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I'm asking specifically with regards to armor class, figuring I'm missing something.
I've had one actual tabletop session with PF2, and played a 1st-level barbarian. She got mutilated with repeated crits because - among other things - her AC wasn't at its expected value. I was gently told I was Doing It Wrong. Her AC was 14 because: I didn't realize I could use Medium armor without speed penalty and I didn't have a high Dex, preferring to spread into Con for survivability and Cha for social skills. I reiterate, she was one-shotted due to a crit because the DM rolled a 15.
So how the heck does a monk survive? I see Expert in no armor, so +4. Same as the barbarian. If I don't put a bunch in Dex, and I don't happen to be in Mountain stance, how does such a character not also get completely owned?
Or is everyone forced to use shields for a precious character-saving +2?
This isn't a "PF2 sucks" thread. I'm genuinely asking how it's viable to build a character that isn't armored, isn't high Dex, and isn't shielded?
In the playtest it was "start with a dex of at least 16" and it was worse since expert was only +2 back then. Now you have an option for low dex monks to take mountain stance at least.
Even if you have a 14 in dex, a level 1 monk's AC should be 17 though: 5 from proficiency (Expert+level), 2 from your dex. That should be as high as anyone else at that level. 18 dex monks will be at AC 19, as will Mountain Style monks.
Your dexterity should be in the 16-18 range or you should be using Mountain Stance. Mountain Stance was made for the specific purpose of enabling low-dex Monks, though the possibility of getting 1-rounded before you get a chance to turn it on is still quite concerning.
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A 14 AC Monk suggests 8 dex with no armor.
You should take a look at Mountain Style, it's specifically there for low dex monks.
If I don't put a bunch in Dex, and I don't happen to be in Mountain stance, how does such a character not also get completely owned?
I mean, you don't. If your dex is terrible and you don't take the stance that improves your defense if you have terrible dex or come up with another solution... you're going to get really hurt.
What did you expect to happen?
What I'm hearing (so far) is that "you don't". You don't go low-Dex (almost everyone here is saying 16). Low Dex is like 10 or 12. So, you don't.
While being able to do shields is a new opportunity, it's another "you don't". You don't go low-dex, no shield while being a monk, unless you're in Mountain Stance.
Fair enough. Keep the numbers where they're supposed to be Or Else. Got it.
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I mean, in theory there will be another option for low dex monks than mountain style, but for now that's what we've got.
The mistake made so often by non-optimizers with PF1 monks was "high dex and wis for good AC". So I figure most people's conception of the monk is "someone who is notably agile." As a tradeoff, you really have no in-class use for Wis anymore, I guess.
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What I'm hearing (so far) is that "you don't". You don't go low-Dex (almost everyone here is saying 16). Low Dex is like 10 or 12. So, you don't.
While being able to do shields is a new opportunity, it's another "you don't". You don't go low-dex, no shield while being a monk, unless you're in Mountain Stance.
Fair enough. Keep the numbers where they're supposed to be Or Else. Got it.
Literally Mountain Stance was designed for this exact character
What you're doing here is the same as a Fighter running in with 10 dex and Leather Armor and wondering why he died and completely ignoring the fact that Full Plate exists. Except worse, because Mountain Stance is a first level option and Full Plate isn't.
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Dex: 10
Proficiency: Expert
Shield: No
Stance: None
AC: 15
someone who is good at the game please help me optimize this. my character is dying.
What I'm hearing (so far) is that "you don't". You don't go low-Dex (almost everyone here is saying 16). Low Dex is like 10 or 12. So, you don't.
While being able to do shields is a new opportunity, it's another "you don't". You don't go low-dex, no shield while being a monk, unless you're in Mountain Stance.
Fair enough. Keep the numbers where they're supposed to be Or Else. Got it.
Or just go str monk and take mountain stance. Monks are primarily martial characters why wouldn't you have either dex or str at 16/18 if possible?
A 14dex monk with crane stance would be fine as well. +2 from dex + 5 from prof + 1 for crane.. that's 18 which is good.
even with 10 dex you'd be at 16, which isn't great but not terrible.
but yea if you don't put points into your defense and don't use a stance that gives you defense and don't use a shield you can get killed pretty fast.
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I would say that 14 is the minimum needed in dex on monks without Mountain Stance.
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I would say that 14 is the minimum needed in dex on monks without Mountain Stance.
Which would make sense considering you can't multiclass into monk without at least 14dex.
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Here's the thing about level 1 armor classes. If you hit the dex cap for your choice of armor, you're getting +5 AC (6 if it's heavy armor, but you can't afford that at level 1, probably.) All classes, except the monk, start out trained in some kind of defense, getting the expert upgrade at 5, 7, 11, etc.
