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What do I want in a Shifter? I'd like:
- In a word, Versatile. Lean on nature's ability to adapt to changing environments
- Non-magical
- Partial Shifting for both utility and attack (cat ears for increased perception, crocodile jaws for bite with grab, hooves for increased speed, etc).
- Full wild-shape type of abilities
- Able to comune with, or somehow interact with the Four Wardens
- Martial attack progression with natural weapons and simple weapons
- Unarmored, but some way to increase AC through hardened scales or thick fur so that mechanically they keep up with Monks
Shifter is a class I'd love to see in PF2e. The reason stories told by Grandmother are fantastic and shoe nature's ability to overcome by adaptation (little elephant and happy butterfly are two favorites). Seeing those stories gives me hope we could see a well done Shifter in the near future.
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I don't know if that is a viable solution, but could the shifter have their subclasses be based on the Wardens? That way you could play a shifter of oceans and rivers (presumably focused on aquatic creatures and amphibians) or a shifter of forests and meadows (focused on land-based creatures that live above ground). That would be your primary focus. Overlap could still happen ofc, e.g. like the psychic can pilfer some spells off other conscious minds via Parallel Breakthrough.
2e tries not to be too specific with its options wherever possible to give a maximum of freedom. This seems like a good idea on that front and also would give us a lore connection like the characters themselves would have.
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In matters of versatility, I'd like it to be a matter of choice. If I just want to focus on living my best life as a bear, I could specialize, but if I wanted to be a generalist, I could do that too.
I think the real issue with the shifter in PF2 is how to make it meaningfully and interestingly distinct from an animal instinct barbarian.Personally what I'd want to see out of it would be relatively unlimited shifting into 'relatively minor' (i.e. non-combat, not encounter-breaking, but a wide range of) forms. Which would make it very distinct from both the bar and current wild druid, and more of a shifting-to-scout archetype rather than a My-Other-Beatdown-Is-A-TRex archetype. The question is how to do that without making the base ability crazy powerful in non-combat situations, because it easily could be.
I think having your mechanics riding on your shapeshifting rather than rage is already plenty. Rage has a very strong mechanical and narrative impact, so if you didn't have that and all the abilities that build off of it, it would already be a different class.
On top of that, you have Raging Resistance, which would not be present in many shifters (most animals and many beasts don't have any resistances). 12 HP also isn't strictly necessary. Neither is proficiency in light/medium armor or martial weapon proficiency (which, while usually unused, the animal barb still has).
So really, the commonalities are focus on unarmored & unarmed combat, morph abilities and being animal-related. Which the wild druid also does and to some extent the monk. Given that you can rip out all of the above and replace them with something else, I think there is enough to work with. For example, having a solid lineup of base proficiencies and being able to enhance certain aspects via focus spells like the ranger can.
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Concerning your idea, having such a heavy focus on non-combat powers simply doesn't work on its own. Especially when it comes at the price of combat ability. Combat is an essential element of the game and one where the classes often differ most. So if a class is bad at it, that is a problem that people will quickly notice and dislike. As happened with the Investigator.
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The thing I want from the Shifter is the ability to be very tanky. If you're literally in control of changing your entire body, you should be pretty good at shrugging off/avoiding damage. This would meaningfully differentiate it from like the Wild Order druid, and also from the Champion/Monk due to thematics.
The Warden was my favorite D&D4 class.
Personally, I'd like to see the Shifter have the ability to stay in a Battle Form for an hour, not a minute like the Druid, without having to spend a feat on it. Also, 10 HP. Finally, I'd like to see a more combat oriented feat list.
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I'd like to see the Shifter lean away from its druidic roots and become more generic.
The "why would we need this class when Druids exist" concern early in this thread was exactly its complaint and biggest problem in PF1 too. So stop being a druid, there's so much more to shapeshifting.
As for mechanics, I'd like to see them emphasize modularity to a degree. Give them evolution feat style abilities that allow them to graft abilities onto forms that normally don't have. The shifter should be good at customizing what they turn into.
Some feats for rapid shifting, even enabling and encouraging changing shapes mid combat would be cool.
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If a Shifter can't eventually successfully pretend to be another creature type entirely, I don't think it's doing enough. If I invest in turning into a dragon, I want to be able to use just enough magic to sell that lie better than a Druid who's locked out of casting in that form. If I invest in turning into other people, I want a flexible ancestry feat (subject to reasonable limitations) or something like that. Gimme some stuff that would be too flexible to give a caster.
