I'm well aware that the most optimal build for a Magus involves prioritizing INT and DEX, and using Weapon Finesse with a Rapier (or perhaps Elven Curve Blade), but I'm interested in exploring other options, partly out of simple curiosity, and partly because I think a Bastard Sword or Scimitar-based build would be more thematically interesting.
So, assuming a Human with 20 build points, I was thinking of something like this:
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 08
The most obvious problem is a lower AC; even with a Chain Shirt, we're topping out at 16 AC at 1st level, with 9HP. Bad times. On the bright side, if we take that feat we were going to spend on Weapon Finesse and spend it on Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, we're now doing 1d10+3 (average damage ~9) in weapon damage versus 1d6+0 (average damage ~4), with no reduction in magic damage from Spell Combat/Spellstrike.
Has anyone tried this sort of build? If so, what were the results like? Did you have more fun as a DEX-based Magus?
A Strength-based Magus is still an effective character. There are lots of ways they can supplement AC with defensive magic, wearing heavier armor at high levels, etc.
Yes, ultimately it just means your AC and init will be a be lower. Which is detrimental but not the end of the world. It'd more of a problem at lower levels, but once you start getting other things besides dex to add to armor it matters less.
And a non-archetyped magus eventually gets heavy armor, to make up for the lack of dex.
It's less popular because it's less optimized, but it's viable.
Str maguses (magi?) are more than viable. And since you're not spending the feats getting dex for melee you can spend them on other more interesting things.
On the bright side, if we take that feat we were going to spend on Weapon Finesse and spend it on Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, we're now doing 1d10+3 (average damage ~9) in weapon damage versus 1d6+0 (average damage ~4), with no reduction in magic damage from Spell Combat/Spellstrike.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency needs BAB 1 - meaning a magus can't pick it up on level 1. But you could use a two-handed martial weapon at the beginning, either reach or not. Especially after you used up the few level 1 spells you have per day...
On the bright side, if we take that feat we were going to spend on Weapon Finesse and spend it on Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, we're now doing 1d10+3 (average damage ~9) in weapon damage versus 1d6+0 (average damage ~4), with no reduction in magic damage from Spell Combat/Spellstrike.Exotic Weapon Proficiency needs BAB 1 - meaning a magus can't pick it up on level 1. But you could use a two-handed martial weapon at the beginning, either reach or not. Especially after you used up the few level 1 spells you have per day...
Humans can get proficiency with 2 weapons of their choice with the Military Tradition alternate racial trait. So, it is possible for human magi to use bastard swords from the start of their career.
It helps if you pick an archetype with heavier armor and/or shield use. For instance, a Deep Marshal works well as a str based magus right out of the box. A breastplate with that 14 dex is a fine start and you can add a mithral buckler in later.
As to weapons, you could take a human with Adoptive Parentage to get Weapon Familiarity and that allows the Deep Marshal to use a Dwarven waraxe/Dwarven double waraxe one handed for a "more thematically interesting" weapon
Yeah, the fact that the standard Magus gets Medium and Heavy Armor had me thinking that it might make sense to go for a less DEX-oriented build.
In my opinion, the strength based Magus is superior to the Dex based one.
Since you are going human, you might want to look at Dual Talent in order to get +2 Str and Int. That will allow you to take a higher Con.
Dual Talent: Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.
As for AC, that is what the Shield spell and (later) a pocket full of Pearls of Power are for.
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Actually, the general "optimal" build is a dervish dancing scimitar-wielding magus so that you get Dex to damage and that nice 18-20 crit range.
I have played that build. I maintain that the Strength based Magus is better.
You need strength to carry equipment. Even with Burdenless Armor enchantment and a Handy Haversack you are going to have problems with carrying capacity.
Going for a more modest Dex and taking Shield spell will keep your AC reasonable while giving you an extra feat. You will also have less problems with equipment. You will still likely be using the Rapier or Scimitar because of the crit range, but now your armor will get better.
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You don't dump dex with a Str magus. 14 is standard so your AC is 2 points behind at level 1 but you have an actual damage modifier at this level and at level 2 and it's 1.5 str when your not using spell combat. Your damage remains better.
In addition you can use a better weapon Falcata, or bastard sword (use an ioun stone for proficiency).
You have an extra feat so you pick up improved initiative so Str builds have better initiatives than dex builds at least until level 8 ish (+4 belt + leveling stat increases).
What you get is access to better armor later on. Medium at level 7 evens your AC out between the two builds, more damage, better spell conservation because damage is higher, and better use of polymorph spells a four armed gargoyle with a bastard sword is scary.
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Scimitar-based build
First, I agree with everybody else who says a Str based Magus is quite viable.
That said, a dex based scimitar magus is VERY possible. In fact, for a long time it was the Go To build for Dex Based mages. Dervish Dance is STILL a good feat :-)
Unclear (lots of table variation) whether a dervish dancing magus can use a buckler these days or not.
Unclear (lots of table variation) whether a dervish dancing magus can use a buckler these days or not.
