to be more potent (like a Ranger that takes his Animal Companion feat gets feats that make his pet better beyond just the basic mature, nimble/savage, and specialized pet feats).
I could see that for Evolution Surge, though it'd need to be decently low level. But Boost Eidolon is pretty fundamental to the math and you shouldn't need Feats for it.
And being high level doesn't make them 'outside the scope'. The Playtest goes through 20th level.
I see a simpler solution, just allow them access to all of there abilities, feats, and features while in synthesis mode (with the exception of tandem abilities), but have them use there eidolon's ability scores in place of their own.
Sure you can still cast spells and take other actions, but with your lower mental ability scores those spells are going to be pretty useless for affecting anything other than yourself and your allies.
This largely solves every issue that has been presented so far and is far from overpowering. Loosing out on tendem abilities looks like a serious nerf to the summoners capabilities, so a regular summoner is still better in almost every situation.
Honestly, the best solution I can see is to use the above changes, and then have a high-level feat which makes it so that you can choose to use your own ability scores or your eidolon's when you summon it. That way, you cannot be competent in melee and magic at the same time, but can still ultimately match the relative versatility of the base summoner and play as a monster to boot.
I'd be on board with that. It might be overpowered, but then again, maybe not.
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On the surface, this seems pretty reasonable. Because at least you could still use reactions and skill feats you pick up. But I do worry it might be too much. So hard to tell..I see a simpler solution, just allow them access to all of there abilities, feats, and features while in synthesis mode (with the exception of tandem abilities), but have them use there eidolon's ability scores in place of their own.
Sure you can still cast spells and take other actions, but with your lower mental ability scores those spells are going to be pretty useless for affecting anything other than yourself and your allies.
This largely solves every issue that has been presented so far and is far from overpowering. Loosing out on tendem abilities looks like a serious nerf to the summoners capabilities, so a regular summoner is still better in almost every situation.
Honestly, the best solution I can see is to use the above changes, and then have a high-level feat which makes it so that you can choose to use your own ability scores or your eidolon's when you summon it. That way, you cannot be competent in melee and magic at the same time, but can still ultimately match the relative versatility of the base summoner and play as a monster to boot.
It gives you melee-level protection at the cost of a good chunk of your ability to cast spell and a good part of your action economy. Even for a 1st level feat it doesn't seems that powerful and this version would actually work for someone who just want to play the eidolon...
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Early on the synthesis options probably best use is giving you full access to movement/environmental/and vision boosts. So if your eidolon is amphibious or has extra vision options this feat makes you a pretty good scout or travel form or night time sentry without constantly trying to share senses with your eidolon.
just make a buffer summoner.
16dex, 16con, 12 cha, you already max at master spell casting, take spells that dont require saves or to hit. buff yourself/others/your eidolon, when thats done, merge and attack.
seems pretty simple use of this ability.
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just make a buffer summoner.
16dex, 16con, 12 cha, you already max at master spell casting, take spells that dont require saves or to hit. buff yourself/others/your eidolon, when thats done, merge and attack.
seems pretty simple use of this ability.
Make a buffing summoner? Using what spell slots?
Also, you are going to be spending 2-3 turns on this. Manifesting your Eidolon is 3 actions. Assuming you begin combat with the Eidolon manifested separately from you, you can spend a few turns doing Nothing really beneficial to your team, then spend another entire turn to Manifest your Eidolon with Synthesis to THEN finally be able to contribute to the fight.
So 3rd turn you get to do something. Yeah, not a great trade when you could have instead had your Eidolon just run forward and attack Exactly as effectively as you could in your Synth form. You even have an "extra" action to move or do something with while separate.
just make a buffer summoner.
16dex, 16con, 12 cha, you already max at master spell casting, take spells that dont require saves or to hit. buff yourself/others/your eidolon, when thats done, merge and attack.
seems pretty simple use of this ability.
Make a buffing summoner? Using what spell slots?
Also, you are going to be spending 2-3 turns on this. Manifesting your Eidolon is 3 actions. Assuming you begin combat with the Eidolon manifested separately from you, you can spend a few turns doing Nothing really beneficial to your team, then spend another entire turn to Manifest your Eidolon with Synthesis to THEN finally be able to contribute to the fight.
So 3rd turn you get to do something. Yeah, not a great trade when you could have instead had your Eidolon just run forward and attack Exactly as effectively as you could in your Synth form. You even have an "extra" action to move or do something with while separate.
you only need to summon your eidolon if you had cause to unsummon him, otherwise hes always out. so its only worst case scenario.
you do have spell slots, even from level 1. a magic fang on your eidolon isnt a bad idea as example.
the idea is when you are done buffing, if things are still going on, you can merge with it and not worry about being two targets, sinc eyou wont be casting spells at that point anyways.
and this extra action is funny, its not really an extra action in terms of giving you more, rather it puts you up to par. since you still share map. it only matters when you are say..*buffing* as i said.
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I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue. In that vein, as well as being a fair bit more defensive than having one squishy mage body to worry about, it's a useful, potentially very useful tool in the toolbox. Which is, to be fair, what a first-level feat is meant to be. Not even the humaniest of Wild Druids has a combat form at first level, and they certainly don't have the option to battle-buddy with that combat form like the Summoner does. That's the reward for not having so many spells, of course, but we're already starting out with a flexible four-action turn when out of synthesis and significant sturdiness when in it, so I'm not sure that more is an option until later down the line.
Obviously some feat progression to allow players to Be The Monster would be nice down the line, and that's important feedback, but I'm not sure about the immediate backlash that the feat is getting. It could be genuinely useful, just not for the stuff that you might expect from something sharing a name and general vibe with The Monster from PF1. Which is maybe a reason not to call it Synthesis, to be fair, but I digress.
