COM: What We Asked For, and What We Got


General Discussion

51 to 100 of 135 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

Don't forget "Skill Synergy" - one feat = two class skills. :)


Don't forget "Skill Synergy" - one feat = two class skills. :)


Metaphysician wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
We got a variety of ways to make small arms usable for non-operatives.

I particularly liked Double Tap.

"Small Arms don't do enough damage!"

"Have you tried shooting more bullets?"

Indeed, Double Tap seems perfect. Increased accuracy ( +1 to hit is not trivial ), and a decent chunk of extra damage, at the cost of a feat and ammo. Only ammo is almost trivially cheap, and nearly every combat-improving option for Small Arms users would cost at least one feat anyone.

I feel like this will be a *hugely* appealing option for every non-combat class that wants extra combat power without wanting to do the whole stupid "buy Long Arms proficiency and specialty, pretend to be a Soldier" spiel. You might not get as much extra DPS, but it'll cost less in feats, credits, and bulk.

That does sound good. Good accuracy buff for the classes that probably need it and prevents you from basically getting double dinged for using small arms with lower specialization damage + lower base damage of small arms. Nice for non operators who want to use small arms instead of feeling almost forced into picking up long gun prof.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Just downloaded my copy, and I’ve digitally thumbed through it, and I have some initial thoughts.
1)Vanguards seem to be fine. All but unchanged (I know, dropped from 8 down to 7 hp/stamina). Seems fine.
2) I liked what they did to even out studious vs intuitive biohackers, played out the will bonus without getting rid of it, intuitive biohackers get 2 extra skill ranks a level. Nice. They also get skill bonuses now so that a medicine Envoy doesn’t immediately outclass them in skill bonus.
3)Witchwarper was the biggest let down. None of the things I wanted happened, and they got a huge nerf. Infinite worlds now requires spell slots (and we know how few of those we get), didn’t see an increase in skill ranks a level, and there are no good repeatable paradigm shifts. I was all set to play a Witchwarper, but now. . . I dunno. Their spells aren’t good enough for attacking, their abilities all require saves that will usually negate, and they can’t really fight well. What purpose do they serve?

I did see that slice reality staggers a target (no save) on the Witchwarper list, and they can take an ability to crib spells off of other lists, so that’s something I guess.


VampByDay wrote:

Just downloaded my copy, and I’ve digitally thumbed through it, and I have some initial thoughts.

1)Vanguards seem to be fine. All but unchanged (I know, dropped from 8 down to 7 hp/stamina). Seems fine.
2) I liked what they did to even out studious vs intuitive biohackers, played out the will bonus without getting rid of it, intuitive biohackers get 2 extra skill ranks a level. Nice. They also get skill bonuses now so that a medicine Envoy doesn’t immediately outclass them in skill bonus.
3)Witchwarper was the biggest let down. None of the things I wanted happened, and they got a huge nerf. Infinite worlds now requires spell slots (and we know how few of those we get), didn’t see an increase in skill ranks a level, and there are no good repeatable paradigm shifts. I was all set to play a Witchwarper, but now. . . I dunno. Their spells aren’t good enough for attacking, their abilities all require saves that will usually negate, and they can’t really fight well. What purpose do they serve?

I did see that slice reality staggers a target (no save) on the Witchwarper list, and they can take an ability to crib spells off of other lists, so that’s something I guess.

I disagree that Slice Reality is a no save stagger. Paizo has a long history of being sloppy with these kinds of spells, and the intent is always that the rider effect is negated on a successful save.

If you want no save stagger it's available with the investment of two paradigm shifts mid career.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:

Just downloaded my copy, and I’ve digitally thumbed through it, and I have some initial thoughts.

1)Vanguards seem to be fine. All but unchanged (I know, dropped from 8 down to 7 hp/stamina). Seems fine.
2) I liked what they did to even out studious vs intuitive biohackers, played out the will bonus without getting rid of it, intuitive biohackers get 2 extra skill ranks a level. Nice. They also get skill bonuses now so that a medicine Envoy doesn’t immediately outclass them in skill bonus.
3)Witchwarper was the biggest let down. None of the things I wanted happened, and they got a huge nerf. Infinite worlds now requires spell slots (and we know how few of those we get), didn’t see an increase in skill ranks a level, and there are no good repeatable paradigm shifts. I was all set to play a Witchwarper, but now. . . I dunno. Their spells aren’t good enough for attacking, their abilities all require saves that will usually negate, and they can’t really fight well. What purpose do they serve?