So a non-monk at level 1, absent a stance or a shield, is going to have at most 10+5+3= 18 AC.
A level 1 monk who takes mountain style or a monk who maximizes dex will be sitting pretty with a 19 AC. Now people are going to pass you up eventually with shields, the heavy armor they can finally buy, and their own class's expertise upgrades (you don't get master until 13). But a monk should always be competitive in AC.
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I think you're somehow missing something in your equation OP because Monk, pretty much no matter how you build them are going to be at MAX 2-3 AC behind any of your Medium/Heavy Armor wearing Character regardless of if you go STR or DEX build.
If you're trying to make a NON-Mountain Stance Monk with low-DEX... then yeah, you're going to have low AC until you can afford to buy some Bracers of Armor or enchant that Explorers Clothing. Them's the brakes man...
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@OP: I don't understand your concern. If you actively avoid anything that helps your character's defenses, then of course you'll be crit. You don't need to optimize to the hilt to survive, you just need to give a little bit.
As others have stated, a blank-slate monk already starts with AC 15. Even dex 14 gets you AC 17, with which creatures of your level are likely only critting on a 19-20. Mountain stance gets you to AC 19. Higher dex does the same. And shield use gets you even higher. But really 17 AC will serve you just fine.
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Don't be in position to get hit. Move in, flurry, duck out. Grab Ki Rush for fights with AoO. Gets better with age, you are faster than normal (enemies waste 2 actions catching up) can get deflect arrows for archers and more ki points for ki rush, guarded movement, ironblood stance, and more.
It is a worse strategy than an amazing investment in good AC (even just a 14 dex is decent) but should be workable.
If you have mountain stance, assuming you're not actively swimming or something, you're out of mountain stance basically until it's your turn on the first round of combat. Usually you're not going to die before you can act. On your turn, spend your first action to enter mountain stance.
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I do genuinely feel that Mountain Stance's AC bonus should be available prior to initiative being rolled. As it stands strength monks are essentially the only characters in the game stuck with PF1-style flat-footed rules.
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Even a feat that lets you enter a stance as a reaction to being attacked, which is available much earlier than level 12, would be a good solution.
Don't be in position to get hit. Move in, flurry, duck out. Grab Ki Rush for fights with AoO. Gets better with age, you are faster than normal (enemies waste 2 actions catching up) can get deflect arrows for archers and more ki points for ki rush, guarded movement, ironblood stance, and more.
It is a worse strategy than an amazing investment in good AC (even just a 14 dex is decent) but should be workable.
Exactly. The best defense is not being a target in the first place.
OP never said he didn't have mountain stance. He said he wasn't in mountain stance. That's different. You can't be in mountain stance when init is rolled - you can have your shield raised, you have your armor and dex bonus, but you can't be in mountain stance.
How can a shield be raised when initiative is rolled ? Is it a feat? As it takes an action just like a stance ...
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How can a shield be raised when initiative is rolled ? Is it a feat? As it takes an action just like a stance ...OP never said he didn't have mountain stance. He said he wasn't in mountain stance. That's different. You can't be in mountain stance when init is rolled - you can have your shield raised, you have your armor and dex bonus, but you can't be in mountain stance.
It's an exploration tactic/activity/whatever they call it.
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Exploration tactics.
DEFEND
EXPLORATION
You move at half your travel speed with your shield raised. If combat breaks out, you gain the benefits of Raising a Shield before your first turn begins.
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Exploration tactics.
DEFEND
EXPLORATION
You move at half your travel speed with your shield raised. If combat breaks out, you gain the benefits of Raising a Shield before your first turn begins.
Proposal: Mountain Stance Monks get the POWER WALK exploration tactic that allows them to start in their stance with the same travel speed restriction as Defend.
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Such honest. Very question. Wow.
Not cool, man. There was no subterfuge. I asked for a specific thing (which due to Wis to AC was possible in PF1), explained my understanding of the "fixes" I was aware of, and asked what I was missing.
The answers have been useful, but mostly break down to "don't do that". I didn't complain about that result. I indicated I understood.
The rest of the discussion has been interesting, which is cool. Some of the math is enlightening. This accusation... not so much.
I'm asking specifically with regards to armor class, figuring I'm missing something.
I've had one actual tabletop session with PF2, and played a 1st-level barbarian. She got mutilated with repeated crits because - among other things - her AC wasn't at its expected value. I was gently told I was Doing It Wrong. Her AC was 14 because: I didn't realize I could use Medium armor without speed penalty and I didn't have a high Dex, preferring to spread into Con for survivability and Cha for social skills. I reiterate, she was one-shotted due to a crit because the DM rolled a 15.