As to what such a feat progression might entail, casting conduit spells is obviously a must; maybe even a feat to auto-cast a lower-level buff spell as you enter the form, but maintaining the inability to cast much otherwise. It might also be better just to be a class archetype that trades out the usual summoning so we can loosen up the restrictions a bit, but I'd like the ability to trade feats from either direction to get to a place that can do both by late levels (albeit not quite as well as a specialist in one path over the other).
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just make a buffer summoner.
16dex, 16con, 12 cha, you already max at master spell casting, take spells that dont require saves or to hit. buff yourself/others/your eidolon, when thats done, merge and attack.
seems pretty simple use of this ability.
Make a buffing summoner? Using what spell slots?
Also, you are going to be spending 2-3 turns on this. Manifesting your Eidolon is 3 actions. Assuming you begin combat with the Eidolon manifested separately from you, you can spend a few turns doing Nothing really beneficial to your team, then spend another entire turn to Manifest your Eidolon with Synthesis to THEN finally be able to contribute to the fight.
So 3rd turn you get to do something. Yeah, not a great trade when you could have instead had your Eidolon just run forward and attack Exactly as effectively as you could in your Synth form. You even have an "extra" action to move or do something with while separate.
you only need to summon your eidolon if you had cause to unsummon him, otherwise hes always out. so its only worst case scenario.
you do have spell slots, even from level 1. a magic fang on your eidolon isnt a bad idea as example.
the idea is when you are done buffing, if things are still going on, you can merge with it and not worry about being two targets, sinc eyou wont be casting spells at that point anyways.
and this extra action is funny, its not really an extra action in terms of giving you more, rather it puts you up to par. since you still share map. it only matters when you are say..*buffing* as i said.
You do realize that Manifesting your Eidolon is 3 actions. You have to Manifest your Eidolon to Synthesize with it. You can't cast if you are Synthesized. Yes, you can Manifest your Eidolon while it's already Manifested, so you could Synth with it whether it's "out" or not. But you can't get around dumping a turn into Synthing no matter what you do.
So you are 2 turns away from contributing to a fight, more depending on distance.
You have 4 Total Spell slots to play with for buffs. Magic Fang is only an attractive option if you as a player are not keeping up with potency runes on your own weapon, since your Eidolon inherits those.
The only real "buff" that you could be talking about is Boost/Reinforce Eidolon... but you can't use those while synthesized, and they have a 1 round duration.
Unless you mean something like Bless? Mage Armor? Stone Skin? All things probably better left to other classes to focus on? Classes that have more than 4 total spell slots to play with? (Discounting any spell slots gained by your Eidolon through feats, though if you go that route there is really no reason to Synthesize. Again, Act Together is just too good to trade for... nothing.)
Edit: Oh, do you mean any buff that requires Sustaining? Because you can't sustain spells while Synthesized either. Tell me what buffing spells you think have the duration, and the value, to justify this play style. Magic Fang, sure. Assuming you don't decide to just upgrade a weapon and gain those benefits full time, without sacrificing multiple spell slots to keeping that up.
And have fun convincing the rest of your part to take a long rest when you tap out your slots while "buffing" after each battle. They'll all pretty much be ready to go after a brief rest, and you'll be grabbing your pillow ready for your third 8 hour rest in 30 hours.
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you only need to summon your eidolon if you had cause to unsummon him, otherwise hes always out.
I wouldn't say that's true: you can only spend an action a round in exploration so if you have it out, the only thing you're doing is Act Together to move along. If you unsummon it, you can actually use another activity.
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I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue. In that vein, as well as being a fair bit more defensive than having one squishy mage body to worry about, it's a useful, potentially very useful tool in the toolbox. Which is, to be fair, what a first-level feat is meant to be.
And this is why it shouldn't be a feat in the first place. People from 1E expect the synthesis to be a fighting option. It's the exact same problem as the mutagenist.
you only need to summon your eidolon if you had cause to unsummon him, otherwise hes always out.I wouldn't say that's true: you can only spend an action a round in exploration so if you have it out, the only thing you're doing is Act Together to move along. If you unsummon it, you can actually use another activity.
conversely they are fairly intelligent and it says when you dont spend an action on a summon it acts in accordance with its nature.
as a GM, id argue it would follow you naturally.
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I just wanted to say that even though this feat is a bit of a landmine, I really do hope it stays in and devs make it work as a viable playstyle.
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you only need to summon your eidolon if you had cause to unsummon him, otherwise hes always out.I wouldn't say that's true: you can only spend an action a round in exploration so if you have it out, the only thing you're doing is Act Together to move along. If you unsummon it, you can actually use another activity.conversely they are fairly intelligent and it says when you dont spend an action on a summon it acts in accordance with its nature.
as a GM, id argue it would follow you naturally.
Yeah, but "Your eidolon is no mere minion; the two of you share the same life force and work together as equals. You and your eidolon share your actions, your Hit Points, and your multiple attack penalty. Each round, you can use any of your actions and reaction for yourself or your eidolon."
It's not about autonomy but actions used: you can only use 1 action/round in exploration without penalty and the summoner and eidolon are a package deal in that regard. Even if the eidolon would use an action on it's own, it's counted against your actions.
Improvising New Activities
"An activity using a quicker pace, corresponding to roughly 20 actions per minute, might have limited use or cause fatigue, as would one requiring intense concentration." You'd have to spend TWO actions to move you both and do something else and that means fatigue or limited use.