I did see that slice reality staggers a target (no save) on the Witchwarper list, and they can take an ability to crib spells off of other lists, so that’s something I guess.

I disagree that Slice Reality is a no save stagger. Paizo has a long history of being sloppy with these kinds of spells, and the intent is always that the rider effect is negated on a successful save.

If true, that makes it just a terrible spell, utterly useless.


VampByDay wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:

Just downloaded my copy, and I’ve digitally thumbed through it, and I have some initial thoughts.

1)Vanguards seem to be fine. All but unchanged (I know, dropped from 8 down to 7 hp/stamina). Seems fine.
2) I liked what they did to even out studious vs intuitive biohackers, played out the will bonus without getting rid of it, intuitive biohackers get 2 extra skill ranks a level. Nice. They also get skill bonuses now so that a medicine Envoy doesn’t immediately outclass them in skill bonus.
3)Witchwarper was the biggest let down. None of the things I wanted happened, and they got a huge nerf. Infinite worlds now requires spell slots (and we know how few of those we get), didn’t see an increase in skill ranks a level, and there are no good repeatable paradigm shifts. I was all set to play a Witchwarper, but now. . . I dunno. Their spells aren’t good enough for attacking, their abilities all require saves that will usually negate, and they can’t really fight well. What purpose do they serve?

I did see that slice reality staggers a target (no save) on the Witchwarper list, and they can take an ability to crib spells off of other lists, so that’s something I guess.

I disagree that Slice Reality is a no save stagger. Paizo has a long history of being sloppy with these kinds of spells, and the intent is always that the rider effect is negated on a successful save.
If true, that makes it just a terrible spell, utterly useless.

Compare to the Mystic's Force Blast. Bad, not useless.

Scarab Sages

@Xenocrat:
Force blast (which the Witchwarper also gets) affects more people during the levels when 2d6 damage means anything (an entire cone, as opposed to 1+1/3 levels), and has a chance to do things like bull rush enemies off cliffs or into hazardous terrain even if they save (And they bull rush scales with level). This does a bit of puddly targetable damage., or one thing piddly targetable damage and an easy save for a slow effect if your theory is correct.


Yes, and that’s fine. Its got aspects of Force Blast and Inject Nanobots in a single spell. Being able to stagger at range at level 4 isn’t bad. Trade it out later.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Xenocrat wrote:
Yes, and that’s fine. Its got aspects of Force Blast and Inject Nanobots in a single spell. Being able to stagger at range at level 4 isn’t bad. Trade it out later.

Well, regardless of that one spell, it feels like the Witchwarper is just . . . severely underpowered compared to the other casting classes.

Compared to the mystic they have a bad will save (often considered the most important save) less skill points, their primary attribute doesn't contribute to anything other than three skills, they have less of a class bonus to skills, and get a bonus to their second skill late, (they do get to choose the skills, admittedly), their paradigm shifts feel very underwhelming compared to the mystic connection abilities, and their list of class skills is smaller.

Compared to the technomancer they still have a low will save, their primary attribute doesn't contribute to anything other than three skills, It takes them longer to get a bonus to a second skill (they do get to choose those skills admittedly), their spell selection is basically worse, their paradigm shifts are very underwhelming compared to technomancer magic hacks, and they have only one class skill that is useful in starship combat (diplomacy, discounting the new starship roles, which I haven't finished digesting yet.)


3 people marked this as a favorite.
VampByDay wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Yes, and that’s fine. Its got aspects of Force Blast and Inject Nanobots in a single spell. Being able to stagger at range at level 4 isn’t bad. Trade it out later.

Well, regardless of that one spell, it feels like the Witchwarper is just . . . severely underpowered compared to the other casting classes.

Compared to the mystic they have a bad will save (often considered the most important save) less skill points, their primary attribute doesn't contribute to anything other than three skills, they have less of a class bonus to skills, and get a bonus to their second skill late, (they do get to choose the skills, admittedly), their paradigm shifts feel very underwhelming compared to the mystic connection abilities, and their list of class skills is smaller.

