Can You Put a Fusion on a Solarian Weapon Crystal?


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As the title says.

Weapon crystals are listed in the weapons section, and fusions can be added to any weapon. So it seems straight forward.

But a lot of people think that it's not meant to be this way.

Argument For: Nowhere does it refer to Solarian Weapon Crystals as Fusions, nor does it say that they cannot accept fusions. They are specifically listed under the heading "Weapon Descriptions." They are in the "Weapons" Chart. While they do work in some ways like Weapon Fusions, they aren't actually weapon fusions.

Argument Against: Unless you are smashing the crystal against someone's head like a rock, then it's not a weapon. The damage is only a thing when it's inside a solar weapon. It doesn't make sense that you'd be able to put a fusion on the crystal when they serve similar purposes.


I have made a positive contribution!!


Now, to bring balance to the universe I'll be forced to make a Mystic of Zon-Kuthon named Nippleclamp Joe.


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For my part, I generally accept anything listed on the Weapons table as a weapon, qualifying as such for all purposes unless it specifically says otherwise (i.e. specific trumping general).


I Honestly don't see why not. If the rest of the party can use them and I kind of like the idea of a Solarian Swinging holy damage.

The Exchange

It's in the section on weapons and doesn't say you CAN'T, so I think yes.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

And I say butter side down!!

Wait... Hold on a minute...


I have no strong feelings about this one way or the other!


I hope for "yes", but expect a "no". If you were originally intended to do this, I feel it would have been spelled out. But it would be a nice addition to the class.


Yeah. I hope it's a yes. Solarians could use the extra boost, and there are aspects of their class that don't make sense without it.

Argument For: For example, under Sunbolt (p106) it specifically states that if you have a solarian weapon crystal that changes the type of damage a Solar Weapon does, you can have your Sunbolt deal that kind of damage.

Here is the thing...

No Solarian crystals do that.

Solarian crystals CAN'T do that specifically on page 170. As they state the extra damage will be of a special type but Solarian Crystals do not change the weapon damage type.

There is only one way to do that: You have to apply a fusion to a weapon.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Or it could be a typo.


Argument Against: On page 170, it reads, "A crystal within a mote can’t be interacted with in any way other than via abilities that specifically target a mote."

This suggests that fusions don't work with crystals, as fusions don't specifically state that they can target a mote.

--> Counter Argument For: Nothing in the book states that it specifically targets a mote. Not even in the Solarian class. A search for the word 'mote' only shows it on p101 under the description of what a mote is and on p170 under weapon crystals.

That line is about protecting the crystal once it's in a mote, as motes generally can't be targeted.

Argument Against: On p101, it reads, "Only you can interact with your solar manifestation, whether in mote, armor, or weapon form. No other creature or effect can affect your solar manifestation in any way, including disarming or sundering it."

Fusions are an effect and thus cannot be applied.

--> Counter Argument For: Weapon crystals are a violation of this rule. Fusions don't affect the Mote, but rather apply an effect to the weapon crystal, which then can be applied to the mote. You can't attach a fusion directly to the manifestation without applying it to a crystal first. Applying a fusion to a crystal allows you to bypass the general rule forbidding things from affecting the manifestation, because crystals have a specific rule allowing them to do so.


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I'd prefer if the FAQ just allowed you to treat your solar weapon as a weapon of your level, so you can just put fusions on it directly.


Bumping this because this is VERY important.


bookrat wrote:

Argument Against: On page 170, it reads, "A crystal within a mote can’t be interacted with in any way other than via abilities that specifically target a mote."

This suggests that fusions don't work with crystals, as fusions don't specifically state that they can target a mote.

--> Counter Argument For: Nothing in the book states that it specifically targets a mote. Not even in the Solarian class. A search for the word 'mote' only shows it on p101 under the description of what a mote is and on p170 under weapon crystals.

That line is about protecting the crystal once it's in a mote, as motes generally can't be targeted.

