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Hello,
I have been doing some asking around, and reading up on the rules regarding sneak attack damage. As it stands, Rogues can make as many sneak attacks per round as they have attacks if they flank. Many players like to use two weapons to magnify this possibility.
I have been doing some thinking, and I believe this truly unbalances the game. Rogues can now do more damage than any other class is capable of, far more.
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Rogues can now do more damage than any other class is capable of, far more.
Please show us an example of the kind of rogue build that makes you think this.
I dunno about that. See, I have seen this build in action, and it outpaced by far the other PC's, even before it got multiple attacks to work with. Since you can dish out sneak attack damage with every attack while flanking, I get worried as a DM fast. In the past, this build easily outpaces the other warrior types in damage dealing and attack bonuses. On top of that, since the primary spellcasters' save or die spells are easy to resist normally by any target that is worthy of blowing an entire spell slot in killing a single monster, this build's damage dealing seems to be the way to go.
It's nothing stunning, but it is all perfectly legal. Yes, it does need flanking, but it wouldn't be difficult to make it (in the upper levels of xp) to remove that restriction.
Roll up your attributes as normal, and just for nightmare fuel, we will max out dexterity. To make it somewhat more realistic, lets assume only an 8 Strength after racial modifiers. That race would be goblin. This means your starting dexterity is 22.
Okay, now add in the fact that it's a Unchained Rogue, and uses the Knife Master archetype. You have a massive starting Stealth rating, at roughly +18. This doesn't count the effects of any character traits you might have spent, the availability of which depends on which AP or what material your DM allows.
You get Weapon Finesse (daggers) for free, and you use your first level feat for Two Weapon Fighting. Of course, you don't really have to use TWF right away, but you will later. Your patron deity is Pharasma, and you start placing ranks in Knowledge Religion. This means you attack at first level with Dexterity at +6, size +1, but take a -2 penalty for using TWF and a pair of daggers. Total being +5 to hit, but you get another +2 for flanking, so +7. Your damage is a measly 1d3-1, but you get a +1d8 damage for sneak attack. Nothing to write home about, but you do get 2 attacks.
At 2nd level, use your rogue talent to grab Weapon Focus (daggers). Place another rank in Knowledge Religion. Note that the feat applies to both daggers.
At 3rd level, take Deific Obedience (Pharasma) from Inner Sea Gods. This grants a +2 to hit with daggers, so long as you have 3 ranks in Religion and Pharasma is your patron, and you do your funky ritual each morning. Now you attack (with flanking) at +14 to hit, assuming you picked up a masterwork Small dagger. Your damage jumps dramatically to 1d3+6 and your sneak attack is now +2d8. You still only get 2 attacks though, but of course you can dish out sneak attack damage for both.
At 4th level, take Powerful Sneak as your rogue talent. Ultimately I think it's going to do more damage than Bleeding Attack. You want to at least have average damage on the d8's.
At 5th level, grab Outflank with the party warrior. This grants an additional +2 on top of normal flanking bonuses to hit. For your Rogue's Edge, give it to Bluff.
By now, you are probably earning enough gold to start enchanting the dagger itself. Typically, you want to get it up to a +5 just for the bonus to hit. I note that my players normally slap a Holy on it because most opponents tend to be evil aligned, and a Keen just to up critical hit damage. If in a campaign that relies heavily on certain enemy types, feel free to slap a Bane on it. I ran Carrion Crown (undead) and Giantslayer (giants). Sometimes players make their daggers with adamantine just for the difficulty to damage the weapon itself. Oh, and since you have such high Dexterity, you will probably want to grab a Belt of Dexterity +6, and Celestial Armor just to take advantage of all those Dexterity bonuses to AC (BTW, I figured the Celestial enchantment alone costs 10k in gp). Eventually, you can grab either 5 Wishes or a Tome of Dexterity +5 to up your Dexterity to the max. Oh, and grab a Ring of Invisibility just for kicks so you can nail someone without needing flanking.
