Alchemist First Look Review
Let me begin with the following caveats regarding this review: I am a new Pathfinder player who has looked over PF1 a couple of years ago but never played beyond a single one-shot, I have not yet played the class but have looked over it trying to understand its mechanics, and I have yet to play PF2 in any capacity yet. Below are my thoughts on the class based upon where I am as a player and as a potential GM. Having said the below, note I *still* plan on playing an alchemist because I like the class flavor--I want this class to be able to succeed as an interesting choice that adds to a party. Below is my subjective, raw opinion after pouring over the material for the last two days. Thank you Paizo for your work on this system so far. I like what I see for the most part and just think it needs some love.
The Good
*Flavor: The class, to me, has interesting and intriguing flavor of a gadget user in a sword-and-sorcery setting. The idea of either become an arguably-insane bomber, a crafty poisoner, or something of a shape-shifter is appealing.
*Bombs: The bombs are potentially an engaging, interesting mechanic with a lot of utility—particularly since they are tied to formulae which could become potentially highly diverse over time and there is no stated limited to how many formulae an alchemist can have (you can have multiple formulae books). This translates into potentially having higher level bombs which might then be multiplied—contingent upon the design choices going forward. Furthermore, more and more base formulae could grant further CC effects or potentially become buff “bombs” or healing “bombs” (which would be awesome!).
*Quick Alchemy: The ability to rapidly produce an alchemical item appropriate to the situation is both interesting from a both a roleplaying and mechanical standpoint.
The Opportunities
*Infuse: This mechanic essentially keeps the Alchemist from double paying for his own alchemy, however, it does make the characters double pay for assisting their party whereas the buffs and heals of others largely do not require resources from both.
*Bombs: Bombs, in general, required a great deal of investment to seem attractive at this point. Between the fact that they do not inherently deal +Int damage, have really-short range, cause splash damage to allies (which makes investing in the splash damage *also* complicates), create action-economy issues with drawing them, and eat into the scarce RP pool. Beyond that, the bombs do negligible damage given their cost if crafted using downtime making them functionally largely useless.
*Skills: Alchemists supposedly represent a highly capable proto-scientist with a variety of capabilities. In PF2, however, he is represented as a skill user only slightly better than a wizard despite his significant advantage over the wizard in 1E. He is only better in terms of skills because he has one more signature skill in medicine. In comparison to others, he will likely only have more because other class simply do not need to invest in intelligence (but if they did most of them would destroy him in terms of starting proficiencies and in number of signature skills). Given his modest capabilities in other areas, his lack of diverse skills makes him potentially painfully inadequate to most situations.
The Disappointments
Quick Alchemy: The fact that all alchemy modifications and most feat enhancements strictly affect items created via Quick Alchemy, it seems to exasperate resource issues deeply embedded in the class based upon the observations of others and what one expects from the class. This may not be the case once all class feats and options are released, but initially that seems to be the case, which is rather aggravating given that the additive key word hints that not all bomb modifications would be via Quick Alchemy.
Quick Alchemy: Seems to only functionally work with a handful of items given the action requirement to make and use the item combined with the limitation of 1 turn duration and only common items (i.e. no mutagens). Please make Enduring Alchemy more worthwhile—maybe that it increases the duration by half your class levels + your int mod. That way poisons make sense (which is important given that Powerful Alchemy is limited to items created via Quick Alchemy).
Poisons: The alchemist needs a better way to increase the save DC on poisons. Between the fact that low level poisons do not do significant damage and level appropriate poisons already have a save DC at or higher than the alchemist’s class DC, it seems odd that the ways to heighten poisons save DC limit your ability to use lower-level potentially interesting poisons (such as the drow sleep poison).
Suggestions:
*Throwing: Make the alchemist inherently apply his Int modifier to the damage of *all* thrown items, including un-infused bombs.
*Quick Bomber: Change Quick Bomber to allow the alchemist to draw bombs as a free action—potentially once per turn.
*Bombs: Reduce the cost of bomb formulas or give the alchemist a way to stock up on “mundane” bombs at little to no cost such as up to a cap of Int+level (perhaps starting at level 5). Leave most of the improvements to infused bombs but include formula for more powerful bombs.
*Infuse: Make infuse remove the RP cost all together. Given how problematic elixirs will be to administer during combat, this should make it superior for out of combat healing and inferior for in combat healing and give the cleric legitimate competition as a healer.
*Skills: Increase the number of starting skill proficiencies that the Alchemists has at level one to at least 5+Int. This will give him a few less than the rogue, whose rapid increases will keep her the skill master.
I would also concur to most of these points. Also things made during your downtime using advanced alchemy NEED to have access to the same DC improving abilities as quick alchemy. It seems really freaking strange that the most potent hard to avoid save items an alchemist can make can only be made using quick alchemy.
For the infuse stuff I am fine with it costing RP to make the free elixers/bombs BUT once you pay for it nobody else should have to pay for it to use it or drink it. There is no need to ding both parties for this as the alchemist is already highly limited on how many infused items he can make a day. So its not like the unlimited CL wand issue there is a finite total so one person paying that cost is fine it should not ding both for it.