Compared to the technomancer they still have a low will save, their primary attribute doesn't contribute to anything other than three skills, It takes them longer to get a bonus to a second skill (they do get to choose those skills admittedly), their spell selection is basically worse, their paradigm shifts are very underwhelming compared to technomancer magic hacks, and they have only one class skill that is useful in starship combat (diplomacy, discounting the new starship roles, which I haven't finished digesting yet.)

The spell list is fine, it has a mix of mind control (pretty much everything on the Mystic list except the memory spells and dominate), information gathering (detect thoughts, augury, arcane sight, speak with dead), illusion (invisibility plus the defensive spells and disguises), travel (dimension door, teleport, plus reality leap at 2nd is amazing), utility for getting past doors (knock, entropic grasp, passwall), battlefield control (too many to list, but including clouds, walls, and movement/knockdown spells), blasting (light on the single attack options before 5th, light on the AOE after 3rd), condition removal (including reincarnate/raise dead), and more.

What's the spell list missing? It doesn't have some of the mind control options and information gathering of the Mystic, it doesn't have their Mind Thrust, it doesn't have healing or restoration. It doesn't have the direct tech options of the Technomancer, it doesn't have most of the blasts, but does have Explosive Blast and Disintegrate and the Mystic AOE minor damage plus crowd control blasts. Oh, wait, we're missing a key spell from another list? How about that Eldritch Secret paradigm shift to pick it up?

What's it the best spell list for? Battlefield control and movement. It has all the preexisting movement spells plus Reality Leap and Reality Bend as unique options. It has both all the Mystic control options and the Technomancer walls and some new spells in this book.

The saves and skills are boosted by both the Alternate Outcome class ability and the Probability Prediction spell, they're great at rerolls. And don't forget the Thwart Ability paradigm shift, which can grant a reroll with a bonus on any damaging spell or ability. Sure, that's mostly reflex stuff you're good at, but it's also Mind Thrust and a few other damaging will/fort save spells and abilities, both monster stuff and Disintegrates.

The skills are perfect for debuffing, and you have LOTS of single target save or lose spells. As a charisma class that can pick where to put your insight bonuses you can go for a max intimidate demoralize build, giving yourself a VERY good chance at inflicting shaken as a move action before you cast your spell. You can also do Bluff and take the new Spell Feint feat to set up a -3 penalty for your spell next round. Hold Person/Monster? Flesh to Stone? Baleful Polymorph? Whatever spell we got through Eldritch Secret?

The Paradigm Shifts stand up just fine to connection powers and magic hacks. Thwart Ability can save you or an ally from massive damage, Eldritch Secret is the only cross spell list ability in the game so far, Inhibit at 5th level is an improved version of some 9th level connection powers that also trade your standard action for a save negates stagger effect, Resist Elements is better than the crap technomancer anti-tech defensive hacks (at least it works reliably), Hobble Creature is a no save no spell resistance stagger that can cripple an opponent of much higher CR than you, Magic Deletion can potentially save you from some big spell hits that Thwart Ability wouldn't, Dart Aside can make you immune to one attack a round with proper positioning, Swapping Step is a useful and highly spammable battlefield control ability, and Unveil Reality is the best ability of its sort in the game, no connection power or hack compares for spammable combat power to potentially nullify an enemy.

Infinite Worlds is great, with flexibility well worth a spell slot when you need those effects. A zone of difficult terrain for a 1st level spell? Hell yes. A chance to knock a group prone before your melee allies wade in? Sign me up. Concealment even against special sense to either protect my party or give us the ability to use stealth in the open? Great! A 4th level slot to choke off a corridor with four consecutive cubes they have to bash through to get to me? LOL. Don't have Disintegrate, but need to get through a starship hull? Drop that hardness and get to work with the weapons at hand.

Scarab Sages

@Xenocrat
Okay, okay, I get where you are coming from. Taking a second look at the spell list, there are a few goods spells in there. Haste, all the remove conditions, fly . . . good utility spells and a few attack spells. Though I never liked probability prediction. 3rd level spell that lasts rnds/level, using a standard action on something you MIGHT use?

The thing is, there are a lot of save-or-nothing spells, and 9 times out of 10 in the Starfinder I have played, enemies save, no matter what the occasion. And yes, I've played people with their primary casting stat boosted as high as it will go.

Sure, the spell list gives you some mobility, but what do you do once you are in place? You probably won't have the Str/Dex or BAB to hit much. Can't cast spells to heal your friends (though you can get rid of conditions). And like I said, most of your spells are save or nothing, and given that you have few spell slots and you use them for your spells, infinite worlds AND some paradigm shifts, you won't have enough slots to keep throwing spells at the bad guy until it sticks.

