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I like your ideas but it’s difficult to make them work. Consider that the lunar weapon does less damage than the solar sword. Broken Cycle Graviton also means forgoing important Solarian revelations like Stellar Rush, Soul Furnace, and Plasma Sheath. You’ve selected a low damage output build for a class designed for melee combat.

To make a viable character, you must work around these limitations. Raise your +hit as high as possible so you hit more often. Maximize dexterity and take feats like weapon focus. High dex gives you more AC, initiative, and reflex, there is no reason not to have an 18. Going into melee with an eight con is a bad idea. You can’t hit the opponent when you’re unconscious. Do you need to play a Yoski? Your best bet is a race that dumps wisdom, like a Damai. With a standard build, you can have 10 str, 18 dex, 10 con, 10 int, 8 wis, 16 cha. They also have nice abilities.

Heavy landing can give you 1 or 2 extra d6 damage. You’ll want to get that every round but leaping with Defy Gravity gives opponents an attack of opportunity when you move. How about Tidal Surge instead? You can leap over your opponent every round, getting the Heavy Landing damage along with +2 to hit with Tidal Surge. If you take the Jet Dash feat and leapers for the armor slot, at 6th level you can jump a minimum of about 12 feet straight up without a running start.

If you’re going full Graviton, you might also consider taking Dark Matter or Gravitic Reinforcement instead of Eclipse Defense. Eclipse Defense is bad. Gravity Anchor is a great way to shut down casters. What about Gravity Boost? At sixth level you can spider climb up walls and drop onto your opponent. I might go with something like this:

Level 1. Feat: weapon focus
Level 2. Revelation: Gravity Anchor (for shutting down casters)
Level 3. Feat: Fleet
Level 4. Revelation: Heavy Landing
Level 5. Feat: Jet Dash
Level 6. Revelation: Tidal Surge.
Level 7. Feat: Coordinated Shot
Level 8. Revelation: Dark Interaction
Level 9. Revelation: Gravitic Reinforcement (+2 to all saves), Feat: Deflect Projectiles.

Instead of Weapon Orbit, consider getting the Extra Manifestation alternate class feature at 9th level and grab Solar Flare.

Level 10: Revelation: Stealth Warp
Level 11: Feat: Defensive Roll

Consider taking the Space Pirate theme. If the campaign goes long and you hit level 12, you can use Sword and Pistol to get two attacks for a standard action. It pairs great with Stealth Warp. I’m late for the party, but I hope you see this.

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Corwin Icewolf wrote:

A lot of people in playtest, myself included, wanted level to really matter, and as a result pretty much anything 3 or more levels lower than you is a bug to be stepped on.

PF2E does reward specialization less than 1E though. Mainly in that using the same tactic in all situations ever is eventually not going to work. But also there's a lot less of x stat to y going on.

It's a difference in design philosophy. Paizo games are very player centric. Pathfinder is about building a fun powerful alter ego to explore the world, gain experience, and earn cool treasures and magic items. That's a lot of fun and why the game is so popular. Players don't want their alter ego to die, and Pathfinder accommodates that. The stakes in Pathfinder are low. It’s rare that a player is on the edge of their seat, knowing everything depends on the next die roll.

This makes Pathfinder a lot of fun for players, but in my opinion, it's a chore to run. There are generally no setbacks in Pathfinder, which makes for a boring story. Since a GM doesn't have a character to play, the story is all they got. I think this is why they must give GMs all sorts of perks to run games in Pathfinder Society.

Right now, I’m running an old school game in which it’s easy to die. Combat is deadly, so players avoid it when they can, or they plan so they have an advantage. They’re trying to rescue villagers taken prisoner by a kind of lizard men. They know a frontal assault is suicide because they tried that in another adventure and lost a character. As a GM, I’m excited to see what they come up with next session. The stakes are real, and they could party wipe with bad planning or bad luck. In a Pathfinder game, they’d just run into the cave and use some power or another to win and I, the GM, would be bored to tears.

I'm not judging though. I enjoy both styles of play, but I’d love to see this sort of dynamic in a game supported by Paizo. Too bad they don’t make one.

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Kobold Catgirl wrote:

I'm honestly not a huge fan of the kitchen sink approach, though I think it's very clever from a marketing perspective.

I agree. Kitchen sink worlds allow game companies to publish material for different genres and sub genres without having to build entire worlds around them. It just seems kind of dumb to me. When I ran my games I told the players that places like Numaria are only rumored to exist, and probably don't. I soft banned inappropriate magic items.

"No, your cleric cannot have nanotechnology."