They should not need 2 or 3 different feats to make the DC of their alchemical items to keep up with their level for infused items. Given their bread and butter stuff even to late levels are going to be "low level" items those need to scale more consistently without such a large feat tax and if the feat tax is kept it HAS to apply to both advanced alchemy AND quick alchemy.
most of that stuff is what bothers me as well, and is really apparent at as early as level 5-7 that the alchemist lags a lot behind other classes.
I want to add an even greater oversight in the sense that you CAN'T simultaneously use the stuff you make with your abilities in downtime (you do gain alchemy crafting feat, several class feats focused on downtime crafting, and etc) normally exactly because that stuff you make on downtime is not infused, and you already spend your RP on your daily things.
As of now:
There is not a single reason why an alchemist has to spend his RP to make his class stuff instead of, like EVERY OTHER CLASS, has it's own, separate, class resource.
p.s. also remove the 2 turn delay on mutagens (again, no reason to exist other than make a mutagen focused alchemist lose half the battle every time
and also let feral mutagen be affected, in some capacity, by magic items (at this point it just replaces them, making it semi redundant)
Is there anything that stops the damage bonus from Handwraps of Mighty Strikes from stacking with the damage bonus of Bestial Mutagen?
You mean the extra dice?
Good question.
They aren't explicitly called out as being a typed bonus, but if we assume that any +X bonus gets applied to a weapon making it magical (the whole +1 weapon thing) it's the +X that adds the bonus dice (i.e. that's what it does) then the +X from the mutagen and the +X from the Handwraps don't stack because they're both "item bonus" and the extra dice use the same value of whichever bonus is larger.
Is there anything that stops the damage bonus from Handwraps of Mighty Strikes from stacking with the damage bonus of Bestial Mutagen?
You mean the extra dice?
Good question.
They aren't explicitly called out as being a typed bonus, but if we assume that any +X bonus gets applied to a weapon making it magical (the whole +1 weapon thing) it's the +X that adds the bonus dice (i.e. that's what it does) then the +X from the mutagen and the +X from the Handwraps don't stack because they're both "item bonus" and the extra dice use the same value of whichever bonus is larger.
But that's not explicitly stated anywhere.
The reason I ask is because Bestial Mutagen doesn't have a +x. It "increases to x damage dice"
So I just saw that mutagens don't even work with Advanced Alchemy or Quick Alchemy since they are uncommon . . . RIP Mutagens
I can see that they don't work with quick alchemy, but why not advanced alchemy? I don't see where advanced alchemy limits you to common alchemical items.
Also, as a general question, how long does it take to create an alchemical item for a non-alchemist? Does it really take 30 days to make a flask of acid for a 1st level PC? 1 sp per day, and it costs 3 GP (which seems like an error - maybe 3 SP?), so 30 days. Or should it be 3 days?
Do the alchemical items seem overly expensive considering that silver is now the base cost for everything?
So I just saw that mutagens don't even work with Advanced Alchemy or Quick Alchemy since they are uncommon . . . RIP Mutagens
I can see that they don't work with quick alchemy, but why not advanced alchemy? I don't see where advanced alchemy limits you to common alchemical items.
First paragraph under Advanced Alchemy:
"You can use this feat to create common alchemical items as long as you have their formulas in your formula book, thought their power is fleeting."
So, it's actually worse. Alchemists can currently only make common alchemical items at all without taking the alchemical crafting feat separately.
Benefit You gain a +3 item bonus to Athletics checks and
unarmed attack rolls.
"Attack rolls" get an item bonus, yeah. But the damage is just the "increases to" I mentioned. Which in 1E would indicate they were different things, but here I'm not sure.
Efficient Alchemist let's me create 8 alchemical items in a single batch, but I still need to spend the cost for them. How much does that cost?
According to the crafting skill, 1/2 cost. At level 4, that's 6 x 8, or 48 gold for one batch. At 6 SP per day, it takes us 80 days to make this, and it costs us more money than the GM section says we should have at this level (30 GP).
What about a level 1 item? How many 3 GP acid flasks can we make? 1.5 x 8 = 12 GP. We've now spent nearly half our gold on 8 acid flasks, and it take us 20 days to make it.
Note that the Downtime rules state that taking weeks off at a time can be challenging for the story and game. So it's expected that you only take a few days at a time, withonger periods being more rare.
What's the point of doubling our batch size if we don't have the money to make it and it takes forever to produce?
So I just saw that mutagens don't even work with Advanced Alchemy or Quick Alchemy since they are uncommon . . . RIP Mutagens
I can see that they don't work with quick alchemy, but why not advanced alchemy? I don't see where advanced alchemy limits you to common alchemical items.
Also, as a general question, how long does it take to create an alchemical item for a non-alchemist? Does it really take 30 days to make a flask of acid for a 1st level PC? 1 sp per day, and it costs 3 GP (which seems like an error - maybe 3 SP?), so 30 days. Or should it be 3 days?
Do the alchemical items seem overly expensive considering that silver is now the base cost for everything?
