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Er, the default PB assumed in APs is 15. 20 is the standard for PFS. Neither one is more "official" than the other. IMO, 15 works fine when the players coordinate as a group to make a good interlocking team. PFS 20 allows some wiggle rooms to let less efficient groups be successful, groups who may be missing one or more party roles.For those who don't know, Lady-J plays in games where ability scores are quite inflated compared to many other groups. I've seen comments where she indicates that ~14 is a "dump stat" and feels characters with (any) stats of 12 are unplayably weak. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that - if her group has fun they're doing it right. But it does inform context for how I read her posts.
mark seifter is on record stating that 15PB is a math error and it should have been 20PB all along.
EDIT: i cannot currently find the thread, but i found an interview hich mentions it.
interview
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wrong 10 and 12 are dump stats and yes any character with a 12 in a main or secondary stat is unplayable
You're not convincing anyone your game play isn't skewed from the average game any more by posting this.
Why bother arguing with Lady-J? We've known for ages that their games are at a far higher level of power than a typical PF game. They refuse to recognize this, so any argument when it comes to numbers is pointless.
I waffle between that and the realization that they answer almost every question with that kind of shaky information on the state of the game.
FWIW, Dwarven Crafter Wizards are totally playable with an INT of 12.
You just put your level ups into INT, craft your own headbands to keep up with your spell levels, and never cast anything with a DC.
I'm not sure any other class is genuinely effective with a 12 in its primary stat, but we can just point to the title of this thread here.
As a general statement assume statistical averages. 9th spell level implies 17th level or CR19. 19*(4.5+1) is just very slightly over 101hps, so on average the spell will have little effect. Powers can vary greatly at that high level. Sure, you can kill 0 experience encounters with it.Basically you cannot outright kill a creature without a failed save OR succeeding in a ranged touch.Umm...
Man, those goal posts are shifting so fast. Hard to keep track.
"unplayable" LOL
yes but that means one of 2 things either int is not their primary ability score(which is counter to what i said main stat is primary stat ie highest stat they have or sub primary ie secondary stat and the 2nd highest stat they have) or that their other ability scores are 11 and lower with the possibility of having one stat higher then a 12 if int is their secondary stat which means the dwarf probably wont live to even reach level 3 to even get craft wondrous items to make an int headbandFWIW, Dwarven Crafter Wizards are totally playable with an INT of 12.
You just put your level ups into INT, craft your own headbands to keep up with your spell levels, and never cast anything with a DC.
I'm not sure any other class is genuinely effective with a 12 in its primary stat, but we can just point to the title of this thread here.
I could start with 12 int, 18 con, and 18 Wis, 10 str, 10 Dex, 6 Cha.
I level int because it is my primary. I focus on crafting, buffs, utility, and summoning.
I'm still going to kill it in that game.
Or, he can just put ranks in Spellcraft and just use that to craft everything he wants, since everything he needs can be done with a single skill.
Whereas a non-caster who wants to do so needs to wait even longer (minimum 5 levels, realistically around 7 levels), has to spend an additional feat, can only ever craft one kind of thing (since the additional feat can only be taken once, for one kind of craft, which certain Craft [Item] feats cannot fully be encompassed with), and is even more difficult, expensive (and by relation time-consuming), and lackluster in comparison.
It's called the Caster/Martial disparity for a reason. Anyone who has some modicum of spells is good, anyone with Full Spellcasting is ~God, and anyone without spellcasting sucks nuts in comparison. It's probably the sole reason E6 and PFS's "12 level limit" rules were created.
What? My epic, mythic fighter isn't more powerful than a wizard? Teleport? I just slice through the time space barrier and BAM, teleport and planar travel. Fly? I just punch the ground and the planet moves away from me - TADA! I'm flying! Invisibility? I kill everyone in the room and they can't see me. Mind control? I call that my intimidation skill. Divination? My CHARACTER forces the GM to tell me the plot. RAWR!
found the thread and on of his posts, he obviously had a different account back then.
wrong 10 and 12 are dump stats and yes any character with a 12 in a main or secondary stat is unplayablewhat is that"normal" stats? because the officially recognized and used way of stats is 20PB.