At 6th, try getting Lasting Poison. You may not have Poison Use to negate the 5% chance for nailing yourself, but let's assume the player doesn't care that it's a glass cannon. Use poison that does Constitution damage if possible.
At 7th level, you are doing more damage than the party warrior easily, and are hitting far more often, since you don't need as many attributes to concentrate your best scores in. Just to do more damage, try grabbing Precise Strike with your party warrior for an additional +1d6 damage. Again, it's not great, but it does do more damage on a regular basis. I'm sure someone else would care about spending it on some other feat like Vital Strike. This build is lethal enough as it is; I just don't care.
At 8th level, grab Certainty as your Rogue talent, and use it with Bluff if you have to attack an enemy you aren't flanking and want to sneak attack. It's not ideal, but it IS handy.
At 9th level, grab Improved TWF as your feat. That's 4 attacks per round.
At 10th level, take Deadly Sneak rogue talent. For the price of -2 to attack, you can reroll 1's and 2's on your currently +5d8 sneak attack dice. Total, you are sucking up a -4 to attack with TWF, but you've got a pretty huge bonus to attack by now so it's a moot point.
At 12th level, take Opportunist rogue talent. This means at least 5 attacks per round MOST OF THE TIME, since your partner is going to be hitting the opponent as well.
Honestly, it's way late, and I have to get up at 6am tomorrow, so I am calling it quits for the night. But, I am sure all of you can come up with improvements to this build. The point is, when you can continually dish out sneak attack damage with every attack you make, and almost never miss, this is just too damned broken. Me, I would like to see some sort of limit on how many times a round you can use sneak attack.
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That all sounds like completely normal TWF rogue stuff. It's largely considered unreliable and circumstantial.
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ok a few problems with your assumptions.
1) sneak attacks are d6's not d8's, im assuming this is simply a typo.
2) TWF and the improved versions require a full action to deal the additional attacks, ANY movement greater than a 5 ft. step breaks this
3)Flanking requires tactical placement, and thus you would need to MOVE to do it
4) poisons are very weak and easy to overcome so they are a non threat
5) at 5th level you are going to be lucky to get a +1 weapon/armor, let alone any of the nice things like belts or tomes, these are a progression which means that even when you get the better things the amount of damage your dealing means less and less.
TL;DR your assumptions don't take into account how often you are likely to get everything just right to make this build work, and if you are dming and NOT moving your monsters around the board knowing full well that your rogue needs to stay put to get all his hits off, then you are doing it incorrectly. you have to utilize the same tactics your players use in an encounter, it is after all a tactical war game with RPG elements :)
With a very niche archetype they become d8'sok a few problems with your assumptions.
1) sneak attacks are d6's not d8's, im assuming this is simply a typo.
granted; this is one of the lesser point though. However i absolutely agree with your statement about items.
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If you are giving the party rogue a +5 holy keen bane dagger, [...]
Two Weapon Fighting. That makes two +5 holy keen bane daggers.
@Piccolo
This isn't the first time I've seen someone voice concerns about a Rogue unbalancing a game, but it's generally only a problem if the Rogue is a seasoned player and the rest of the party are not.
It's easy to rack up the damage numbers, especially if you've got a pocket-fighter who apparently not only sacrifices their own full-round action to secure flank, but also chooses teamwork feats to aid you.
Your example build has no way to reliably pull off their sneak attack, no way to close the distance to opponents, and as with most rogues it will get destroyed by a CR-equivalent fortitude/will save.
Also:
4.5 = (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8)/8
Powerful Sneak d8 mean value:
4.9375 = (4.5+2+3+4+5+6+7+8)/8
Average damage gained per sneak attack die: 0.4375
Cost: One rogue talent, and a -2 penalty to attack.
Verdict: Worse trade-off than Piranha Strike until you reach level 19 (10d8 sneak attack). I wouldn't take this talent even if there was no attack penalty.