I didn't see Thwart ability, and yes, could be useful, though at lower levels the RP cost is quite high. Disrupt and Hobble creature are okay, I suppose, but again, you are spending your precious spell slots for them.

I dunno where you get the idea that swapping step is spamable. 1/creature/24 hrs. And if you target two enemies, that's TWO saves or nothing. I mean, it's a great way to pull your keister out of the fire and put your solarian in your place, but that's 1/day if it even comes up. Also lvl 14, so, y'know, pretty late in the game. And somewhere around that level your healing mystic can heal everyone around them AND anyone in a telepathic bond with them AND anyone so healed essentially gets a free breath of life. And your Technomancer just chose one magic hack to get one additional spell known for every spell level she has or will ever have gained. So, yeah, that's why I'm kinda down on the Paradigm shifts.


Is anyone else disappointed that Double Tap is locked in as a Standard Action?

I was hoping it would instead just have a restriction that prevented it from being used with Trick Attack and Triple/Quad Attack. The Standard Action restriction means that the only class that always gets a benefit from it is Mystic since they don't have any Standard Action Shoot + bonus effect abilities. Envoys have their multitude of such abilities, Mechanics have Overcharge, and Technomancers have Spellshot and its upgrades. It can't even be because they didn't want the damage to stack, since all of those can also be used with Longarms (or even Heavy Weapons). Not to mention that the restriction means no Pistol-wielding Soldiers (or Solarians, if they didn't go Solar Flare).

These would still be doing less damage than if they were using Longarms, so it just feels like a missed opportunity.

~

On another note, the Improvise Surgery Expertise Talent grants Insight bonuses, which is useless for an Envoy.

Sovereign Court

nothinglord wrote:

Is anyone else disappointed that Double Tap is locked in as a Standard Action?

I was hoping it would instead just have a restriction that prevented it from being used with Trick Attack and Triple/Quad Attack. The Standard Action restriction means that the only class that always gets a benefit from it is Mystic since they don't have any Standard Action Shoot + bonus effect abilities. Envoys have their multitude of such abilities, Mechanics have Overcharge, and Technomancers have Spellshot and its upgrades. It can't even be because they didn't want the damage to stack, since all of those can also be used with Longarms (or even Heavy Weapons). Not to mention that the restriction means no Pistol-wielding Soldiers (or Solarians, if they didn't go Solar Flare).

These would still be doing less damage than if they were using Longarms, so it just feels like a missed opportunity.

I'm disappointed too, especially for Envoys. However, also note the +1 to hit from Double Tap; that does help 3/4BAB classes.


nothinglord wrote:

Is anyone else disappointed that Double Tap is locked in as a Standard Action?

I was hoping it would instead just have a restriction that prevented it from being used with Trick Attack and Triple/Quad Attack.

It would be way too powerful for a regular feat then. Maybe they could add Improved Double Tap later and have it work with another standard action, or Quad Tap and work with a Full Attack.

Regardless, Double Tap still works with Get 'Em!, Empower Weapon, Improved Feint, Clever Feint, or any other supplementary move action or previous round action. Double Tap characters can build around it.

Quote:
On another note, the Improvise Surgery Expertise Talent grants Insight bonuses, which is useless for an Envoy.

Not every Envoy gets Insight bonuses anymore, and the bonus isn't the only thing that talent gives.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Quote:
Regardless, Double Tap still works with Get 'Em!, Empower Weapon, Improved Feint, Clever Feint, or any other supplementary move action or previous round action. Double Tap characters can build around it.

That isn't quite accurate.

Quote:

As a standard action, you can take a single attack action to make a double-tap attack with a small arm. This attack gains a +1 bonus to the attack roll, and your bonus to damage from Weapon Specialization is equal to your character level (rather than half your character level). The small arm used cannot have the blast, explode, flexible line AR, line, unwieldy, or wide line AR weapon special properties, or any other property that allows it to attack multiple targets or an area in a single attack. This attack cannot benefit from the boost, guided AR, or variant boost AR weapon special properties, or any other ability or effect that is a move action and alters the effect of your attack or damage. This expends ammunition equal to two attack rolls, and if you cannot expend that ammunition, you cannot use this ability.[/b]


Would work with improved get em though? SInce thats not a move action.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

No, they're two distinct standard actions. I don't see any way to do them both at once.

