Grabbed


Rules Discussion


"You attempt to grab an opponent with your free hand. Attempt an Athletics check against their Fortitude DC. You can also Grapple to keep your hold on a creature you already grabbed."

Just wanted to ask how the last sentence of that description works "You can also grapple to keep your hold on a creature you already grabbed". I thought if you grab them the first round they are automatically free on there turn on the second round? How and when does one maintain the grab?


It doesn't make much sense to me either, but the description of the Black Tentacles spell on p321 talks about needing to beat a DC to escape the grapple, so perhaps that's intended to apply here as well? Posters who participated in the Playtest might know more?


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Atalius wrote:

"You attempt to grab an opponent with your free hand. Attempt an Athletics check against their Fortitude DC. You can also Grapple to keep your hold on a creature you already grabbed."

Just wanted to ask how the last sentence of that description works "You can also grapple to keep your hold on a creature you already grabbed". I thought if you grab them the first round they are automatically free on there turn on the second round? How and when does one maintain the grab?

well... you thought wrong ^^

"Success: Your opponent is grabbed until the end of your next
turn
unless you move or your opponent Escapes."

they are grabbed until the end of YOUR next turn.

in short:
your turn:
you grapple them, you do your rest actions of the round
their turn:
they can either attempt to break free or do whatever, if they didn't manage to Escape
your next turn:
they are still grabbed and you can still hit them while they are grabbed or do whatever
you turn ends: grapple ends.

So you can keep grappling them to keep them indefinitely if they cannot manage to escape on their own turn with their own actions (Escape is an attack action btw that suffers from MAP)


Yeah, it sounds like they would go free on your next turn if you do nothing.

But you can, according to the first rule quoted, attempt another grapple on your next turn and keep them grappled.


Claxon wrote:
Yeah, it sounds like they would go free on your next turn if you do nothing.

Yeah even for monsters with Grab, they must spend an action to maintain hold. Although for them no check is required.


So if you try to maintain the grapple would the enemy be considered flat footed as you make your Athletics check?


mcintma wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Yeah, it sounds like they would go free on your next turn if you do nothing.
Yeah even for monsters with Grab, they must spend an action to maintain hold. Although for them no check is required.

Hmm good to know, any idea how common monsters with Grab are? Is it a rare occurence?


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Atalius wrote:
So if you try to maintain the grapple would the enemy be considered flat footed as you make your Athletics check?

They are grabbed when you attempt to maintain, so yes.


if the grab is part of the monster attack, they don't need to waste an action simply to grapple.

they can keep hitting and it'll refresh the grab.

the way the grab is getting extended is simply because:

every time you successfully grapple someone, he is grabbed until the end of your next round. There are no weird rules and caveats and flow charts to follow:

grapple check =grabbed till end of next round. Regardless if you were already grappled or not.

so:
round 1:
monster attacks and grabs the character till the end of his next round
character fails to escape
round 2:
(character is still grabbed, so flat footed)
monster attacks and grabs the character till the end of his next round
character fails to escape
round 3:
etcetcetc


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Atalius wrote:
mcintma wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Yeah, it sounds like they would go free on your next turn if you do nothing.
Yeah even for monsters with Grab, they must spend an action to maintain hold. Although for them no check is required.
Hmm good to know, any idea how common monsters with Grab are? Is it a rare occurence?

After searching the bestiary, no it is not rare. Its one of the reasons why I rate the ancestry feat Unfettered Halfling so highly.


Grab is a very common attack trait in the Bestiary.

Grand Lodge

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Can anyone tell me why Grab is Athletics versus... Fortitude? Why not Athletics vs Athletics? Kinda strange.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Likely because every player and creature has a progression of fortitude, whereas a player who was not at least trained in athletics would be effectively autograbbed, after the first few levels.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
shroudb wrote:

if the grab is part of the monster attack, they don't need to waste an action simply to grapple.

they can keep hitting and it'll refresh the grab.

the way the grab is getting extended is simply because:

every time you successfully grapple someone, he is grabbed until the end of your next round. There are no weird rules and caveats and flow charts to follow:

grapple check =grabbed till end of next round. Regardless if you were already grappled or not.

so:
round 1:
monster attacks and grabs the character till the end of his next round
character fails to escape
round 2:
(character is still grabbed, so flat footed)
monster attacks and grabs the character till the end of his next round
character fails to escape
round 3:
etcetcetc

OMG. I've been playing zombies all wrong!