*****
Normal d8 mean value:
4.5
Deadly Sneak d8 mean value:
5.25 = (4.5+4.5+3+4+5+6+7+8)/8
Average damage gained per sneak attack die: 0.75
Cost: Two rogue talents (one advanced), and a -2 penalty to attack.
Verdict: At level 11 (6d8 sneak attack) you'll deal +4.5 dmg per hit. But even then, this benefit isn't worth paying two rogue talents for. Especially since that -2 penalty means you'll deal (on average) 10% less damage per round.
So if we low-ball your damage per hit at level 11, and say 35 (1d3+6+6d8), that means you'll lose a tenth of that. So that +4.5 is effectively +1 dmg.
And that's why most people don't bother with Powerful Sneak. There are a lot more interesting things to do than to lower your accuracy even further.
Also, the advanced talent gives you a lower average increase of damage than the normal one.
(0.4375) vs (0.3125)
*****
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Just off the top of my head, powerful sneak actually reduces your average damage - the -2 attack it applies outweighs the trivial damage bonus. If you're relying on stuff like this then I doubt your rogue has much chance of doing well.
Edit: ninja'd, by a better built rogue.
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Is there a rules question somewhere? Or are you just complaining about power imbalance? Because there's a place for that, and it's not here. But I do sincerely hope you find that place, because when you come in and complain about rogues being overpowered I can't wait to witness what happens.
ok a few problems with your assumptions.
You are forgetting that the build has the Knife Master template, which is why the d8's.
As for the gear, that's simply the list of what you'd get over time, most of which is pretty ordinary.
I wasn't able to finish the build, as I was too tired, had to get up in 7 hours for work. And I am just back from work, and I am pooped.
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I want to wait around to see your reaction when someone in your group builds a magus designed to nova.
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Am I missing something here?
I get worried as a DM fast
If you are the GM and the rogue in your game is way out of scale with the rest of the party either work with/for beefing up the other PCs or throw in an occasional “anti-rogue” encounter (like elementals or Spring-attackers) so the rest of the party can shine.
lol
Yeah. That's how sneak attack works. Nothing unbalanced about it. No need for nerfing. My guess is you haven't seen Mythic Vital Strike in action yet.
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Personal attacks won't make Rogue any more or less powerful. This looks yet another martials can't have nice things thread. The rogue is already considered weak so asking whether sneak attack applies on full attacks and hoping the devs will say no is just more martial bullying.
It is not surprising to see an optimized rogue outpace a non-optimal character. Your standard rogue has to flank to get sneak attack damage and you usually get a dead rogue. The more optimized and experienced rogue invests into better sneak attack options and has his barbarian do the flanking. If the rogue goes knifemaster and his barbarian goes stalwart defender with a sword and shield and no twf, the rogue will do more damage though that alone doesn't mean that he's outpacing the barbarian because they have different goals. Besides, Rage Lance Pounce beats Knifemaster Scout any day.
Powerful Sneak: Normal d8 mean value:
4.5 = (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8)/8Powerful Sneak d8 mean value:
4.9375 = (4.5+2+3+4+5+6+7+8)/8Average damage gained per sneak attack die: 0.4375
Cost: One rogue talent, and a -2 penalty to attack.
Verdict: Worse trade-off than Piranha Strike until you reach level 19 (10d8 sneak attack). I wouldn't take this talent even if there was no attack penalty.
*****
Normal d8 mean value:
4.5Deadly Sneak d8 mean value:
5.25 = (4.5+4.5+3+4+5+6+7+8)/8Average damage gained per sneak attack die: 0.75
Cost: Two rogue talents (one advanced), and a -2 penalty to attack.
Verdict: At level 11 (6d8 sneak attack) you'll deal +4.5 dmg per hit. But even then, this benefit isn't worth paying two rogue talents for. Especially since that -2 penalty means you'll deal (on average) 10% less damage per round.
