Why are wizards considered overpowered?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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"Don't be a dick" is a good principle, but I don't think it's particularly helpful in managing most questions of infra-party balance. If I creepily hit on another player, or steal their books, or belittle them, that's being a dick - I'm contravening the ordinarily acceptable rules of polite society and invoke its sanctions.

If Alice and Bob naively make characters (say Alice wants to play a magical scholar and Bob wants to play a brave knight, and so they go through the CRB and pick the classes that best correspond to that) and then get run through situations where they apply lateral thinking using what their characters know to collectively solve problems - which is a very large part of the fun of D&D - then they may find that Alice has a lot more tools to work with than Bob. (A 10th level fighter can absolutely apply lateral thinking, roleplaying finesse, and common sense to solve problems out of combat - just as well as a 10th level commoner can.) Alice and Bob are approaching and playing the game in very similar, good-faith ways; it's just that Alice wrote "wizard" on her character sheet and Bob wrote "fighter." (If they write "alchemist" and "paladin" instead, say, they deal with much less of this.)

There isn't any obvious Jerk Line where Alice's using the options available to her becomes socially unacceptable, even if all players agree that (1) lateral thinking with a character's abilities is a core part of the fun of the game and (2) Alice's greater ability to do that makes Bob sometimes feels a regrettable lack of agency, so relying on social intuitions can lead to a lot of lack of clarity and misunderstandings, which is why many prefer explicitly (rather than implicitly) redefining what classes can do or what classes are options.


Our high level party faced the AMF great wyrm gold dragon.

The Dragon should have left it off. It suppressed his own buff spells, blocked his time stop, and in the air it would knock people out of the air (AMF disables flight, so the martials we're always outside and range). Meanwhile my casters were healing people and changing the battlefield to help out the martials.

It's a bad strategy for a dragon and is only used in desperation. Like if a caster knows calcific touch.


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Great Wyrm had a bad strategy and focused the wrong targets (casters first, archers second, melee third), so he was bound to lose.

The buff spells would only be a catch-all if his AMF was negated by the likes of Spellbane, so he wouldn't be absolutely screwed, and make the casters waste their turns. Relying on Time Stop while implementing AMF was a stupid idea, when he should've used spells like Gate for outside help or buffing prior to AMF implementation.

Simply put, the Dragon was played bad and didn't make for a good boss fight because of it.

**EDIT** If played optimally, the Dragon would've TPK'D that party.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Much like Schrodinger's Wizard, Schrodinger's Great Wyrm has the best spell for every situation. And is entirely hypothetical.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Much like Schrodinger's Wizard, Schrodinger's Great Wyrm has the best spell for every situation. And is entirely hypothetical.

I'd say so. Because Schrodinger has a Cat familiar, not a Great Wyrm familiar...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Darksol, you do get the point I'm making though right? You're assuming that the Dragon knows all the exact spells needed to counter a wizard who knows Aroden's Spellbane. First off the only Ancient Wyrm from the Chromatic Dragons that even gets 9th level spells is the Red Dragon. And it only gets exactly 2 9th level spells.

Do you really think that nearly every Evil Ancient Wyrm in existence that a party could face will be a Red Dragon with Gate and Aroden's Spellbane as it's exact 2 9th level spells known?

Edit: For completions sake I looked through all the dragon entres I could find to see what other evil dragons could cast 9th level spells. Only other ones I could find were Void Dragons, Rift Dragons, Infernal Dragons, and Forest Dragons. All of which also know only 2 spells and most of which are less likely to be encountered than a Red Dragon.

Sovereign Court

At Level 1, just out of character creation:

Wizards can use Magic Missile.

Sure it isn't a fat 1d12+STR that also functions as a can opener like a Lucerne Hammer, but you know what it does that nothing else in the game does? It always hits.

There is no save, no attack roll, and no partial cover. One target within 110 feet takes 1d4+1 damage. Spell Resistance is something usually only Outsiders or casters have. It also affect incorporeal creatures, unlike that Greataxe. There is no penalty for being a Small caster unless you get Grappled or need to move to get into range.

Level 3:

Wizards get Protection from Arrows for DR 10/Magic vs ranged. This means a Composite Longbow with +2 STR will NEVER be able to punch through his DR.

The Wizard can also drop a Web all around you so you can't get in melee.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Darksol, you do get the point I'm making though right? You're assuming that the Dragon knows all the exact spells needed to counter a wizard who knows Aroden's Spellbane. First off the only Ancient Wyrm from the Chromatic Dragons that even gets 9th level spells is the Red Dragon. And it only gets exactly 2 9th level spells.

Do you really think that nearly every Evil Ancient Wyrm in existence that a party could face will be a Red Dragon with Gate and Aroden's Spellbane as it's exact 2 9th level spells known?

Edit: For completions sake I looked through all the dragon entres I could find to see what other evil dragons could cast 9th level spells. Only other ones I could find were Void Dragons, Rift Dragons, Infernal Dragons, and Forest Dragons. All of which also know only 2 spells and most of which are less likely to be encountered than a Red Dragon.