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roll4initiative wrote:
Can anyone tell me why Grab is Athletics versus... Fortitude? Why not Athletics vs Athletics? Kinda strange.

The question for me is why is it fortitude rather than reflex? Dodging aside from someone attempting a hold seems to make more sense than, what? Being really healthy at them?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

That is probably a game balance issue, if most or all combat maneouvers roll versus Reflex DC, it makes Dex more important again.

Trip and Disarm roll against Reflex DC, Shove and Grapple against Fortitude DC.

It may not be perfect, but I like it.


HammerJack wrote:
Likely because every player and creature has a progression of fortitude, whereas a player who was not at least trained in athletics would be effectively autograbbed, after the first few levels.

Although to be fair monsters autoGrab anyway most of the time. Though I agree it should be against fortitude anyway for the reason you list.

Escaping a grappling is against the athletics DC though.


Ravingdork wrote:
shroudb wrote:

if the grab is part of the monster attack, they don't need to waste an action simply to grapple.

they can keep hitting and it'll refresh the grab.

the way the grab is getting extended is simply because:

every time you successfully grapple someone, he is grabbed until the end of your next round. There are no weird rules and caveats and flow charts to follow:

grapple check =grabbed till end of next round. Regardless if you were already grappled or not.

so:
round 1:
monster attacks and grabs the character till the end of his next round
character fails to escape
round 2:
(character is still grabbed, so flat footed)
monster attacks and grabs the character till the end of his next round
character fails to escape
round 3:
etcetcetc

OMG. I've been playing zombies all wrong!

typically, Zombies only have "grab" which does require an action

improved grab is the free action one.


shroudb wrote:

if the grab is part of the monster attack, they don't need to waste an action simply to grapple.

they can keep hitting and it'll refresh the grab.

the way the grab is getting extended is simply because:

every time you successfully grapple someone, he is grabbed until the end of your next round. There are no weird rules and caveats and flow charts to follow:

grapple check =grabbed till end of next round. Regardless if you were already grappled or not.

so:
round 1:
monster attacks and grabs the character till the end of his next round
character fails to escape
round 2:
(character is still grabbed, so flat footed)
monster attacks and grabs the character till the end of his next round
character fails to escape
round 3:
etcetcetc

This appears to be correct, with the caveat that if your attacks with grab failed to hit, then your enemy would go free at the end of your turn in round 2.

So it still might be useful for a creature with grab to "maintain" the grapple by spending a single action on the Grapple. It's the difference of making an athletics check vs fort save vs making an attack roll and then the athletics vs fort.

It's probably unlikely to be necessary, but maybe.


Grab, Bestiary pg 343 wrote:

Grab [one-action] Requirements The monster’s last action was a success with a Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry, or it has a creature grabbed using this action. Effect The monster automatically Grabs the target until the end of the monster’s next turn. The creature is grabbed by whichever body part the monster attacked with, and that body part can’t be used to Strike creatures until the grab is ended.

Using Grab extends the duration of the monster’s Grab until the end of its next turn for all creatures grabbed by it. A grabbed creature can use the Escape action to get out of the grab, and the Grab ends for a grabbed creatures if the monster moves away from it.
Improved Grab, Bestiary pg 343 wrote:
Improved Grab, Improved Knockdown, or Improved Push [free-action] The monster can use Grab, Knockdown, or Push (as appropriate) as a free action triggered by a hit with its initial attack. A monster with Improved Grab still needs to spend an action to extend the duration for creatures it already has grabbed.


Claxon wrote:
shroudb wrote:

if the grab is part of the monster attack, they don't need to waste an action simply to grapple.

they can keep hitting and it'll refresh the grab.

the way the grab is getting extended is simply because:

every time you successfully grapple someone, he is grabbed until the end of your next round. There are no weird rules and caveats and flow charts to follow:

grapple check =grabbed till end of next round. Regardless if you were already grappled or not.

so:
round 1:
monster attacks and grabs the character till the end of his next round
character fails to escape
round 2:
(character is still grabbed, so flat footed)
monster attacks and grabs the character till the end of his next round
character fails to escape
round 3:
etcetcetc

This appears to be correct, with the caveat that if your attacks with grab failed to hit, then your enemy would go free at the end of your turn in round 2.