An envoy who takes combat expertise is also probably one who has decided not to go the improved get 'em or clever attack routes, for the same reason.


HammerJack wrote:
Quote:
Regardless, Double Tap still works with Get 'Em!, Empower Weapon, Improved Feint, Clever Feint, or any other supplementary move action or previous round action. Double Tap characters can build around it.

That isn't quite accurate.

Quote:
As a standard action, you can take a single attack action to make a double-tap attack with a small arm. This attack gains a +1 bonus to the attack roll, and your bonus to damage from Weapon Specialization is equal to your character level (rather than half your character level). The small arm used cannot have the blast, explode, flexible line AR, line, unwieldy, or wide line AR weapon special properties, or any other property that allows it to attack multiple targets or an area in a single attack. This attack cannot benefit from the boost, guided AR, or variant boost AR weapon special properties, or any other ability or effect that is a move action and alters the effect of your attack or damage. This expends ammunition equal to two attack rolls, and if you cannot expend that ammunition, you cannot use this ability.

I think the intent of this is that the move action ability directly alter your personal weapon or attack. Something like the techno's Empowered Weapon. A general bonus to attack a specific enemy that might come from another person's move action ability probably isn't intended. Otherwise you're in the weird place that your ally's Get 'Em doesn't work as a move action, but would have worked if it were a standard action.


HammerJack wrote:

No, they're two distinct standard actions. I don't see any way to do them both at once.

D oh, I mean someone ELSES improved get em. Since the ability doesn't limit it to your move actions (or am I being overly persnickety there?)

I don't see who's supposed to be the intended customer for the feat. Longarm proficiency seems like its just better, operatives would never use it...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I was responding more to empower weapon being listed as an option in the quote that I, well, quoted.

The feints affect the enemy instead if the attack, and are also fine.

As for who the customer is, I was looking at the feat as an answer for "the character image that I want to have uses a pistol, so I don't want longarms." Because that is definitely a thing I've seen people ask for.

So this would be a more viable (an adjective distinct from "optimal") route for drone mechanics that want to use their tricks on things besides overcharge. (It would be huge if it could be given to drones as well, but their feat list has never expanded). You could use this on any caster that didn't want to carry a large weapon, and be alright.

Sovereign Court

Well, longarm proficiency takes two feats, and two hands. There's a big "hands matter" theme in this book.

But yeah, as written, you can't benefit from your own (Improved) Get 'Em, can't benefit from someone else's Get 'Em, someone else's Improved Get 'Em performed as a move action, but you can benefit from someone else's Improved Get 'Em performed as a standard action.

That's... highly specific. But actually very doable if there's an envoy with a big gun in the party. So I'm not sure what they really accomplished with all those restrictions. It's almost like someone tried to reinvent non-stacking bonus types but was too late to the CRB to do so.


Ascalaphus wrote:
It's almost like someone tried to reinvent non-stacking bonus types but was too late to the CRB to do so.

Yeah, I can't wait for Starfinder 2.


I do really like the opt in archetypes.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
I do really like the opt in archetypes.

How many are there? I've skimmed and noticed the Battle Flower and Esotericist are completely opt in, Starwright has the opt in on additional uses of your only ability.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
apparently nothing to put any pizazz into an armor solarion.

nope , honestly solar shield is probably a better deal the solar armor except a few builds


Xenocrat wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I do really like the opt in archetypes.
How many are there? I've skimmed and noticed the Battle Flower and Esotericist are completely opt in, Starwright has the opt in on additional uses of your only ability.

Those are the ones I counted as well. I suppose you can also lump Free Trader into that campe since, while they aren't technically opt-in, they only change a feature at a single level so deciding whether or not to take it is functionally very similar.

I'm really digging how many "classic" class types we got in this book. At least three flavors of monk I can count, a barbarian, a bard, a ranger, and a paladin.

Scarab Sages

Perpdepog wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I do really like the opt in archetypes.
How many are there? I've skimmed and noticed the Battle Flower and Esotericist are completely opt in, Starwright has the opt in on additional uses of your only ability.

Those are the ones I counted as well. I suppose you can also lump Free Trader into that campe since, while they aren't technically opt-in, they only change a feature at a single level so deciding whether or not to take it is functionally very similar.

