I was eagerly waiting for this class to come back and was excited to see the playtest document for it finally.
After a first read-through, I like the concept of having a single pool of HP and having a single pool of actions but I fail to see the appeal to play a summoner over a ranger with an animal companion.
- A ranger has the same HP pool as the summoner.
- With an animal companion, he also gains an extra action (Command an animal vs Act together)
- He and his animal companion are also 2 targets but he gets a separate additional pool of HP.
- The ranger has two targets to heal while the summoner only has one.
- The summoner is two targets on the battlefield for the same HP pool and actions per round
- The summoner and his eidolon have Abysmal AC. No armor and get expert unarmed only at 3rd level (The summoner still is at traiend)
- The summoner gets to use the worse of the two damage rolls or saving rolls of a successful area attack.
- The ranger loses the four spell slot the summoner has.
- The ranger's damage output will be better I think. 1 action to hunt prey and he gets multiple attack bonuses or bonus precise damage. The summoner can use 1 action to get a damage bonus to his eidolon but he must use 1 action every round.
- Don't see the mechanical benefits of Synthesis
Playtesting it will see what are the Summoner true values. Off the bat, I would add the eidolon's CON modifier to HP as well as the summoner's (Eidolon Con affects only Fort save right now) and I would use the best saving throw results when both are targeted by an area attack.
Picaboo32 wrote: - With an animal companion, he also gains an extra action (Command an animal vs Act together) Act Together trades 1 action for 2 actions, for the same net result as Command an Animal.
The Summoner gets to be one character that's in two places at once. This is an advantage and a vulnerability for melee combat. I think the Summoner will likely want to stay out of melee range to mitigate exposure. The permanent misfortune effect on any AoE attack is very dangerous, too.
I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. My initial impression is that having a dragon pet is cool beans, but that's an entirely non-mechanical consideration.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Uh, so, just straight off -
An Eidolon gets martial level proficiencies with full item bonuses which an animal companion does not.
An Eidolons AC isn't bad at all - at third level, its exactly the same as medium armor for most of the Eidolons life so far as I can see.
Synthesis allows for the character aspect of being physically inept yourself, but being able to drop your spellcasting prowess and assume your eidolons superior physical statline.
Your Eidolon Shares Skill proficiencies (I believe), allowing for you to cover more ground and do a lot of things twice, or remotely...
I dont feel like it's even ballpark comparable to an Animal Companion.
Picaboo32 wrote: After a first read-through, I like the concept of having a single pool of HP and having a single pool of actions but I fail to see the appeal to play a summoner over a ranger with an animal companion. One is a caster the other a martial.
And with Beastmaster Dedication, the Summoner can have both the Animal Companion and the Eidolon.
After a first read, I really love the class. I may even decide to play one.
My only problem with it is that the summoners conduit cantrip's are a bit naff and I couldn't imagine not just multi-classing and grabbing some bard ones instead.
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
siegfriedliner wrote: My only problem with it is that the summoners conduit cantrip's are a bit naff and I couldn't imagine not just multi-classing and grabbing some bard ones instead. That seems valid. I wanted to find a reason to argue this, but couldn't come up with one. If Boost Eidolon were a status bonus to hit (scaling when Heroism does), it would at least have the advantage over Inspiring Courage/Heroism of being free if limited.
That said, in general I consider Inspire Courage/Heroism to be over the top - the reality is that Boost Eidolon is probably where a Cantrip like that should be.
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Honestly the bard archetype seems such a no brainier for this class, the extra spells are great for a class that never gets more than 4 naturally and if you reach 18th level you grab your proficiency bump a level earlier.
A lot of the summoner spells and feats just feel mediocre as if they were just filler.
Also the Eidolon does have worse AC than martials. They only get Master in unarmored at level 19, 6 levels after Monk.
Is the Eidolon more martial than regular casters? Yes. But they are also severely behind the curve specially when considering they share HP with the very frail summoner. Which means twice as many chances of just dying when martials are often dropping during games.
