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I got my copy of COM yesterday (thanks to USPS not losing it the way they lost my AA3), and it is full of great stuff that will take ages to sift through.
This is a general thread for us to point out stuff in relation to what we thought the game needed previously. Paizo has been very active on the forums, monitoring what we are noting about the game, and working out (sometimes unexpected) ways of fixing problems that we've encountered.
For example, I recall myself and others asking for extra stuff to do with Entropy Points... specifically I remember wanting move and attack options... and now even 1st level Vanguards can use EPs to get extra movement or damage.
Personally, I want to crow a little. I noticed that the Biohacker's injections were changed from Restoratives and Counteragents to Boosters and Inhibitors...
Restoratives they are not.My immediate impression was that "Booster" was the correct nomenclature.
Yeah, I didn't like that, but it wasn't quite as egregious. You could explain it by "countering" an enemy "agent."
Personally I would have called them "Inhibitors."
What did you request? How was it fulfilled?
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We got a variety of ways to make small arms usable for non-operatives.
I particularly liked Double Tap.
"Small Arms don't do enough damage!"
"Have you tried shooting more bullets?"
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As an old fan of d20 Modern, I too was glad to see Double Tap make it into the game.
As a person who has to wait until the 13th to look at the COM, what does Double Tap do, and does it specifically work with the Solarians new Solar Flare manifestation?
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Well, I wanted a way to trade class features besides the existing archetype system. Got that.
I wanted a lot more feats to open up some variety. I got that.
I wanted a way for small arms to be useful without making operatives as strong as primary combatants. I got that.
I wanted to be able to use old weapons with entropic strike by reducing damage. I got that.
My only real disappointment is that solar armor still got no love.
As a person who has to wait until the 13th to look at the COM, what does Double Tap do, and does it specifically work with the Solarians new Solar Flare manifestation?
Double tap uses 2 shots to get a +1 to hit and full level specialization. A solarian would only gain the +1 to hit from that, with a solar flare that already has full level specialization.
As a person who has to wait until the 13th to look at the COM, what does Double Tap do, and does it specifically work with the Solarians new Solar Flare manifestation?Double tap uses 2 shots to get a +1 to hit and full level specialization. A solarian would only gain the +1 to hit from that, with a solar flare that already has full level specialization.
So it’s probably not worth it for Solar Flare Solarians. Still though, that sounds like a great feat.
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So it’s probably not worth it for Solar Flare Solarians. Still though, that sounds like a great feat.As a person who has to wait until the 13th to look at the COM, what does Double Tap do, and does it specifically work with the Solarians new Solar Flare manifestation?Double tap uses 2 shots to get a +1 to hit and full level specialization. A solarian would only gain the +1 to hit from that, with a solar flare that already has full level specialization.
It's redundant for solar flare solarians. They don't get the +1 to hit, but they can full attack.
Keep in mind that solar flare solarians get full specialization on a small arm, and they're not MAD anymore. They can also slap a Soulfire on the flare so it's a pretty fierce gun already at level 1.
Trying to slap soulfire on the flare runs into a problem. The flare can only benefit from fusions that work on small arms.
apparently nothing to put any pizazz into an armor solarion.
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I read a lot of threads requesting better support of ranged Solarians, and boy did they get that. The Solar Flare is great, and with revelations like Agile Wavelengths, Distant Burst and Gravity Pulse, you can be a very effective battlefield controller. Gravitic Calling and Solar Incursion are just cake.
I really like the Distant Burst revelation. It looks like you can combine it with Black Hole for battlefield control. Also, a short-range fireball every three turns is nice.
I play a melee Solarian in our game and I'm really liking Gravity Reinforcement. That alone is enough to keep me graviton attuned. I just wish they'd made the Extra Manifestation and/or solar shield a little better. Heavy armor is still a feat tax for melee builds.
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I for one am totally geeking out over the Character Operations Manual.
And I'm not even a third of the way through the book! I cannot believe how many "gaps" in this one book. There are SO many things that I wanted, that I've heard other people discussing wanting, and it's all practically there!
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Trying to slap soulfire on the flare runs into a problem. The flare can only benefit from fusions that work on small arms.
I don't think that's quite what it says:
Any solarian class features (including stellar revelations and zenith revelations) that specifically affect melee weapons (such as the flashing strikes class feature) function with your solar flare, even if they normally work only with melee attacks. Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
Soulfire
Item Level 1
The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals. When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done, in addition to your Strength bonus.
You apply Soulfire to a weapon crystal, and the weapon crystal applies to the solar flare.
Is there any reason to continue to take level in envoys after 12?
Is there any reason to continue to take level in envoys after 12?