I'm really digging how many "classic" class types we got in this book. At least three flavors of monk I can count, a barbarian, a bard, a ranger, and a paladin.

Interestingly enough, the ‘flavor’ of monk I built off of armory actually does something better than the Qi soldier (and a lot of things worse, don’t get me wrong.). Arcane assailant +ring of fangs+ (I forget the name, the armory Ability that makes your archaic weapons non-archaic)+Improved unarmed strike. You end up punching with a non-archaic magic weapon that you can make have a handful of fusions (like ghost killer), and you do bleed on a critical. And 2xlvl to damage.


A lot of the good's been mentioned here already. Few people talking about biohacker. Yes, instinctive biohackers don't seem strictly worse now, and that's great, but some of the class's other options from the playtest are just gone. Hopefully we'll get new theorems/fields in the future. There are 19 theorems and 5 fields of study. A pure biohacker who doesn't multiclass or take archetypes will, by level 20, have access to 10 theorems and 3 fields of study, meaning they will experience over half what the class has to offer. I see a lot of particular theorems getting neglected (speedy serums, stable biohacks) so, aside from instinctive vs. studious, most biohackers will probably build the same.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Am I way off base in seeing Double Tap as terrible?

+1 to hit and +1/2 level for damage, but only when making a single attack each round? It doesn't work with basically any other ability that helps to narrow the DPR gap for non-full-BAB classes (No overcharge, empower weapon, get'em, etc). Its damage is worse than single attacking with a longarm 100% of the time. The only thing you're getting is not having to spend two feats on proficiency and versatile specialization (instead spending one), and having a hand free.

I know multiple people that REALLY wanted to have a viable way to use pistols on their soldier, and this definitely isn't it.


Cellion wrote:

Am I way off base in seeing Double Tap as terrible?

+1 to hit and +1/2 level for damage, but only when making a single attack each round? It doesn't work with basically any other ability that helps to narrow the DPR gap for non-full-BAB classes (No overcharge, empower weapon, get'em, etc). Its damage is worse than single attacking with a longarm 100% of the time. The only thing you're getting is not having to spend two feats on proficiency and versatile specialization (instead spending one), and having a hand free.

I know multiple people that REALLY wanted to have a viable way to use pistols on their soldier, and this definitely isn't it.

I agree. I don't know why it would be broken to eliminate those restrictions while keeping it a single attack standard action. That makes it especially appealing for lower BAB classes that might not want to full attack. (and can do other things with move actions).


Cellion wrote:

Am I way off base in seeing Double Tap as terrible?

+1 to hit and +1/2 level for damage, but only when making a single attack each round? It doesn't work with basically any other ability that helps to narrow the DPR gap for non-full-BAB classes (No overcharge, empower weapon, get'em, etc). Its damage is worse than single attacking with a longarm 100% of the time. The only thing you're getting is not having to spend two feats on proficiency and versatile specialization (instead spending one), and having a hand free.

I know multiple people that REALLY wanted to have a viable way to use pistols on their soldier, and this definitely isn't it.

It's not great, but it's a mild upgrade for spellcasters or envoys who wanted to focus on skills/spells stuff and not devote a bunch of resources to longarms or have the image of dragging around a rifle. I don't think it's really reasonable to ever ask Soldiers to be as effective with a pistol as they can be with any other option.

I don't understand why it's limited in being used with other damage boosters given that it only narrows the gap with longarms and doesn't erase it.


Xenocrat wrote:

It's not great, but it's a mild upgrade for spellcasters or envoys who wanted to focus on skills/spells stuff and not devote a bunch of resources to longarms or have the image of dragging around a rifle. I don't think it's really reasonable to ever ask Soldiers to be as effective with a pistol as they can be with any other option.

I don't understand why it's limited in being used with other damage boosters given that it only narrows the gap with longarms and doesn't erase it.

Well if all double tap did was give Full Weapon Specialization and the +1 bonus on attack rolls (still can't be used with Trick Attack, Triple/Quad Attack, or AOE weapons), then a Soldier with the feat would still be doing less damage than with a Longarm, let alone a Heavy Weapon. Even if the Soldier had Multiweapon Fighting it's still overall less damage, but it's close.

So it's not making them being just as effective as with any other option, it just makes the option not horrendously bad. That way someone isn't totally gimped if they want to play a gun slinging Soldier.