Compare the Eidolon (which can use item bonuses) to an animal companion. For easy comparison, the bear vs the dragon.
The dragon has the following stats at various levels:
At level 1, it has +5, 1d8+3 attacks and 16 AC. At level 5, it has +14, 2d8+4 attacks (+1d6 runes) and 24 AC. At 10, it has +20, 2d8+7 attacks (+2d6 runes) and 29 AC. At 15, it has +28, 3d8+11 attacks (+2d6 runes) and 36 AC. At 20 it has +34, 4d8+11 attacks (+4d6 runes) and 44 AC.
The bear, in contrast, has (heavy barding until nimble companion, beastmaster progression, ambusher specialization):
At level 1, +5, 1d8+3 attacks and 17 AC. At level 5, it has +11, 2d8+4 attacks and 23 AC. At level 10, +17, 2d8+7 attacks and 29 AC. At level 15, +24, 3d8+9 attacks and 36 AC. At level 20, it has +29, 3d8+9 attacks and 41 AC.
So in general, if you take the absolute best defensive picks for animal companion, you can mostly keep pace. With less defensive focus, the bear would still deal less damage but would fall drastically behind in AC. As is, the bear will do far less damage, and eventually the Eidolon will outscale it. Note that these levels are right after the animal companion gets its main upgrades, so a more nitty gritty look would show the Eidolon typically outperforming this.
The action economy advantage is somewhat a wash, as the Eidolon eventually gets Tandom move for 5 actions per combat.
The damage cantrip is ok i think.
It's +2- +8 damage per attack for 1 action. That seems pretty ok.
Using a comparable 1 action damage cantrip, the Witch one, that is +2 - +6 for 1 action but you can target anyone instead of only your eidolon
For me, the thing that stands out the most with Summoner is action economy.
Tandem actions seem to make him the king of Action economy.
Tandem move->act together->action is 5 total actions per round with just 1 feat required for it. Add Haste in the spelllist and it goes even further.
Something like a Beast eidolon can Charge for 2 strides+1 strike, followed by act together for a buff + 2nd strike, or a Dragon eidolon can act together for buff+stride followed by frenzy for 3 strikes.
And etc
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If you multiclass Rogue, your eidolon will get tons of skill proficiencies.
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Temperans wrote: Also the Eidolon does have worse AC than martials. They only get Master in unarmored at level 19, 6 levels after Monk. Sure, but the same level as...well, anyone who isn't a Monk or Champion. And their AC is really pretty competitive. As compared to, say, a Rogue or Swashbuckler it's behind 2 points at 1st-2nd, equal at 3rd-4th, ahead one at 5th-12th, behind one at 13th-14th, then equal all the way through 20th.
Really, give them Expert in Unarmored from level 1 and I think it's good to go.
Temperans wrote: Is the Eidolon more martial than regular casters? Yes. But they are also severely behind the curve specially when considering they share HP with the very frail summoner. Which means twice as many chances of just dying when martials are often dropping during games. The Summoner is definitely a weak point (and the price they pay for, y'know, being a caster as well), but their offense, defense, and even HP are all very much on par with other martials throughout most of their career as long as nobody targets the Summoner.
This class is amazing.
I wonder how the archetype would work.
Temperans wrote: A lot of the summoner spells and feats just feel mediocre as if they were just filler.
Also the Eidolon does have worse AC than martials. They only get Master in unarmored at level 19, 6 levels after Monk.
Is the Eidolon more martial than regular casters? Yes. But they are also severely behind the curve specially when considering they share HP with the very frail summoner. Which means twice as many chances of just dying when martials are often dropping during games.
Very frail? Am I the only one that noticed that Summoners get the same base HP as Fighters?
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ventnor wrote: Temperans wrote: A lot of the summoner spells and feats just feel mediocre as if they were just filler.
Also the Eidolon does have worse AC than martials. They only get Master in unarmored at level 19, 6 levels after Monk.