So how the heck does a monk survive? I see Expert in no armor, so +4. Same as the barbarian. If I don't put a bunch in Dex, and I don't happen to be in Mountain stance, how does such a character not also get completely owned?
Or is everyone forced to use shields for a precious character-saving +2?
This isn't a "PF2 sucks" thread. I'm genuinely asking how it's viable to build a character that isn't armored, isn't high Dex, and isn't shielded?
I'm not a fan of dex builds being the meta, but I have to say that no armor, no dex and no shield is just a bad idea in every way.
Honestly I think a low-Dex no MS monk probably is viable, you just have to compensate in other ways. Be an elf, take Nimble Elf so you start with 35 speed, and kite the heck out of everything. Try hard not to be an attractive target to archers, or get Deflect Arrows.
Most melee combatants aren't going to want to spend two actions chasing you down when other party members are available, and monks are already as immune to spellcasters as it is possible to be thanks to their amazing saves, so I think you could do it, it would just be a bit of a challenge.
But obviously a character who completely disregards any focus on defense is going to have bad defense. I do kinda miss Wis to AC, but I understand why it couldn't come back.
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A big flaw with the design of the monk in the CRB is that there's really very little in-class which rewards you for investing in wisdom (probably because spell points were converted to focus, which was very limited, too late in the process to develop new monk stuff).
So I could see an option in a later book, whether a stance or a feat or a class archetype that lets you replace "Dex" with "Wis" for Armor Class (can't have both, or it would break the math) up to the Dex limit on your armor.
Of course that changes "you have to invest in dex" to "you have to invest in wis" but you're going to go have to invest in something. The 14/14/14/14/12/10 human is probably not a great character in most classes.
I think the question to ask is what stats are taking your boosts away from STR and DEX? I've mocked up a few monks so far and almost all of them have had a 16 in one and an 18 in the other (ancestry flaws aside. Sorry halfling monk) If your concept is pulling those boosts into other stats, so be it. But it might be worth looking at if you could get away with a 12 in that extra stay instead of a 14 or whatever the case may be.
I'm all for playing the character you want to play. Some characters just fit into different campaigns better than others. I'm far less likely to play my fireball flinging sorcerer in a campaign that I know is going to be dealing a lot with the plane of fire. A lower DEX monk with a higher charisma or wisdom might struggle in a super deadly gritty survival game but might be just the thing in a game involving more intrigue or social encounters where the other aspects of the monk package can really shine.
Knowing the game your going to be playing in can make a big difference in how much you enjoy a character.
A big flaw with the design of the monk in the CRB is that there's really very little in-class which rewards you for investing in wisdom (probably because spell points were converted to focus, which was very limited, too late in the process to develop new monk stuff).
So I could see an option in a later book, whether a stance or a feat or a class archetype that lets you replace "Dex" with "Wis" for Armor Class (can't have both, or it would break the math) up to the Dex limit on your armor.
Of course that changes "you have to invest in dex" to "you have to invest in wis" but you're going to go have to invest in something. The 14/14/14/14/12/10 human is probably not a great character in most classes.
I think I'd prefer a stance (perhaps an archetype) that gives you an unarmed strike that functions as a spell attack. That'd solidify wis-first Monks as a viable option; wis-secondary Monks can be fixed just by printing more ki powers.
I think I'd prefer a stance (perhaps an archetype) that gives you an unarmed strike that functions as a spell attack. That'd solidify wis-first Monks as a viable option; wis-secondary Monks can be fixed just by printing more ki powers.A big flaw with the design of the monk in the CRB is that there's really very little in-class which rewards you for investing in wisdom (probably because spell points were converted to focus, which was very limited, too late in the process to develop new monk stuff).
So I could see an option in a later book, whether a stance or a feat or a class archetype that lets you replace "Dex" with "Wis" for Armor Class (can't have both, or it would break the math) up to the Dex limit on your armor.
Of course that changes "you have to invest in dex" to "you have to invest in wis" but you're going to go have to invest in something. The 14/14/14/14/12/10 human is probably not a great character in most classes.
Doesn't that get covered by, say, an inmate produce flame cantrip? Or do you mean something you can flurry with?
Take Monastic weapons, and use bo staff with reach and parry. lvl 2 take champion dedication and fullplate
boom AC 20 2nd lvl monk with 10 dex and no mountain stance...ac21 with parry :)
I think I'd prefer a stance (perhaps an archetype) that gives you an unarmed strike that functions as a spell attack. That'd solidify wis-first Monks as a viable option; wis-secondary Monks can be fixed just by printing more ki powers.A big flaw with the design of the monk in the CRB is that there's really very little in-class which rewards you for investing in wisdom (probably because spell points were converted to focus, which was very limited, too late in the process to develop new monk stuff).