Shifters I think should be versatile. I think it should be the class that lrts you double down on being able to shift into one animal/creature and that being relevant throughout your leveling up, but it should also be able to allow for those who want to be able to seitch between forms easily. And even those who like to only morph certain parts of the form or make chimeras where you bring features from other creatures on to a base form.
I think subclasses can be based on creature types. So you can have a shifter focused on humanoids and be great for intrigue games, you can have the traditional animal shifters, but then also have abberation shifters and other types. I think the class should have order explorer esque feats so that you can build a catalogue of creature types you want to use. Other feats would be how you build the versatility and options you can use in combat or for utility, with some options that dont increase the type of shifting you can do but give cool attack options that you can use in whatever form so those that want to like just shift into a bear and have options that just make them fight really good as a bear.
Anyone feel like shifter could work as an archetype, maybe in a recently announced book? Thinking about it, I dunno I think it might fit better as an archetype. Maybe you're a monk who grows tiger claws and bat wings, a ranger who fires their own quills at enemies, or a champion who leaps to their allies aid with friggin rabbit legs, I dunno.
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Anyone feel like shifter could work as an archetype, maybe in a recently announced book? Thinking about it, I dunno I think it might fit better as an archetype. Maybe you're a monk who grows tiger claws and bat wings, a ranger who fires their own quills at enemies, or a champion who leaps to their allies aid with friggin rabbit legs, I dunno.
That is not even close to encompassing even a fraction of the design space that Shifter could and should fulfill. This is like saying we don't need full spellcasters because people can pick up Focus Spells.
Okay fair enough. I admit the only shifter thing I really liked enough to research was adaptive shifter, so I'm not very well versed on the class. It *seemed* like it was a little one dimensional, but I'm sure there's aspects I missed out on.
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Effective combat ability that makes them competitive as a damage dealer and martial without having to jump through hoops that can make that hard.
Okay fair enough. I admit the only shifter thing I really liked enough to research was adaptive shifter, so I'm not very well versed on the class. It *seemed* like it was a little one dimensional, but I'm sure there's aspects I missed out on.You're not wrong. 1e Shifter is really one-dimensional without the archetypes. People like the class concept but hated the execution.
It's definitely as awesome concept. Shape changing is one of my favorite concepts. But yeah what I remember it was just a full bab class with wild shaping, but little else (except adaptive shifter from what I remember, which was very fun and unique). That being said I have a terrible memory, never even played 1st edition outside of the video games (though I've listened to a good amount of actual plays), and I think if I compared 1e versions of a lot of classes to their 2e version the 1e version would feel pretty stale.
I've also been one of the players who was told by others to just play an elemental sorc, we don't need kineticist, they're the same thing, which was upsetting. I definitely don't want to be that person. I was just bringing up the idea to see what people thought
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If a shifter has focus spells it should not be the core hinge of the class. Focus spells always add some sort of utility but they are never the main thing for martials. Like the closest to that I can think of are like conflux spells and there are still alternatives to using them. So the core shifting mechanic should not use focus points. This is important because martials genuinely are built around being able to do their main thing whenever they need it.
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IMHO a class should emulate a particular fantasy trope character, and so I would see a shifter as being a class that double downs on shape-shifting, with different specialities chosen at the start. So there should be no spell-casting at all, other than maybe a focus-pool type system for certain effects. Instead the character should be able to change form as often and as much they want. They should absolutely be better at this than druids, at the cost of not being as flexible since they don't have the spell-list and such.
I'd have different specializations. Maybe you have a generalized beast form shifter, who gains the ability to shift into different specific animals, probably a small number of selections at start which then increases as a character levels. Definitely be tanks in combat but would have the flexibility in that players could pick other forms that might be useful for different environments or purposes, like spying or scouting.
Another form would be a humanoid shifter. Someone who can basically take the form of other people. Would be more of a skill monkey-esq character, that could maybe modify there physical stats daily or gain the ability to borrow abilities from other classes.
Other options could be more focused shifters, which can only turn into one beast, but you invest your energy into making that beast more and more powerful over time. Or people who can mutate and only partially shift there form, or maybe have ooze like properties, or take the forms of dragons. Lots of ways to go, although I am also not entirely sure all of these ideas could fit in a single set of rules for one class.
If a shifter has focus spells it should not be the core hinge of the class. Focus spells always add some sort of utility but they are never the main thing for martials. Like the closest to that I can think of are like conflux spells and there are still alternatives to using them. So the core shifting mechanic should not use focus points. This is important because martials genuinely are built around being able to do their main thing whenever they need it.