The Item crafting rules say, take 4 days, -1 day for each character level above item level, spent half at the start(15SPish) and half at the end(15SP), but you can spend additional days crafting and using the crafting skill to reduce the cost for each day work, discount based on level/proficiency. Consumables like elixirs can be made in batches of 4 at a time (there's a reference that this isn't always a case in an alchemist ability, but other references to batches don't seem to have anything about variable batch size)
A level 4 Expert alchemist that makes 4 Lesser Elixir of lifes (level 4)
Spends 4 days creating the items, spending 24 GP, makes a craft check against DC 19(high DC for level 4 items). They have a +11 bonus (+6 proficiency, +4 Int, +1 high quality tools), so if they're successful, they can spend additional days reducing the cost of the project by 6 SP per day spent, which is about the same rate for those who are practicing a trade or putting on a performance. If they critically succeed, they treat their level as one higher, reducing the cost of the project by 10SP or 1 GP per day.
When they decide to finish crafting, they must pay the remaining balance left on crafting the item, so the alchemist who spent 5 extra days reduces the cost of his batch of elixirs by 3GP and must pay the remaining 21 GP(whole cost of batch is 48 GP, half(24) is paid at the start of craft, made 3 gp worth of crafting effort, leaving 21 GP unaccounted for).
EDIT: Ninja'd super hard while trying to write this.
The Item crafting rules say, take 4 days, -1 day for each character level above item level, spent half at the start(15SPish) and half at the end(15SP), but you can spend additional days crafting and using the crafting skill to reduce the cost for each day work, discount based on level/proficiency. Consumables like elixirs can be made in batches of 4 at a time (there's a reference that this isn't always a case in an alchemist ability, but other references to batches don't seem to have anything about variable batch size)
I missed the initial time cost.
Everything here makes me suspect that all alchemical itmes should be listed in silver, not gold.
Efficient Alchemist let's me create 8 alchemical items in a single batch, but I still need to spend the cost for them. How much does that cost?
According to the crafting skill, 1/2 cost. At level 4, that's 6 x 8, or 48 gold for one batch. At 6 SP per day, it takes us 80 days to make this, and it costs us more money than the GM section says we should have at this level (30 GP).
What about a level 1 item? How many 3 GP acid flasks can we make? 1.5 x 8 = 12 GP. We've now spent nearly half our gold on 8 acid flasks, and it take us 20 days to make it.
Note that the Downtime rules state that taking weeks off at a time can be challenging for the story and game. So it's expected that you only take a few days at a time, withonger periods being more rare.
What's the point of doubling our batch size if we don't have the money to make it and it takes forever to produce?
It looks not like it's not supposed to be for exactly on-level items, but more for mass producing lower level items that you'll get use out of, ie, a level 7 mass producing a bunch of lesser elixirs of life, 8 in a single pay half upfront for 72 GP, and reduce the leftover cost by 2 GP a day, 3 on a critical Success, which will be easier at a higher level.
It looks not like it's not supposed to be for exactly on-level items, but more for mass producing lower level items that you'll get use out of, ie, a level 7 mass producing a bunch of lesser elixirs of life, 8 in a single pay half upfront for 72 GP, and reduce the leftover cost by 2 GP a day, 3 on a critical Success, which will be easier at a higher level.
That's *half* your WBL gold for eight one use items three levels below you.
The Item crafting rules say, take 4 days, -1 day for each character level above item level, spent half at the start(15SPish) and half at the end(15SP), but you can spend additional days crafting and using the crafting skill to reduce the cost for each day work, discount based on level/proficiency. Consumables like elixirs can be made in batches of 4 at a time (there's a reference that this isn't always a case in an alchemist ability, but other references to batches don't seem to have anything about variable batch size)
I missed the initial time cost.
Everything here makes me suspect that all alchemical itmes should be listed in silver, not gold.
Based on costs, compared to other consumables? No, they're absolutely priced correctly, it's just that crafting isn't the huge discount it was in PF 1, it allows you to guarantee that you'll be able to get what you want, but making money off of it in any form has been balanced to fit alongside your friends that'll be performing at bars and eventually theaters, or the bouncer who works his way up to a convoy manager.
It looks not like it's not supposed to be for exactly on-level items, but more for mass producing lower level items that you'll get use out of, ie, a level 7 mass producing a bunch of lesser elixirs of life, 8 in a single pay half upfront for 72 GP, and reduce the leftover cost by 2 GP a day, 3 on a critical Success, which will be easier at a higher level.
That's *half* your WBL gold for eight one use items three levels below you.
Recommended gold for a level 7 PC is 125 GP.
Wealth by level for a single character also makes no mention of level 20 items, whereas they exist, cost more than "WBL" for a level 20 character(This chart is clearly just meant for a character who suddenly joins at level X).
Elixirs of healing are a party consumable, and should likely be accounted for in party treasure gain in some form through taking money out of the pocket of party currency and breaking down the value of the lower level consumables gained at level 6/7.
The first player I walked through character creation made an Alchemist (a goblin alchemist actually) and I definitely have some concerns, too. I love the flavor of the class, but especially at low levels it seems like it has some resource issues.
Here's the big one: Every other class - EVERY other class - has a way to do their "thing" all day long. Spellcasters get at-will cantrips, barbarians can rage all day, paladins never run out of retributive strikes, rangers never run out of hunt targets.