Is the Eidolon more martial than regular casters? Yes. But they are also severely behind the curve specially when considering they share HP with the very frail summoner. Which means twice as many chances of just dying when martials are often dropping during games.
Very frail? Am I the only one that noticed that Summoners get the same base HP as Fighters? I hadn't noted that, but hey, sounds like maybe they're on top of that "Summoner is the weak link" thing ;)
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Ventnor wrote: Temperans wrote: A lot of the summoner spells and feats just feel mediocre as if they were just filler.
Also the Eidolon does have worse AC than martials. They only get Master in unarmored at level 19, 6 levels after Monk.
Is the Eidolon more martial than regular casters? Yes. But they are also severely behind the curve specially when considering they share HP with the very frail summoner. Which means twice as many chances of just dying when martials are often dropping during games.
Very frail? Am I the only one that noticed that Summoners get the same base HP as Fighters? Split by 2 though, as you have two fonts for incoming fire.
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Ventnor wrote: Temperans wrote: A lot of the summoner spells and feats just feel mediocre as if they were just filler.
Also the Eidolon does have worse AC than martials. They only get Master in unarmored at level 19, 6 levels after Monk.
Is the Eidolon more martial than regular casters? Yes. But they are also severely behind the curve specially when considering they share HP with the very frail summoner. Which means twice as many chances of just dying when martials are often dropping during games.
Very frail? Am I the only one that noticed that Summoners get the same base HP as Fighters? Frail as in defenses. Unless you are fighting only 1 enemy its very likely for both the Eidolon and Summoner to get attacked. That is twice as much incoming damage as any other character, but the same amount of HP.
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Temperans wrote: Ventnor wrote: Temperans wrote: A lot of the summoner spells and feats just feel mediocre as if they were just filler.
Also the Eidolon does have worse AC than martials. They only get Master in unarmored at level 19, 6 levels after Monk.
Is the Eidolon more martial than regular casters? Yes. But they are also severely behind the curve specially when considering they share HP with the very frail summoner. Which means twice as many chances of just dying when martials are often dropping during games.
Very frail? Am I the only one that noticed that Summoners get the same base HP as Fighters? Frail as in defenses. Unless you are fighting only 1 enemy its very likely for both the Eidolon and Summoner to get attacked. That is twice as much incoming damage as any other character, but the same amount of HP. Not only that but i expect AC will not be very high.
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Temperans wrote: Ventnor wrote: Temperans wrote: A lot of the summoner spells and feats just feel mediocre as if they were just filler.
Also the Eidolon does have worse AC than martials. They only get Master in unarmored at level 19, 6 levels after Monk.
Is the Eidolon more martial than regular casters? Yes. But they are also severely behind the curve specially when considering they share HP with the very frail summoner. Which means twice as many chances of just dying when martials are often dropping during games.
Very frail? Am I the only one that noticed that Summoners get the same base HP as Fighters? Frail as in defenses. Unless you are fighting only 1 enemy its very likely for both the Eidolon and Summoner to get attacked. That is twice as much incoming damage as any other character, but the same amount of HP. but they'll take the same damage as anyone being attacked twice, and the summoner needs to be attacked twice for that to matter....
they're weak to AOEs, and they have twice as much space to be attacked, but they also have twice as much space to be healed or buffed
they only take dmage from AoEs once even if both are hit.
Although without a feat they do use the worst of the 2 saves. On the flip side, with the feat, they basically have "advantage" vs every AoE.
Truthfully, with the way summoners are, i see no reason for them to wade into melee either way.
Pronate11 wrote: Temperans wrote: Ventnor wrote: Temperans wrote: A lot of the summoner spells and feats just feel mediocre as if they were just filler.
Also the Eidolon does have worse AC than martials. They only get Master in unarmored at level 19, 6 levels after Monk.
Is the Eidolon more martial than regular casters? Yes. But they are also severely behind the curve specially when considering they share HP with the very frail summoner. Which means twice as many chances of just dying when martials are often dropping during games.