Higher stats allows that 20 stat in INT to occur. To do with normal stats it just doesn't happen. You'll see 16 INT wizard instead. That 2 points actually makes a huge difference. Then you have wealth. Give wizard too much wealth and they get access to more spells much faster to add to the spell book, more perfect combos sooner. Then on top of that scribe scrolls so they always have the perfect spell ready. Keeping with normal wealth by level ranges this is more controlled.Er, the default PB assumed in APs is 15. 20 is the standard for PFS. Neither one is more "official" than the other. IMO, 15 works fine when the players coordinate as a group to make a good interlocking team. PFS 20 allows some wiggle rooms to let less efficient groups be successful, groups who may be missing one or more party roles.
For those who don't know, Lady-J plays in games where ability scores are quite inflated compared to many other groups. I've seen comments where she indicates that ~14 is a "dump stat" and feels characters with (any) stats of 12 are unplayably weak. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that - if her group has fun they're doing it right. But it does inform context for how I read her posts.
Off topic; I have a non social alchemist with CHA 8. Instantly unplayable?
On topic, even Spellcasters that don't get to Spell rank 9 can shit the power scale over depending on what they do and build. Because Martials effect mainly combat, Casters can effect combat and the setting.
What? My epic, mythic fighter isn't more powerful than a wizard? Teleport? I just slice through the time space barrier and BAM, teleport and planar travel. Fly? I just punch the ground and the planet moves away from me - TADA! I'm flying! Invisibility? I kill everyone in the room and they can't see me. Mind control? I call that my intimidation skill. Divination? My CHARACTER forces the GM to tell me the plot. RAWR!
The sad thing is, I wish a couple of those abilities were actual features a martial character could have. It'd certainly breach the gap between martials and casters a fair bit.
But, the problem then becomes "Hey, it's like casting X spell, except it's technically not casting X spell." Which defeats the purpose of trying to disperse the Caster/Martial disparity.
Primary is the stat I use the most. It can be lower than other stats.
Word definitions are fun and pointless arguments.
I feel like we can agree that, absent context of a specific build, we can agree on what statistics are primary or most important to that class.
Like Cleric (wisdom), Oracle (charisma), Wizard (intelligence), Rogue (dexterity), Sorcerer (charisma), Monk (strength, dexterity, wisdom, constitution), Kineticist (Dex, Con), Swashbuckler (Dex, Cha), etc.
Since Wizards are the prototypical "Single Attribute Dependent" class, I don't think we need to argue that intelligence is not the primary stat in case a particular wizard has something else higher.
The point is that a wizard doesn't even need high intelligence to be effective. You can play a wizard in a 0 point-buy game and be better off than most everybody else (Dwarf Wizard with stats of 7, 12, 14, 12, 14, 5, say.)
Not just that; the lower the point buy, the more attractive the full casters become.
That zero point buy Wizard functions quite fully. A zero point buy Fighter does not.
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Not just that; the lower the point buy, the more attractive the full casters become.
That zero point buy Wizard functions quite fully. A zero point buy Fighter does not.
Functioning fully, you're probably right, but functioning passibly, I think you can (barely) pull off a Fighter on 0 point buy:
Fighter (Human): Str 13 + 2 = 15 (put all level-up increases here); Dex 10 (armor up as soon as possible, and get a Belt of Mighty Hurling as soon as possible); Con 14; Int 7; Wis 10 (get Armed Bravery, Iron Will, and anti-Enchantment magic items as soon as possible); Cha 7.
