Stop the negativity!!!


Prerelease Discussion

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STOP THE POSITIVITY!!!

Folks, this board is full of positive comments AND YOU HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN THE PLAYTEST YET!

I have no way of knowing the folks at Paizo have been working their tails off to make something great, and will be working even harder in the next year to make the best possible product they can. And then they come on this board and get unconditionally praised by people WHO ARE SPECULATING ABOUT HOW GREAT IT ALL IS.

Withhold judgement until you've at least seen the thing! And keep it constructive!

Play on.

Shadow Lodge

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I tell you what, I enjoy this place a LOT better when it is positive and not negative. I imagine the moderators do too.

Silver Crusade

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Bloodrealm wrote:

STOP THE POSITIVITY!!!

Folks, this board is full of positive comments AND YOU HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN THE PLAYTEST YET!

I have no way of knowing the folks at Paizo have been working their tails off to make something great, and will be working even harder in the next year to make the best possible product they can. And then they come on this board and get unconditionally praised by people WHO ARE SPECULATING ABOUT HOW GREAT IT ALL IS.

Withhold judgement until you've at least seen the thing! And keep it constructive!

Play on.

No.


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Bloodrealm wrote:

STOP THE POSITIVITY!!!

Folks, this board is full of positive comments AND YOU HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN THE PLAYTEST YET!

I have no way of knowing the folks at Paizo have been working their tails off to make something great, and will be working even harder in the next year to make the best possible product they can. And then they come on this board and get unconditionally praised by people WHO ARE SPECULATING ABOUT HOW GREAT IT ALL IS.

Withhold judgement until you've at least seen the thing! And keep it constructive!

Play on.

maybe I will, maybe I wont


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we have to exercise our critiquing skills for when the game drops. You don't want us to be out of practice do you?


This is the internet. Of course it's mostly people whining over the smallest things.

Just be glad you arent in d&d forums. The edition wars...i still have nightmares about it...


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A lot of the negative vibes seem to come from a fairly small group of posters who post doom and gloom reactions on pretty much every blog post. Lots of negativity based on either personal dislike or wild speculations expressed as certainties, but done on very little information.
Now here's the kicker ... some of these posters have been rather vocal that the reason they're reacting so negatively is because they care very much about the game and that the changes and inclusions of certain aspects into the core rules will result in them not having fun.
I wonder if they then realize what their near constant negativity does to the fun other posters have in following the blog posts and the reveal of how PF2 is structured?


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Praised be our Lord in Iron, may he never rust away.


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1of1 wrote:
Praised be our Lord in Iron, may he never rust away.

I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not sure how that relates to the topic at hand.


The Sideromancer wrote:
1of1 wrote:
Praised be our Lord in Iron, may he never rust away.
I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not sure how that relates to the topic at hand.

It's a very roundabout way of saying that I agree with both sides, and think that they should continue their discussion.


anyway ID like to point out that wotc has no forums anymore so dnd has no official forums

Shadow Lodge

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I like the ideas being expressed in the previews, and I trust the development team to both be careful with their plans and to listen to people who've decided to sleep on their reactions instead of immediately channeling Groteus.

Though I am iffy on a couple of decisions, it's partially because I haven't seen the rules on an aspect and how it fits into everything, and partially because I'm one of the ones who prefers kobolds to goblins. I'm willing to wait and see, and try out the playtest when the PDFs appear.
So basically, instead of being positive or negative, I'll just channel Neutrality at the moment. I still hope to be excited by fun stuff later on.


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Bloodrealm wrote:
I have no way of knowing the folks at Paizo have been working their tails off to make something great, and will be working even harder in the next year to make the best possible product they can.

I think you have good reason to think this. It would be pretty odd if they were planning on making a product worse than the best they could do.

Especially if you like PF1 - then you have even better grounds for thinking Paizo people will do a good job going forward.


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GentleGiant wrote:
I wonder if they then realize what their near constant negativity does to the fun other posters have in following the blog posts and the reveal of how PF2 is structured?

I find YOUR negativity about MY negativity affects my fun... I don't think you realize how your near constant and baseless positivity affects my mood. :P

Why are "wild speculations" fine only if they are from positive people?