Here's an idea:
Different polymorph and morph effects don't use focus points, but you instead use focus points to activate various specific abilities of given polymorphs/morphs, like Dragon Breath for a dragon form.
There's a design space for more martials that toy with resources a bit more. Martials aren't inherently resource-less and sticking to an always-on design philosophy is rather limiting and excludes a wide variety of potential concepts.
Yeah thats perfectly fine. I dont mind giving martials resources, i like resources or toggling on abilities. Thats one reason i like thuamaturges and swashbucklers a lot.
But I think currently there is only one class whose main sthick is timegated, and thats Barbarian and something ive seen some debate over is barbarian being time gated. If focus points were the main sthick of a martial that martial will have a time gate over 10x the existing time gate for a martials main sthick. I know people will probably say well just refocus, but from my experience getting 10 minuites is frequent but not a gurantee
I mean if your GM wants to stop you from using your mechanics, there's not much anyone can do about it. I'm not sure that's something the game as a whole really needs to worry about though, since that's a table thing.
Thats a bit of disingenious way of putting what I said. Its not a matter of dms not letting me use class features, it is oftrn narrative weight that the group as a whole decides upon what to do, and it can be quite fulfilling. The choice between given yourself the time to patch yourself up, or stay on the move because you are in a dangerous location or you know the person you are trying to save doesnt have a lot of time.
Your comment doesnt really address the actual concern I mentioned. Casters have spell slots and cantrips, martials are usually built around certain class features that they can access for the most part as needed. Focus Points are a poor thing to build a martial class around both because of the extended time gate but you will literally lose the chance to use your main feature as the adventuring day goes on, unless they also got a built in regain 2 or 3 focus points when you refocus mechanic. Said martial will either need that mechanic or need a lot of smaller things they can call upon, if their main sthick is limited to that degree.
Edit: calling it disingenious might have been a step too far. I did feel like you read a negative connotation into my comment but that doesnt mean it was not a genuine interpetation.
If a shifter has focus spells it should not be the core hinge of the class. Focus spells always add some sort of utility but they are never the main thing for martials. Like the closest to that I can think of are like conflux spells and there are still alternatives to using them. So the core shifting mechanic should not use focus points. This is important because martials genuinely are built around being able to do their main thing whenever they need it.
I'd be very, very surprised if the shifter's core shifting mechanics weren't related to Change Shape, i.e. using an action to polymorph until you want a different form. No time limit. Probably the same for morph effects as well. It's the only thing that makes sense when your core fantasy is shapeshifting.
An alternative to this should better be damn good and I find that unlikely.
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I just want wider flavor. “A Druid, but without spells” is a mechanical chassis that interests me more than the caster version, but that sort of classic nature and wilderness vibe has never done much for me. Open a Shifter up to being someone who drank out of the big ooze pond in Nex or was blessed by a Protean’s touch and I’m much more interested.
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I just want wider flavor. “A Druid, but without spells” is a mechanical chassis that interests me more than the caster version, but that sort of classic nature and wilderness vibe has never done much for me. Open a Shifter up to being someone who drank out of the big ooze pond in Nex or was blessed by a Protean’s touch and I’m much more interested.
Yeah, in 1e they were basically martial druids, even speaking druidic, which I never really liked. The iconic Shifter never interacted with any Druid stuff, rather developing her power on her own. If/When it's brought over to 2e I hope it's opened to a wider range of flavour, ideally without spellcasting.
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Honestly, they should leave the PF1 version in PF1.
Complete rebuild from scratch, avoiding the inflexible gamist nature of the OGL version behind.
-Shapeshifting like the Ancestries that get it from L1.
-Combat similar to Monk, but 'Flurry' applying to natural weapons including things like quills/spitting/tongue etc.
-Limited casting capacity with options to boost.
-Unarmored proficiency Expert (like Monk)
-Stances to boost various forms shifted into.
-Expert Perception @L3
Just spitballing.
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Have to ask, but did anyone like the druidic aspect? Or even hear of someone that strongly enjoyed it? At best I've met people who didn't dislike it, but that's hardly a strong endorsement.
For myself, I'd prefer if shifters were narratively closer to Synthecist Summoners, able to embody a single base form but also able to pick up abilities to modify that form at whim. I had a positive play experience with my playtest summoner, using a kobold dragon-summoner to make a "weredragon" shifter, and would love to see a class that made that concept viable.
I'd also use the change shape ability to give a minor combat form with augmented unarmed attacks and senses, probably with something like Evolution Surge letting you add abilities on the fly to that combat form. The ability to have a whole body transformation would be separate and distinct from this minor shifting.