So it still might be useful for a creature with grab to "maintain" the grapple by spending a single action on the Grapple. It's the difference of making an athletics check vs fort save vs making an attack roll and then the athletics vs fort.

It's probably unlikely to be necessary, but maybe.

it's actually more like "Athletics vs Fort vs Attack vs (flat footed) AC"


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
shroudb wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
shroudb wrote:

if the grab is part of the monster attack, they don't need to waste an action simply to grapple.

they can keep hitting and it'll refresh the grab.

the way the grab is getting extended is simply because:

every time you successfully grapple someone, he is grabbed until the end of your next round. There are no weird rules and caveats and flow charts to follow:

grapple check =grabbed till end of next round. Regardless if you were already grappled or not.

so:
round 1:
monster attacks and grabs the character till the end of his next round
character fails to escape
round 2:
(character is still grabbed, so flat footed)
monster attacks and grabs the character till the end of his next round
character fails to escape
round 3:
etcetcetc

OMG. I've been playing zombies all wrong!

typically, Zombies only have "grab" which does require an action

improved grab is the free action one.

Oh yeah! What was I thinking?

Grand Lodge

Perpdepog wrote:
roll4initiative wrote:
Can anyone tell me why Grab is Athletics versus... Fortitude? Why not Athletics vs Athletics? Kinda strange.
The question for me is why is it fortitude rather than reflex? Dodging aside from someone attempting a hold seems to make more sense than, what? Being really healthy at them?

Lol! Yes! I'm like, "Hmm, fortitude measures your resistance to poison & disease, ability to shake off fatigue, and... not being grabbed. Ohhkayy."


roll4initiative wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
roll4initiative wrote:
Can anyone tell me why Grab is Athletics versus... Fortitude? Why not Athletics vs Athletics? Kinda strange.
The question for me is why is it fortitude rather than reflex? Dodging aside from someone attempting a hold seems to make more sense than, what? Being really healthy at them?
Lol! Yes! I'm like, "Hmm, fortitude measures your resistance to poison & disease, ability to shake off fatigue, and... not being grabbed. Ohhkayy."

Fortitude measures your resistance to being paralyzed and slowed, too.


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roll4initiative wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
roll4initiative wrote:
Can anyone tell me why Grab is Athletics versus... Fortitude? Why not Athletics vs Athletics? Kinda strange.
The question for me is why is it fortitude rather than reflex? Dodging aside from someone attempting a hold seems to make more sense than, what? Being really healthy at them?
Lol! Yes! I'm like, "Hmm, fortitude measures your resistance to poison & disease, ability to shake off fatigue, and... not being grabbed. Ohhkayy."

Fortitude save tends to correlate with strength and mass, so this is an easy way to make it easier to grab the wizard than it is to grab the barbarian, who might have the same reflex saves.


Franz Lunzer wrote:

That is probably a game balance issue, if most or all combat maneouvers roll versus Reflex DC, it makes Dex more important again.

Trip and Disarm roll against Reflex DC, Shove and Grapple against Fortitude DC.

It may not be perfect, but I like it.

I like it too, mechanically, it's just imagining it in-universe where I break down a little.

lordcirth wrote:
Fortitude save tends to correlate with strength and mass, so this is an easy way to make it easier to grab the wizard than it is to grab the barbarian, who might have the same reflex saves.

At least until this got suggested, mostly because I like the image of a fighter or barb simply flexing their way out of a hold or planting their feet to avoid being Shoved.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

That might make sense in-universe, but Fortitude is based on Constitution, not Strength.


Franz Lunzer wrote:
That might make sense in-universe, but Fortitude is based on Constitution, not Strength.

We start off with:

ALL 3 physical stats are interconnected in reality.
You can't really have high agility without also having high strength in real life. You can't have high strength without having high con. and etc.

Then we try to seperate those into game terms to actually play the game:
EVERYTHING about agility is based on Dex. Even if it doesn't totally make sense (8 strength acrobat making flips as good as 18 str acrobat)
EVERYTHING about strength is based on strength. Even if it doesn't actually make sense (being equally accurate with a sword with 8 dex and 18 dex)
EVERYTHING about sturdiness is based on Con. Even if it doesn't make sense. (Not getting pushed back, resisting people who try to restrain you, etc even with 8 Str)

Con is sturdy-ness.