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graystone wrote:

I find YOUR negativity about MY negativity affects my fun... I don't think you realize how your near constant and baseless positivity affects my mood. :P

Why are "wild speculations" fine only if they are from positive people?

I think speculation from both skeptics and enthusiasts is fine, personally.

However, let’s not pretend that this is a symmetric situation. Paizo make this forum available to discuss their products and to give their community a place to network, make friends and to share experiences. The goal is to promote a fun, welcoming environment and its pretty obvious that negativity is less likely to foster that than positivity. I’m sure there are plenty of places online where those who wish to talk down Paizo and/or PF2 would be far more de rigueur.

As I said - I think there’s a place for doubting Thomases and don’t think negativity is always out of place here.

However, I don’t think the “substitution” argument really works.


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Steve Geddes wrote:
graystone wrote:

I find YOUR negativity about MY negativity affects my fun... I don't think you realize how your near constant and baseless positivity affects my mood. :P

Why are "wild speculations" fine only if they are from positive people?

I think speculation from both skeptics and enthusiasts is fine, personally.

However, let’s not pretend that this is a symmetric situation. Paizo make this forum available to discuss their products and to give their community a place to network, make friends and to share experiences. The goal is to promote a fun, welcoming environment and its pretty obvious that negativity is less likely to foster that than positivity. I’m sure there are plenty of places online where those who wish to talk down Paizo and/or PF2 would be far more de rigueur.

As I said - I think there’s a place for doubting Thomases and don’t think negativity is always out of place here.

However, I don’t think the “substitution” argument really works.

Think of it as a bit of satire: That people are using negativity to complain about negativity and the use of double standards on what is 'acceptable' and what is not.

So I wasn't really going for a “substitution” argument, but more a commentary on something that feels hypocritical.

Shadow Lodge

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Oh, like tolerating intolerance?


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The question as to whether being negative about negativity is itself negative is similar to the Grelling-Nelson paradox.

Or I could just be trite and say that: two wrongs doth not a right make.


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"doth" is singular so of course two wrongs can't do that.


Touché


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Boomerang Nebula wrote:

Or I could just be trite and say that: two wrongs doth not a right make.

*shrug* I don't mind being wrong if it illustrates that the other side is wrong too.


graystone wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:

Or I could just be trite and say that: two wrongs doth not a right make.

*shrug* I don't mind being wrong if it illustrates that the other side is wrong too.

I was being facetious. Please don't take my comment seriously.


I thought everybody knew that to make a right, you make 3 left turns


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Steelfiredragon wrote:
I thought everybody knew that to make a right, you make 3 left turns

That's JUST what euclidean geometry WANTS you to think. ;)

The Exchange

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graystone wrote:
Why are "wild speculations" fine only if they are from positive people?

Personally I don't mind if people are sceptical, and of course those have every right to speak their mind too. My problem with too much negativity is that in the end, even valid criticism gets shrugged away as "Oh just another hate comment".

I am aware that you can make the same argument that people being too positive might damage the final product in a similar way. If you defend everything Paizo does by being totally uncritical all the time, you are equally damaging to the product in the end.
But as of right now, we know way to little to make more than speculations (wild or otherwise), so it comes basically down to this: If we were enjoying the last ten years with PF 1, why should we be so mistrusting towards the Paizo designers as to interpret any news in the worst possible way? And if, on the other hand, we didn't enjoy the things Paizo offered to us in the last ten years, why the hell are we even still being here?

By the way, I think it's quite easy to differentiate between constructive scepticism and destructive negativity and it's equally easy to behave in a constructive way. So if you (general you) behave destructive all the time, at least be honest and don't pretend that you want to help the designers to improve the product.

Or better yet, just shut up and go somewhere else.


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WormysQueue wrote:
graystone wrote:
Why are "wild speculations" fine only if they are from positive people?
Personally I don't mind if people are sceptical, and of course those have every right to speak their mind too. My problem with too much negativity is that in the end, even valid criticism gets shrugged away as "Oh just another hate comment".

I feel like this is the most important quote of the thread because most of the negativity I've seen comes from this mentality of attacking people for criticizing the system or comparing it to what they've already experienced.