And while I would have preferred a more build-a-summon mechanic on the summoner, I don't think I'd mind them using the same feat based form augmentation on the shifter. That narratively makes more sense to me, though I'll admit being able to more freely change up your shape every day, as if the playtest feat "True Transmorgification" was a baseline ability.
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Open a Shifter up to being someone who drank out of the big ooze pond in Nex or was blessed by a Protean’s touch and I’m much more interested.
Definitely agree. To expand upon the idea, I will say I do not want a Shifter to be seen as the fix for Druids. If Wild Shape needs to be improved that should be handled separately. There is a lot of creative space for a Shifter, they really should steer clear of trampling over the Druid.
I would also like to see most of the Shifter power budget focused on the main act, which is to say no spellcasting. Maybe some focus spells for powerful effects like self healing or a breath weapon.It would be interesting to see the frequency of shape shifting limited rather than the duration. Try to balance the class around being stuck in a particular form until you can shift again, with higher level class feats improving the frequency.
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Open a Shifter up to being someone who drank out of the big ooze pond in Nex or was blessed by a Protean’s touch and I’m much more interested.Definitely agree. To expand upon the idea, I will say I do not want a Shifter to be seen as the fix for Druids. If Wild Shape needs to be improved that should be handled separately. There is a lot of creative space for a Shifter, they really should steer clear of trampling over the Druid.
I would also like to see most of the Shifter power budget focused on the main act, which is to say no spellcasting. Maybe some focus spells for powerful effects like self healing or a breath weapon.
It would be interesting to see the frequency of shape shifting limited rather than the duration. Try to balance the class around being stuck in a particular form until you can shift again, with higher level class feats improving the frequency.
I think balancing all shifting around being stuck in one form would be weird. Just having the action cost to shift every time would be more than enough for your primary form (which I assume we will have). Some passive and active abilities appropriate to that form can just ride on that and that's enough imo. Putting a frequency limitation (e.g. once per round) on stuff like strong special abilities or "extra" shifting that your regular form wouldn't have (e.g. flight on a wolf) is fine and mostly expected where action cost doesn't already solve the problem.
As for steering clear of the druid, that shouldn't be too hard apart from the unavoidable thematic overlap. Wild druids are casters that Wild Shape allows to temporarily play a discount martial at the cost of their normal main feature - spellcasting. They're just currently the only real way to play a shapeshifter, even if their mechanics only partially support it. Just not making the shifter a caster and not making shifting a focus spell would be enough to sidestep that issue. Which I think is more or less the general consensus here?
I think balancing all shifting around being stuck in one form would be weird.
Think of it in terms of goals. A member of the prospective Shifter class at level one has certain capabilities and is striving for more. Are they striving away from their ancestry given form? This might manifest as a duration limited system, where at high levels they could be in an alternate form most or all of the time.
Or are they striving toward mutability? Frame it such that the act of changing one's form is the highest aspiration. I think it has potential for balancing versatility and power in an engaging way. At low levels they would need to be careful about rationing when they shift forms but still have a great deal of flexibility if they choose well. At high levels they would shift rapidly and often, matching their form to the task at hand. Let the class exemplify "stagnation is death".In any case, this is what I would like to see. Maybe it is weird.
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I think balancing all shifting around being stuck in one form would be weird.Think of it in terms of goals. A member of the prospective Shifter class at level one has certain capabilities and is striving for more. Are they striving away from their ancestry given form? This might manifest as a duration limited system, where at high levels they could be in an alternate form most or all of the time.
Or are they striving toward mutability? Frame it such that the act of changing one's form is the highest aspiration. I think it has potential for balancing versatility and power in an engaging way. At low levels they would need to be careful about rationing when they shift forms but still have a great deal of flexibility if they choose well. At high levels they would shift rapidly and often, matching their form to the task at hand. Let the class exemplify "stagnation is death".
In any case, this is what I would like to see. Maybe it is weird.
I don't know if I understand you correctly, but this sounds more like a duration limitation after all. Not "just" a cooldown until you can change again.
I don't think that approach can really work well within the 2e framework. You would have two points you can manipulate - limiting the uptime per "use" (e.g. one use = 10 mins) and limiting the number of uses. Which is how you run head-first into the wall that is Wild Shape, bringing up the druid comparison again. On a more subjective front, I'd also say that it doesn't satisfy the fantasy of playing an actual shapeshifter. Being limited to morph abilities before you get access to the full shift would be less of an issue, but fully time-gating your primary ability? That's neither fun nor particularly balanced - just ask the alchemist (theirs is use-gated, but the end result is the same). Or imagine if a fighter could only "activate" their +2 a limited number of rounds per day. It is either incredibly annoying or almost completely meaningless (at higher levels), so not really an effective balancing tool in this case.