Unfortunately, some players see this as an imposition because an entire build can be predicated on a specific magic item or enchantment. A high dexterity fighter absolutely needed the agile weapon enchantment or had to wait until 3rd or 5th level to get the Slashing Grace feat. I've always considered that a flaw in the game. Maybe they fixed stuff like that in 2nd ed.

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I’ve tried to persuade my RPG group to try Pathfinder 2nd ed. Although they played 1st on and off for ten years, they won’t try it. A couple played 2nd ed at cons and had several complaints. A bit later, one member tried running Starfinder, but we only got through the first book before the game died for reasons cited below.

1. The game is too easy. Most encounters are trivial, and bosses quickly overcome. It’s rare for experienced players to die and if they do, the Raise Dead spell is common. I feel bad for Pharasma. I ran two full adventure paths (CotCT and Carrion Crown) and I consistently had to buff encounters. This in turn made characters level faster which messed up progression.

2 Progression is too steep. A fifth level character can fight 1st level villains all day without breaking a sweat. We have been playing OSR games with flatter curves and have been much happier.

3. Character design rewards specialization too much. It makes one-trick-ponies effective, but also boring to play. Why not have strength do damage and use a combination of other stats for hit bonuses? Our current game does this and I like it better.

4. Golarian is bland and broad. It’s like visiting Disneyland. You can fight the generic evil empire by visiting Cheliax town, Eqyptland for exotic pyramid adventures. Ustaluv is scary and Numeria is Conan vs. The robots from space. It’s a kitchen sink world and I want something more thematic, like Ebberon or Scarred Lands.

I am aware that some of these concerns have been addressed and I’m currently going through the forums to see what has changed. I like how heritages can give a min-max'ed fighter something to do outside of combat.

I’ve always liked Paizo games. I love how easy it is to run adventure paths and how well supported they are with supplementary material. I'll keep reading through these threads. Maybe enough has changed to entice my players to come back.

Claxon wrote:
no one should use small arms (except operatives)

I was thinking about playing a pistol dancer soldier, but the small arms penalty to weapon specialization really hurts the build.

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I agree with everything you said and would like to add a couple of thoughts.

1. The game is too dependent on equipment drops. Because acquired items can be sold for only 10 or 20% of value, you are pretty much limited to what you find. Does your melee soldier want a cool two handed sword? Well forget about it, because he's stuck with the Doshko dropped by the Vesk you fought.

2. Money is poorly balanced and is used to replace class features rather than enhance them. A mystic might buy a jet pack to replace a fly spell because of their limited selection and slots, even though it might make no sense for a magic based character. Why not have a system other than money - something like karma or prestige - to allow characters to purchase advantages more in tune with their themes.

3. Armor is unrealistic and dumb. You have to wear armor everywhere, for everything. Flying through space- Armor. Visiting a planet - Armor. Dinner at Applebees - Armor. Most heroes in science fiction universes don't even use armor. In Starfinder, you sleep in it.

3. Fixes are slapped onto design failures like bandages. Half of Solarians found their class stat of charisma useless. The designers shoehorned in the Soulfire fusion to make charisma marginally more useful.

I think Starfinder really needs a 2nd edition to fix these holes and a deign philosophy more in tune with a space based science fantasy setting. There are a lot of things I do like about Starfinder, but if I could, I would choose something else for my gaming group until all the problems listed on this thread were addressed.

HammerJack wrote:

There is the level 8 Guarded fusion.

I like the Guarded Fusion. Too bad it wouldn't come into play until later in the game.

What I really want to do is play a dex based Solarian that can fight in melee. I was thinking that if you can avoid AoO's, you could make your solarian flare look like a spear or something, then use it in both melee and for ranged attacks. Granted, you wouldn't get the +strength to damage, but you could make up for that with Plasma Sheath and Soulfire. You make up for pure melee damage with a versatility weapon that synergizes well with other Solarian revaluations.

Too bad there is no way to lower the level of the fusion. The only other disadvantage I see is you couldn't use the flare to make your own attacks of oppoutunity.

Is there any way to prevent attacks of opportunity when you use a Solarian flare in melee combat? Maybe a fusion or something? Would a level of soldier and SMALL ARM TANGO work?

kaid wrote:

Also if you dip mystic you could potentially get a solar weapon from this and armor or the ranged option or shield from solarian. So if somebody really wants two options at once they can do it.

My game master is letting us rebuild our character using COG options. I'm seriously considering taking a level of mystic for a sword and shield combo flavored as a double-bladed lightsaber for my Solarian Jedi wannabe.

Xenocrat wrote:


The most commonly used credit costing spells, of course, are instantaneous and would be free. That includes Animate Dead, Reincarnation, and Raise Dead.

The "can be made permanent" spells are things like Implant Data and Planar Barrier.