Magical Expertise Envoys get new spell levels at 13th and 17th level, and can forego new Expertise Talents for getting more spells known and per day.
Polymorphic Disguise Envoys upgrade all the way to 20th level (when you get the equivalent of Polymorph VI).
Spell Gem Understanding lets you use your Envoy level as your caster level, so you'll want that high to use the best gems.
There are now two 12th level Envoy Improvisations (Coordinated Charge, which lets your allies charge a foe as a reaction, and Fusion Resonance, which lets you or an ally borrow a fusion on an ally's weapon for a round). So if you want both of those, you'll get to at least 14th level.
And there's some power creep in the Expertise Talents, so you might hold out a little longer in the class to pick some up (Saving Expertise being a key one here - Spend a Resolve to either add your Expertise die to a save or reroll it).
12 is still the highest level of improvisation, though of course you can keep going envoy to select more options off of the list. The shapeshifting and spellcasting alternate class features' scaling do not end at 12.
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12 is still the highest level of improvisation, though of course you can keep going envoy to select more options off of the list. The shapeshifting and spellcasting alternate class features' scaling do not end at 12.
The highest level of Improvisation was previously 8, though.
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It's this part that makes soulfire not work...
Any solarian class features (including stellar revelations and zenith revelations) that specifically affect melee weapons (such as the flashing strikes class feature) function with your solar flare, even if they normally work only with melee attacks. Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
Soulfire explicitly cannot be applied to a small arm only to a Weapon Crystal, so it cannot work with Solar Flare. I kinda wish they'd have made an exception for it, but it's already pretty well balanced with how much damage it can already do.
To the OP. I specifically asked for a nerf to the confusion ability from Biohacker as I saw how disruptive that was to combat with players that were capable of using tactics. ((Every boss fight becomes a game of ping pong)) They removed it. I also recommended adding a couple of insight bonuses to some skills for the Biohacker. They picked a slightly different set than I wanted, but I think it works.
To the OP. I specifically asked for a nerf to the confusion ability from Biohacker as I saw how disruptive that was to combat with players that were capable of using tactics. ((Every boss fight becomes a game of ping pong)) They removed it. I also recommended adding a couple of insight bonuses to some skills for the Biohacker. They picked a slightly different set than I wanted, but I think it works.
I remember asking for Instinctive Biohackers to get their Wisdom bonus to bonus skill ranks like Studious Biohackers got Intelligence to Will Saves. They got rid of both, giving a straight bonus to Will for Studious and two extra skill ranks per level in two chosen skills to Instinctive. I wasn't entirely happy that skill ranks for Biohackers got reduced to 4 per level from 6, but that helps at least.
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It's this part that makes soulfire not work...
Any solarian class features (including stellar revelations and zenith revelations) that specifically affect melee weapons (such as the flashing strikes class feature) function with your solar flare, even if they normally work only with melee attacks. Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.Soulfire explicitly cannot be applied to a small arm only to a Weapon Crystal, so it cannot work with Solar Flare. I kinda wish they'd have made an exception for it, but it's already pretty well balanced with how much damage it can already do.
I think it does work: soulfire is perfectly legal to apply to a crystal, and augments the crystal. The solar flare is never directly affected by the fusion so the problem doesn't happen.
How is the way that the flare is affected by soulfire any different than the way every other fusion on the crystal affects the flare?
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How is the way that the flare is affected by soulfire any different than the way every other fusion on the crystal affects the flare?
I think the point is that soulfire is a fusion that affects weapon crystals, and not a fusion that affects small arms. Therefore the flare cannot benefit from the fusion because of the flare specific rule about fusions.
I was specifically asking in response to this statement, and should, perhaps, have used a quote box.
I think it does work: soulfire is perfectly legal to apply to a crystal, and augments the crystal. The solar flare is never directly affected by the fusion so the problem doesn't happen.
I think, and brought up in this thread, that soulfire does not technically work with flare, though I also suspect that may not be intended.
I can't believe that they intended Soulfire to not work with a Solar Flare.
I assume it just means you can't put a Melee Only fusion (like Defending) on a weapon crystal and then apply it to your Solar Flare instead of the Solar Weapon.
Though I agree the wording, if taken as strictly RAW, would mean that you cannot, since you couldn't apply Soulfire directly to a small arm.
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I can't believe that they intended Soulfire to not work with a Solar Flare.
I assume it just means you can't put a Melee Only fusion (like Defending) on a weapon crystal and then apply it to your Solar Flare instead of the Solar Weapon.
Yeah that's my take too.
Though I agree the wording, if taken as strictly RAW, would mean that you cannot, since you couldn't apply Soulfire directly to a small arm.