And it is ultimately unnecessary. This is not official, but Mark Seifter's draconic ravager archetype (plus draconic diehard class archetype) shows that the result of having such abilities is within the bounds of the rules. It is a rough approximation, given that this would be a very focused shifter and an archetype to boot, but it is enough in my eyes. There is also the summoner, who dedicates part of their shared budget to the eidolon and existing shapeshifting heritages - both of which don't have the budget of a full class to work with.
Honestly, I think there might be more creative and mechanical space available for "Primal Martial" than there is for "shapechanging person- the class."
Since it's hard, for me at least, to figure out how a Shifter would work at very low levels where battle forms aren't really available and weapons are better than claws, than to just build the martial chassis around things like "eventual shapechanging, primal focus spells, etc."
So I would venture it might be better to lean into the "Primal Martial" angle and away from the "shapeshifting a lot" angle.
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Honestly, I think there might be more creative and mechanical space available for "Primal Martial" than there is for "shapechanging person- the class."
Since it's hard, for me at least, to figure out how a Shifter would work at very low levels where battle forms aren't really available and weapons are better than claws, than to just build the martial chassis around things like "eventual shapechanging, primal focus spells, etc."
So I would venture it might be better to lean into the "Primal Martial" angle and away from the "shapeshifting a lot" angle.
The question here is what does "primal martial" mean to you? Because the name "shifter" (and from my limited knowledge even its... less than stellar earlier incarnation in 1e) pretty much excludes everything that isn't heavily focused on some form of shapeshifting.
Do you mean focusing more on a single combat form that gets improved over the idea of having a myriad of small individual changes? That is what I'd prefer, but from everything I've read so far that type of "myriad shifter" is very popular as well. The end result is probably some sort of variety of choice solution.
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I will say that "oh you pick different specializations and that determines your form" is pretty much what PF1e shifter did, and people dislike that.
I will echo the sentiment that shifter should not be based around wild shape or barbarian's rage. The best possible case is that they get a unique focus spell that allows them to change specific body parts. The feats would then change how that spell works or make it easier to use.
I thought people didnt like pf1e shifter because it didnt really have a ton of core class features, not because they siloed off thematic options were appropriate.
This imo helps with providing a fantasy. If any shifter can easily switch between animal, angels, and undead... that doesnt seem like a cohesive whole but rather a thematic mess, especially for the people who just want to become animals. Or heck the people that want to channel undead but technically know they can become a plant. Having silos that can then be bought back into allows for more thematic and creative control in the hand of the players.
I don't know if I understand you correctly, but this sounds more like a duration limitation after all. Not "just" a cooldown until you can change again.
I am not sure where you are getting this from but you might want to talk to that person instead. We do have two points to manipulate. I specifically expressed interest in manipulating one of those yet you insist that I am dragging the other along with me. As for not satisfying the fantasy of a shapeshifter? What do you see in this fantasy if not shifting one's shape at will?
And it is ultimately unnecessary. This is not official, but Mark Seifter's draconic ravager archetype (plus draconic diehard class archetype) shows that the result of having such abilities is within the bounds of the rules.
There is a lot going on here. What is unnecessary? What do third party materials have to do with being within the bounds of the rules? Are you under the impression that I am severely limiting the power of this prospective Shifter? I have deliberately said very little about concrete power levels. There is a lot of room to set scaling bonuses as the class gains feats and levels. I have only discussed a broad theme I would like to explore and stated a preference to move away from duration limits. To clarify I mean "move away from duration limits" not "secretly also include duration limits".
The time gating complaint hits home. I definitely said that part. Lots of classes are time gated. It works if done well. I think it reasonable to say there should be some manner of constraint placed on low level classes such that they might overcome it later. If we thought about we could even come up with more than your two proposed manipulation points. That might give us a way around a time gate that still shows a character becoming more powerful with experience.
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The problem with the 1e shifter was the features the forms granted had very underwhelming powers and there was basically no point staying with the class post level 5 (I made 3 of the suckers, I'm fairly familiar)
The concept of "turns into a monster/animal and fights as it" was never the issue.
I feel like shifter archetypes were going in the right direction though.