Very frail? Am I the only one that noticed that Summoners get the same base HP as Fighters? Frail as in defenses. Unless you are fighting only 1 enemy its very likely for both the Eidolon and Summoner to get attacked. That is twice as much incoming damage as any other character, but the same amount of HP. but they'll take the same damage as anyone being attacked twice, and the summoner needs to be attacked twice for that to matter....
they're weak to AOEs, and they have twice as much space to be attacked, but they also have twice as much space to be healed or buffed (And it's worth noting, they don't take damage from AoEs twice, they're just effectively rolling twice and taking the worse if they both get caught in it.)
QuidEst wrote: Pronate11 wrote: Temperans wrote: Ventnor wrote: Temperans wrote: A lot of the summoner spells and feats just feel mediocre as if they were just filler.
Also the Eidolon does have worse AC than martials. They only get Master in unarmored at level 19, 6 levels after Monk.
Is the Eidolon more martial than regular casters? Yes. But they are also severely behind the curve specially when considering they share HP with the very frail summoner. Which means twice as many chances of just dying when martials are often dropping during games.
Very frail? Am I the only one that noticed that Summoners get the same base HP as Fighters? Frail as in defenses. Unless you are fighting only 1 enemy its very likely for both the Eidolon and Summoner to get attacked. That is twice as much incoming damage as any other character, but the same amount of HP. but they'll take the same damage as anyone being attacked twice, and the summoner needs to be attacked twice for that to matter....
they're weak to AOEs, and they have twice as much space to be attacked, but they also have twice as much space to be healed or buffed (And it's worth noting, they don't take damage from AoEs twice, they're just effectively rolling twice and taking the worse if they both get caught in it.) it's kinda funny how one feat switches Disadvantage to advantage without first going into the in-between state of "neither advantage nor disadvantage"
They can only use the feat once since its a reaction. Which means they cant use any of other reactions the might grab. Its effectively a feat tax not dying.
Also its not unreasonable to attack the summoner which has really bad defenses. Which means high chance of getting crit. Having 2 bodies that share HP in a game where enemies can crit very well is really bad.
If it were Life Link and the Summoner could pass HP as needed it wouldnt be as problematic.
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how many aoes you suffer each round? i dont see it as a tax, since you dont even need to be close to the eidolon as a summoner for most of the time.
plus, the "only taking damage/effects once per aoe" does limit the potential insta gibbing from an aoe by itself (in effect you only have disadvantage on the save)
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I'm a little concerned about the slow spellcasting proficiency. What kind of spells would you recommend taking on the Summoner? I imagine saving throw spells would be pretty blah, but maybe they'd be decent buffers? I'm just not sure what you do with 4 spells a day.
Also as an aside, because of the slow proficiency progression, the dragon's breath seems pretty bad.
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Capn Cupcake wrote: I'm a little concerned about the slow spellcasting proficiency. What kind of spells would you recommend taking on the Summoner? I imagine saving throw spells would be pretty blah, but maybe they'd be decent buffers? I'm just not sure what you do with 4 spells a day.
Also as an aside, because of the slow proficiency progression, the dragon's breath seems pretty bad.
Oh yikes, yeah. That needs to be changed on the dragon breath. It's fine for summoners to have poor DC and spell attack rolls I feel, but that save needs to advance better - the eidolon is the one good at hurting things.
Summoner's casting is literally warpriest, except with fewer slots. They should probably allow them slightly more slots for buff spells since there are very few useful cantrips to them in a fight. Possibly add two slots of three levels under cap, or a feat similar to Magus's Martial Casting, or something. It's a good limitation on their output it just seems like it might be TOO constricting.
The disadvantage on aoe saves is probably fine, since spacing out negates it, but might need another pass for negative conditions. Disadvantage against something that confuses or controls or something is bad.
Eidolons being basically full martials (just with limited combat tricks) goes a long way to ensuring combat viability.
I'm wondering what the Archetypes for these new classes are going to be like.