Argument Against: On p101, it reads, "Only you can interact with your solar manifestation, whether in mote, armor, or weapon form. No other creature or effect can affect your solar manifestation in any way, including disarming or sundering it."

Fusions are an effect and thus cannot be applied.

--> Counter Argument For: Weapon crystals are a violation of this rule. Fusions don't affect the Mote, but rather apply an effect to the weapon crystal, which then can be applied to the mote. You can't attach a fusion directly to the manifestation without applying it to a crystal first. Applying a fusion to a crystal allows you to bypass the general rule forbidding things from affecting the manifestation, because crystals have a specific rule allowing them to do so.

Another counter argument for -

Weapon Crystals can be targeted and damaged. While we don't know how they can be targeted and damaged, there is a section in the Core book that deals with damaged Weapon Crystals. So they must be some aspect to Weapon Crystals that you can apply effects too.


Matt2VK wrote:
bookrat wrote:

Argument Against: On page 170, it reads, "A crystal within a mote can’t be interacted with in any way other than via abilities that specifically target a mote."

This suggests that fusions don't work with crystals, as fusions don't specifically state that they can target a mote.

--> Counter Argument For: Nothing in the book states that it specifically targets a mote. Not even in the Solarian class. A search for the word 'mote' only shows it on p101 under the description of what a mote is and on p170 under weapon crystals.

That line is about protecting the crystal once it's in a mote, as motes generally can't be targeted.

Argument Against: On p101, it reads, "Only you can interact with your solar manifestation, whether in mote, armor, or weapon form. No other creature or effect can affect your solar manifestation in any way, including disarming or sundering it."

Fusions are an effect and thus cannot be applied.

--> Counter Argument For: Weapon crystals are a violation of this rule. Fusions don't affect the Mote, but rather apply an effect to the weapon crystal, which then can be applied to the mote. You can't attach a fusion directly to the manifestation without applying it to a crystal first. Applying a fusion to a crystal allows you to bypass the general rule forbidding things from affecting the manifestation, because crystals have a specific rule allowing them to do so.

Another counter argument for -

Weapon Crystals can be targeted and damaged. While we don't know how they can be targeted and damaged, there is a section in the Core book that deals with damaged Weapon Crystals. So they must be some aspect to Weapon Crystals that you can apply effects too.

They can be damaged if they aren't in a mote at the time.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My inclination is to say "no", because the Weapon Crystals basically *are* "fusions" being applied to your Solar Weapon. They certainly aren't weapons, unless you plan to hold one in your hand and beat someone over the head with it.


Metaphysician wrote:
My inclination is to say "no", because the Weapon Crystals basically *are* "fusions" being applied to your Solar Weapon. They certainly aren't weapons, unless you plan to hold one in your hand and beat someone over the head with it.

using your same argument, ammunition and other consumables, which weapon fusion clearer states in the rules say that it can be used on, would also be dis-allowed.


Except you do hit people with those, just really fast and only once. If you can put a fusion on a crystal you have a permanent fusion.

Not saying that you can or can't just that metaphysition's argument has merit.


I would say no because of this line in the weapon section:

"Weapons of the same type are of similar size and have similar mechanical properties. Weapon types include basic melee, advanced melee, small arms, longarms, heavy weapons, sniper weapons, grenades, and special weapons. Ammunition and Solarian weapon crystals are also listed here."


While I'd love to see Weapon Fusions being able to add to Weapon Crystals, I'm also in the camp that thinks they aren't allowable.

Course there's also nothing stopping someone with rifle double dipping on weapon fusion but putting one on the rifle and one on the ammo except cost...except I'm not sure how that would work with a battery (started another thread for that).


Hijiggy wrote:

I would say no because of this line in the weapon section:

"Weapons of the same type are of similar size and have similar mechanical properties. Weapon types include basic melee, advanced melee, small arms, longarms, heavy weapons, sniper weapons, grenades, and special weapons. Ammunition and Solarian weapon crystals are also listed here."