Creating undead armies just became feasible for 13th level Technomancers/Mystics, and elite special forces or mercenaries can keep their guys around through high risk missions relatively cheaply if they've got a 16th level Mystic/Witchwarper on staff. It's a real shame that Terraform is 6th level and can't qualify for this feat, it's such a cool yet entirely useless spell.

Good catch, but I don't think the designers intended to make Adaptive Casting that powerful.

Several game breaking abilities, combinations and rules in the COM have been discovered. Despite the extensive play-test, the expansion may not have gone through a thorough QA. I'll give it a few weeks then check the Starfinder Society additional resources page. They often prohibit broken abilities in their games.

Minimight wrote:

From the description, it sounds like additional manifestations either from Extra Manifestations or Solar Connection come as their own mote. Basically, each solar manifestation gives you a mote, and each mote has a mote mode and an active mode. Motes aren't interchangeable, so you'd need a crystal for each mote you wanted to enhance.

I think you're right, which means that you'd have to buy a crystal for each mote. Since I'm 9th level, I was thinking about taking solar shield as an extra manifestation, but the added expense makes it less appealing.

By dipping mystic, you wouldn't have to wait to be fully attuned to summon your 2nd manifestation and you wouldn't need a crystal for the shield since you'd always have your sword ready. As a GM I'd be hesitant to allow this as it seems clear the game designers intended only solar weapon manifestation levels to stack.

Garretmander wrote:
Personally I was warmonger connection, power armor, and be able to switch hit between the flare and the weapon, downsides including power armor and needing two solarian crystals.

Do you need two crystals if you have multiple manifestations? Since a crystal is inserted into the mote, I would think it would work with both your sword and flare.

Garretmander wrote:
One level dip for a max level solar weapon alongside another near max level other manifestation is pretty good after all.

If your GM allows progression and a second manifestation for a one level mystic dip, I can see it being useful in a couple of builds. Ranged or battlefield controller solarians can use the sword as a backup weapon. For a melee solarian, heavy armor is better than the armor manifestation and the solar shield is next to useless since you cant use it and make full attacks.

An sword and board solarian would be a lot of fun, but current mechanics do not support a viable build.

Garrett Larghi wrote:
Well darn. That would be at least three combat rounds. Hmmmmmnn

It could be argued that a mystic with the Solar Connection and levels as a solarian could have another manifestation in addition to a solar weapon. The epiphany states, "If you have levels in both classes you add them together to determine the effectiveness of your solar weapon." It doesn't specify that the solarian must also have the solar weapon manifestation. Good luck getting that past a competent GM though.

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Look at the Solarian guides. I recommend the SF Guide, which is excellent (though outdated).

If you are going balanced, I think it’s important to have revelations that are useful in both modes. Stellar Rush is essential for any melee Solarian and it’s useful in both modes. Glow of Life gives fewer hit point in graviton but can keep you in the fight while you’re waiting on your healer and Soul Furnace is a must have at 10th. Defy Gravity and Gravity Boost are also useful but are considered inferior revelations by many players. These revelations all have great action economy, which means you get more attacks with that sweet weapon manifestation.

You might want to consider only one “activate as a move action” revelation for each mode, especially if you plan to use your zenith revelations (Supernova is very good). I really like Gravitic Reinforcement because poisons and disease with kill you in Starfinder. Solarians have poor saves and you can't use resolve to cure afflictions. Plasma Sheath, Corona, and Blazing Orbit are all good damage multipliers. I like Plasma Sheath the best, but all of them are good.

You might consider this revelation order: 2nd Stellar Rush (photon), 4th Gravitic Reinforcement (graviton), 6th Plasma Sheath or Glow of Life if your healer sucks (photon), 8th Defy Gravity/Blade in the Night/ Draining Agony (graviton), 10th Soul Furnace (photon). You may want to consider Hypnotic Glow (photon) depending on how much non-combat role-playing you'll do.

Anyways, hope that helps.

Ascalaphus wrote:

I think the big choice you have to make with a solarian is whether you're going to use powers that work as long as you stay attuned, such as Plasma Sheath and Corona. Because if you do that, you don't want to lean on zenith revelations and Periastra Strike doesn't do anything for you.

I play a Solarian tank, heavily use Corona, Plasma Sheath and Stellar Rush. I've got unbalanced revelations but because I never want to nova, that doesn't matter.

Regarding your build, what about Step Up And Strike?

I think a tank build benefits more from graviton attunement so I skipped Plasma Sheath and Corona. The attunement benefit of Stellar Rush is minor, while both Glow of Life and Soul Furnace are useful without attunement.