Let's see what else we can do on 0 point buy (note: some other races might be better for the above and the following -- I am just making everything Human for simplicity, and I have to totally blow by my own anti-dumping guideline; also apologies in advance if I botched my sums in the process of copying and pasting ability scores when an interchange rather than a straight copy and paste was required):
Core Classes
Barbarian (optionally Unchained): Like Fighter, but no Armed Bravery unless you go VMC Fighter, and then it takes a LONG time to get, so be even more careful of self-TPKs, and going with Heavy Armor requires the Armored Hulk archetype.
Bard: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 13 (put 4th level-up increase here, go for crossbow archery, and stay out of the front line), Con 12 (stay out of the front line), Int 7, Wis 10 (get Iron Will and anti-Enchantment magic items as soon as possible), Cha 13 + 2 = 15 (put all level-up increases except 4th level here).
Cleric: Str 11 (can't dump because you need to be able to carry your armor), Dex 10 (armor up as soon as possible); Con 12 (Get Toughness at 1st level), Int 7, Wis 14 + 2 = 16 (put all level-up increases here), Cha 7 (don't invest in Channeling); you have to be pretty much a caster-only Cleric, and this one's really marginal for not being able to do much other stuff.
Druid: Like Cleric, but ability score increases from Wildshape help, while being restricted on armor hurts potentially to the point of being fatal.
Fighter: See preview above.
Monk (pre-Unchained or Unchained): NO WAY (Super-MAD, and on the Unchained Monk chassis in particular, you really can't afford to skimp on Wisdom).
Paladin: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 15 + 2 = 17 (put all level-up increases here except 4th level-up, go for crossbow archery, but also get Weapon Finesse and a Dex-to-Damage feat when you can, but avoid the front line when possible), Con 12 (Get Toughness and Great Fortitude at 1st level), Int 7, Wis 7 (put 4th level-up increase here), Cha 13 (put 4th level-up increase here).
Ranger: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 15 + 2 = 17 (put all level-up increases here except 4th level-up, go for crossbow archery, but also get Weapon Finesse and a Dex-to-Damage feat when you can, but avoid the front line when possible), Con 12 (Get Toughness and Great Fortitude at 1st level), Int 7, Wis 13 (put 4th level-up increase here), Cha 7; you want the Animal Companion, not the Hunter's Bond.
Rogue (really needs to be Unchained): Str 10, Dex 12 (put all level-up increases here), Con 12 (Get Toughness and Great Fortitude at 1st level), Int 10, Wis 10 (get Iron Will and anti-Enchantment magic items as soon as possible), Cha 7 (no Intimidate build for you).
Sorcerer: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 10 (invest in non-armor protection as soon as possible), Constitution 13 (put 4th level-up increase here), Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 15 + 2 = 17 (put all level-up increases except 4th level here); big problem, though: If the arcane caster doesn't have the smarts to get the Intelligence-based skills, who will?
Wizard: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 10 (invest in non-armor protection as soon as possible), Constitution 13 (put 4th level-up increase here), Int 15 + 2 = 17 (put all level-up increases except 4th level here), Wis 8, Cha 7.
Base Classes (including Shifter and Vigilante)
Alchemist: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 13 (put 4th level-up increase here; go Mad Bomber, and get Weapon Finesse and Dex-to-Damage when you can, but avoid the front line when possible), Con 12 (Get Toughness at 1st level), Int 13 + 2 = 15 (put all level-up increases except 4th level here), Wis 10 (get Iron Will and anti-Enchantment magic items as soon as possible), Cha 7.
Cavalier: Like Fighter, but no Armed Bravery unless you go VMC Fighter, and then it takes a LONG time to get, so be even more careful of self-TPKs.
Gunslinger: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 15 + 2 = 17 (put all level-up increases here except 4th level-up, and stay out of the front line), Con 12 (Get Toughness and Great Fortitude at 1st level, and stay out of the front line), Int 7, Wis 13 (put 4th level-up increase here), Cha 7; DON'T take an archetype that moves Grit to something other than Wisdom.