Except you can put fusions on ammo.


But there's a fundamental difference, ammo is a temporary bonus. A crystal is a permanent bonus. It basically comes with a fusion or two built in. Ammo doesn't.


Generic weapons come with fusions built in too. Might as well say any weapon that has Severe Wound stock has a free Vorpal fusion.

Crystaled solar weapons are basically identical damage and price wise as advanced CCWs of the same level. It's not like allowing fusions will break them.


While that is true, generic weapons's fusions are tied to those specific weapons with adavtages and disadvantagea that balance things. With carystals you're weapon doesn't really change you are just deciding which fusion you want.


I'm not necessarily against crystals getting fusions, but using ammo as a justification doesn't make sense.


Sure, but frankly the fusions that crystals offer aren't exactly the reason to buy them in comparison to the extra damage dice. Same deal with weapons by and large since the vast majority of them are critical effects. Crits are mostly an amusement or perk rather than any sort of deal breaker (although dismemberment is always a favorite).

Solar weapons have advantages over their physical counterparts, but most of it is under the hood (always on you, one handed, nonpowered, not interactable by other people) rather than strictly in terms of combat. Being able to give your lightsaber a thundering fusion isn't going to break the universe.

Edit: To me the ammo justification basically boils down to "well I can apply fusions to my micro rocket rounds, why can't I slap it onto my photon crystal"

It's a decent arguement to me since if bullets can take it, why can't a crystal which has an item level like everything else.


But there's very little opportunity cost. If I put a fusion ammo, once I use it it's gone. If I put it on a crystal I have it forever. If I upgrade I don't sell that crystal, i keep it in a pocket with 5 other's I've picked up during my career. And if I need entangle I pull that one out and use it and still go good damage because the weapon sets a solid base amount. You get super quick replacement choices no one else would have on a permanent basis.


Same thing with weapons really. I can slap Thundering on my favorite Doshko and once it gets replaced just pass it up the line at 50% or no cost if I have a high end fusion seal.

Frankly that's what I'd do with crystals too. Why bother keeping a low tier crystal when I can just pass the fusion up at a discount?


But I can't carry 5 doshdo's in my pocket...


No, but I can just pass up all my desired fusions to my super doshko. All the advantages, none of the bulk. Same with crystals. I'm not going to keep my Least Graviton Crystal w/Entangling when I have a Minor Boson in hand. I'll just pay some credits to pass Entangling to my Boson.


There's a limit to how much you can do that though. And it would really make sense to have a plethora of level 5 crystals with different damage types, the cost is low, but if I need to bypass a specific ER I just hot swap it AND I still do damage that's reasonable, you can't to that with regular weapons.


Well by and large you don't need to worry about bypassing ER as a solarian since solar weapons are B/P/S and need either a crystal or be using plasma sheathe unattuned (why would you do that?) to go energy otherwise

It's all fairly minor stuff basically. At the extreme best you have a bit of extra versatility over those chumps who use physical stuff.


This is silly.

Solarian Weapon Crystals are classified and described in the equipment chapter in the section on weapons.

=> Solarian Weapon Crystals are weapons.

Weapon Fusions may be applied to any weapon of an appropriate level, unless the Fusion specifies otherwise.

=> Solarian Weapon Crystal + Weapon Fusion = Solarian Weapon Crystal with a Fusion.

It really is that simple.


Deadbeat Doom wrote:

This is silly.

Solarian Weapon Crystals are classified and described in the equipment chapter in the section on weapons.

=> Solarian Weapon Crystals are weapons.

Weapon Fusions may be applied to any weapon of an appropriate level, unless the Fusion specifies otherwise.

=> Solarian Weapon Crystal + Weapon Fusion = Solarian Weapon Crystal with a Fusion.

It really is that simple.

Yup. Pretty much. Of course you can add fusions to Solarian Crystals. If you can't then one of the main book Solarian powers doesn't even work.