What is unclear about this? I'm not aware of any potential variations with views about this.
I feel like the question that comes up most is "how long until dervish dance is errata'd to be like other dex to damage options?"
The question is basically "how long until Dervish Dance is reprinted in an RPG line book."
But as to the basic question, for a lot of classes that can be built either way the "STR vs. DEX" question is largely a question of can the strength build survive long enough until they're better than the dex version. Investigators are the same way, the 1 level Swashbuckler dip gets a dex-based swashbuckler functional at low levels, but by the time you're level 6 STR-based Inv. 6 is better than Dex-based Inv. 5/Swash. 1.
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Woo, phone borked up and ate my post. Here's the micro version.
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I feel like the question that comes up most is "how long until dervish dance is errata'd to be like other dex to damage options?"The question is basically "how long until Dervish Dance is reprinted in an RPG line book."
But as to the basic question, for a lot of classes that can be built either way the "STR vs. DEX" question is largely a question of can the strength build survive long enough until they're better than the dex version. Investigators are the same way, the 1 level Swashbuckler dip gets a dex-based swashbuckler functional at low levels, but by the time you're level 6 STR-based Inv. 6 is better than Dex-based Inv. 5/Swash. 1.
The question for me is, is 2 ac worth losing 6 or more damage per attack for level 1 and 2 and possible access power attack. Does doing more damage keep you alive better the 1 in ten attacks missing. This is true for investigators as well especially if you use a 1 level dip, replacing swash for bloodrager with heavy armor. Or used the saved feat for armor proficency. Medium + 2 from dex gives you the same starting ac as light + 4 dex once you can afford a breastplate.
That all said I have a swashigator that I adore.
A look at the PFS pre-gen Magus, which is a Str build, shows it works. It posts comparable combat numbers to Dex builds, just with some different priorities here and there. You can argue the pre-gen Magus isn't optimized, and you're right, but it's playable.
I would have no problem with any even halfway decently designed Str Magus at the table!
I feel like the question that comes up most is "how long until dervish dance is errata'd to be like other dex to damage options?"The question is basically "how long until Dervish Dance is reprinted in an RPG line book."
But as to the basic question, for a lot of classes that can be built either way the "STR vs. DEX" question is largely a question of can the strength build survive long enough until they're better than the dex version. Investigators are the same way, the 1 level Swashbuckler dip gets a dex-based swashbuckler functional at low levels, but by the time you're level 6 STR-based Inv. 6 is better than Dex-based Inv. 5/Swash. 1.
The question for me is, is 2 ac worth losing 6 or more damage per attack for level 1 and 2 and possible access power attack. Does doing more damage keep you alive better the 1 in ten attacks missing. This is true for investigators as well especially if you use a 1 level dip, replacing swash for bloodrager with heavy armor. Or used the saved feat for armor proficency. Medium + 2 from dex gives you the same starting ac as light + 4 dex once you can afford a breastplate.
That all said I have a swashigator that I adore.
My strengthigator took the armor expert trait to wear mithral breastplate with no problem.
STR-based hexcrafter can really put the oompf into intimidate. With BTS up, and 2-handing when not using spell combat, I think the question is reversed. Outside of PFS, he'll be in full-plate, so his AC won't be as low, either. I think I'm going to build a few tonight just to compare...
Go for combat maneuvers, don't be a dumb hunk
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I ended up choosing Str-based Magus for my Tiefling hexcrafter, instead of Dex. More consistent damage, and actually getting interesting feat options right away is definitely my alley.
If I'm concerned about AC for the first couple levels, I can just use my level 1 spell slots on shield and make up any lost damage by being able to hit things with two hands.
Strength based investigators are even more of a no-brainer to me for how much better they are. Unless you're playing something like a Questioner, it's really about flavour choice if you want to go for dex.
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On a somewhat related note:
How viable is a Magus focusing on INT?
I play a blackblade magus in a home game, we are currently at lvl 5 and were rolling our stats at creation. I got really lucky and ended up with a beast:
STR 16
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 10
CH 6
I am planning on putting everything i get ability-wise in INT. I was really struggling to decide between going STR or going INT but INT seems somewhat more interesting to me, as my damage is already impressive and i can work on some more via strength-enhancing items.
Any experiences with an INT-focused magus?
--Malthus
If you don't replace spell recall you can try going this route:
Extra arcane pool (so you can recall more), spell focus evocation and improved spell focus, and then any traits/feats you increase your fireball DC. Remember, you can Just keep taking extra arcane pool after you've gotten everything else you need.
Just chuck fireballs like it's going out of style. Or replace fireball with something else, maybe something that won't kill you when you use spell combat.
The point is you're now a living artillery gun who can emergency buff via spell combat,defend yourself modestly via armor,BaB and proficiencies and play any number of secondary roles.
I have not tested this. I don't know how it would compare to a blaster wizard our sorcerer, but it seems really fun and unique.