You have overestimated the value of these talents. You don't get a re-roll, you get an increased die value:
PRDWhenever a rogue with this talent takes a full attack action, she can elect to take a –2 penalty on all attack rolls until the start of her next turn. If an attack during this time is a sneak attack, she treats all 1s on the sneak attack damage dice as 2s.
Whenever a rogue with this talent uses the powerful sneak rogue talent, she treats all 1s and 2s on the sneak attack damage dice as 3s. A rogue must have the powerful sneak rogue talent before choosing this talent.
d6 normal: 3.5 = [1+2+3+4+5+6]/6
d6 w Powerful Sneak: 3.666 = [2+2+3+4+5+6]/6 @ -2 & 1 talentGain: +1/6 damage per die, or +1 damage for 12 levels
d6 w Powerful Sneak & Deadly Sneak: 4.000 = [3+3+3+4+5+6]/6 @ -2 & 2 talents
Gain: +1/2 damage per die, or +1 damage for 4 levels
d8 normal: 4.5 = [1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8]/8
d8 w Powerful Sneak: 4.625 = [2+2+3+4+5+6+7+8]/8 @ -2 & 1 talent
Gain: +1/8 damage per die, or +1 damage for 16 levels
d8 w Powerful Sneak & Deadly Sneak: 4.875 = [3+3+3+4+5+6+7+8]/8 @ -2 & 2 talents
Gain: +3/8 damage per die, or +1 damage for 4 or 6 levels
SRD
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
Gain: +2 damage, or +1 damage for 2 levels [main hand] and +1 damage, or +1 damage for 4 levels [off hand] @ -1 per 4 levels
For the same penalty, at level 8, you get +4 damage w/Piranha Strike vs +4/6 (+4/8) damage w/Powerful Sneak or +2 (+1 1/2) damage with Powerful Sneak & Deadly Sneak./cevah
edit: reordered text
It sounds like someone is looking at the number of future sneak attack dice without considering how hard those attacks are to land. Not only does the BAB scale slower for the rogue, but the accuracy penalty from two weapon fighting and the penalty of the iteratives drive the chances way down for most of the rogue attacks to hit. And if the rogue should get really luck sometimes, then great. It’s not worse than the wizard ending the combat instantly, with some save or die spell.
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You have overestimated the value of these talents. You don't get a re-roll, you get an increased die value:
Oh wow. Your quotes really made me confused since I was adamantly certain that I'd read 'reroll'.
And then when I searched for Powerful Sneak it said to treat them as 2's.
But I was so sure, like I'd read it word for word.
Even though the truth was staring me in the face, it was too blinding. I had to look away.
Luckily, I found the real version.
Check out the Unchained version of Powerful Sneak, apparently it's different from the chained version, and also I'm not going crazy.
@Piccolo
At 7th level, you are doing more damage than the party warrior easily, and are hitting far more often, since you don't need as many attributes to concentrate your best scores in. Just to do more damage, try grabbing Precise Strike with your party warrior for an additional +1d6 damage. Again, it's not great, but it does do more damage on a regular basis. I'm sure someone else would care about spending it on some other feat like Vital Strike. This build is lethal enough as it is; I just don't care.
Alright, so if I assume you've bought (two) +1 Daggers and a Belt of Dexterity at level 7, I get a +19 to Attack (while flanking). Since the average AC of a CR 7 creature is 20, I'd say you have a fairly high bonus.
(I'm not counting the Powerful Sneak rogue talent, because frankly, it's worse than not having it)So that's +19/+19 (1d3+8+5d6, 19-20), which is on average 50.35 dmg per round against a CR 7 opponent (would be 54.15 if you had Double Slice).
Your 'party warrior', who is a standard two-handed weapon wielding fighter, should have an attack routine of +19/+14 (1d10+19+1d6, 18-20), which is on average just over 52 dmg per round.