Shifter traditions being "changes in animals vs changes into an ooze vs changes into other planar beings vs changes into dragons" would be a great place to start.
It just needs those shifts to be actually impactful. Developing the strengths those forms impart should in my opinion lean big into the feats element.
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IMO, Shifter needs to compete with Wild Shape Druid, Animal Barbarian, and Ranger w/ Animal Feature, as well as a Summoner melded into their Eidelon is its unlimited potential forms. Maybe add some Sorcerer morph effects, or a customizable approximate effect.
So one track or subclass should develop the Wild Shape chain of feats, with an extra oomph that lifts it from secondary martial to primary. Monstrous feats (much like an Eidelon's) would help there, fleshed out more, i.e. getting Improved Grab (likely as Flourish or Reaction).
Then another subclass would be the "singular fighting shape" that many have wanted from Wild Shape, where the PC fights as say a wolf, and remains a "competitive at level" wolf throughout their career.
The third one would be the were-creature line, with abilities like Wild Morph & Animal Feature, yet more perpetual (or expected in each battle, like Rage). Many superheroes fall under the umbrella, being generally humanoid, but shaping themselves as needed.
Shifter should enable all of these, and be somewhat open to alternate shapes/reskinnnig so a range of monster forms are available (and it's up to the PC to invest in abilities that mirror their creature's). So I can't see limiting this to Primal Martial, not at all. And with Ranger and Barbarian, Primal is the last magical tradition that needs more representation among martials (perhaps alongside Divine).
Other than generic number boosts and access to cool monster feats, I don't know what else to add. One would have to be careful to balance Shifters who access Monk's Flurry & Martial Artist abilities (maybe by giving them similar abilities inherently).
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Honestly, I think there might be more creative and mechanical space available for "Primal Martial" than there is for "shapechanging person- the class."
I mean why not both? They don't have to cover even remotely the same conceptual space.
Like, a fiendish shifter who taps into demonic power to sprout claws and horns and improve their resiliency and a primal warden who surrounds herself in a maelstrom of elemental energy while wielding a heavy weapon to disrupt her foes have... like zero things in common.
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I don't know if I understand you correctly, but this sounds more like a duration limitation after all. Not "just" a cooldown until you can change again.I am not sure where you are getting this from but you might want to talk to that person instead.
I mean...
This might manifest as a duration limited system, where at high levels they could be in an alternate form most or all of the time. [...] At low levels they would need to be careful about rationing when they shift forms but still have a great deal of flexibility if they choose well. At high levels they would shift rapidly and often, matching their form to the task at hand.
I'm sorry, but you literally said that yourself in the first sentence. The other sentences do little to change that impression, though they can be interpreted several different ways.
As for not satisfying the fantasy of a shapeshifter? What do you see in this fantasy if not shifting one's shape at will?
What? You specifically advocated for a system that partially balances via putting timed limitations on shifting. That is the literal opposite of at-will shifting.
And it is ultimately unnecessary. This is not official, but Mark Seifter's draconic ravager archetype (plus draconic diehard class archetype) shows that the result of having such abilities is within the bounds of the rules.There is a lot going on here. What is unnecessary? What do third party materials have to do with being within the bounds of the rules? Are you under the impression that I am severely limiting the power of this prospective Shifter? I have deliberately said very little about concrete power levels. There is a lot of room to set scaling bonuses as the class gains feats and levels. I have only discussed a broad theme I would like to explore and stated a preference to move away from duration limits. To clarify I mean "move away from duration limits" not "secretly also include duration limits".
The time gating complaint hits home. I definitely said that part. Lots of classes are time gated. It works if done well. I think it reasonable to say there should be some manner of constraint placed on low level classes such that they might overcome it later. If we thought about we could even come up with more than your two proposed manipulation points. That might give us a way around a time gate that still shows a character becoming more powerful with experience.
Seifter is one of the principle architects of 2e balance, so I'm confident his input is dependable. Otherwise you can essentially scrap the CRB right now.
As for the rest, I think you have to make your point more clear, especially what you mean with "time duration limit". I don't think we are using the same meaning here. You say that you don't want duration limits, despite literally saying the opposite in your previous post. For me, a "time duration limit" means that when you use an ability, you can enjoy its effect for up to a certain time limit (usually 1 min or 10 min for combat powers). And limiting the number of uses has functionally the same effect, just that you have to ration your full time for the entire day. I think what you are talking about is more what I'd call a "frequency limit" within 2e vocabulary, i.e. if you use an ability, you can't use it (and sometimes also similar abilities) again for X round(s)/minutes/hours/...etc..