Guys,
If you want to argue mechanical balance, then you have to run numbers.
Since the damage numbers for Solarians place them above Soldiers, maybe Weapon Crystals shouldn't get the buff?

If you want to argue CRB placement as proof, that fails because other weapon augmentations (which are not weapons) and special materials for weapons are in that section too.
Since Weapon Crystals augment a weapon, they go in that section.
Since they are augmenting a weapon, and cannot be wielded unto themselves, I would say they aren't a weapon and cannot receive a weapon fusion. An armor Solarian also cannot use them as a weapon, despite having a mote they can place a crystal in.

Hmm...I'd intended to come in as a neutral party and reexamine this objectively (until such time as the developers chime in), but I wound up convincing myself pretty soundly that in no way can or should fusions work on Weapon Crystals. Unless, of course, the developers disagree...


Castilliano wrote:

Guys,

If you want to argue mechanical balance, then you have to run numbers.
Since the damage numbers for Solarians place them above Soldiers, maybe Weapon Crystals shouldn't get the buff?

If you want to argue CRB placement as proof, that fails because other weapon augmentations (which are not weapons) and special materials for weapons are in that section too.
Since Weapon Crystals augment a weapon, they go in that section.
Since they are augmenting a weapon, and cannot be wielded unto themselves, I would say they aren't a weapon and cannot receive a weapon fusion. An armor Solarian also cannot use them as a weapon, despite having a mote they can place a crystal in.

Hmm...I'd intended to come in as a neutral party and reexamine this objectively (until such time as the developers chime in), but I wound up convincing myself pretty soundly that in no way can or should fusions work on Weapon Crystals. Unless, of course, the developers disagree...

Except that Solarian weapon crystals are located in the "weapons" section of that chapter, not the "weapon materials" or "weapon fusions" section. It included getting their own weapon table.


Castilliano wrote:

Guys,

If you want to argue mechanical balance, then you have to run numbers.
Since the damage numbers for Solarians place them above Soldiers, maybe Weapon Crystals shouldn't get the buff?

But Solarion damage hedging out Soldier (narrowly) isn't dependent upon the Solar Weapon's damage. It is because of their Revelations and Photon Attunement. If advanced melee weapons outscale Solar Weapon then Solarion players will just use those instead. Most Solarions will probably already have levels where found advanced melee weapons will be better than their Solar Weapon and none of the Revelations require the Solar Weapon.

Liberty's Edge

Castilliano wrote:

Guys,

If you want to argue mechanical balance, then you have to run numbers.
Since the damage numbers for Solarians place them above Soldiers, maybe Weapon Crystals shouldn't get the buff?

If you want to argue CRB placement as proof, that fails because other weapon augmentations (which are not weapons) and special materials for weapons are in that section too.
Since Weapon Crystals augment a weapon, they go in that section.
Since they are augmenting a weapon, and cannot be wielded unto themselves, I would say they aren't a weapon and cannot receive a weapon fusion. An armor Solarian also cannot use them as a weapon, despite having a mote they can place a crystal in.

Hmm...I'd intended to come in as a neutral party and reexamine this objectively (until such time as the developers chime in), but I wound up convincing myself pretty soundly that in no way can or should fusions work on Weapon Crystals. Unless, of course, the developers disagree...

As Don't go into Power Dome A notes the problem here is that you're just forcing Solarians to use advanced melee weapons other than their Solar Weapon, not actually making a balance change at all. They already do more damage (only a little, but still) add in Weapon Fusions not being allowed on Crystals and there's no sufficient reason to ever use a Solar Weapon.

And that's pretty disappointing. So you've basically made the game less fun for no reason.


Deadmanwalking wrote:


As Don't go into Power Dome A notes the problem here is that you're just forcing Solarians to use advanced melee weapons other than their Solar Weapon, not actually making a balance change at all. They already do more damage (only a little, but still) add in Weapon Fusions not being allowed on Crystals and there's no sufficient reason to ever use a Solar Weapon.