Alchemists, especially at first level, run out of bombs very quickly. At best, you have five bombs and then you are plinking with a crossbow instead of being an alchemist.
The second issue with alchemists is that you have to either cast from gp or from hp. If you want to carry around spare bombs, it's very expensive at first level. You are looking at throwing away 10% of your starting wealth every time you attack, and that's if you craft your bombs instead of buying them. Even gunslingers didn't have it that bad.
Alternatively, you use Resonance Points - which is basically casting from hp. Because once you run out of bombs, you ALSO can no longer be healed by potions or wands, meaning the cleric has to work extra hard to heal you, because your class feature requires you to expend your ability to heal yourself.
Strongly feel like Alchemists need an at-will ability of some kind that lets them keep being an alchemist all day long at low levels. Also strongly feel that Quick Alchemy costing Resonance points instead of having a dedicated pool of uses is a bad idea because it punishes the cleric player.
Each day after that, you "spend" 6 SP worth as an expert crafter. So three days for an expert crafter level 4 alchemist to make a batch of eight level 1 items. That seems reasonable.
For a trained, no alchemist, level 4 PC making the same number of acid flasks in two batches, it costs a total of 12 SP and six days. The discrepancy seems small now, but it increases as you level.
A level 7 making eight level four items (assuming GP is supposed to be SP) will cost 48 SP/3 Days for an expert efficient Alchemist (one batch), or 48 SP/7 days for a trained non-alchemist (two batches).
If the purpose of Efficient Alchemy is to make batches of lower level stuff during downtime, then I really think alchemical items should he listed in silver.
GP Numbers:
Expert Efficient Alchemist
Level 4 making Eight Level 1s: 12 GP/21 Days
Level 7 making Eight Level 4s: 48 GP/25 Days
Trained Non-alchemist:
Level 4 making eight Level 1s in two batches: 12 GP/50 days
Level 7 making eight level 4s in two batches: 48 GP/62 days.
Alchemical items are completely broken, value wise, atm.
As an example: 10x minor elite is of life is 30gp for 10x 1d6
A wand of heal (1) is 27gp for up to 10x (1d8+4) as an aoe
Possible solutions (imo) :
A) completely remove RP cost.
Pros: They are non magical solutions, they are vastly inferior to magical items of approximate cost, doesn't make sense to have it, etc
Cons: won't really help the alchemist class, he'll still have to spend all of his wbl on a like 3 bombs
B) reduce cost to 1/10th
Pros: makes sense power wise (a wand of heal on a party of 4,healing just 2 each time heals for 6.3/gp while elixir would heal less but more efficient 11.5hp/gp but only 3.5/rp-2xaction
Side benefit : makes poisons a tiny bit more accessible to rogue
Cons: alchemist still can't use his own items that he crafts in his downtime (not enough RP)
C)
Actual solution (imo) :
(B) + everything alchemist makes, regardless of method, is infused for himself.
Pros: now he has 2 paths: use his wbl and downtime to prepare, still costly but gives him sustain. Gives him reasons to pick efficient Alchemy and sia. Makes alchemical items balanced to their magical counterparts (magical is still far better, alchemical are cheaper)
Alchemical items are completely broken, value wise, atm.
As an example: 10x minor elite is of life is 30gp for 10x 1d6
A wand of heal (1) is 27gp for up to 10x (1d8+4) as an aoe
Possible solutions (imo) :
A) completely remove RP cost.
Pros: They are non magical solutions, they are vastly inferior to magical items of approximate cost, doesn't make sense to have it, etc
Cons: won't really help the alchemist class, he'll still have to spend all of his wbl on a like 3 bombs
B) reduce cost to 1/10th
Pros: makes sense power wise (a wand of heal on a party of 4,healing just 2 each time heals for 6.3/gp while elixir would heal less but more efficient 11.5hp/gp but only 3.5/rp-2xaction
Side benefit : makes poisons a tiny bit more accessible to rogue
Cons: alchemist still can't use his own items that he crafts in his downtime (not enough RP)
C)
Actual solution (imo) :
(B) + everything alchemist makes, regardless of method, is infused for himself.
Pros: now he has 2 paths: use his wbl and downtime to prepare, still costly but gives him sustain. Gives him reasons to pick efficient Alchemy and sia. Makes alchemical items balanced to their magical counterparts (magical is still far better, alchemical are cheaper)
Alternately, make it a feat at level 6/8/10 to count all academical items as infused for the alchemist.
Alchemical items are completely broken, value wise, atm.
As an example: 10x minor elite is of life is 30gp for 10x 1d6
A wand of heal (1) is 27gp for up to 10x (1d8+4) as an aoe
Possible solutions (imo) :
A) completely remove RP cost.
Pros: They are non magical solutions, they are vastly inferior to magical items of approximate cost, doesn't make sense to have it, etc
Cons: won't really help the alchemist class, he'll still have to spend all of his wbl on a like 3 bombs
B) reduce cost to 1/10th
Pros: makes sense power wise (a wand of heal on a party of 4,healing just 2 each time heals for 6.3/gp while elixir would heal less but more efficient 11.5hp/gp but only 3.5/rp-2xaction
Side benefit : makes poisons a tiny bit more accessible to rogue
Cons: alchemist still can't use his own items that he crafts in his downtime (not enough RP)
C)
Actual solution (imo) :
(B) + everything alchemist makes, regardless of method, is infused for himself.