EDIT:
A hilarious alternative variant involves magic missile + toppling spell With magical lineage trait to keep it at a level one slot. Trip multiple opponents from a range and cackle maniacally as your almost infinitely recallable level one spell wreaks havoc on mooks for the rest of the game. Seriously, this can eventually trip 5 people and you can refill it for one point from your arcane pool. With decent int and extra arcane pool this takes on a 3.5 warlock feel in that you have a practically at will blasting power.
Any experiences with an INT-focused magus?
Yes, the blackblade magus in my Iron Gods campaign is Int-focused. It is a weaker build than Dex-based and Str-based, especially at low levels. He grumbled about not being able to hit anything at 1st level and gave up on Spell Combat because the -2 penalty made that worse. At his current level 15, his BAB makes up for the lack of to-hit bonus from Strength or Dexterity.
He specializes in having the right spell at the right time, and then using spell recall to repeatedly use that right spell. He also carries several wands for basic spells, such as Snowball at caster level 5. He is more wizardly than a typical magus, but still able to engage in melee.
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The blasty-type does sound like an interesting concept, but we have a trigger-happy arcanist for that. Also it doesn't fit the type of person my character is.
Your last sentence "the more wizardly type of magus" hits exactly what I imagine him to be. He was taught his art at a wizards academy... but was equally interested in training with the martial academy teachers next door. On "finals" day he beat the crap out of his opponent with his quarterstaff instead of relying on spells... which caused kind of an outrage among the teachers and he decided to leave those close-minded fools for good.
A little "jack of all trades" type is what I have in mind ("Wait, I have a spell for that!"), with lots of different spells prepared and recalling the ones i use more frequently via my arcane pool.
I also plan to take the spell scar arcana at lvl 6. I love the fluff and it looks to add even more versatility to my character.
The first levels I had no problems holding myself in melee - although I ate dirt quite often, but that comes with being a glass cannon i suppose. (and somehow the DM's dice hate me... i got critted to near-death several times by goblins... GOBLINS!) And since level 4 I had no more problems with squishiness; shield and mirror image helped my survivability tremendously.
I use frostbite more often than shocking grasp, because when I start to focus, things die pretty quickly and i tend to almost outshine the other players. So I only use the BAM for the big ones or when we are in trouble.
I magical lineaged the everloving crap out of shocking grasp, too... an empowered shocking grasp is a lvl 1 spell for me. Yes, i know "munchkin", "min-maxing" and all that, but hey: That is my first roleplaying character since... eight years I believe? So I wanted to have a little fun with him. :)
--Malthus
Using both Frostbite and Shocking Grasp is smart, anyway. There are a lot of Electric-immune foes out there. Maxing out one's return on Shocking Grasp is a good play, but it has counters; anyone who calls it 'cheap' is overlooking a lot of other, far stronger moves available to many other classes.
On a somewhat related note:
How viable is a Magus focusing on INT?
I play a blackblade magus in a home game, we are currently at lvl 5 and were rolling our stats at creation. I got really lucky and ended up with a beast:
STR 16
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 10
CH 6I am planning on putting everything i get ability-wise in INT. I was really struggling to decide between going STR or going INT but INT seems somewhat more interesting to me, as my damage is already impressive and i can work on some more via strength-enhancing items.
Any experiences with an INT-focused magus?
--Malthus
I do them that way, whether DEX or STR, I always keep my INT highest. The benefit from an increased arcane pool, additional spells, etc., is worth it for a couple additional points in to-hit. Once the magus is high enough level, he's rarely missing anyway (and often resolving attacks as touch).
I lied, I didn't get around to building a comparison set. Maybe tonight...
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@RickDias:
Very true. Also I am not a fan of putting all my money on one trick... I like to keep a variety of viable options open and experiment a little with different moves. Strangely we haven't had an encounter with undead yet (I think this is my first character to go up to lvl 5 without ever encountering undead), but I plan on adding Chill Touch to my spell list. Frigid touch I have already, but right now I need my lvl 2 spell slots for survivability and spell recall with lvl 2 slots is too expensive for me.
I like the thought of having lots of Spellstrike channeling options, like a toolbox with the right stuff always at hand.
@taks:
That's what I thought, too. I figured, I'd get more mileage out of INT and it fits the type of character I want to play better. Skills, arcane pool, concentration, more spells, stronger spell DCs... Yeah I think I'll stick with a focus on INT. :)
Any recommendations for useful touch spells? Maybe from the wizard spell list, too. (Spell Blending Arcana)
I was eyeballing the lvl 1 wizard spell Touch of Blindness. But I am open to suggestions, I like to expand my spellstriking toolbox. Damage, debuffs, CC... the more variety, the better.
Thanks for the feedback, everybody. :)
--Malthus
With stats like that, I would suggest a Kensai Magus. They get to add their INT to a lot of things, including AC. A Kensai Bladebound needs neither weapon nor armor. But if you want to boost your AC further, then know that you can still wear an enchanted Haramaki.
STR based is more than viable, especially with those stats, though I prefer going DEX based because I like having high Touch AC and I feel that it helps patch up the Magus's poor Reflex save.