I'm not convinced of that. What I do believe is that this area of the rules is prone to bad language - note how the CRB doesn't even cover using fusions on crystals to affect solar weapons. That had to be clarified by Owen, but never made it into the FAQ. So this whole bit of the COM rules refers to a forum post. Doesn't give you a solid foundation for trying to do things neatly by RAW when the rules aren't really "W".
Yeah, some number of COM readers are quite legitimately going to ask since when can you use any fusion on a Solarian crystal?
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I'd love for it to work, but
A - I'm not convinced that it's intended for it to work. You can already do something like 22d4+20 with it at 20th level before solarian revelations or the photon attunement bonus. That already makes far more damaging than any other small arm and I think there's only even one longarm that is close to it. This is a trend for most of the 6-20 range. It's consistently already at or near the top of longarm damage throughout. Letting soulfire work would let it contend from 1-6 where it's clearly behind, so it could be intended. I'd definitely click a FAQ button if someone put a rules thread out there asking that question. But you can't assume its intended just because you want it to be. I'd be happy to be wrong.
B - Soulfire clearly states that it's a fusion that can only be put on a solarian weapon crystal. Solar flare clearly states that it can only benefit from fusions that would work on a small arm. Those two things are mutually exclusive. Neither of these sentences are using fancy or obtuse legalese. "The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals." "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm." That's not bad language, that's exceptionally clear. It doesn't work.
It just occurred to me of something else for this thread.
Loading an injection into an injection weapon was a move action in the playtest, and you could get the Quick Load theorem to load and shoot as part of the same standard action. I had asked for Quick Load to become a class feature instead of a theorem, because it's basically a theorem tax to be effective in combat.
Biohackers now do not have to take a move action to load injections, they just choose which one they're firing.
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I'd love for it to work, but
A - I'm not convinced that it's intended for it to work. You can already do something like 22d4+20 with it at 20th level before solarian revelations or the photon attunement bonus. That already makes far more damaging than any other small arm and I think there's only even one longarm that is close to it. This is a trend for most of the 6-20 range. It's consistently already at or near the top of longarm damage throughout. Letting soulfire work would let it contend from 1-6 where it's clearly behind, so it could be intended. I'd definitely click a FAQ button if someone put a rules thread out there asking that question. But you can't assume its intended just because you want it to be. I'd be happy to be wrong.
Run me through your math on this? I'm not sure how you get to that figure. What I got for a single shot, factoring in specialization but nothing else, is:
Level -> Damage1 -> 1d4
2 -> 1d4
3 -> 1d4+3
4 -> 1d4+4
5 -> 1d4+5
6 -> 2d4+6
7 -> 2d4+7
8 -> 2d4+8
9 -> 3d4+9
10 -> 3d4+10
11 -> 3d4+11
12 -> 4d4+12
13 -> 5d4+13
14 -> 6d4+14
15 -> 7d4+15
16 -> 8d4+16
17 -> 9d4+17
18 -> 10d4+18
19 -> 11d4+19
20 -> 12d4+20
That isn't really that different from what you get with any other small arm.
B - Soulfire clearly states that it's a fusion that can only be put on a solarian weapon crystal. Solar flare clearly states that it can only benefit from fusions that would work on a small arm. Those two things are mutually exclusive. Neither of these sentences are using fancy or obtuse legalese. "The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals." "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm." That's not bad language, that's exceptionally clear. It doesn't work.
I think you're getting too hung up on the literal here. All fusions for solarians are applied to crystals, but you never attack with crystals directly. So there's some kind of poorly documented rules at work here. You're insisting on a very literal reading of a mostly unwritten rule.
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We're way way way off topic from the OP, so this will be my last response and I'm only doing it to clarify what I said.
Run me through your math on this? I'm not sure how you get to that figure. What I got for a single shot, factoring in specialization but nothing else, is:
Your chart is ignoring the extra damage from the solarian weapon crystals, which does itself work. Solarian Weapon crystals themselves explicitly do affect solar flare, just not the weapon special properties, crit hit effects, or fusions that can't be applied to a small arm that they may have on them.
There's a level 20 weapon crystal that adds 10d4 damage, for example. That makes the total damage 22d4+20 which is either equal to or higher average damage than the highest longarm damage in the game at 20th. There are several level 6 and 7 crystals that add 1d4. That makes the total damage at 6th 3d4+6, which is also comparable to longarms of 6th or 7th level. I'm not sure those are the highest numbers, I just picked the d4 ones because they made the math easy to do in my head.