So I could see an option in a later book, whether a stance or a feat or a class archetype that lets you replace "Dex" with "Wis" for Armor Class (can't have both, or it would break the math) up to the Dex limit on your armor.
Of course that changes "you have to invest in dex" to "you have to invest in wis" but you're going to go have to invest in something. The 14/14/14/14/12/10 human is probably not a great character in most classes.
Zen Archery stance... interesting idea.
I think I'd prefer a stance (perhaps an archetype) that gives you an unarmed strike that functions as a spell attack. That'd solidify wis-first Monks as a viable option; wis-secondary Monks can be fixed just by printing more ki powers.A big flaw with the design of the monk in the CRB is that there's really very little in-class which rewards you for investing in wisdom (probably because spell points were converted to focus, which was very limited, too late in the process to develop new monk stuff).
So I could see an option in a later book, whether a stance or a feat or a class archetype that lets you replace "Dex" with "Wis" for Armor Class (can't have both, or it would break the math) up to the Dex limit on your armor.
Of course that changes "you have to invest in dex" to "you have to invest in wis" but you're going to go have to invest in something. The 14/14/14/14/12/10 human is probably not a great character in most classes.
I feel like this was a bit of a missed opportunity on Wild Winds Stance... I suppose they probably didn't want to lock Dex-focused monks out of it.
I imagine there will be Monk Archetypes that make them more ki/wis focused, seems like an obvious route to go.
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I imagine there will be Monk Archetypes that make them more ki/wis focused, seems like an obvious route to go.
At the very least I assume we will get something resembling qinggong monk back; I was under the impression that was a popular archetype.
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I imagine there will be Monk Archetypes that make them more ki/wis focused, seems like an obvious route to go.
I suspect ki/wis archetypes will be uncommon and require that the PC originate from New Zealand.
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I imagine there will be Monk Archetypes that make them more ki/wis focused, seems like an obvious route to go.I suspect ki/wis archetypes will be uncommon and require that the PC originate from New Zealand.
Reign of Kiwi campaign incoming.
Monk really feels like a class with a lot of potential build types. I am thoroughly impressed by the class and the fact that none of the builds need dex to damage to be good. Especially without the addition of armor and a focus away from weapons, it is pretty remarkable how effect so many different builds are. I think Monastic weapons is the only first level feat that doesn't interest me in building a fun character around.
surefooted martial Halfling crane stance with a focus on jumping looks like it will be the first one I try though, I have no idea how the swashbuckler is going to top the monk for mobility.
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Low Dex is like 10 or 12. So, you don't.
A 12 dex monk would have 16 AC, which is a pretty meaningful improvement over your numbers in the OP. 16 isn't great, but it's better than most wizards and only 1-2 points behind everyone else depending on their dex. An extra 2 AC is nontrivial when it comes to managing crits if you were getting crits on 15s before.
14 AC on the other hand is literally the lowest possible AC a monk could get without doing something really blatant like equipping light armor to turn off their proficiency bonus.
Frankly this whole thread seems kind of weird, you're asking whether or not monks are viable because your barbarian had a bad session. That strikes me as an odd question.
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Doesn't that get covered by, say, an inmate produce flame cantrip? Or do you mean something you can flurry with?I think I'd prefer a stance (perhaps an archetype) that gives you an unarmed strike that functions as a spell attack. That'd solidify wis-first Monks as a viable option; wis-secondary Monks can be fixed just by printing more ki powers.A big flaw with the design of the monk in the CRB is that there's really very little in-class which rewards you for investing in wisdom (probably because spell points were converted to focus, which was very limited, too late in the process to develop new monk stuff).
So I could see an option in a later book, whether a stance or a feat or a class archetype that lets you replace "Dex" with "Wis" for Armor Class (can't have both, or it would break the math) up to the Dex limit on your armor.
Of course that changes "you have to invest in dex" to "you have to invest in wis" but you're going to go have to invest in something. The 14/14/14/14/12/10 human is probably not a great character in most classes.
Innate spells key off of charisma without further verbage so just playing a gnome doesn't do it; it would be preferable to get something you can flurry with or otherwise works with existing Monk class features, yes.
Take Monastic weapons, and use bo staff with reach and parry. lvl 2 take champion dedication and fullplate
boom AC 20 2nd lvl monk with 10 dex and no mountain stance...ac21 with parry :)
If champion isn't your jam, Bo Staff is still great for high-Str, low-Dex monks. Reach makes it easier to avoid AoO for spring attack style fighting, Stand Still lets you try to play keep away with enemies (though it will rarely work, requires crit), using Trips will slow the enemy down even more if they want to fight you, Parry is nice in a pinch, and Brawling Focus means enemies you crit get knocked back which can be helpful though it also might interrupt your flurry (unless you can move them 10' and keep them in reach).