Pros: now he has 2 paths: use his wbl and downtime to prepare, still costly but gives him sustain. Gives him reasons to pick efficient Alchemy and sia. Makes alchemical items balanced to their magical counterparts (magical is still far better, alchemical are cheaper)
Alternately, make it a feat at level 6/8/10 to count all academical items as infused for the alchemist.
you understand the irony of it since that's literally tons better than the capstone at level 20... (it counts bombs and mutagens as infused only, not even elixirs)
Yeah, it's sad that it would be the case. The Wizard at level 4 gets the ability to be a almost-spontaneous caster or the bend reality to his whims at 20. The alchemist *might* be able to make his regularly crafted bombs, which he spends money on, not worthless--oh, and he has to give up the philosopher's stone to do so.
I finally took a look at the cleric and I was kind of miffed that the cleric gets three resources to work with beyond RP in addition to cantrips. She is in every category better than the Alchemist.
Alternate suggestion:
Advanced Alchemy: The Alchemist can prepare level + Int common items up to his level during his daily preparations (no batches/half-batches). These items count as infused and do not consume RP from the alchemist.
Replaced Studied Resonance with Studied Aim.
Studied Aim: The Alchemist applies his Int modifier to the damage of any thrown item (including bombs, but not their splash damage--save that for a feat).
Make Quick Alchemy use a points form a pool of Spell Points instead of from his resonance.
When the Alchemist unlocks mutagens, they may be created using his Advanced Alchemy feature.
Replace Expanded Resonance with Expanded Alchemy:
Expanded Alchemy: The Alchemist treats all alchemical items as if are infused for the purposes of feat interaction and bomb damage progression. The Alchemist still must spend RP when using items in this way.
This way the Alchemist reasonably has some staying power with other classes--given how bombs are compared to cantrips, special attacks, etc. from other classes without their additives, this should keep the alchemist relevant without breaking balance since they still have to pay for their items--making their downtime crafting actually meaningful for bombs.
One thing I find interesting in other classes is that when they get a spell pool or ki pool, their feats increase their pool size. The Alchemist gets a lot of options on how to spend their RP without also getting a increasing pool size.
While playtesting an elven alchemist, I ended up using my bow most of the fights, switching to alchemy only when I needed something which is not direct dps (healing elixirs, tanglefoot bags for crowd control etc). Even this way, the character ended up at 0 RP pretty fast.
Playing a pure bomber does not seem to be viable just now: the class as it is seems to require actual weapon use for staple attacks. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that IMO (I generally like the idea of using weapons instead of castingclass-specifics magics and gimmicks for every sneeze), this combined tactics approach might not scale well for higher levels. Still to see it in further playtesting.
I did a bit of number crunching, and even if you had infinite bombs (empowered by your class features) you're still way behind in how much damage you can put out. The bombs have lower base damage, never apply a stat to their direct-hit damage and the alchemist has no particularly good way to keep pace on accuracy (as far as I can see, they don't have a way to apply an item bonus to their attack rolls with bombs until 15th level, UNLESS you chain-chug quicksilver mutagens all day long at the cost of all your gold).
I'm baffled as to how Paizo expected this class to function.
It does seem that way..
use a weapon 90% of the time.
if you're facing something scary. start the fight with an Empowered bomb Acid Flask to stack on some very nice Persistent Damage.
I'm actually thinking about a dagger/dart persistent damage/poison focused alchemist. I really. really wish that Alchemists had gotten light shield proficiency of some sort. That would really help with the problem of weapon use... basically its default to darts, knives, crossbow for ranged combat. though crossbows retain their somewhat painful reload times. Once again I doubt anyone will be using a Heavy Crossbow. Unless I missed some detail of it.
Like.. seriously.. why does bows get Deadly trait but xbow get..no trait at all?
I'm still looking for the Draw Weapon action currently..
but darts have - reload, which is 0, like a bow, so I wonder if that means they're drawn as a free action like an arrrow
I hope so.. that was always a weird problem in the first edition
I did a bit of number crunching, and even if you had infinite bombs (empowered by your class features) you're still way behind in how much damage you can put out. The bombs have lower base damage, never apply a stat to their direct-hit damage
I do agree their damage is low. But of note.
Splash Trait, and the Empowered Bombs class ability both specify that with splash weapons the main target also takes splash damage.
So you do apply stat to the direct hit at least.
So an alchemist fire for instance..
the main target takes.
1d8 fire. 1 persistent fire damage, and 1 splash damage. Those in splash take just the 1.
so level 4, you can pick up the feat to switch out that 1 damage for int instead.
at lv..10? you can get a feat that lets you instead add your INT to splash.
Also because one says "instead of normal amount" and the other says "splash damage is increased to 2 [lus int" there is an argument about the splash being 2 and that is what is replaced by INT and then you add INT. Though I doubt this is their intention.. but the way they wrote things, and the fact that the lv 10 expanded splash requires the lv 4 concentrated splash.. means they're suppose to work together in some way. Plus. the extra requirement in the lv 10 one to be something you created... while the first one is any. Meaning the lv 10 one requires tailored to you items.. which would explain why it would have 2xint
"you can choose for the bomb’s splash damage to deal extra damage equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 0) instead of the normal amount."
