Haven't they confirmed that in addition to new subclasseses, there are a number of normal new feats for every class?
Yes theyve confirmed all classes get more stuff. So fighter/barb will get new toys. But it might be more of a path than sprinkled in feats, mostly because monk is getting zen Archer and drunken master styles (I'm pretty sure), so it might be more like feat trees
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I’m most excited to learn about the new wizard options. Unless I’ve missed something, which is very possible, I don’t think we’ve really learned anything about what new kinds of options we will see I. The wizard class.
For Fighter, I could imagine an Eldritch Knight class archetype being present.
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I’m most excited to learn about the new wizard options. Unless I’ve missed something, which is very possible, I don’t think we’ve really learned anything about what new kinds of options we will see I. The wizard class.
Agreed. I don't think we've heard anything about the wizard, alchemist, cleric, fighter, druid or bard. Really stoked to see the options added to those!
I’m most excited to learn about the new wizard options. Unless I’ve missed something, which is very possible, I don’t think we’ve really learned anything about what new kinds of options we will see I. The wizard class.Agreed. I don't think we've heard anything about the wizard, alchemist, cleric, fighter, druid or bard. Really stoked to see the options added to those!
I will be SUPER surprised if we don't see a poisoner option for alchemist as its the one main alchemy tool option that is not really represented by a main discipline in the core book.
I will be SUPER surprised if we don't see a poisoner option for alchemist as its the one main alchemy tool option that is not really represented by a main discipline in the core book.I’m most excited to learn about the new wizard options. Unless I’ve missed something, which is very possible, I don’t think we’ve really learned anything about what new kinds of options we will see I. The wizard class.Agreed. I don't think we've heard anything about the wizard, alchemist, cleric, fighter, druid or bard. Really stoked to see the options added to those!
Here's hoping! That would be sweet. Also it would make all the rogues in the world painfully happy.
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I think I've seen it confirmed somewhere that poison will be a path for the alchemist. Not sure where though, probably the retrospective
Here's hoping! That would be sweet. Also it would make all the rogues in the world painfully happy.I will be SUPER surprised if we don't see a poisoner option for alchemist as its the one main alchemy tool option that is not really represented by a main discipline in the core book.I’m most excited to learn about the new wizard options. Unless I’ve missed something, which is very possible, I don’t think we’ve really learned anything about what new kinds of options we will see I. The wizard class.Agreed. I don't think we've heard anything about the wizard, alchemist, cleric, fighter, druid or bard. Really stoked to see the options added to those!
On this note, I hope many of the new Feats get traits for a few classes as opposed to just one (See Swashbuckler's Nimble Dodge/You're Next).
I hope the Alchemist Poisoner feats have a Rogue trait in a few cases, even if they come with the prerequisite of some other Class Feat.
And I hope, potentially, that some of the relevant Class Feats from Core get added to other lists, similar to Sudden Charge and Quick Draw apply to more than one Class in Core.
Really curious how retroactive they might be in this regard. None would be fine, just curious if that would be explored.
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With Gen Con canceled, will the release date be moved up?
GenCon's not canceled, it's moved online, so most companies who rely on GenCon as a marketing tool are probably still going to keep their new releases and announcements to coincide with the event. It's also likely that shipping arrangements and release dates are already locked in with distributors and vendors to a degree that won't allow for change this close to the date.
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"It is with a heavy heart that we must announce the cancellation of Gen Con 2020 this August in Indianapolis". Sounds canceled to me.
Over two months isn't very close to the date either.
You missed the last tweet of the thread:
"In the meantime, we hope you'll join us for http://gencon.online, a virtual convention experience celebrating what brings us together."
And even if 2 months isn't close to the date for us, doesn't mean it's not close in terms of shipment and distributors. They send the book out for printing months in advanced.
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"It is with a heavy heart that we must announce the cancellation of Gen Con 2020 this August in Indianapolis". Sounds canceled to me.
Over two months isn't very close to the date either.
You missed the last tweet of the thread:
"In the meantime, we hope you'll join us for http://gencon.online, a virtual convention experience celebrating what brings us together."
And even if 2 months isn't close to the date for us, doesn't mean it's not close in terms of shipment and distributors. They send the book out for printing months in advanced.
This is 100% correct. As an example, items that are intended to be sold in stores during the Christmas season in the US every year start hitting our shores in September. While an extreme example, it illustrates the kind of time frame non-perishable logistical chains operate on.