And that's pretty disappointing. So you've basically made the game less fun for no reason.

Exactly this. Ignore solarian vs soldier damage numbers, that's irrelevant to this argument. Looking solely at advanced melee weapon compared to the solar weapon WITH a equal level crystal equipped and the price and damage is always roughly equivalent, with the two-handed advanced melee weapons almost always being the winner.

So if advanced melee weapons do more damage at the same price point, and nothing in RAW straight up denies weapon crystals having fusions, why would you deny solarian players this option? Why make their defining class feature objectively inferior to standard weapons, when allowing it simply lets them stay on par? As DMW said, you're just making the game less fun for no good reason.

Dark Archive

This problem has a easy fix gang..... Super glue lots of super glue. >_> I do feel that putting a weapon enchantment on a weapon accessory is a bit silly. But than I tried to grappler a spaceship out a airlock so I'm on the side of fun


Deadmanwalking wrote:


As Don't go into Power Dome A notes the problem here is that you're just forcing Solarians to use advanced melee weapons other than their Solar Weapon, not actually making a balance change at all. They already do more damage (only a little, but still) add in Weapon Fusions not being allowed on Crystals and there's no sufficient reason to ever use a Solar Weapon.

Well you could argue the soft stuff like immunity to sunder/disarm, independence from batteries, and always being on you is sufficient reason to take the weapon.

That and the swag factor and ability to make rude gestures at the enemy with your free hand.


I have little preference either way since I see fusions as secondary, if not tertiary, in importance when it comes to spending. But Weapon Crystals augment a weapon. It adds damage to a Solarian's weapon and in no way can it be used to do damage on its own. It seems clear that a fusion does not go on an augmentation, so does not go on a Weapon Crystal.

This is not saying Solarian's do or don't deserve fusions.

Why aren't supporters arguing that one could put a fusion on the mote itself? It's what becomes the weapon, so that actually makes more sense to me. It also shakes off the complaint that it's too easy for a Solarian to switch out fusions. Of course, there's no tech level...

But what fusions are people thinking Solarians need in order to be competitive with Soldiers? Or as fun as Soldiers?
As Tarik pointed out, Solarian weapons have many cool mechanical advantages over other melee weapons. If we are playing the fairness game, shouldn't other melee weapons have access to those abilities too?
Or maybe each should keep to their own lanes?
Except we don't know if there are or aren't supposed to be any lanes!
We really need the designers' input, as they've done the crunching & theorycrafting. FAQ indeed...


You can't put fusions on a note because notes don't have an item level, and fusion rules sort of need one for them to work properly.


A lot of the new discussion seems to be rehashing the points made in the opening post and following posts outlining the general arguments.

It may be beneficial to go back and read the Arguments For, Arguments Against, and Counter Arguments presented.


Castilliano wrote:

I have little preference either way since I see fusions as secondary, if not tertiary, in importance when it comes to spending. But Weapon Crystals augment a weapon. It adds damage to a Solarian's weapon and in no way can it be used to do damage on its own. It seems clear that a fusion does not go on an augmentation, so does not go on a Weapon Crystal.

This is not saying Solarian's do or don't deserve fusions.

Why aren't supporters arguing that one could put a fusion on the mote itself? It's what becomes the weapon, so that actually makes more sense to me. It also shakes off the complaint that it's too easy for a Solarian to switch out fusions. Of course, there's no tech level...

But what fusions are people thinking Solarians need in order to be competitive with Soldiers? Or as fun as Soldiers?
As Tarik pointed out, Solarian weapons have many cool mechanical advantages over other melee weapons. If we are playing the fairness game, shouldn't other melee weapons have access to those abilities too?
Or maybe each should keep to their own lanes?
Except we don't know if there are or aren't supposed to be any lanes!
We really need the designers' input, as they've done the crunching & theorycrafting. FAQ indeed...

Right now RAW you can add a fusion to a crystal as they are defined as a weapon and they have item levels.