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In principle, I think "you start out being able to do a cool thing and get progressively better at it" is always the way to go. All I can think of when I hear "some manner of constraint placed on low level classes" is "you start out being able to do your cool thing, sometimes and later on you can actually do it consistently". I'm sure that isn't your intent, but that comes off as artificial shackles purely for the purpose of making the later result seem better. The rest of the martials have abandoned the whole "you can do [insert feature] x times per day/up to x minutes per day" for everything that is core to the class chassis for a good reason. Because what is the point of playing a class if I can't do their cool thing(s)? Again the comparison to the alchemist and many low-level casters comes to mind. Most miserable thing I ever went through in 2e (low-level alchemist specifically).
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Karmagator, I think what Reyal is advocating is having, say, 4 shifts a day, todo. Possibly even just the 1. And you can stay in that shift for as long as you like at level 1, and shift as often as you like, but once you run out of daily shifts you're stuck in whatever form until your next preparations.
To which I would say...nah.
However, I would find a base form that you can always use and augments to that form being selectable and modable a limited to a certain number of times a day, that might work. There's precedent for that in the fighter and summoner classes, in terms of an additional, unfixed feat that you pick each day. And also the evolution surge focus spell.
That way you can always do a base thing, but also flex your shifting mechanics by being able to be a flying cow or one with an extremely vicious horn attack at need.
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Lots of classes are time gated.
Spellcasters are, but martials generally aren't. The only one with a hard time limit on mechanics (the Barbarian) is also one designed in such a way as to make that mechanic rarely matter.
Even Magi and Summoners, hybrid martial-casters, are built in such a way that they never completely turn off, which is what a Shifter who's out of shapeshifting would be.
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Karmagator, I think what Reyal is advocating is having, say, 4 shifts a day, todo. Possibly even just the 1. And you can stay in that shift for as long as you like at level 1, and shift as often as you like, but once you run out of daily shifts you're stuck in whatever form until your next preparations.
To which I would say...nah.
Having thought about this a little more, the mental picture of shifter stuck as a rabbit because they didn't properly meter out their shifts is kind of hilarious.
Don't think I'd want it as an actual core class ability, but as an optional Unstable-like mechanic where you can get more powerful shifts but also have the potential for blowback forcing you to become a houseplant instead of a shambling mound seems like something to be considered.
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On the matter of strongly themed versus loosely themes shifters, I think there's a pretty straightforward answer.
- Have the shifts that any given character can used be relatively limited in number and purchased individually.
- Have the shifts that you can buy be not so very strongly themed themselves. Like, you can have a tentacle... but it could be a beast tentacle or a plant vine or an aberrant tentacle or whatever else.
So, if your personal idea of how your shifting works is one that can fit in, say, having armored skin, then great. It can be tough hide or scales or whatever. If it can't, then you just don't pick that morph. You pick some other more or less equally useful morph, you adjust your build accordingly, and you haven't really lost anything.
Lets everyone get their theming on just fine without unduly punishing the people who'd prefer to go a bit more free-form, or theme themselves around particularly odd things.
Having thought about this a little more, the mental picture of shifter stuck as a rabbit because they didn't properly meter out their shifts is kind of hilarious.
Don't think I'd want it as an actual core class ability, but as an optional Unstable-like mechanic where you can get more powerful shifts but also have the potential for blowback forcing you to become a houseplant instead of a shambling mound seems like something to be considered.
Yeah - I could totally see that as a focus point replacement... but i wouldn't want it to persist past a ten minute rest. Ten minutes of mild embarrassment actually feels just about right here for having that "sometimes a shift goes wrong" experience without it being unpleasantly punishing.
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Yeah - I could totally see that as a focus point replacement... but i wouldn't want it to persist past a ten minute rest. Ten minutes of mild embarrassment actually feels just about right here for having that "sometimes a shift goes wrong" experience without it being unpleasantly punishing.Having thought about this a little more, the mental picture of shifter stuck as a rabbit because they didn't properly meter out their shifts is kind of hilarious.
Don't think I'd want it as an actual core class ability, but as an optional Unstable-like mechanic where you can get more powerful shifts but also have the potential for blowback forcing you to become a houseplant instead of a shambling mound seems like something to be considered.
Oh yes. I didn't specify that, but I definitely was including the "rest for 10 minutes to reset your balance" in with this proposal.
I'm sorry, but you literally said that yourself in the first sentence. The other sentences do little to change that impression, though they can be interpreted several different ways.