It's probably more true this year than ever, with the act of physically putting products into orders taking extra time.
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The product page was recently updated for the release date to be mid July, so it should come out before gencon barring any delays
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Going back to what characters we'd make, I'm finding my mind going over the versatile heritages, and iterating over the possible ancestry combinations, and thinking about what it might mean for a character of that combination to exist. I mentioned before that the flavor text is where most of my inspiration comes from, so my main ideas currently center around the dhampir. Especially since I never really explored the 1E dhampir at all. A few examples I can think of:
* Dwarf Dhampir: Having lived in caves and underground their whole life, they don't know about their dhampir heritage. Perhaps this continues to be only a small part of them that they learn the truth of and control, or they have reason to lean fully into their heritage, and take full advantage of their strange powers.
* Gnome Dhampir: Gnomes are said to always be hungry for new experiences. Constantly in search of new experiences to stave off that terrible ailment: The Bleaching. Only....are you sure that's what you're fighting?
* Leshy Dhampir: The ritual that brought you into this form went terribly wrong! ...Or terribly right. Through either evil intent, or a hijacked ritual, your spirit has been twisted by undeath, but you still remember your purpose. Those that would wield you as a corruption against nature will soon learn that that was a terrible mistake, and you will make sure that your corruption will be the last.
* Elf and Iruxi Dhampir: I'll be honest, the most I have at the moment is enjoying a Blade-esque character with these. Full awareness of their heritage, but using it to fight evil with all your power. Dex and Strength-based respectively.
Organized Play Developer
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* Leshy Dhampir: The ritual that brought you into this form went terribly wrong! ...Or terribly right. Through either evil intent, or a hijacked ritual, your spirit has been twisted by undeath, but you still remember your purpose. Those that would wield you as a corruption against nature will soon learn that that was a terrible mistake, and you will make sure that your corruption will be the last.
In our office Return of the Runelords game converted over to PF2, I have a leshy luchador who was recently returned to life after spending most of book 3 dead, and I seriously considered bringing him back as a dhampir leshy lichador (not a typo, pun intended) who'd accidentally dragged some negative energy with him when he was returned to life.
We also had a lot of fun converting my wife's tiefling commander over to a tiefling elf battle lord. She hadn't even considered what ancestry her character might have been (orphan backstory) beyond tiefling, so filling in those details made her character even more interesting and fleshed out her backstory while also giving her a broader toolbox to build with.
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* Leshy Dhampir: The ritual that brought you into this form went terribly wrong! ...Or terribly right. Through either evil intent, or a hijacked ritual, your spirit has been twisted by undeath, but you still remember your purpose. Those that would wield you as a corruption against nature will soon learn that that was a terrible mistake, and you will make sure that your corruption will be the last.
In our office Return of the Runelords game converted over to PF2, I have a leshy luchador who was recently returned to life after spending most of book 3 dead, and I seriously considered bringing him back as a dhampir leshy lichador (not a typo, pun intended) who'd accidentally dragged some negative energy with him when he was returned to life.
We also had a lot of fun converting my wife's tiefling commander over to a tiefling elf battle lord. She hadn't even considered what ancestry her character might have been (orphan backstory) beyond tiefling, so filling in those details made her character even more interesting and fleshed out her backstory while also giving her a broader toolbox to build with.
makes grabby hands at the APG
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She hadn't even considered what ancestry her character might have been (orphan backstory) beyond tiefling, so filling in those details made her character even more interesting and fleshed out her backstory while also giving her a broader toolbox to build with.
This is fantastic. I can't wait for those that do conversions getting to feel the awesome feeling of that extra layer of character depth :)
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She hadn't even considered what ancestry her character might have been (orphan backstory) beyond tiefling, so filling in those details made her character even more interesting and fleshed out her backstory while also giving her a broader toolbox to build with.This is fantastic. I can't wait for those that do conversions getting to feel the awesome feeling of that extra layer of character depth :)
Right?! So excited to iterate through more ideas for the other versatile heritages once the APG comes out.
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I can't wait to see what great ideas everyone comes up with with versatile heritages. I'm so excited for this way of representing those planar scions, changelings, and dhampirs because of how much diversity it allows!