"When you throw an alchemical bomb with the splash trait that
you have created, the splash damage is increased to 2 plus your
Intelligence modifier, and it damages every creature within
10 feet of the target."
=====
Well even if it doesn't double INT, using the above feats, combined with empowered bomb, and Acid flash, can really help with some persistent damage.. allowing you to really just use the 1 bomb on a target then switch to weapons.
you still run out hella fast... but
at lv 4 that acid flask does
2d4 presistent + INT splash. Then presistent... until they remove it with the flat check.
at lv 11 that's 4d4 persistent + 8+INT splash.
relatively fun. not amazing though. but its a nice status effect basically.
plus if you get the right set ups, you could hit them with a acid and an alchemist fire.
this taking all 3 actions in one round. 2 RP points I think?
So high cost, damn high cost.. but pretty painful constent effect that is quite difficult to remove.
----------
All that said.. Persistent applies at the end of ones turn...
so if i hit someone with an acid flask.. does that mean they don't take the persistent until the end of their next turn. or do they take it immediately and then again on their turn.. i wonder.
This looks like the right place. So just read up on Alchemist, Empower Bomb, and the Persistent condition. I thought it was rather straight forward at first read and then it turned into a bit of an interesting mess that i could use some help figuring out.
So the Persistent condition says, ‘You roll the damage dice anew each time you take the persistent damage.’ So it sounds like you get burned by an Alchemist fire, you take 1d8 every turn until you put it out. Cool.
Empower Bomb says, ‘You can empower only a 1st-level bomb, increasing its level and causing it to deal more damage. This also increases any persistent damage dealt by the bomb;’ and the example they gave was with the Alchemist Fire becoming 2d8 2 Persistent.
Now to the messy parts:
My interpretation is when the 2 Persistent ticks off it’s gonna re-roll the Damage Dice twice. In this instance, 4d8(2d8 * 2) every turn until death or it’s put out.
Also my interpretation is a 7th level an Alchemist Fire becomes 3d8 3 Persistent.
This seems. . . Interesting if it’s the case, but the wording seems to point in that direction unless i’m missing something.
I am fairly sure you are misreading Alchemist Fire. So it does 1d8 Fire damage, and 1 Persistent Fire Damage until they manage to put it out, there is also 1 Splash Fire damage that everyone but your target in the area takes.
So 7th level it is 3d8 Fire Damage to the target you hit, and only on a hit, 3 Persistent Fire Damage to your target upon a hit, and everyone but your target takes 1 Splash Fire Damage.
Now if you missed the target would take neither the normal Fire Damage nor the Persistent Fire damage, but if it is a normal miss and not a critical miss everyone in the area including your target takes the 1 Splash Fire damage.
Zwordsman I uh I am not even sure where you are getting those numbers, especially that +8 to damage. But also I think you might be confused about Splash damage. Your target does not take Splash damage, normally, unless you miss them.
I wasn’t asking about splash damage. I was asking about how the Empower Bomb Alchemist Class Feature works, and am using Alchemist Fire as the example.
So with the 7th level version doing 3d8 on a successful hit, i’m looking to see how much damage the ‘3 Persistent Fire damage’ will end up doing when it activates.
I wasn’t asking about splash damage. I was asking about how the Empower Bomb Alchemist Class Feature works, and am using Alchemist Fire as the example.
So with the 7th level version doing 3d8 on a successful hit, i’m looking to see how much damage the ‘3 Persistent Fire damage’ will end up doing when it activates.
I wasn’t asking about splash damage. I was asking about how the Empower Bomb Alchemist Class Feature works, and am using Alchemist Fire as the example.
So with the 7th level version doing 3d8 on a successful hit, i’m looking to see how much damage the ‘3 Persistent Fire damage’ will end up doing when it activates.
.
The 3 persistent will do... 3 damage.
It's really not that impressive to do 3/round
And sadly it applies only to the main target--on a hit.
OK, made (and played) a Goblin Alchemist yesterday. Call me ... underwhelmed.
First things first, Quick Alchemy (THE feat that makes alchemists "alchemists") cannot be used RAW. The requirements for Quick Alchemy are the formula, alchemists toolkit, and one free hand. But the alchemists toolkit requires two hands. So unless the alchemist has a mutagen growing him a third arm, you cannot use Quick Alchemy.
Alchemists require strength. If I want to get the most bang for my buck in resonance costs, I have to pre-make my items everyday. Every resonance I spend gets me two L bulk items (half my downtime crafting). At 4th level I can make four L bulk items, which is better. And if I'm carrying around alchemist's toolkit (ignoring the hand requirements) to make use of Quick Alchemy, that's two bulk. With the leather armor (1 bulk) plus the L items, I was starting operate near the 6 max I was alloted for Bulk (12 STR). So in a sense, I operate like a wizard, with pre-learned (pre-made in my case) magic - except my stuff takes up bulk AND resonance.