You can't add a fusion to the Solar Mote as they have no item level.

If, and I say this bluntly, they make it so that you can't add fusions to Solar Weapons - You'll see my guide change accordingly as Solar Weapon will be the statistically inferior choice to just using a 2 hander.

As it stands the 2-hander does more damage and has the same benefit of a Solar Weapon with the Solar Crystal installed.

There is also the issue that the Solar Crystals cost as much as full weapons do.


HWalsh wrote:


As it stands the 2-hander does more damage and has the same benefit of a Solar Weapon with the Solar Crystal installed.

There is also the issue that the Solar Crystals cost as much as full weapons do.

Crystals actually err toward being a little cheaper than their immediate counterparts. Not by a super significant amount mind you, but there is a semi decent discount by and large plus any savings on batteries.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
HWalsh wrote:


As it stands the 2-hander does more damage and has the same benefit of a Solar Weapon with the Solar Crystal installed.

There is also the issue that the Solar Crystals cost as much as full weapons do.

Crystals actually err toward being a little cheaper than their immediate counterparts. Not by a super significant amount mind you, but there is a semi decent discount by and large plus any savings on batteries.

Where is this decent discount you speak of?

At ilevel 8, the three options for solar crystals cost between 9.2 and 9.8k. The melee weapons for ilevel 8 range between 8.5 and 10k.

At ilevel 11 the crystals cost between 24k an 26.2k. The melee weapons range between 22.6k and 26.3k.

At ilevel 14 the crystals run between 69.8k to 81.3k and the melee weapons run at 64.4k to 79.5k.

So when you actually compare the most expensive crystals vs the most expensive melee weapon at various ilevels, you see that the price difference is extremely close, and sometimes it's the melee weapons that are cheaper. And when you compare the cheapest options, the melee weapons are almost always cheaper.

There is a saving on batteries, but that is going to be a negligible cost as players level up, loot piles of batteries from enemies, and get a ship able to charge them for free.

I don't see any valid argument that the solar weapon saves a meaningful amount of money over the course of a standard game.


I'll run some numbers now. Same levels. In the case of Gluons, Plasma Doshkos will be used when possible because SF clearly values Severe Wound heavily.

L5 Crystals

Grav- 2900
Phot-2950
Bos-3050

L5 Adv Melee
Tac Cryopike: 3600
Tac Swoophammer: 3360

L6 Gluon-3900

L6 Plasma Doshko-4650

L8 Crystals

Grav- 9200
Pho- 9300
Bos- 9800

L8 Adv Melee
Blaze Flame Doshko- 8500

L9 Gluon-11500

L9 Adv Pike(12200), Adv Swoop (14300)

L11
Grav- 24000
Pho- 25100
Bos-26200

L11 Adv Melee
Ultra Thin Doshko-24600

L12 Gluon-30800

L12 Adv Cryopike(34800)

L14
Grav-69800
Pho-71200
Bos-81300

14 Adv Melee
Zero Edge Doshko- 71500

L15 Gluon-94200

L15 Plasma Doshko-126800

L17
Grav- 251000
Pho-246000
Bos-274100

L17 Adv Melee
Rift Doshko-248000
Mach 2 Swoop-273000

L18 Gluon- 330300

L18 Plasma Doshko 364000

L20
Grav- 727100
Pho- 7295000
Bos-806000
Glu- 916200

L20 Adv Melee
Dimensional Curve- 815000
Mach 3 Swoop- 905700

Basically, compared to all other 2H adv melee (where solar weapons hit comparibly to), crystals are overall cheaper with the exception of when you're using gluons and not using a comparable plasma doshko (when they're both on par, the crystals are cheaper). Outliers exist at 11, 14, 17 but that's a small sample size and unwieldy melee weapons for comparison.

Scarab Sages Starfinder Design Lead

11 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 45 people marked this as a favorite.

Yes, you can add fusions (or even fusion seals) to solarian weapon crystals.

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