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I was going to say that I haven't looked forward to a new RPG book more than this one since the 1e APG - but on reflection, that's not entirely true, only because I was reallllly looking forward to the 2e core book after 6ish months of running with the playtest rules.
It's funny, though, because as a forever GM I've always been more excited about player options. At least this year I've finally embraced organized play due to the evangelizing from the various Paizo staff, particularly Mark & Linda, so I've actually gotten to play the game instead of just running it.
For those of us holding our breath in anticipation and excitement for the APG, when will we start seeing more teasers?
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For those of us holding our breath in anticipation and excitement for the APG, when will we start seeing more teasers?
Expect a big preview next Friday at the Paizocon APG seminar!
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For those of us holding our breath in anticipation and excitement for the APG, when will we start seeing more teasers?Expect a big preview next Friday at the Paizocon APG seminar!
I somehow read Friday, before I read next, and I have no one else to blame for this sorrow but me ;_;
XD, can't wait though.
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For those of us holding our breath in anticipation and excitement for the APG, when will we start seeing more teasers?Expect a big preview next Friday at the Paizocon APG seminar!
Be still my beating heart
I'm already sculpting myself miniatures for:
a leshy changeling, having been incarnated by a hag instead of the usual druid;
a witch with the iron wall archetype (I want to know more about the iron wall so bad it aches);
a kobold sorceror who is 10 pounds of dragon in a 5 pound bag;
and a tengu rogue/alchemist so I can shout "smoke bomb!"
I'm a bit worried that the more classical heritages (Snow Goblin, Cavern Elf) will become dull and weak compared to Dhampir Goblin and Tiefling Elf. Is there anything expected to make them on par with the new ancestries and as cool as them?
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I'm a bit worried that the more classical heritages (Snow Goblin, Cavern Elf) will become dull and weak compared to Dhampir Goblin and Tiefling Elf. Is there anything expected to make them on par with the new ancestries and as cool as them?
The thing about this is that the baseline generic Heritages thus far are, mechanically, basically Cavern Elf inasmuch as they just upgrade vision.
All that makes them 'special' is that they give you access to additional Ancestry Feats, which is only relevant if you prefer those Feats to the ones from your base Ancestry.
So...there's probably a few super powerful mix/match combos, but probably only a few and not everyone will use them.
I'm a bit worried that the more classical heritages (Snow Goblin, Cavern Elf) will become dull and weak compared to Dhampir Goblin and Tiefling Elf. Is there anything expected to make them on par with the new ancestries and as cool as them?The thing about this is that the baseline generic Heritages thus far are, mechanically, basically Cavern Elf inasmuch as they just upgrade vision.
All that makes them 'special' is that they give you access to additional Ancestry Feats, which is only relevant if you prefer those Feats to the ones from your base Ancestry.
So...there's probably a few super powerful mix/match combos, but probably only a few and not everyone will use them.
If they give the same advantage with more feat choice, then they are better. Chances are high that you'll find a cool feat among the Dhampir, Changeling, Tiefling, Aasimar and whatnot feat list. So, it raises the question: Why would anyone play a Cavern Elf if it's a straight up worse choice?
And I don't speak of the increased identity of the new heritages over the old ones.
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If they give the same advantage with more feat choice, then they are better. Chances are high that you'll find a cool feat among the Dhampir, Changeling, Tiefling, Aasimar and whatnot feat list. So, it raises the question: Why would anyone play a Cavern Elf if it's a straight up worse choice?
Three things:
1. No, they're only better if you will ever take one of their Feats unavailable to your base Ancestry. That's something that's far from a given, there are a fairly significant number of good Ancestry Feats in most Ancestries already, and you only ever get 5 in most cases. If you don't do that it's just Cavern Elf plus a name change and some flavor (which may or may not be preferable).
2. Cavern Elf is on the weak side of Elf Heritages, it may get overlooked more now than previously, but it was already getting overlooked pretty regularly. I'm not worried about Elf Heritages in general (or other Heritages in general) getting overshadowed, even if the vision-increasing ones do a little bit.
3. I believe all of these are Uncommon, meaning it's hardly gonna be ubiquitous to ave everyone pick one.
And I don't speak of the increased identity of the new heritages over the old ones.
I don't know if I agree that they have 'increased identity'. They give your character a new identity, sure enough, but they do it by significantly diluting the old one. If I, on a thematic level, want to play a character who is partially defined by being an Elf, I'm probably actively not gonna want to pick something that dilutes that. Only if I already want to play a Tiefling am I gonna start thinking about what Ancestry I want them to be.