If you add together weapon crystal damage to base damage for solar flare, the solar flare is roughly equal to or greater than the highest damage longarms of equal level for most levels from level 6-20. The only ones I saw that consistently beat it are those acid ones from Dead Suns 2 that are base d20s for damage. From 1-2 it's small arm or slightly better. From 3-5 it starts catching up from small arm to longarm. After that, it's high end longarm.
I don't think it 'breaks' anything to add charisma on top of that. I just think it's wrong to assume it's intended for you to be adding charisma on top of that.
It's this part that makes soulfire not work...
Any solarian class features (including stellar revelations and zenith revelations) that specifically affect melee weapons (such as the flashing strikes class feature) function with your solar flare, even if they normally work only with melee attacks. Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
Soulfire is a fusion that is applied to solarian crystals, not any form of solar weapon. Because solar flare can use weapon crystals, it can use weapon crystals with the soulfire fusion. You don't apply soulfire to anything that isn't a solarian crystal, so literally speaking it cannot be applied to solar flare OR solar weapon. You can apply it to the crystals both of these abilities feature.
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Soulfire is a fusion that is applied to solarian crystals, not any form of solar weapon. Because solar flare can use weapon crystals, it can use weapon crystals with the soulfire fusion. You don't apply soulfire to anything that isn't a solarian crystal, so literally speaking it cannot be applied to solar flare OR solar weapon. You can apply it to the crystals both of these abilities feature.
By that logic the prohibition on applying a fusion that can't apply to a small arm is completely meaningless because no fusion is ever applied to the solar flare at all. It's all applied to the crystals.
That prohibition is there for a reason. it means something.
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By that logic the prohibition on applying a fusion that can't apply to a small arm is completely meaningless because no fusion is ever applied to the solar flare at all. It's all applied to the crystals.That prohibition is there for a reason. it means something.
The way it is worded with small arms only applies to fusions such as throwing weapon, it applies to melee only, so it is not compatible with small arms. Soulfire says weapon crystals only, not melee only.
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Is there any reason to continue to take level in envoys after 12?Magical Expertise Envoys get new spell levels at 13th and 17th level, and can forego new Expertise Talents for getting more spells known and per day.
Polymorphic Disguise Envoys upgrade all the way to 20th level (when you get the equivalent of Polymorph VI).
Spell Gem Understanding lets you use your Envoy level as your caster level, so you'll want that high to use the best gems.
There are now two 12th level Envoy Improvisations (Coordinated Charge, which lets your allies charge a foe as a reaction, and Fusion Resonance, which lets you or an ally borrow a fusion on an ally's weapon for a round). So if you want both of those, you'll get to at least 14th level.
And there's some power creep in the Expertise Talents, so you might hold out a little longer in the class to pick some up (Saving Expertise being a key one here - Spend a Resolve to either add your Expertise die to a save or reroll it).
Envoy power creep? Bring it. The more tacked on the better. The class needs it badly.
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We're way way way off topic from the OP, so this will be my last response and I'm only doing it to clarify what I said.
Run me through your math on this? I'm not sure how you get to that figure. What I got for a single shot, factoring in specialization but nothing else, is:Your chart is ignoring the extra damage from the solarian weapon crystals, which does itself work. Solarian Weapon crystals themselves explicitly do affect solar flare, just not the weapon special properties, crit hit effects, or fusions that can't be applied to a small arm that they may have on them.
There's a level 20 weapon crystal that adds 10d4 damage, for example. That makes the total damage 22d4+20 which is either equal to or higher average damage than the highest longarm damage in the game at 20th. There are several level 6 and 7 crystals that add 1d4. That makes the total damage at 6th 3d4+6, which is also comparable to longarms of 6th or 7th level. I'm not sure those are the highest numbers, I just picked the d4 ones because they made the math easy to do in my head.
If you add together weapon crystal damage to base damage for solar flare, the solar flare is roughly equal to or greater than the highest damage longarms of equal level for most levels from level 6-20. The only ones I saw that consistently beat it are those acid ones from Dead Suns 2 that are base d20s for damage. From 1-2 it's small arm or slightly better. From 3-5 it starts catching up from small arm to longarm. After that, it's high end longarm.
I don't think it 'breaks' anything to add charisma on top of that. I just think it's wrong to assume it's intended for you to be adding charisma on top of that.
Ah right I'd missed that, so far I've been fairly conservative in buying expensive crystals.
Doesn't really prove much about what's intended though. A solar flare on its own goes up to 12d4; a solar weapon goes up to 12d6, and benefits from all the same bonuses, certainly including soulfire.