I wrote a lot of things. Maybe it was confusing. In chronological order:
It would be interesting to see the frequency of shape shifting limited rather than the duration. Try to balance the class around being stuck in a particular form until you can shift again, with higher level class feats improving the frequency.
Then you said some stuff that led me to believe I might need to be more clear, but it did look like you were broadly against time gating. Now the tricky part.
Think of it in terms of goals. A member of the prospective Shifter class at level one has certain capabilities and is striving for more. Are they striving away from their ancestry given form? This might manifest as a duration limited system, where at high levels they could be in an alternate form most or all of the time.
Here I briefly discussed the first of our two agreed upon manipulation points. Thematically, this would be a shifter that was trying real hard to stop being defined by their ancestry. In rules, this would mean gaining more duration so they could be something else longer.
Or are they striving toward mutability? Frame it such that the act of changing one's form is the highest aspiration. I think it has potential for balancing versatility and power in an engaging way. At low levels they would need to be careful about rationing when they shift forms but still have a great deal of flexibility if they choose well. At high levels they would shift rapidly and often, matching their form to the task at hand. Let the class exemplify "stagnation is death".
I then went on to discuss the second of our agreed upon manipulation points, frequency. The important parts here are the line break and use of the conjunction "or". This second part is in contrast to the first part, not in conjunction with the first part. Thematically, this would be a shifter who priotized the act of changing one's shape over the state of being in an alternate shape. This priority is not contradicted by the proposed limitations of low level characters. It is meant to be the focus in the sense that it is their goal and is something that improves with training.
What? You specifically advocated for a system that partially balances via putting timed limitations on shifting. That is the literal opposite of at-will shifting.
Very reasonable question. I happen to think building up toward at will shifting at high level is a perfectly valid interpretation of a shapeshifter fantasy. The other part of this is that my frequency limited proposal would not have duration limits. The Druid does not fit my fantasy of a shifter because they can only hold their altered shape for one minute. Being able to hold a shape all day but only being able to change it a few times feels like a valid alternative. Again, these are preliminary ideas and I do not want to get bogged down with power level specifics. It could be three times a day, it could be once per hour, anything really. Just discussing broad themes.
As for the rest, I think you have to make your point more clear, especially what you mean with "time duration limit". I don't think we are using the same meaning here. You say that you don't want duration limits, despite literally saying the opposite in your previous post. For me, a "time duration limit" means that when you use an ability, you can enjoy its effect for up to a certain time limit (usually 1 min or 10 min for combat powers). And limiting the number of uses has functionally the same effect, just that you have to ration your full time for the entire day. I think what you are talking about is more what I'd call a "frequency limit" within 2e vocabulary, i.e. if you use an ability, you can't use it (and sometimes also similar abilities) again for X round(s)/minutes/hours/...etc..
You seem to understand duration limited and frequency limited the same way I do. Perhaps I was not clear that I gave examples of duration limited as a contrast point to aid the discussion of frequency limited? I think it matters a lot thematically.
The idea of choosing which powerful toolset to lock into for the next (hour? ten minutes? ten rounds?) feels like a lot of fun. Choose wisely, save the day. Choose poorly... I dunno, good luck untying that rope with flippers? It feels like it might be fun, I could be way off base here.
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If a shifter has focus spells it should not be the core hinge of the class. Focus spells always add some sort of utility but they are never the main thing for martials. Like the closest to that I can think of are like conflux spells and there are still alternatives to using them. So the core shifting mechanic should not use focus points. This is important because martials genuinely are built around being able to do their main thing whenever they need it.
I agree mostly with this. Any character, but especially a Martial, should not feel useless in combat when functioning with only their most basic abilities. Or they should be equipped to avoid being in this useless state as much as possible.
I played an Animal Barbarian. When I rage, I have my full combat power on. But I might choose not to rage if it's the better tactical choice (for example to use ranged weapons). I like that. If I go down, I become mostly useless, which I hate. But high HPs and Second Wind ensure that does not happen too often.
I will soon start playing a Fighter MC Wild Druid for the shapechanging. It costs a Focus point, but if, for any reason, I lose the shape, I'm still a Fighter, so not at all useless.
The Shifter needs a basic chassis that will allow them to not be useless in combat. The chassis should be based on changing shape / morphing to satisfy the craving we have for the shifting Martial.
Focus Points could then be used for either a boost in damage or higher versatility. I favor the second, because versatility is power in PF2, many classes already have focus for bonus damage abilities and focus for bonus damage is usually boring IMO (as the Goto option, no tactics required).