Standard combat tactics might be:

Round one: solar attunement, move to the target, pop Solar Acceleration for full attack and haste

Round two: graviton, Gravitic Reinforcement and single attack

Round three, four, etc. : move and full attack

Stay graviton attuned until I need Starquake, to avoid aoo's for example.

Finally, I don't feel Step up and Strike is useful because once GM's know you have Step Up, enemy casters will never take guarded steps again - well at least every Pathfinder and Starfinder GM I've ever played with.

Matt2VK wrote:

My opinion, while decent it's kind of lacking when you compare it to the Solarian offensive abilities.

I think I'd go Solarian Armor over the Shield just because of the energy type resistances that can be picked up, swapped out.

My biggest complaint (after the lack of 6 skill ranks per level) is the lack of defensive solarian crystals that work defensively in Armor & Shield.

That would be awesome. I would like to expand on that idea and see "solarian" armor that worked with the armor manifestation. Maybe you couldn't use normal upgrades, but you could insert crystals that made revelations a little better, or gave you a small bonus to your KAC/EAC so solarian melee fighters wouldn't feel obliged take the heavy armor feat.

The designers would have to be careful to keep it balanced, but I think it would make the class more flavorful and fun to play.

I was thinking about switching to solar shield, but I don't think it's that much better than what you can buy.

Our GM is allowing character rebuilds using options from the COG. I play a 9th level Solarian tank and I’m planning to change some revelations, feats. Here is one possible build. What do you guys think?

Human with the solar weapon manifestation

Level 1 Feats: Heavy Armor proficiency, Weapon Focus (advanced melee weapons)

Level 2 Revelation: Stellar Rush

Level 3 Feat: Step up

Level 4 Revelation: Gravitic Reinforcement (bonuses to saves)

Level 5 Feat: Enhanced Resistance: Kinetic

Level 6 Revelation: Glow of Life (not entirely certain about this)

Level 7 Feat: Coordinated Shoot

Level 8 Revelation: either Defy Gravity, Blade in the Night, or maybe Draining Agony

Level 9 Feat: Periastra Training; Zenith Revelations: Solar Acceleration / StarQuake

Level 10 Revelation: Soul Furnace

Level 11 ???

Our party includes an envoy, a technomancer, an operative, and an NPC mystic. Since I’m playing the tank, I need those nice save bonuses from Gravitic Reinforcements and I plan to enter most combats graviton attuned. If the monsters don’t have attacks that require saves, I can switch to solar to max damage. I want my revelations balanced so I can use Periastra Training for 1st turn Solar Acceleration.

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I read a lot of threads requesting better support of ranged Solarians, and boy did they get that. The Solar Flare is great, and with revelations like Agile Wavelengths, Distant Burst and Gravity Pulse, you can be a very effective battlefield controller. Gravitic Calling and Solar Incursion are just cake.

I really like the Distant Burst revelation. It looks like you can combine it with Black Hole for battlefield control. Also, a short-range fireball every three turns is nice.

I play a melee Solarian in our game and I'm really liking Gravity Reinforcement. That alone is enough to keep me graviton attuned. I just wish they'd made the Extra Manifestation and/or solar shield a little better. Heavy armor is still a feat tax for melee builds.

So, I personally don't like the idea of playing a heavy armor solarian and I think that with a little tweaking, a solarian could be played as a lightly armored yet effective front-line fighter. This type of solarian uses revelations and tricks instead of heavy armor to survive and deal damage, the equivalent of a pathfinder monk. With special abilities like flashing strikes and solarian onslaught, I envision this solarian as more capable against several mid-level foes and less effective against high level “boss” monsters, again like a pathfinder monk. This isn’t to say I would have a problem with a player who wants a heavy hitting solarian, I just like having another option.

About a month ago I created a thread on reddit starfinder_rpg suggesting a homebrew revelation that would enhance the survivability of a lightly armored front line solarian. I got a lot of excellent feedback. That along with several more game sessions have helped me fine tune this idea:

Gravitational Influence (graviton).

You use your connection with the gradational tides of the universe to avoid damaging attacks. As a move action, you may increase the enhancement bonus of your solar armor equal to one-half of your charisma bonus, minimum one, divided evenly as possible between you KAC and EAC. This bonus lasts 1 turn or until you leave graviton mode.

When you are attuned or fully attuned, this bonus increases to your charisma bonus, minimum one, divided evenly between your KAC and EAC.

Thus, a solarian with an 18 charisma would improve their solar armor by +1 KAC and +1 EAC. In graviton mode, this bonus would equal +2 KAC and +2 EAC. This, along with the solar armor bonus would give a little less protection than wearing heavy armor.