Everything about "being sturdy" has nothing to do with Strength, in game terms, it's ONLY based on your Con.


Garretmander wrote:
Atalius wrote:
So if you try to maintain the grapple would the enemy be considered flat footed as you make your Athletics check?
They are grabbed when you attempt to maintain, so yes.

Apparently this doesn't matter. I've been informed that flat footed is only a penalty to AC and thus would not impact a grapple check.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns Subscriber
shroudb wrote:
if the grab is part of the monster attack, they don't need to waste an action simply to grapple.

I've seen it played that way twice and I must say, this is EXTREMELY WRONG and is making people continue to play it incorrectly.

The bestiary states, page 343:

Quote:

Grab [one-action] Requirements The monster’s last action was a

success with a Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry,
or it has a creature grabbed using this action. Effect The
monster automatically Grabs the target until the end of the
monster’s next turn. The creature is grabbed by whichever
body part the monster attacked with, and that body part
can’t be used to Strike creatures until the grab is ended.
Using Grab extends the duration of the monster’s Grab
until the end of its next turn for all creatures grabbed by it.
A grabbed creature can use the Escape action to get out of
the grab, and the Grab ends for a grabbed creatures if the
monster moves away from it.

Edit: When played incorrectly, it is extremely overpowered. You're giving every creature with that ability (which is a lot of creatures) an extra action per turn. Not cool.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

The only time it's free is if the creature has improved grab (pg 343)

Quote:


Improved Grab, Improved Knockdown, or Improved Push[free-action] The
monster can use Grab, Knockdown, or Push (as appropriate)
as a free action triggered by a hit with its initial attack. A
monster with Improved Grab still needs to spend an action
to extend the duration for creatures it already has grabbed.

For example, a snapping flytrap has improved grab: (pg 160)

Quote:

Melee [one-action] leaf +11 (reach 10 feet), Damage 1d8+2 piercing plus 1d6 acid and Improved Grab


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masterslate wrote:
shroudb wrote:
if the grab is part of the monster attack, they don't need to waste an action simply to grapple.

I've seen it played that way twice and I must say, this is EXTREMELY WRONG and is making people continue to play it incorrectly.

The bestiary states, page 343:

Quote:

Grab [one-action] Requirements The monster’s last action was a

success with a Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry,
or it has a creature grabbed using this action. Effect The
monster automatically Grabs the target until the end of the
monster’s next turn. The creature is grabbed by whichever
body part the monster attacked with, and that body part
can’t be used to Strike creatures until the grab is ended.
Using Grab extends the duration of the monster’s Grab
until the end of its next turn for all creatures grabbed by it.
A grabbed creature can use the Escape action to get out of
the grab, and the Grab ends for a grabbed creatures if the
monster moves away from it.
Edit: When played incorrectly, it is extremely overpowered. You're giving every creature with that ability (which is a lot of creatures) an extra action per turn. Not cool.

You misunderstood.

If you look at my rest posts I do indicate it needs an action for grab and none for imp grab.

The "automatic" I refer in the post you quoted is "no roll needed", you just do it.

The "waste no action" is answering the thing I was quoting about "having to roll grapple checks to keep the target grabbed" (which you don't, after an attack you can simply spent an action and extend the grapple).

I should have been more clear, sure, but the rest posts indicate clearly that it does take an action.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

It’s created enough confusion for people that I’ve been sent this thread to cite grab as being free. So a lot more than me are confused by the wording used.


masterslate wrote:
It’s created enough confusion for people that I’ve been sent this thread to cite grab as being free. So a lot more than me are confused by the wording used.

Point them out in my exact next quote (where I reply to Ravingdork that Zombies still need an action)

If I could edit it, I would. But I can't.


Captain Morgan wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
Likely because every player and creature has a progression of fortitude, whereas a player who was not at least trained in athletics would be effectively autograbbed, after the first few levels.

Although to be fair monsters autoGrab anyway most of the time. Though I agree it should be against fortitude anyway for the reason you list.

Escaping a grappling is against the athletics DC though.

I know some people were kinda mocking the paladin that gets a reaction if something is grabbed/bound but a LOT of critters seem to really be very grabby this edition so it winds up being something that does get used a fair bit.


kaid wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
Likely because every player and creature has a progression of fortitude, whereas a player who was not at least trained in athletics would be effectively autograbbed, after the first few levels.