Inquisitor: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 15 + 2 = 17 (put 4th and 20th level-up increases here, go for crossbow archery, but also get Weapon Finesse and a Dex-to-Damage feat when you can, but avoid the front line when possible), Con 12 (Get Toughness at 1st level), Int 7, Wis 13 (put 8th, 12th, and 16th level-up increases here), Cha 7; archetypes that give you companions or summons are helpful.
Magus: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 13 (put 4th level-up increase here; get Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance when you can, but avoid the front line when possible, and watch out for possible future nerfs to Dervish dance), Con 12 (Get Toughness at 1st level), Int 13 + 2 = 15 (put all level-up increases except 4th level here), Wis 10, Cha 7.
Oracle: See Sorcerer above, and don't take a Mystery that requires you to be something other than a pure caster Oracle, and you aren't the arcane caster, so the party just might have somebody else who has some smarts.
Shifter: Like Fighter, but no Armed Bravery unless you go VMC Fighter, and then it takes a LONG time to get, so be even more careful of self-TPKs.
Summoner (optionally Unchained): See Sorcerer above.
Vigilante: In general, see Rogue above, although this goes out the window for many of the archetypes.
Witch: See Wizard above.
Alternate Classes
Antipaladin: See Paladin above.
Ninja: See Rogue above, but you aren't going to be much of a Ki user, and since you don't get Unchained Rogue's Finesse, you have to invest in Weapon Finesse and Dex-to-Damage, and you can't afford to dump Wisdom on this chassis, so this is worse.
Samurai: See Cavalier above.
Hybrid Classes
Arcanist: See Wizard above, and you aren't going to be able to use the Charisma-dependent Exploits.
Bloodrager: NO WAY (MAD, and you can't afford to dump Wisdom on this chassis).
Brawler: NO WAY (MAD; unlike Fighter, you can't armor up).
Hunter: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 14 (put 4th and 8th level-up increases here, and go for crossbow archery, but also get Weapon Finesse and a Dex-to-Damage feat when you can, but avoid the front line when possible), Con 12 (Get Toughness and Great Fortitude at 1st level), Int 7, Wis 14 + 2 = 16 (put all level-up increases here except 4th and 8th level), Cha 7; DON'T take an archetype that impairs your Animal Companion.
Investigator: See Alchemist above, but instead of Mad Bomber, go for crossbow archery.
Shaman: See Cleric above.
Skald: See Bard above.
Slayer: See Ninja above, except you don't have to worry about missing out on Ki, and you have better accuracy, and the option (which you should take) for Ranger Combat Style (DON'T take an archetype that impairs this).
Swashbuckler: NO WAY (MAD, and you can't afford to dump Wisdom on this chassis).
Warpriest: Str 13 + 2 = 15 (put 4th level-up increase here); Dex 10 (armor up as soon as possible, and get Guided Hand to use with ranged attacks as soon as possible -- unfortunately requires the absolutely awful feat tax Channel Smite, and you'll need to use retraining shenanigans to get it online as soon as possible; alternatively, get a Belt of Mighty Hurling), Con 12 (Get Toughness and Great Fortitude at 1st level); Int 7; Wis 13 (put all level-up increases here except 4th level); Cha 7.
Occult Classes
Kineticist: Str 7 (watch out for encumbrance in the early levels), Dex 14, Con 14 + 2 = 16 (put all level-up increases here), Int 7, Wis 10 (get Iron Will and anti-Enchantment magic items as soon as possible), Chr 7.
Medium: NO WAY (MAD, and you can't afford to dump Wisdom on this chassis, and you need physical stats to make good use of Champion).
Mesmerist: See Bard above, except you have a better base Will Save.
Occultist: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 15 + 2 = 17 (put 4th level-up increase here, go for crossbow archery, but also get Weapon Finesse and a Dex-to-Damage feat when you can, but avoid the front line when possible), Con 12 (Get Toughness and Great Fortitude at 1st level), Int 7, Wis 13 (put all level-up increases except 4th level here), Cha 7.