As for the comparison to longarms, I think comparing the "bare" stats of longarms to the decorated-with-class-power stats of solarian weapons isn't quite a fair comparison. If you compared longarms with the benefits of high level soldier abilities to solarian weaponry, then it'd be a fairer comparison. (Yes, other classes can get longarm proficiency, but only soldiers get them by default so that's where you go looking for what is intended.)
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The way it is worded with small arms only applies to fusions such as throwing weapon, it applies to melee only, so it is not compatible with small arms. Soulfire says weapon crystals only, not melee only.
The path your logic takes to get here precludes the prohibition from prohibiting anything. If you are reading rules as a total null set you are most likely misreading them.
There might be some intent for soulfire to work with the ability, but that seems to be complete speculation.
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Double tap is a feat?! As if this game didn't already HOUND me with feats that are more important, what with three of my feats locked behind level 5, forcing me to spend six levels in total to get them all. Characters get way to few feats in this game, or maybe I was just too good at Pathfinder, and now that has come back to bite me in the behind. Most characters I played, I spent feats on getting Extra class stuff, like discoveries for alchemists and rogue talents. In fact, my most feat heavy character ever was a hobgoblin brawler based on intimidation and causing bleed. A very evil character, but fun.
Alright, so how is the engineer options, prototype armor and weapon? Man, I wish I could play an overpowered game of double and take both prototypes without sacrificing levels. Like in Spheres of Power and their mechanist class. I'm looking forward to digging into the book, but I fear I have to make my own houseruled version so I can actually get what I want. I need a new character concept that isn't a super-mobile engineer (climbing, swimming, flying (thanks, dronemeld)) so I can actually get feats that I need like long arms, and this new feat tax that is Double Tap. Oh yeah, operatives just got even stronger with that feat, didn't they? Man, that sucks for everybody else.
But yeah, main question, what do the engineers get?
I don't see anything specific to engineering role on starships. There's a bunch of new 'open' actions that any free person can do. But they're pretty minor.
Back to the OP, this is something that doesn't match expectations. I had expected to see (and recommended in one of my feedbacks) some of the one-off actions from various AP's to get put in COM as normal actions.
I'm pretty sure he meant mechanic, not engineer, seeing as one of the blog posts was talking about those options for mechanic.
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All the extant classes, including the mechanic, got new 'base' options and new 'selection' options. For the mechanic, that means instead of choosing Exocortex or Drone, you can now also choose Armor or Weapon, which gives you an experimental (effectively 'bleeding edge') suit of armor or weapon, respectively and the pre-requisite proficiencies to use them.
Mechanics also got a handful of new Mechanic Tricks. Portable Charging Station and Technological Medic could both be really useful in some groups/campaigns.
Oh, snap. There's an 8th level mechanic trick that actually does do something in Starship Combat. Bolster Armor gives you an ability similar to energy shield in normal combat (grant someone temp HP) but in starship combat, you can boost the armor class of your ship in a single quadrant or grant it shield points equal to your mechanic level. Nice! There's also a 14th level one called Inventive Engineer that gives you several new starship combat options.
Back to the OP, this is something that doesn't match expectations. I had expected to see (and recommended in one of my feedbacks) some of the one-off actions from various AP's to get put in COM as normal actions.
Could you elaborate some? What one-off actions were you expecting to become normal actions?
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Leaving aside the bit where combat isn't the area where operatives are overtuned, double tap does not really make them stronger, since the double tap is a specific standard action, not something that can be stacked on top of trick attack.
I'll put it in spoiler tags.
I didn't initially expect them in COM, but when I heard there might be starship specific stuff I explicitly asked for it.
/shrug
Maybe we'll get it in the Starship Operations Manual coming Fall 2020.
Pithica42,
You are correct,
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None of the new classes have Pilot as a class skill.
Biohacker got Computers and Engineering, so at least they can fill the Engineering or Science Officer post.
Vanguard should really have Physical Science as a class skill since that includes Physics and one of their Aspects (Reaction) gives an insight bonus to the skill. I guess none of them study the entropy that they utilize.
Witchwarper could really use more skill ranks per level, especially since it is Charisma based.
The new ship roles are nice aids to the other roles, but they are no substitute for Pilot, Gunner or Engineer. I do think they are interesting, but you better have a group of five or more before you use them,
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None of the new classes have Pilot as a class skill.
While it's true none of them gain Piloting as a class skill, instinctual biohackers can be pretty great at Piloting if you're willing to pick it up as a class skill (such as by being a class that gets extra class skills or by taking Ace Pilot as your theme). Instinctual biohackers can pick any two skills they want to apply their scaling insight bonus to, and biohackers benefit from having a decent Dexterity with which to fire their weapons.
It's not EXACTLY the same as having Piloting as a class skill, but biohackers can do it.