Although to be fair monsters autoGrab anyway most of the time. Though I agree it should be against fortitude anyway for the reason you list.

Escaping a grappling is against the athletics DC though.

I know some people were kinda mocking the paladin that gets a reaction if something is grabbed/bound but a LOT of critters seem to really be very grabby this edition so it winds up being something that does get used a fair bit.

he is kinda more limited when he deals his "persistent holy" compared to the other 2.

but at least his 5ft step is always amazing AND CG is always far less restrictive than LG and in the Champion case, even from NG (NG has the strictest code imo).


Yeah, Liberating Step could not interact with grabs at all and it would still be exceptionally good. Free five steps are rare in this edition and will in many instances result in an outright loss of action for the enemy who triggered it. The anti-grab stuff is just gravy.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

So, I thought I understood this subject until I listened to Jason Bulmahn on Knights of Everflame tell one of his players that they could also use Athletics or Acrobatics to escape a grab which appears absolutely nowhere in the CRB.

It makes sense that you could wiggle or power your way free, although those ways would count not against your MAP which would seem to over-incentivize their use. It just doesn’t appear to be RAW. Is he “house ruling” his own game? That seems, weird, right?

Interested to hear any thoughts on that.


JamesMaster wrote:

So, I thought I understood this subject until I listened to Jason Bulmahn on Knights of Everflame tell one of his players that they could also use Athletics or Acrobatics to escape a grab which appears absolutely nowhere in the CRB.

It makes sense that you could wiggle or power your way free, although those ways would count not against your MAP which would seem to over-incentivize their use. It just doesn’t appear to be RAW. Is he “house ruling” his own game? That seems, weird, right?

Interested to hear any thoughts on that.

It's right there in the first paragraph of Acrobatics, p. 240 and Athletics, p. 241

Quote:
Acrobatics measures your ability to perform tasks requiring coordination and grace. When you use the Escape basic action (page 470), you can use your Acrobatics modifier instead of your unarmed attack modifier.
Quote:
Athletics allows you to perform deeds of physical prowess. When you use the Escape basic action (page 470), you can use your Athletics modifier instead of your unarmed attack modifier.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Ok. That makes sense.

The way it sounded in play was that the PC could make an Athletics or Acrobatics CHECK to break out of a Grab (avoiding the MAP), not just use a different modifier for the Escape action.

We’ve been playing it that way for weeks—using Athletic or Acrobatics to Escape but treating it as an Attack because it just seemed logical.

Thanks.


JamesMaster wrote:

Ok. That makes sense.

The way it sounded in play was that the PC could make an Athletics or Acrobatics CHECK to break out of a Grab (avoiding the MAP), not just use a different modifier for the Escape action.

We’ve been playing it that way for weeks—using Athletic or Acrobatics to Escape but treating it as an Attack because it just seemed logical.

Thanks.

It also says it in the Escape action itself:

Escape Basic Action wrote:
You can attempt an Acrobatics or Athletics check instead of using your attack modifier if you choose (but this action still has the attack trait).

Too easy to miss stuff in this tome, I tell ya


Have to say. Love the game over all. But.
One thing I had hoped was clear and concise descriptions for combat maneuvers, poisons, haunts, all those things that used to always have to be looked up.
And here we are, with a whole thread of people confused on how grapple works (myself being among them).


To be fair, it seems like most of these people are confused with how monster grapple works, which isn't quite the same thing. There is always going to be confusion with a game this complex, but this system is a dang sight better in my opinion. Especially since combat maneuvers required a suite of feats to be even viable in first.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Experience ends up cleaning most of this up. When you run up against something confusing, do the logical thing. 99% of the time, that’s how the game is supposed to work anyways. The errata kind of proves that. There really were no bombshells there, just a lot of “that’s what I thought.”

But there’s a lot here, and its easy to get it mixed up with other editions and games. I know I read the description of Escape (for instance), it just didn’t stick. We just did the logical thing and it turned out to be right anyways. Now, I doubt I’ll ever have to look up the Grapple rules again. All the common actions will get like that once we’ve played the game more.


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Goodbye "How to Grapple Screen" PDF. You were a worthy purchase, but it's time to retire.

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