Same for other classes. It's still less feat investment than Longarm proficiency + Specialization, but also less damage.


IMHO what double tab should be is: expend two shots of ammo, add +1 to hit and roll damage twice with half specialization and limit the range to the first increment. Double tap is really not a long range shooting style.

After all, most properly trained in the use of double tap (ie the feat) hit with both bullets, not just one most of the time.

So to me it make sense to roll damage twice.

Double tap won't scale well as you go up in level. The small arms start adding more dice to their damage rolls and the bonus damage of double tap is meh. At 10th level all you get is +5 damage and at 20th level +10.

It may be better to invest in feats / abilities that help you hit more often and fire twice as a full round action instead.


If I'm reading it right, Double Tap works with the Biohackers "Painful Injection" theorem.

Between the attack bonus from (Injection Expert/Weapon Focus small arms/Double Tap)
And the damage bonus from (Double Tap/Painful Injection/Sedatives), biohackers will be hitting often and dealing a respectable amount of damage.


Third Strongest Mole wrote:
Cellion wrote:

Am I way off base in seeing Double Tap as terrible?

+1 to hit and +1/2 level for damage, but only when making a single attack each round? It doesn't work with basically any other ability that helps to narrow the DPR gap for non-full-BAB classes (No overcharge, empower weapon, get'em, etc). Its damage is worse than single attacking with a longarm 100% of the time. The only thing you're getting is not having to spend two feats on proficiency and versatile specialization (instead spending one), and having a hand free.

I know multiple people that REALLY wanted to have a viable way to use pistols on their soldier, and this definitely isn't it.

I agree. I don't know why it would be broken to eliminate those restrictions while keeping it a single attack standard action. That makes it especially appealing for lower BAB classes that might not want to full attack. (and can do other things with move actions).

my barricade building drone mechanic would like it.

Scarab Sages

I’m just happy that operatives can now be ninjas with Shuriien Assassin and death touch. Although they really need to solve the problem of needing to apply weapon fusions to unarmed attacks. Mainly just to make them magical.


VampByDay wrote:
I’m just happy that operatives can now be ninjas with Shuriien Assassin and death touch. Although they really need to solve the problem of needing to apply weapon fusions to unarmed attacks. Mainly just to make them magical.

And don't forget Soft Movement that lets ou run across liquids. And isn't there an option for getting nearly constant spider climb, too?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

When I playtested the Biohacker, my big complaint was the inability to effectively boost my allies, because the vanguard in level+1 heavy armor can't be caught flat-footed, so good luck giving him the good stuff mid combat. Now, you can auto succeed the ranged attack on allies so long as you had scanned them with your portable lab, and they're within 30 feet.

Scarab Sages

Perpdepog wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
I’m just happy that operatives can now be ninjas with Shuriien Assassin and death touch. Although they really need to solve the problem of needing to apply weapon fusions to unarmed attacks. Mainly just to make them magical.
And don't forget Soft Movement that lets ou run across liquids. And isn't there an option for getting nearly constant spider climb, too?

Good catch with soft movement. Wall dash can give you spiderclimb, but it is a stunt-and-strike thing, so, AFAIK, you permanently give up trick attack damage to get it.


So, about the mechanic experimental prototype weapon...

Experimental Weapon Prototype wrote:
You begin play with one weapon with an item level of 1 for free, or you can buy any weapon normally and designated it as your weapon prototype.

My question is, what constitutes as free in this regard? Do I just pick an item level 1 weapon, like an Azimuth Artillery Laser (heavy), or do I pick and choose from the armory list and take whatever traits I want, damage die and all? It says I can pay for a weapon, but why would I? I feel there is a table or two missing from the mechanist COM section because of this "free". The heavy projectile weapons make for an interesting choice, as ammunition for heavies aren't available until lvl 2, so making a Siege Laser-like weapon is more ideal for the Overcharge-focused mechanist.

In short, if I want to make my own weapon, how do I decide ammo capacity, damage die and type, and range, etc?

Also, I think "designated" is wrong, shouldn't that be "designate" instead? It sure flows better.

Second question: Advanced Customization
If I'm reading it correctly, at 17th level, you can only have a max of two properties and one crit effect. Do you think this is correct?

Dumb Question:
It says that you calculate the prototype weapon and armor as 5 levels higher in terms of hardness, hp, and saves, what happens once you hit level 16 and higher? Does the prototype count as level 21 and up? No, really, I need an answer here.