Psychic: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 10 (invest in non-armor protection as soon as possible), Constitution 10 (get Toughness and Great Fortitude at 1st level, and invest heavily in non-armor defense), Int 14 + 2 = 16 (put all level-up increases except 4th level here), Wis 13 (put 4th level-up increase here), Cha 7; try not to choose a Discipline that requires Charisma for Phrenic Pool (even with a good Base Will Save, you DON'T want to dump Wisdom), but if you must, interchange Wisdom and Charisma, and get Iron Will as soon as you can.
Spiritualist: See Occultist above.
Building the Party
On 0 point buy, everyone would have to coordinate EXTREMELY carefully in creation of characters, not just on an individual basis, but to make sure that the party as a whole has everything covered, and continue this when acquiring, investing in, and distributing magic items -- you have no margin of error. All thoughts of cool individual concepts pretty much have to go out the window -- you just have to hunker down and do whatever you need to do to survive (which is why I wouldn't WANT to be on 0 point buy in most cases).
Final Thoughts
Aarrgghh! Now I've stayed up past 04:00 in the morning again making what unintentionally turned into a mini-guide ! . . .
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...0 point buy is better known as Etrian Odyssey mode.
You're using a crossbow, probably.
Occultist: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 15 + 2 = 17 (put 4th level-up increase here, go for crossbow archery, but also get Weapon Finesse and a Dex-to-Damage feat when you can, but avoid the front line when possible), Con 12 (Get Toughness and Great Fortitude at 1st level), Int 7, Wis 13 (put all level-up increases except 4th level here), Cha 7.
This character can't cast any of their spells- the occultist's casting and metacurrency both key off intelligence, not wisdom.
The math is fun and all but doesn't change the fact a cloth wearer sitting in the back with less risk of being touched and counting on only one stat to.function is going to do better than a melee class up close to combat.
In the SAD wins, so lower point buy works better for SAD
Especially those cloth wearers who get an untouched sack of meat to go into the fray for them. Druid, Summoner, et cetera.
{Ways to get a couple of classes I counted as too MAD}
Yes, I noted that some races other than Human might be more optimal for some of the classes. I was keeping everything Human with no alternate racial traits to keep it simple. (For that matter, Dual-Talent Human might be able to do a bit more than what I said above, although watch out for being short on the feats you need to shore up your horrific weaknesses, even at low levels.) Although I have to say that's an awfully wimpy Bloodrager . . . Edit: Now that we're talking about non-Humans (or Dual-Talent Humans), let's try this:
Hobgoblin or Dual-Talent Human Urban Bloodrager: Str 7, Dex 13 + 2 = 15 (get Weapon Finesse and Dex-to-Damage as soon as possible, and put 4th, 16th, and 20th level-up increases here), Con 12 + 2 = 14, Int 7, Wis 10 (get Iron Will and anti-Enchantment magic items as soon as possible), Cha 12 (put 8th and 12th level-up increases here)
Occultist: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 15 + 2 = 17 (put 4th level-up increase here, go for crossbow archery, but also get Weapon Finesse and a Dex-to-Damage feat when you can, but avoid the front line when possible), Con 12 (Get Toughness and Great Fortitude at 1st level), Int 7, Wis 13 (put all level-up increases except 4th level here), Cha 7.This character can't cast any of their spells- the occultist's casting and metacurrency both key off intelligence, not wisdom.
Oops -- copied in the Wisdom caster array by mistake. (Wait, at 04:00 in the morning, I only messed up ONE of these?) Let's try this again:
Occultist: Str 7 (watch out for Encumbrance!), Dex 15 + 2 = 17 (put 4th level-up increase here, go for crossbow archery, but also get Weapon Finesse and a Dex-to-Damage feat when you can, but avoid the front line when possible), Con 12 (Get Toughness and Great Fortitude at 1st level), Int 13 (put all level-up increases except 4th level here), Wis 7 (get Iron Will and anti-Enchantment magic items as soon as possible), Cha 7.