...Cool feats deeper down the Book Line that list "Cavern Elf" as a pre-requisite.
"Paragon Feats" if you will.
Has it been stated there won't be Cavern Elf feats in the APG? I would assume that all heritages got at least a few goodies.
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Has it been stated there won't be Cavern Elf feats in the APG? I would assume that all heritages got at least a few goodies....Cool feats deeper down the Book Line that list "Cavern Elf" as a pre-requisite.
"Paragon Feats" if you will.
It seems like it'd be taking up a lot of space to create feat lines for every heritage when they could just make a couple and use the space for ancestry feats that aren't heritage-locked.
In my mind, cavern elf serves a useful role, even if it's slightly-but-definitetely worse. Elves shouldn't need to be a dhampir to have darkvision, and that's covered. I wouldn't want universal heritages to be limited to giving something worse than every regular heritage; being on par with half-elf seems reasonable to me.
Has it been stated there won't be Cavern Elf feats in the APG? I would assume that all heritages got at least a few goodies....Cool feats deeper down the Book Line that list "Cavern Elf" as a pre-requisite.
"Paragon Feats" if you will.
It seems like it'd be taking up a lot of space to create feat lines for every heritage when they could just make a couple and use the space for ancestry feats that aren't heritage-locked.
In my mind, cavern elf serves a useful role, even if it's slightly-but-definitetely worse. Elves shouldn't need to be a dhampir to have darkvision, and that's covered. I wouldn't want universal heritages to be limited to giving something worse than every regular heritage; being on par with half-elf seems reasonable to me.
It doesn't necessarily have to take up more space in the book though.
For instance, an Ancestry Feat for Elves with the requirement of "Darkvision" covers multiple heritages.
You could mirror this to heritages: Arctic Heritage as a prerequisite on an Elf Feat that also includes Demon Tiefling Heritage (both cold resistance) is another reasonable avenue.
I would think they would like to add commonalities where it makes sense to avoid it.
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If they give the same advantage with more feat choice, then they are better. Chances are high that you'll find a cool feat among the Dhampir, Changeling, Tiefling, Aasimar and whatnot feat list. So, it raises the question: Why would anyone play a Cavern Elf if it's a straight up worse choice?
And I don't speak of the increased identity of the new heritages over the old ones.
...Because people make character creation choices for reasons other than mechanical advantage?
...Because people make character creation choices for reasons other than mechanical advantage?If they give the same advantage with more feat choice, then they are better. Chances are high that you'll find a cool feat among the Dhampir, Changeling, Tiefling, Aasimar and whatnot feat list. So, it raises the question: Why would anyone play a Cavern Elf if it's a straight up worse choice?
And I don't speak of the increased identity of the new heritages over the old ones.
Agreed. The other thing is that it's only barely a worse choice, because elf has plenty of great feats. Even if one wants to stick to advantages, the mechanical advantage of "having dhampir options" is going to be outweighed in some campaigns by advantages like "not being a dhampir in Ustalav".
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...Because people make character creation choices for reasons other than mechanical advantage?
While I don't disagree with you, I think SuperBidi could use that exact same argument.
When a character choice has significant thematic and roleplaying implications for the character, the mechanical incentives for the player to abandon that idea for a mechanically superior one should be minimized.
I'm not convinced Tieflings are a huge issue, but saying "people don't just want to min-max" is an argument for being careful with mechanical design, not against it.
...Because people make character creation choices for reasons other than mechanical advantage?While I don't disagree with you, I think SuperBidi could use that exact same argument.
When a character choice has significant thematic and roleplaying implications for the character, the mechanical incentives for the player to abandon that idea for a mechanically superior one should be minimized.
I'm not convinced Tieflings are a huge issue, but saying "people don't just want to min-max" is an argument for better balance, not against it.
I think this is better balance- Dhampir gives as much power on its heritage as one of the weaker heritages. Even if I want to take elf feats, I'm not giving up my heritage just for the privilege of options- it fits the balance of half-elf.
Having a strong feat line for regular ancestries like cavern elf is a good idea. Some of the new ancestries could have other drawbacks like dhampir - negative healing is for sure not always a good thing.
On the other hand, maybe some ancestries won't offer anything but access to their feats, making them slightly weaker at first level.