I'm in the middle of making a prototype weapon build, haven't even gotten to the feats yet. Here's hoping we get a race builder next so I can have fun making new alien races, particularly robots.

While I'm at it, for the proto armor's energy shield (15th level ability), does it stack with the mechanic trick energy shield and improved energy shield and so on?


Tymin wrote:

So, about the mechanic experimental prototype weapon...

Experimental Weapon Prototype wrote:
You begin play with one weapon with an item level of 1 for free, or you can buy any weapon normally and designated it as your weapon prototype.
My question is, what constitutes as free in this regard? Do I just pick an item level 1 weapon, like an Azimuth Artillery Laser (heavy), or do I pick and choose from the armory list and take whatever traits I want, damage die and all? It says I can pay for a weapon, but why would I?

You get a free weapon that is an actual published weapon, then modify it per your class abilities.

You would buy one if you want a weapon of an item level greater than your level -2 (minimum 1). The free prototype doesn't upgrade, although you can deliberately lose/destroy it to create a free replacement of your level -2. So at level 4 you can finally get a level 2 weapon for free, but you might prefer to buy a level 3 or 4 (or 5 or 6 if you can afford it!) base weapon. The rules for this are on page 72 before they talk specifically about the armor and weapon options.


Xenocrat wrote:

You get a free weapon that is an actual published weapon, then modify it per your class abilities.

You would buy one if you want a weapon of an item level greater than your level -2 (minimum 1). The free prototype doesn't upgrade, although you can deliberately lose/destroy it to create a free replacement of your level -2. So at level 4 you can finally get a level 2 weapon for free, but you might prefer to buy a level 3 or 4 (or 5 or 6 if you can afford it!) base weapon. The rules for this are on page 72 before they talk specifically about the armor and weapon options.

I see. They didn't make that entirely clear, but now it makes more sense. I guess I'll go for the Azimuth artillery laser as my first weapon then.


Yeah, I don't this was by any means obvious on my first read through.


Actually, thought of a new thing: Enhanced Prototype Proficiency (5th lvl weapon ability) lets you wield a two-handed prototype weapon with only one hand without any penalties what-so-ever; How does that play with power armor and weapon slots? Does the proto weapon require two slots, or can it only take one slot?

Of course I'm gonna one hand my siege laser like a badass, what kind of limp biscuit do you take me for?


Tymin wrote:

Actually, thought of a new thing: Enhanced Prototype Proficiency (5th lvl weapon ability) lets you wield a two-handed prototype weapon with only one hand without any penalties what-so-ever; How does that play with power armor and weapon slots? Does the proto weapon require two slots, or can it only take one slot?

All weapons, whether one or two handed, mounted in Power Armor only take up one of the weapon slots. So if you put a prototype gun in power armor you're not benefiting in any way from the reduction in normal hands necessary to wield it. Out of power armor you can use it and have a free hand or shield, though.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'll be interested to see how fast they can expand the capabilities of the new classes. One reason I think people are disappointed with the Witchwarper is because it's competing with spellcasters that have expanded spell lists via the APs, extra connections in APs, Armory, and COM, and extra Technomancer hacks in Armory and COM, plus the new alternate class abilities for Technos and epiphanies for Mystics. CRB only spellcasters were not exciting.

On the biohacker front, it has been pointed out that a level 20 biohacker will have chosen a very high percentage of available fields of study and theorems by the end of his career, making choices rather sparse.

I haven't read the vanguard yet.

So when might we get some expansion? One hopes Near Space will have character options just as Pact Worlds did, and that they will be heavy on the new classes with the justification that some important planets in Near Space particular focus on these classes. (A Vesk vanguard academy, perhaps.)

I also can see the upcoming Threefold Conspiracy AP having the right theme and hopefully the right timing to include some biohacker (especially, given Gray proclivities) and witchwarper options in the backmatter.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
So when might we get some expansion?

* Ahem *

I believe those are the first new additions.

Hmm


Woo hoo!

Speaking of things we got, I noticed the Biohacker has 12 class skills, but only 4 skills per level. Every other class has twice as many class skills as the level. Did they mean to remove some class skills or should it have 6+Int skills per level?

(And has this already been answered somewhere else and I missed it?)

51 to 100 of 135 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Starfinder / Starfinder General Discussion / COM: What We Asked For, and What We Got All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.