Mutation Warrior archetype
Feats:
Outflank
Precise Strike
Power Attack
+6 feats
Class Abilities:
Weapon Training +1
Mutagen
Wings
Bravery +2
Magic Items:
Fauchard, +1 (Reach and Trip properties)
Belt of Strength +2
Cracked White Pyramid Ioun Stone (proficiency with Fauchard)
*****
Your example rogue does actually have less damage dealt at level 7 than a very basic 'party warrior'. The fighter still has 6 more feats to use, and it's not surprising that a new player wouldn't know how to best use them.
Your example rogue on the other hand is very straightforward. TWF feats and attack bonuses. If an inexperienced player had to play a fighter or rogue, and the rogue was promised flanking full-attacks, then the rogue will come up on top.
Here's an example of how to raise the dpr with just three of these feats:
Cornugon Smash, Intimidating Prowess, Hurtful: Gain a Swift action attack.
+30 average dmg per turn
You have overestimated the value of these talents. You don't get a re-roll, you get an increased die value:Oh wow. Your quotes really made me confused since I was adamantly certain that I'd read 'reroll'.
And then when I searched for Powerful Sneak it said to treat them as 2's.
But I was so sure, like I'd read it word for word.
Even though the truth was staring me in the face, it was too blinding. I had to look away.
Luckily, I found the real version.
Check out the Unchained version of Powerful Sneak, apparently it's different from the chained version, and also I'm not going crazy.
OK, I missed the unchained version of the talent.
There is no unchained version of he Deadly Sneak talent, so it does not get you a re-roll.
So... the unchained talent gives the following:
d6 normal: 3.5 = [1+2+3+4+5+6]/6
d6 w Powerful Sneak: 3.917 = [3.5+2+3+4+5+6]/6 @ -2 & 1 talent
Gain: +0.417 damage per die, or +1 damage for 4.8 levels
d6 w Powerful Sneak & Deadly Sneak: 4.083 = [3+3+3+4+5+6]/6 @ -2 & 2 talents
Gain: +0.583 damage per die, or +1 damage for 3.4 levels
d8 normal: 4.5 = [1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8]/8
d8 w Powerful Sneak: 4.938 = [2+2+3+4+5+6+7+8]/8 @ -2 & 1 talent
Gain: +0.438 damage per die, or +1 damage for 4.6 levels
d8 w Powerful Sneak & Deadly Sneak: 5.062 = [3+3+3+4+5+6+7+8]/8 @ -2 & 2 talents
Gain: +0.562 damage per die, or +1 damage for 3.6 levels
/cevah
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Just as a suggestion, why don't you poke around in the dpr olympics thread? It might help develop your appreciation for what character builds can really do.
While you're poking through the characters, consider that there has been several years of new content not represented there that would push all those numbers up.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kac7&page=1?The-DPR-Olympics-or-Im-not-the -mechanic-here
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mhpi&page=1?The-DPR-Summer-Olympics-or-Wha t-are-we
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Where is AM BARBARIAN when you need him?
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Alright, I'm going to attempt to contribute a constructive post, here.
Piccolo, if you're concerned about the power level of a Rogue, then honestly Pathfinder is probably a poor fit for your gaming preferences. You may prefer to get and stay up to date on the Work-in-Progress that is Pathfinder 2.0, or you may prefer the lower power level of 5th Edition Dungeons & Dragons.
The reason that you're receiving the kind of reactions you are is because your concern is honestly absurd - and I don't mean that to mock or upset you. A well-built rogue is literally one of the weakest martial options that a player could bring to your table. At this stage in Pathfinder's life cycle, there are literally hundreds of builds out there (that are not that difficult to make) that out-damage a rogue. Seriously. Literally hundreds. I was going to say dozens, and then I just started doing the math.
So - honest answer - if rogue concerns you, then Pathfinder is just not your game, mate.
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I'm a bit confused. I came here expecting an foggy issue that has been pressing on many minds. Really, this seems more of a Rarely Stated Declaration rather than a Frequently Asked Question.
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As for the actual rule:
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
OP is going to be really upset the first time he sees what an Archer Paladin gets up to.