Summoner with Magus Archetype could work out quite well if you can combine Magus Potency Battle Spell and the 6th level Magus feat Martial Caster.
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First thought: I am going to miss the flexibility of Eidolons
The PF1 Eidolon was basically a big box of legos with a 'build your own pet' note on top of it
the Unchained Eidolon had a bit more direction but was largely the same and more individual flavor
now the Eidolons all basically are the same action figure with a different paintjob and different add-ons and only very limited flexiblity via class feats
Seisho wrote: First thought: I am going to miss the flexibility of Eidolons
The PF1 Eidolon was basically a big box of legos with a 'build your own pet' note on top of it
the Unchained Eidolon had a bit more direction but was largely the same and more individual flavor
now the Eidolons all basically are the same action figure with a different paintjob and different add-ons and only very limited flexiblity via class feats
Well, I feel like a lot of the build toolbox was in picking all the different natural weapons. That part hasn't changed, they've just simplified it.
I would like to see the return of some of the other options, like energy attacks (which, yes, they benefit from property runes, but those are later and not quite thematically the same). The lack of the grapple trait on the "Add a trait to your unarmed" is unfortunate, and disarm is utterly awful. I'd like to see maybe Sweep and Grapple added to that list?
At current though my biggest concern is that the limited spell slots are more painful for summoner than magus, because summoner is going to be relatively bad with attack cantrips. It definitely needs playtesting and probably needs a dedicated answer on the playtest form.
Seisho wrote: First thought: I am going to miss the flexibility of Eidolons
The PF1 Eidolon was basically a big box of legos with a 'build your own pet' note on top of it
the Unchained Eidolon had a bit more direction but was largely the same and more individual flavor
now the Eidolons all basically are the same action figure with a different paintjob and different add-ons and only very limited flexiblity via class feats
Its like they regressed Eidolons from being awesome unique characters to mass-produced marionets.
Dubious Scholar wrote: At current though my biggest concern is that the limited spell slots are more painful for summoner than magus, because summoner is going to be relatively bad with attack cantrips. It definitely needs playtesting and probably needs a dedicated answer on the playtest form. I disagree. Summoner's attack cantrips is their eidolon basically.
Charlesfire wrote: Dubious Scholar wrote: At current though my biggest concern is that the limited spell slots are more painful for summoner than magus, because summoner is going to be relatively bad with attack cantrips. It definitely needs playtesting and probably needs a dedicated answer on the playtest form. I disagree. Summoner's attack cantrips is their eidolon basically. Er, yes. That's the point - they're not really going to make use of attack cantrips, but that's the majority of cantrips there.
Is anyone else disappointed that this class doesn't do a whole lot for actual summon spells? Like, personally, I'd be willing to have a subclass that gives up the eidolon for improved summons type stuff.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
TheCalicoKid wrote: Is anyone else disappointed that this class doesn't do a whole lot for actual summon spells? Like, personally, I'd be willing to have a subclass that gives up the eidolon for improved summons type stuff. There are several feats that trigger action advantages or advantageous effects when you cast Summon Spells. I assume there will be more in the release version, but they are there and they aren't terrible.
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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
TheCalicoKid wrote: Is anyone else disappointed that this class doesn't do a whole lot for actual summon spells? Like, personally, I'd be willing to have a subclass that gives up the eidolon for improved summons type stuff. I suggested to put up 3 options - Synthesis, Summon monster, Eidolon.. as variant summoner sublcasses. I think they should really look into this.
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Disadvantage on saves that hit both of you is pretty rough, and not what I would have expected from how the rest of the class feels. I would have thought you roll once, and use that die result for both saves.
Overall, though, the class looks cool and I want to try one.
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Vallarthis wrote: Disadvantage on saves that hit both of you is pretty rough, and not what I would have expected from how the rest of the class feels. I would have thought you roll once, and use that die result for both saves.
Overall, though, the class looks cool and I want to try one.
I would greatly prefer if it was "roll once", even if it was roll once with the worse of the two bonuses.
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