You would also have the advantages of wearing light armor including better movement and little to no skill penalty. This, along with the solar armor fire/cold resistances might make this revelation too powerful.

Disadvantages include a lower AC at the beginning of combat and during surprise rounds. This revelation would also increase the need to stay in graviton mode, reducing damage output and opportunities to use photon revelations such as plasma sheath and corona. You end up giving up a lot of damage. Finally, since this only works with solar armor, a melee solarian loses the increased damage from the soul fire fusion.

Overall, I think the benefits and disadvantages of a build with this revelation are equivalent. You trade better damage for better defenses. I also like the flavor of this revelation. This solarian uses cool matrix like dodges to avoid damage rather than absorbing hits with heavy armor.

So, what do you guys think?

I would really like to see them fix the solarian class. I think the intent was to create a versatile melee class that relied on multiple stats and nifty monk-like abilities during combat. Instead an effective solarian build mirrors a blitz soldier build and fills basically the same role in combat.

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I’m building a human arcanist for a four player Mummy’s Mask campaign. My stats are str 9, dex 14, con 14, Int 18 (16+2 adjustment), wis 12, cha 15. My group rolls for ability scores.

The rest of the group consists of a bloodrager, oracle, and a swashbuckler. Since we are a smaller group with one front line fighter, I’ve decided to go with the occultist archetype and focus on summoning. The concept is a failed apprentice who fell back on his sorcerous ability, mixing his wizard training with his innate magical abilities. He’s an opportunist willing to bargain with otherworldly forces for power.

1st Level: Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning
Exploit: Conjuror’s Focus (as per archetype)
Traits: Reactionary (+2 init) and Suspicious (+1 sense motive, class skill)

3rd Level Feat: Superior Summons
Exploit: Dimensional Slide

5th Level Feat: Extra Arcane Exploit, Consume Magic Item
Exploit: Quick Study

7th level Feat: Not sure
Exploit: Planar Contact (as per Occultist)

9th level: Feat: Not sure
Exploit: Potent Magic

11th level Feat: Extra Exploit, Greater Metamagic Knowledge
Exploit: Metamagic Knowledge (Quicken Spell)

I was thinking of taking Scribe Scroll instead of Dimensional Slide at third level, but I’ll probably need the Slide for survivability. As to my 7th and 9th level feats, I’m thinking that one will be an item creation feat and one will be a survival feat such as toughness or combat casting. I haven’t even thought about what to take at 13th and 15th because the campaign probably won’t last that long.

What do you think?

Thanks for the help everyone. It seems I have an answer to my question.

Dispari Scuro wrote:
It's also worth noting that while the feat appeared in the tiefling book, there's no feat referenced in the aasimar or dhampir books (which also allow alternates). Seems like it slipped in by mistake, or they later changed their mind on needing a feat to get different ability scores.

I read through Blood of Fiends and didn't see the Fiendish Heratage feat. Did I miss it?

No, this character is for a non PFS champaign. The DM is confused and thinks I still need the Fiendish Heritage feat from the old Council of Thieves adventure path to play a tiefling with the pit born heritage. As far as I know, this feat is no longer applicable since the Blood of Fiends splat book.

What I'm looking for is official confirmation from the designers that the Fiendish Heritage feat is no longer needed.

I’m playing a tiefling with the pit-born heritage from the Blood of Fiends Player Companion book. Our DM thinks that I still need the Fiendish Heritage feat, from the old Council of Thieves Adventure Path #25. Is there a rules clarification I can show to my DM to prove I don’t need the feat? I checked the FAQ page but couldn’t find a listing for Blood of Fiends, and there is nothing applicable under the ARG.

Our GM’s kind of a rules lawyer so I need something “official”. Also, he won’t accept a ruling simply because it’s PFS legal. Thanks.

We roll for our stats, 4d6 drop the lowest. I got the following: 17, 16, 16, 15, 13, 13. These are the best stats I’ve ever rolled at this table. What should I play? Thought about a paladin but lots of players play neutral or chaotic, and I’m not into lawful good anyhow. What else would the wonderful folks on the advice forum recommend? Also, our GM is a stickler for the rules so everything must come from a book; no PRD only or third party materials.

I’m going to play an aasimar paladin/sorcerer/dragon disciple for Pathfinder Society and I’m selecting the feats for my build. The angel blood and angel flesh feats look interesting. Angle flesh gives +2 saves on effects with the evil descriptor which is situational and a +2 on stabilization rolls which is situational but very useful. The steel version of angel flesh gives a +1 natural armor and natural attacks count as cold steel, both of which are great for a dragon disciple. I’m thinking about the following build:

1st level: angel blood
3rd level: angel flesh
5th level: arcane strike
7th level: Power attack from DD, Intimidating prowess
9th level: Cornugon Smash
10th level: Toughness from DD
11th level: ??
What do you guys think?