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Rogues are extremely powerful melee combatants with a few well placed dips and feat chains. Generally, you do more damage by 2H power attacking than with TWF though, even with counting the extra sneak attack damage. Add in the excellent skills and other utility features and the Rogue is one of the best classes in the game. My current PC for the Hell's Rebels campaign is an absolute monster. Currently, he is a Unchained Rogue 12 / Barbarian 2 / Fighter 1.
The dude does 14D6+45 (2D6+33 normal attack +6D6 sneak attack damage +6D6 Sap Master + 12 Sap Adept) non-lethal damage per hit. After the buffs, he usually hits at least 4(5 with the hurtful feat and 6 opportunist) times with an average damage of 94 per hit. That is almost 400-600 damage per round. I Sometimes I miss with the last hit, although, only 1 or 2 bosses have lasted more than one round against him since about level 9 or 10.
Rogues also do better, the more your party crowds the field. A friendly summoner can really help the rogue shine.
Sneak attack, is on average a +3 bonus to damage per hit. Do you worry about a bard with power attack pulling +6 to damage from one feat and a class feature?
A rogue in a flank puts out damage but it isn't that much compared to other people who can do more damage in a less situational way.
It's already been shown that by RAW and most likely RAI since rogues are traditionally two weapon fighters that rogues can Sneak attack as often as they hit.
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it unless the rest of the group is feeling like they aren't doing anything by comparison.
If that's the case just make some encounters that play better to the rest of the groups strengths.
but honestly, sneak attack is not a strong ability. It's very mediocre and while it may seem like a lot on paper others do a whole lot more.
Any two handed weapon user with a keen falchion is significantly more scary than any rogue build out there, except an UnRogue using a keen Elven curve blade for 1.5X Dex to damage. In which case the rogue is kinda scary, more so with dips in Urban barb/bloodrager for more dex, but then again that character is more of a melee fighter with some rogue levels rather than a rogue.
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I stand by my original post. I think it's unbalancing to allow the Rogue to dish out sneak attack damage with every successful attack while flanking.
You're of course free to think that, and to rule as you like in your own home game, and thus further weaken an already weak class, but the official rule is very clear in the Core Rulebook and certainly not in need of any clarification by Paizo staff.
While we're at it, do you think it is as unbalancing that the paladin gets his smite evil damage bonus on every attack? The swashbuckler to get precise strike damage bonus on each attack? A high level monk to use his increased damage dice on each attack? The fighter to get his Weapon Specialization and weapon training damage bonuses on each attack? Because that's all basically the same kind of mechanic.
Hello,
I have been doing some asking around, and reading up on the rules regarding sneak attack damage. As it stands, Rogues can make as many sneak attacks per round as they have attacks if they flank. Many players like to use two weapons to magnify this possibility.
I have been doing some thinking, and I believe this truly unbalances the game. Rogues can now do more damage than any other class is capable of, far more.
What is the official Ruling that you're asking for? I get that you mean that Rogues are too powerful, but do you want somebody from Paizo to do .. exactly, what?
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The core rulebook is quite clear: any attack from a rogue that is flanking allows for a sneak attack, unless the target is immune to sneak attacks. Everyone who has replied is in agreement to that except for the OP.
OP, you may disagree with what the rules state, and if you're running your own game feel free to rule how many times a round a rogue can get sneak attack. It's your own game, after all, and the rulebooks are ultimately meant to be guidelines for how you want to play the game. But that is your own homebrew rules, and not due to any convoluted rules. In the right conditions, sneak attack will always get added to every attack a rogue can make, no matter how many that is.
The rules forum is intended for discussion on Rules as Written, and searching for validation of your interpretation whilst ignoring blatant proof of the opposite will only lead you to disappointment and frustration.
If you truly wish to further this discussion, I would suggest posting in the homebrew forum for suggestions on how you could go about making your own rules for sneak attack to be balanced.