It's really hard to be positive when your opinion gets shut down by a bunch of mob sycophants who intend to spam the forums with personal insults instead of actually talking about the stuff that's being previewed. "We haven't seen enough yet" might be true in some cases, but in others we've been given a pretty clear view on the chassis of the game engine and can start to look at how the game plays, and that sentiment mostly comes down to someone trying to bully you out of sharing any opinion that doesn't flow with the narrative that PF2 is going to be perfect right from the play test.

If Paizo didn't want our opinions, they wouldn't literally open a forum for those opinions.


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Good point, although it’s probably not helpful to refer to people as “a bunch of mob sycophants” in the same post you’re claiming they are resorting to personal insults and are spamming the forum, rather than just expressing a contrary view.


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Steve is likely correct, although the old maxim "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..." may very well apply.


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I’m pretty sure they opened these forums as a place to consolidate everything. Not because our opinions really matter at this point since we are essentially trying to see the world through a keyhole.

We don’t have enough information at this point to come to an informed opinion on most of these topics. Some things we are starting to get a better picture of, but a lot of people are throwing out ultimatums of, “keep this old thing or I walk,” or looking at a partial system concept and claiming that, “this is just them copying X other game I hate, thus this version will also suck,” before seeing how things interact.

I’ve spent more money than I want to think about on PF1 and associated products. I’m sure others of you are in a similar boat. We all want to see the Paizo make the best products possible or we wouldn’t have invested so much in their products.

At this point they are copy fitting the new rules based on what we’ve heard in interviews. Everything is mostly solidified for the play test. Let’s calm down a bit as we will have no impact on the pdf we’re getting in August at this point. Theory rafting and predicting is fine, but just remember that, “It’s just a game. Why you have to be mad?”


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I've often thought that "calling it like I see it" or "I'm just being honest/blunt" is a Real Life version of "I'm just doing what my character would do."

In both cases one could avoid it with a bit of thought and consideration of their audience.

As for the negativity on the boards, it is bound to happen when there are limited bits of information which leads to speculation which leads to people getting upset about imaginary things that haven't been confirmed.

It isn't going to get better before the playtest document comes out because the information isn't going to be more complete and people are already worked up. Add to the problem that many if not most people believe they are "right" -- for a given value of right -- and you have a situation ripe for an explosion of anger and negativity, and responses from those that want less grar or less yelling or less whatever or simply like what was proposed.

I'd suggest people do what I am doing and try to refrain from posting and arguing overly much, but I doubt that will happen.


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WormysQueue wrote:
But as of right now, we know way to little to make more than speculations (wild or otherwise), so it comes basically down to this: If we were enjoying the last ten years with PF 1, why should we be so mistrusting towards the Paizo designers as to interpret any news in the worst possible way? And if, on the other hand, we didn't enjoy the things Paizo offered to us in the last ten years, why the hell are we even still being here?

You're missing all those people in the middle. Those that enjoyed the game overall but didn't always agree with the direction things took or some of the rulings made. For myself, I've been increasingly displeased with rulings and FAQ's so it'd be strange if I DIDN'T take new news with a grain of salt as their views in the recent past haven't aligned with what I wanted from the game.

The Exchange

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Desna's Avatar wrote:
Steve is likely correct, although the old maxim "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..." may very well apply.

Yeah but on the other hand, it may also be possible that the opinion that got attacked was mostly wrong.

Here's the thing: I've sometimes be critical of certain things done by Paizo myself and as I know that Paizo has more than once expressed interest in our opinion, I will share this opinion freely. Sometimes I've been agreed with, sometimes I've been corrected (by Paizo officials or other board members), and yes sometimes my opinion has caused a less than friendly reception by other board members.

When this happens, I have three possibilities:

1. I try to find common ground with the other person (maybe there
s a misunderstanding due to me not being a native speaker, or simply because something came across in a way I didn't intend to).

2. I defend my position as politely as I can, and when I see that it can't be helped and the other one just don't want to listen, I leave it be: At least I've made my point for anyone to see and that's all I wanted to do anyways.

3. I go in full-attack mode myself, most likely causing the actual discussion at hand to stop, causing others to chime in and add fuel to the fire and eventually forcing the moderation forces to close the thread.