Minor quibble, but for the 0-point buy Occultist, I would put the 15 in INT not Dex. Take transmutation as one of your first implements, and having enough mental focus (from your IntMod) will let you start out with a +2 enhancement bonus to a physical stat from the resonant power.
Of course "just be an elf" works, since they have the best FCB for the class.
...0 point buy is better known as Etrian Odyssey mode.
I've actually toyed around with Etrian + Pathfinder. Might yoink this.
Minor quibble, but for the 0-point buy Occultist, I would put the 15 in INT not Dex. Take transmutation as one of your first implements, and having enough mental focus (from your IntMod) will let you start out with a +2 enhancement bonus to a physical stat from the resonant power.
Of course "just be an elf" works, since they have the best FCB for the class.
Fair enough -- I'll keep this in mind. I was just trying to show that something workable could be made at all on 0 point buy, without having to dig through all the various racial options and offbeat archetypes. Not that I would WANT to play under 0 point buy under most circumstances -- that's too close to my real life(*) -- but it's still a good exercise for figuring out how to deal with 15 point buy, which itself already feels cramped.
(*)I seem to have been made with point buy in the range -3 to +6.
(*)I seem to have been made with point buy in the range -3 to +6.
Thankfully, I don't think you beat demons to death with a pointy metal stick for a living. ^^U
Could you clarify that, please? Are you talking one caster soloing a dungeon? Are you talking a party of 4 casters is better than a party of 4 martials? Are you saying that in a mixed party, the caster does most of the work?The world hardest dungeon is consistently won by casters.
One encounter after another. No 15 minute work days. And no, contrary to expectations here, a good wizard doesn't run out of spells.
The worlds hardest dungeon is an annual event at the big con's called the cheesegrinder. People queue up to play a group of 6. You design characters based a set of rules, money, stat build etc.
You play, facing a never ending array of CR legal encounters until you die. For most casual players, thats one room. Samples of rooms past include: 6 bodaks (6 forts saves please..) 4 advanced gorgons. 14 advanced wraiths coming up from the ground.
Being teleport underwater. Vampire monks.
As people die, new people step in to face the next room. The players that accomplish the most rooms face off against each other in a final battle royale.
Generally speaking, casters win. And each year additional restriction are made to make it harder and harder for casters to win. Its gone from 11th level to 9th; eliminated a bunch of things like contingency spells, permanent spells, partial wand purchases, blink etc.
Returning back to the topic at hand.
You here a lot that wizards are overpowered. But the fact remains that they are the least played core class. What was the figure in the last poll .. 4%.
It also doesn't change the fact that through the first few levels wizards are, if not the least powerful class, then extremely fragile.
You have the lowest hit points; you are feat intensive; your saves are poor. Your weapon and armor proficiencies are mostly non existent.
You die to crits, to provoking while casting, drowning, and you have to commit early money to spells, instead of shoring up weaknesses.
Crafting a good front line takes a fair amount of upfront effort. Optimizing the right feats and combinations - but after established, its fairly auto pilot.
Playing a wizard is more difficult. You have to optimize your buildout of 20 spells every night - and manage your scroll and wand collection.
During play you have to manage other players expectations; keep yourself alive; know the appropriate spells for the creatures.
And the reward for sucking up 7 levels of suck is lengthy diatribes about how over powered wizards are.
Meh.
In what nine or ten years of playing pathfinder, including playing at most of the major cons, I can count the number of times on one hand that I have played a pfs event with another wizard.
And this disparity of the number of martial players vs wizard players shows up in rather one sided discussions of caster/martial disparities.
Final note: When I play a wizard, I rather look upon myself as the emergency get out of jail card; If the other players can handle the encounter - I contribute in small ways. Knowledge checks. Its only when we're clearly over our heads and in trouble that I break out the big guns.
This minimizes the two problems wizards are famous for - the 15 minute work week and the "making the event unfun for everyone else".