I used Oterisk’s amazing DD guide to help with the build but his feat recommendations don’t really work in PFS. Claws from the abyssal bloodline via eldritch heritage don’t trigger the free dragon disciple bite attack, and since PFS characters max out at level 12th (or maybe 13th) level, the +2 strength of the abyss I’d get via improved eldritch heritage doesn’t seem worth the three feat investments.

I thought so. Thank you.

If a sorcerer with the Abyssal or Draconic bloodlines uses the sorcerous bloodstike feat to recharge his claws bloodline power, how many rounds of extra claw use does he get?

I ask because I'm not sure what constitutes a "use" of the claw ability. Does a use consist of a single round or the total number of rounds he uses claws (up to his maximum)?

This is for a PFS character btw so I want to be sure on the rules.

Thanks for all your great advice everyone. Let me preface this by asking how the Pathfinder Society could allow aasimar and tieflings as playable races. Both seem unbalanced, with bonuses far in excess of most of the other races. That being said, after considering the advice of the responders I’ve amended my builds.

I like the idea of a tiefling dragon disciple because it seems more dragon-like, but I like the advantages of the aasimar paladin. I’m also thinking it’s better to go with a two or three level dip for a better hybrid. I considered the bard, but it really doesn’t really fit my play style.

Option 1: tiefling half dragon/ half demon – with a bite attack.
Stats: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16 (using the demon-blooded tiefling variant)

Traits: magical Knack (it’s legal for pfs now), Birthmark.

1. Barbarian (invulnerable, savage, or maybe elemental king), Feat: Armor of the pit +2 natural armor
2. Sorcerer 1(dragon, straight up)
3. Barbarian 2 rage power: claws, Feat: Extra rage or intimidating prowess
4. Barbarian 3
5. Sorcerer 2
6. DD 1, Feat: skill focus Knowledge (planes)

I’m not really sure about this build. A third level of barbarian gives me two extra rounds of rage, +1 bab, +3 hp and a nifty power, but it also means I get slower spell progression and bloodline powers. I think this guy as mostly gish, buffing himself then charging into battle. I also took Bomanz's advice and lowered my strength so I could be better rounded for PFS with higher int for skills and three instead of four barb levels.

Option 2: The Pallydragon: ½ angel born aasimar ½ gold dragon.
Stats and traits: same

1. Paladin (divine hunter archetype), not sure what feats to take.
2. Paladin for Divine Grace
3. Sorcerer 1 (etc.)

This would be a more sorcerer based build and I would get some ranged touch attack spells to take advantage of my free divine hunter precise shot feat. I thought about going tiefling with this build for the bite attack and getting better claws with the eldritch heritage feats, and because I want this guy to look like he’s ½ dragon. He claims his looks are from his dragon heritage; his tiefling heritage is a dark secret. This might be better for a home campaign - in PFS it might just seem silly.

Question: If I take elemental Kin, do I get the extra rage if the damage is absorbed by my resistances?

Thanks for your response, I used your guide to help me with this build. One reason I took cross blooded was to get the +2 charisma teifling racial bonus and you need the abyssal or diabolic bloodline for that. I also took them to get the bite attack, and the cross blooded power to increase the claws by six rounds later in on. The +2 charisma gets me an extra 3rd level spell level, but then again, that won't be useful until I hit around 10th level.

OTOH, I don't know if it's worthwhile to spend two feats for five more rounds of claws.

Perhaps this build would be better if I did only a two level melee class dip. Say, fighter for two levels. Then the extra charisma makes more sense....but then the loss of a spell hurts even more and the -2 will save isn't mitigated by the +2 will save rage bonus. Grrr, I can't win.

It seems dragon disciple is a difficult class to efficiently build while staying thematically consistent.

I’ve been trying to put together a Dragon Disciple for Society organized play. I want him to kinda look like a dragon to start, and then build into the class.

Concept: it’s the unholy hell spawn of Smog and Lamashtu!

Origin: An underworld mixer, an open bar and poor judgment.

Race: Teifling. With the Maw alternate racial trait for a bite attack.

Stats: Build with Str 16, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 8, and Cha 12. With racial bonuses this changes to Str: 18, Int 8, and Cha 14 (I’m going with the Demon Spawn option from Paths of Blood, which is legal).

Traits: Magical Knack (for sorcerer levels), Birthmark (+2 saves vs. charm and compulsion).