In short: even when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's still better not to transform into a duck myself

P.S. I'm no saint myself. But choosing option 3 has, in my experience, never brought any lasting benefit for anyone, so I work on getting better with that.

The Exchange

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graystone wrote:
You're missing all those people in the middle. Those that enjoyed the game overall but didn't always agree with the direction things took or some of the rulings made. For myself, I've been increasingly displeased with rulings and FAQ's so it'd be strange if I DIDN'T take new news with a grain of salt as their views in the recent past haven't aligned with what I wanted from the game.

Oh I think those are the people that I covered in the paragraph before, the sceptical ones. Again, grain of salt is totally ok, interpreting anything in the worst way possible is not


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WormysQueue wrote:
interpreting anything in the worst way possible is not

This is ALL a matter of perspective. So far the majority of news hasn't been to my liking but it's NOT to be contrary: I have reasons for my dislikes and I'm able to state my reasons. Some could see my being negative in multiple threads as "interpreting anything in the worst way possible". From my perspective, I see issues and post them in hope to bring them to light and that they might be fixed/shifted in a way that makes the game better for myself.

IMO, the more worrisome posters are the '100% positive no matter the contents of the info' that actively try to drown out anything even slightly negative. I don't see negative posters saying 'don't be so positive!' [past a snarky post or two from me in reply to a 'don't be so negative' post] but that can't be said from posts on the positive side. If fact some posters JUST come in to threads to complain about people not unconditionally loving the new material but not actually adding anything to the thread. I don't mind if you disagree with my points but I DO mind if your disagreement is that I shouldn't dislike something.

Sovereign Court

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graystone wrote:
From my perspective, I see issues and post them in hope to bring them to light and that they might be fixed/shifted in a way that makes the game better for myself.

A negative message sticks in the mind much easier than positive messages. It’s possible to bring up concerns and issues without making it a negative message. It’s just harder to frame criticism constructively than it is to worry loudly.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
It’s possible to bring up concerns and issues without making it a negative message. It’s just harder to frame criticism constructively than it is to worry loudly.

No matter how well constructed, anything not brimming with unfettered praise is going to be seen by some as negative. While I'm not going out of my way to frame my dislike in the worst light, so too do I not go out of my way to couch it in the best of terms either. My criticisms just are as I feel them.

It would be one thing if constructive criticism was universally seen as such or there was a universal definition for it: Even if we agree on something being useful criticism, there are varying degrees of usefulness. for me I think it would be MUCH more productive if everyone would be more concerned with their own feelings on the new game and expressing what they liked and didn't instead of trying to police others feelings, likes and dislikes. If something is inappropriate, flag it.


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Sad sack engine room man in submarine under attack : "I think we're all gonna die !"

Master Chief : "Sailor, you've got to be more positive."

Sad sack : "Ok. I *KNOW* we're all going to die !"


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All negative and positive comments should be removed. Lets keep it neutral around here.


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Orville Redenbacher wrote:
All negative and positive comments should be removed. Lets keep it neutral around here.

Futurama says it best:

Neutral President: I have no strong feelings one way or the other.

Neutral President: All I know is my gut says maybe.

Neutral President: If I don't survive, tell my wife, "Hello."

The Exchange

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graystone wrote:
No matter how well constructed, anything not brimming with unfettered praise is going to be seen by some as negative.

I know and there's no denying that this should not happen. I also know from personal experience from another edition change how it felt when that happened to me.

Still if you've made your point in this constructive way, I don't think that it's the best thing to do to go in full combat mode if you get this reaction. At least it has never worked out for me. So I'd rather focus on communicating with other people that are a bit more open-minded about criticism. They might still not agree with me, but I think it is there where the interesting stuff happens (especially for Paizo).


DON'T stop the negativity.

It wouldn't be D&D without all the anxiety, pain, rage, paranoia, fear, hatred, despair, sarcasm, screaming, threats, innuendo, and self-harm over the tiniest change.

If you can't handle the negativity, my recommendation is to do your best to ignore it, and sit in the corner and quote from Monty Python's Holy Grail movie - that usually fixes everything.

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