So I have to buff my strength to add to Bulk allowance. Except I REALLY need Dexterity which competes with Strength (Con is always nice, but Strength really is more important for an Alchemist)
The Item crafting rules say, take 4 days, -1 day for each character level above item level, spent half at the start(15SPish) and half at the end(15SP), but you can spend additional days crafting and using the crafting skill to reduce the cost for each day work, discount based on level/proficiency. Consumables like elixirs can be made in batches of 4 at a time (there's a reference that this isn't always a case in an alchemist ability, but other references to batches don't seem to have anything about variable batch size)
I missed the initial time cost.
Everything here makes me suspect that all alchemical itmes should be listed in silver, not gold.
Based on costs, compared to other consumables? No, they're absolutely priced correctly, it's just that crafting isn't the huge discount it was in PF 1, it allows you to guarantee that you'll be able to get what you want, but making money off of it in any form has been balanced to fit alongside your friends that'll be performing at bars and eventually theaters, or the bouncer who works his way up to a convoy manager.
I haven't seen one PC that made their cash through Crafting. Saving some cash yes okay, I'll admit to that and doing it myself.
But a lot of people are in for a rude awakening when our Class Feature takes money to use at no upside other than "OH you can have at anytime".
Yeah okay. Tell me, who do I pay in the middle of a dungeon for the materials or do I have to pay for those in advance too?
Actually don't you need Strength for the attack roll with the Bombs anyway? Because they are thrown weapons. Being Splash weapons specifically calls out not adding the Strength modifier to the damage, but says nothing about not using it for the attack roll.
I missed the whole needing the alchemist toolkit for Quick Alchemy, and that the toolkit requires two hands, and thus doesn't work. I know there were a bunch of other issues that made the Alchemist unplayable. Like not being able to craft Mutagens with Quick or Advanced Alchemy, and possibly at all depending on whether the class feature that gives you the Alchemical Crafting feat actually restricts what you can craft with the feat to Common.
Actually don't you need Strength for the attack roll with the Bombs anyway? Because they are thrown weapons. Being Splash weapons specifically calls out not adding the Strength modifier to the damage, but says nothing about not using it for the attack roll.
I missed the whole needing the alchemist toolkit for Quick Alchemy, and that the toolkit requires two hands, and thus doesn't work. I know there were a bunch of other issues that made the Alchemist unplayable. Like not being able to craft Mutagens with Quick or Advanced Alchemy, and possibly at all depending on whether the class feature that gives you the Alchemical Crafting feat actually restricts what you can craft with the feat to Common.
ranged attack rolls are still keyed off your dex.
thrown weapons (expet splash) just get bonus damage from str
"When making an attack, determine the result of your
attack roll by rolling a d20 and adding your attack
modifier with the weapon or unarmed attack you’re using.
Your melee attack modifier is the sum of your proficiency
modifier with a weapon plus your Strength modifier (or
optionally, your Dexterity modifier for weapons with
the finesse trait). Your ranged attack modifier is the sum
of your proficiency modifier with a weapon plus your
Dexterity modifier. Bonuses and penalties apply to these
rolls just like with other types of checks. Magic weapons
and weapons of expert quality or better add an item
bonus to your attack rolls."
"Ranged weapons usually use only the weapon’s damage
die, though weapons with the propulsive trait sometimes
add half your Strength modifier, and thrown weapons add
your full Strength modifier."
Mach5RR wrote:
OK, made (and played) a Goblin Alchemist yesterday. Call me ... underwhelmed.
First things first, Quick Alchemy (THE feat that makes alchemists "alchemists") cannot be used RAW. The requirements for Quick Alchemy are the formula, alchemists toolkit, and one free hand. But the alchemists toolkit requires two hands. So unless the alchemist has a mutagen growing him a third arm, you cannot use Quick Alchemy.
Alchemists require strength. If I want to get the most bang for my buck in resonance costs, I have to pre-make my items everyday. Every resonance I spend gets me two L bulk items (half my downtime crafting). At 4th level I can make four L bulk items, which is better. And if I'm carrying around alchemist's toolkit (ignoring the hand requirements) to make use of Quick Alchemy, that's two bulk. With the leather armor (1 bulk) plus the L items, I was starting operate near the 6 max I was alloted for Bulk (12 STR). So in a sense, I operate like a wizard, with pre-learned (pre-made in my case) magic - except my stuff takes up bulk AND resonance.
So I have to buff my strength to add to Bulk allowance. Except I REALLY need Dexterity which competes with Strength (Con is always nice, but Strength really is more important for an Alchemist)
don't worry!
when you get higher level (and thus need more bulk because you make more items) you can buy a bag of holding and for JUST 1 EXTRA RP PER ITEM you can draw them from there!
neat huh?!
P.S:
even at 20 level you can still only make 2 items/RP, let alone 4. The class feat you're talking about specifically says it doesn't work with advanced alchemy, only with mundane crafting.
Quote:
EFFICIENT ALCHEMY FEAT 4
Because of the great amount of time you’ve spent studying and
experimenting, you know how to scale up your formulas to larger batches without
giving them any additional attention. When spending downtime to Craft alchemical
items, you can produce twice the number of alchemical items in a single batch without
needing to spend additional preparatory time. For instance, if you are crafting elixirs of
life, you can craft up to four elixirs in a single batch using downtime, rather than two.