1st level: Barbarian 1: Invulnerable Rager Archetype – Feat: Armor of the pit (+2 natural armor)
2nd level: Sorcerer 1 Crossblooded Archetype (Abyssal, Draconic)
3rd level: Barbarian 2: Rage Power: Claws – Feat: Arcane Strike
4th level: Barbarian 3:
5th Barbarian 4: Rage Power – Fiend totem (for gore attack), Feat: Intimidating prowess
6th DD 1, etc.

Notes: I needed to go with a minimum eight intelligence so I would have the skill points I need for the prestige class.

I pick up a wand of mage armor and by third level I have a claw, claw, bite attack with +8 attack (+2 bab, +6 str), each with d6+7 (+6 str, +1 arcane strike). Before combat I can buff myself with shocking grasp for an extra 3d6 if any of my attacks land (3d6+3 if I choose blue dragon archetype). In theory, if everything were to hit for max damage, I could move into combat and pump out 60 points of damage on the first round of an encounter.

My armor class is a meager sixteen (+4 mage armor with wand, +2 dex, +2 natural armor, -2 rage) but I’ll have 6 extra hp from the rage and a DR of 1 (Invulnerable Rager).

I think the character scales well with lots of HP and nifty bonuses from the dragon disciple prestige class and the versatility of the cross blood archetype (although the -1 spell known per level hurts).

What do you guys think? Is this a legal build? Are there any suggestions on improvement? Is this build too abusive?

Matrix Dragon wrote:

Use concealment. Mirror Image, Blur, Invisibility, Displacement will all cause bombs to miss. The target will probably still get splash damage, but it is better than getting hit directly.

There are also spells that specifically block ranged attacks, such as Fickle Winds and Wind Wall.

Wind wall has only a 30% chance to deflect a bomb, not that exciting. Displacement seems a bit better.


Nearly every time I see somebody bring up a "How do I" or "X is Imbalanced" on any non full caster it really comes down to GMs or players not really grasping the ruleset. Not even just the optimization side, just straight "works as intended" levels of power.

Your right. Sadly, the more I grasp the ruleset, the less I like it.

There are lots of good ideas here, thanks. I guess my big complaint about force bomb damage is how it circumvents any type of intrinsic defense. I'm glad that as of the next printing, DR will affect force damage.

One of the characters in my campaign is an overpowered alchemist. What stops bombs? DR doesn't work, spell resistance doesn't work, immunities don't work (he uses force bombs), and AC doesn't work because he uses touch attacks. The damn things do massive damage and he throws three a turn. I can't stop him from killing my best villains in a single round or two. It's insane and frankly ruining the game for everyone else.

I think it's ridiculous that an alchemist is better at blasting than a wizard or a sorcerer.

What happens if a dispel magic is successfully cast on a Efreeti Bottle and not the Efreeti itself? According to the spell description, "the item's magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers its magical properties". Does this free the Efreeti to go to his home plane? Does this force him back into the bottle so he can be summoned again? One of my players managed to do this tonight by blowing a harrow card and a fate point to get +16 on his level check.

As the GM, I obviously get to make the ruling, but I’m really interested in knowing what the rules say about this?

Jeraa wrote:

1) No. Its ability functions like the Ethereal Jaunt spell, which only affects the caster and his equipment. A dead body could be considered equipment, but a living (or undead) creature is not.

2) No. It is neither a force effect, nor an abjuration. The ability does not say it can cross planar boundaries, so it does not affect anything on the Ethereal plane (unless, of course, thats where the cleric is).

3)Either just ignore that the encounter happened, or find a way for the party to get a free resurrection spell. Also, you could ignore the PC dying, and just say that the spiders poison only made it appear like the PC died, but he is just barely clinging on to life, so must get medical treatment.

Yup, time for an "I screwed up email". Thanks for the info.

We fought a phase spider last night and I have three questions:

1. Can the spider pull a person into the etherial plane by grabbing and shifting?

2. Does a cleric's channel energy power affect creatures in the eterial plane?

3. If a GM kills a PC because he, say, made some rules mistakes in an encounter with a phase spider, how can he fix it?

Question 3 is the most important.

I just finished book one of the Carrion Crown adventure path (Haunting of Harrowstone). I want my players to level up before starting book two (Trial of the Beast) so I'm looking for a short scenario for level two to three characters, with some gold and items. I could make it up myself, but I'd like something nice with maps and maybe some art work. Does anyone know where I could get something like this? PDF would be great, and I don't mind paying $5-10 for a well done product. I tried one of the Avalon adventures, but that was a waste of a dollar fifty.

In fact, if anyone knows of a collection or series of quick and easy fully stocked short adventure scenarios with maps, monsters, and stats, I'd be interested. I'm looking for simple stuff like a tower in the woods with some monsters, or a cave with some baddies in it. Stuff I can edit to fit into an ongoing campaign without too much trouble.

Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks.


I had the GM read this thread. He b~~@$ed and said it was his game and he wanted to keep the style of old school D&D, but agreed that I was unfairly singled out. Sure enough, the next game session a package arrived from our patrons with a bunch of 1st and 2nd level scrolls and enough supplies to write them into my spell book. I'm good until 5th level and by that time I figure I'll have my "lab" up and running so I can get my regular two spells per level. Personally, I think he should just play it by the rules as written, but he runs a fun game so WTH.

Anyways, I thank everyone who posted for their help.

We’re playing Kingmaker and using Oleg’s trading post as a base. I was able to convince a runner to purchase the supplies I need from the closest city - he'll be back in a couple of weeks. I should be able to continue this into the future, so I’ll be able to transcribe spells from scrolls into my spellbook and “backup my data” in case of another mishap. For now, I’m basically using my bow.

I’m really hoping the GM changes his mind on the research aspect of the class. I’ve played wizards before and those two spells /level make a huge difference. In most Pathfinder adventure paths, there are long periods of time when characters are isolated from civilization. It doesn’t make sense to allow other classes to gain new skills and abilities without training but to limit wizards.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I have a couple of questions regarding wizard spell acquisition and I need some specific rule references to cite. I’m playing a 1st level wizard in a Kingmaker campaign and my character’s spell book was stolen when we were waylaid by bandits. I have two spells left in memory and would like to inscribe them into an extra spell book I wisely purchased. Checking the rules under “replacing and copying spell books”, it appears that I can write them into my (currently blank) extra spell book for 10 gold each. However, the rules don’t state why you need the 10 gold. My GM ruled that it is for special inks and since we’re not near any city, I don’t have access to them. This seems harsh to me. Is there any rule clarifying this one way or another?

My second question involves spells gained at new levels. The reference docs say “At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook.” The magic chapter of the Player’s Guide explains this by stating “Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures” (p 219.). My GM has ruled that since I don’t have access to a city with a library, I can’t perform “research” and I won’t gain these new spells. I feel I’ve lost a major class feature and I need something to convince the GM he is wrong. Can anyone direct me to an applicable FAQ or resource to back up my case?

Thanks for the info guys.

A fellow player in our campaign found a trait called Finding Helene or some such. The trait gives +1 hp AND +1 skill point per level based upon the idea that you are looking for a caretaker who disappeared (named Helene or something similar).

Does anyone have more information about this? It seems pretty abusive to me.

I’ve been playing Pathfinder for a while, and lurking on this board for a bit. I’ve come to the conclusion that clerics outclass wizards in just about every way. Even as offensive casters, clerics seem to dominate. This is because clerics maintain their inherent advantages even when created as damage dealers instead of healers.

Experienced players are familiar with basic cleric advantages like hit dice, armor, and saves. But by worshipping select gods and taking certain feats, they can greatly improve their offensive power. For example, the fire domain gives spells like fireball and produce flame, while the weather domain contains both call lightning and ice storm. Both domains start with ranged touch attacks comparable with specialist wizards.

The character I’m planning on playing is a Cleric of Asmodeous. I plan on taking the Fire and Trickery domains. For my domain slot I can take powerful mage spells like invisibility and fireball. The domain powers are all pretty nice, but the trickery doppelganger power is abusive. While not as powerful as mirror image, I can cast it as a move action, distracting my enemies with a 50% miss chance six or seven times a day. This should have been a no brainer for the illusionist specialist, but instead they get extended illusions, which is weak in combat. Add that to the extra class skills and fire resistance and you have major advantage cleric.

But that’s just the beginning. I plan on channeling negative energy. I can cast mini fire balls, centered on myself. At 5th level, I’ll have 3d6 instead of 5d6, and I can cast this about five or six times a day without using spell slots. I can take the selective channel feat to protect my allies or I can take the channeled smite ability and have the equivalent of a rogue’s sneak attack dice several times a day without having to flank my opponents.

There’s more. When I’ve played wizards I often wasted slots on spells that I wasn’t able to use. My cleric can convert spells to “harm” spells at will. This greatly adds to my versatility allowing me to affect creatures with DR or (since I’m using touch attacks) high armor classes.

Finally, as an evil cleric, I can command undead, either by taking the feat or using the 3rd level animate dead spell (it’s 4th level for mages). I can also use my negative energy channel to heal my undead minions.

Granted a mage gets a couple extra feats and either a familiar or imbued object, but I think my advantages as a cleric far outweigh those perks.
I just can’t see any reason to ever play a wizard again. Am I missing something here?