I'm a bit worried that the more classical heritages (Snow Goblin, Cavern Elf) will become dull and weak compared to Dhampir Goblin and Tiefling Elf. Is there anything expected to make them on par with the new ancestries and as cool as them?
Didn't think of that, but yeah, having a versatile heritage being a straight mechanical upgrade of an existing heritage is kinda annoying. You can say some people would want to remain without the versatile heritage for thematic reasons - but I'd dislike the idea of "thematic option" = "mechanically inferior" as something that should be supported.
To be fair, I never liked Cavern Elf thematically, but I've yet to see a player pick anything else for an Elf due to the number of situations in which darkvision can be useful - especially if you're the only person in the party without it. Personally, I think darkvision is still too common, with only Human, Halfling, and Lizardfolk not having at least low-light vision by default and most low-light vision ancestries having a way to upgrade to darkvision. Looking at the APG races and their PF1 versions, I wouldn't be surprised if every versatile heritage acted like dhampir to improve darkvision (along with another effect like negative healing) and only Catfolk & Tengu started with low-light instead of darkvision.
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Darkvision in general causes group division and it’s one of my least favorite things in the game honestly as a GM.
If all PCs couldn’t get darkvision at all without the spell support I’d have preferred that honestly. It’s usually a club half the group participates in and it often leads to weird mismatched descriptions and meta knowledge.
Lowlight would be fine, since it’s only an enhanced on distance, but darkvision itself is a binary mechanic that’s just so frustrating to deal with in actual play on either side of the table.
#noOneAskedForThisSoapBoxRant
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With Lineage now being a thing, there might be room to make Cavern Elf into a prerequisite for a whole drow line. Drow don't seem like they really need their own ancestry. It could be done, but I don't think it is necessary.
Darkvision in general causes group division and it’s one of my least favorite things in the game honestly as a GM.
If all PCs couldn’t get darkvision at all without the spell support I’d have preferred that honestly. It’s usually a club half the group participates in and it often leads to weird mismatched descriptions and meta knowledge.
Lowlight would be fine, since it’s only an enhanced on distance, but darkvision itself is a binary mechanic that’s just so frustrating to deal with in actual play on either side of the table.
#noOneAskedForThisSoapBoxRant
You're thinking about PF1 low-light vision. PF2 ignores dim light penalties. (Which I have yet to see one up.)
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With Lineage now being a thing, there might be room to make Cavern Elf into a prerequisite for a whole drow line. Drow don't seem like they really need their own ancestry. It could be done, but I don't think it is necessary.
I highly doubt this. I'd definitely expect Drow to be their own Ancestry, and would generally say Cavern Elf is more reflective of the Elves of Jinin or other non-drow who have a history in the dark.
You're thinking about PF1 low-light vision. PF2 ignores dim light penalties. (Which I have yet to see one up.)Darkvision in general causes group division and it’s one of my least favorite things in the game honestly as a GM.
If all PCs couldn’t get darkvision at all without the spell support I’d have preferred that honestly. It’s usually a club half the group participates in and it often leads to weird mismatched descriptions and meta knowledge.
Lowlight would be fine, since it’s only an enhanced on distance, but darkvision itself is a binary mechanic that’s just so frustrating to deal with in actual play on either side of the table.
#noOneAskedForThisSoapBoxRant
It doesn't change much of my opinion, just that it's an enhancer.
Enhancer's inherently don't exclude action, they just augment. In this case, you can do all the actions you normally could as the person with LL vs no LL, you just have a miss chance.
Darkvision vs. LL or No Darkvision is "I can't realistically perform any actions".
Which to me, on it's own, sounds like a higher level ability than someone should even get at level 1 and it creates this binary "half the group can see, the other half can't! Do we put the torch out or not?"
The only times Darkvision gets to shine without putting another player (quite literally) in the dark is when everyone has Darkvision.
#SoapBoxContinued
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Darkvision in general causes group division and it’s one of my least favorite things in the game honestly as a GM.
My issue with darkvision as a GM is that it routinely becomes "blame the stupid Human for having normal eyes" because everyone else in the party has it. Even in PF2 thus far, nearly every low-light vision ancestry just grabs the upgrade to darkvision heritage and continues leaving Human PCs as the only one causing an issue for the group. [Which also makes it kinda odd that Elves seem to primarily live in caves now.]