This does not reduce the amount of required alchemical reagents or other ingredients
needed to craft each item, nor does it increase your rate of
progress for days past the base downtime spent. This also does
not change the number of items you can create in a batch with
advanced alchemy.
Wow okay that is weird. Super weird. I don't remember how thrown weapons worked in PF1e, and in 5e they use Strength unless they are Finesse. It seems weird they would use Dex for attack and Str for damage.
Oh well you were going to want Int and Dex anyway for RP and AC, and you were going to want STr for Bulk and in case you ever craft Bestial Mutagens in your downtime.
Wow okay that is weird. Super weird. I don't remember how thrown weapons worked in PF1e, and in 5e they use Strength unless they are Finesse. It seems weird they would use Dex for attack and Str for damage.
Oh well you were going to want Int and Dex anyway for RP and AC, and you were going to want STr for Bulk and in case you ever craft Bestial Mutagens in your downtime.
nah, that's how they worked in pf1 already.
it's not that weird either, think of them like everything is like old composite bows
when you get higher level (and thus need more bulk because you make more items) you can buy a bag of holding and for JUST 1 EXTRA RP PER ITEM you can draw them from there!
neat huh?!
Sadly, you are wrong. You have to spend JUST 2 EXTRA RP PER ITEM. One to put it into the bag, and 1 to pull it out. And since you have to build out your bombs everyday, you can't even save on RP by prestaging them a day earlier.
when you get higher level (and thus need more bulk because you make more items) you can buy a bag of holding and for JUST 1 EXTRA RP PER ITEM you can draw them from there!
neat huh?!
Sadly, you are wrong. You have to spend JUST 2 EXTRA RP PER ITEM. One to put it into the bag, and 1 to pull it out. And since you have to build out your bombs everyday, you can't even save on RP by prestaging them a day earlier.
i now see the light!
the reason we can make an alchemical familiar is to make a tiny horsie homunculus dragging an even tinier cart full of bottles!
While playtesting an elven alchemist, I ended up using my bow most of the fights, switching to alchemy only when I needed something which is not direct dps (healing elixirs, tanglefoot bags for crowd control etc). Even this way, the character ended up at 0 RP pretty fast.
I'm thinking of going multiclass wizard as soon as possible and pretending to be a caster with lots of resonance instead of an alchemist.
Attack cantrips at 2nd, force bolts [and int spell points] at 4th, get a 1st and 2nd level slot at 6th...
While playtesting an elven alchemist, I ended up using my bow most of the fights, switching to alchemy only when I needed something which is not direct dps (healing elixirs, tanglefoot bags for crowd control etc). Even this way, the character ended up at 0 RP pretty fast.
I'm thinking of going multiclass wizard as soon as possible and pretending to be a caster with lots of resonance instead of an alchemist.
Attack cantrips at 2nd, force bolts [and int spell points] at 4th, get a 1st and 2nd level slot at 6th...
That's not bad. You get the batman toolbelt of Quick Alchemy and still get 8th level spellcasting.
While playtesting an elven alchemist, I ended up using my bow most of the fights, switching to alchemy only when I needed something which is not direct dps (healing elixirs, tanglefoot bags for crowd control etc). Even this way, the character ended up at 0 RP pretty fast.
But ... how does that work? I get the appeal of wanting to flip between the two, only doing quick alchemy as needed. But the Alchemists Toolkit necessary to do QA is a two-handed item, described as those "beakers and chemicals ... used to set up a mobile alchemical laboratory". In other words, you're dropping one to use the other when you're flipping back and forth between the bow. That's a lot of wasted actions when picking up and readying you're weapon vs toolkit.
While playtesting an elven alchemist, I ended up using my bow most of the fights, switching to alchemy only when I needed something which is not direct dps (healing elixirs, tanglefoot bags for crowd control etc). Even this way, the character ended up at 0 RP pretty fast.
But ... how does that work? I get the appeal of wanting to flip between the two, only doing quick alchemy as needed. But the Alchemists Toolkit necessary to do QA is a two-handed item, described as those "beakers and chemicals ... used to set up a mobile alchemical laboratory". In other words, you're dropping one to use the other when you're flipping back and forth between the bow. That's a lot of wasted actions when picking up and readying you're weapon vs toolkit.
It's either that, or use up all your alchemical items in the first few rounds, then just use bow the rest of the day. I'd rather sprinkle them out.
(I'd actually rather be able to use them all day without having to resort to a bow, but that's a different matter).
This class was very confusing to understand for me. Having to flip between the class/skills/feats/treasure sections multiple times to try and comprehend just the first class feature "advanced alchemy" was offputting. Its the first game mechanic a new player of an alchemist will see, and it is confusing. Most of the other classes are fairly easy to understand.
I have come to the conclusion that you don't pay any money at all to craft stuff using 'advanced alchemy'. So I am even more confused as people in this thread posting that you have to pay.
The stuff you craft for your 'daily preparation' says to ignore the requirements of reagents. And since reagents/materials are the stuff that costs money (per the crafting skill) therefore its free, but becomes inert after 24 hours.