Or to say it more more generally the way for your lizard to beat the wizard is have more wizard on your lizard. :P

Wizards are strong because they can potentially have an answer solution or contribution to any scenario. Many of those solutions require the GM to plan around then in order to make a specific narrative function just because they could potentially break it. In contrast the degree of narrative changes that many other classes require are significantly less involved or complex.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Darksol, you do get the point I'm making though right? You're assuming that the Dragon knows all the exact spells needed to counter a wizard who knows Aroden's Spellbane. First off the only Ancient Wyrm from the Chromatic Dragons that even gets 9th level spells is the Red Dragon. And it only gets exactly 2 9th level spells.

Do you really think that nearly every Evil Ancient Wyrm in existence that a party could face will be a Red Dragon with Gate and Aroden's Spellbane as it's exact 2 9th level spells known?

Edit: For completions sake I looked through all the dragon entres I could find to see what other evil dragons could cast 9th level spells. Only other ones I could find were Void Dragons, Rift Dragons, Infernal Dragons, and Forest Dragons. All of which also know only 2 spells and most of which are less likely to be encountered than a Red Dragon.

I do. I understand you're saying that it's unrealistic for a Dragon to have that kind of preparation.

But I disagree with the premise that a Dragon, especially one that is at the height of its age category, having countless experience and power at its grasp, can't think up of a solution.

By that logic, the Wizard can't come up with half of the broken combinations they could because "lolrealism." I imagine you would also probably say that it's unlikely for a Wizard to do a lot of the stuff that they can do, but considering most everyone on these forums has experienced or at the very least noted what can happen, and shut their games down before it could happen, it's not really something that's unfounded to permit.

I mean, heaven forbid one becomes a BBEG and is actually competent at being the BBEG, doing its damnedest to make sure the PCs fail in their quest, because "Dragons #1, suck it mortals." (By the way, the Dragon is going to wear a shirt that says that, so...yeah.)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Darksol, you do get the point I'm making though right? You're assuming that the Dragon knows all the exact spells needed to counter a wizard who knows Aroden's Spellbane. First off the only Ancient Wyrm from the Chromatic Dragons that even gets 9th level spells is the Red Dragon. And it only gets exactly 2 9th level spells.

Do you really think that nearly every Evil Ancient Wyrm in existence that a party could face will be a Red Dragon with Gate and Aroden's Spellbane as it's exact 2 9th level spells known?

Edit: For completions sake I looked through all the dragon entres I could find to see what other evil dragons could cast 9th level spells. Only other ones I could find were Void Dragons, Rift Dragons, Infernal Dragons, and Forest Dragons. All of which also know only 2 spells and most of which are less likely to be encountered than a Red Dragon.

I do. I understand you're saying that it's unrealistic for a Dragon to have that kind of preparation.

But I disagree with the premise that a Dragon, especially one that is at the height of its age category, having countless experience and power at its grasp, can't think up of a solution.

By that logic, the Wizard can't come up with half of the broken combinations they could because "lolrealism." I imagine you would also probably say that it's unlikely for a Wizard to do a lot of the stuff that they can do, but considering most everyone on these forums has experienced or at the very least noted what can happen, and shut their games down before it could happen, it's not really something that's unfounded to permit.

I mean, heaven forbid one becomes a BBEG and is actually competent at being the BBEG, doing its damnedest to make sure the PCs fail in their quest, because "Dragons #1, suck it mortals." (By the way, the Dragon is going to wear a shirt that says that, so...yeah.)

Well for one the Wizard likely has a higher INT than the dragon at that level so I wouldn't say it's unlikely that they could think of all those combinations.

But that's besides the point. I'm not saying it's unrealistic for an Ancient Wyrm to have that kind of preparation. I'm saying you're proposing an unrealistic hypothetical in which ALL Great Wyrms have the solution to the wizard when most can't even cast the 9th level spells necessary and you've assumed that the specific one they're facing who only knows two level 9 spells in total has exactly Gate and Aroden's Spellbane.

Meanwhile the Wizard knows (has in his spellbook) far more level 9 spells and is thus far more likely to have those spells, especially considering their higher intelligence.

Yes, you can design a custom Dragon that way. But it's false to say that the PCs can't beat a Great Wyrm played to their fullest in general because most can't even cast the level of spells in the tactics you're mentioning and the odds aren't likely that all those who can have those exact 2 spells known out of all spells in existence.


If the GM is playing to win the dragon will research the party and use magic items. He might even have backup, but most GM'S really want the player's to win so on some level they hold back. In other words I don't see a dragon losing too much if it's played like a PC.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
If the GM is playing to win the dragon will research the party and use magic items. He might even have backup, but most GM'S really want the player's to win so on some level they hold back. In other words I don't see a dragon losing too much if it's played like a PC.

If the GM is treating it like a game to win the PCs were doomed from the start regardless of level.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Great Wyrm had a bad strategy and focused the wrong targets (casters first, archers second, melee third), so he was bound to lose.

The buff spells would only be a catch-all if his AMF was negated by the likes of Spellbane, so he wouldn't be absolutely screwed, and make the casters waste their turns. Relying on Time Stop while implementing AMF was a stupid idea, when he should've used spells like Gate for outside help or buffing prior to AMF implementation.

Simply put, the Dragon was played bad and didn't make for a good boss fight because of it.

**EDIT** If played optimally, the Dragon would've TPK'D that party.

We didn't even have a wizard. Spellbane wasn't even a consideration. I was a qmystic theurge

AMF is worse for a dragon than just having spells.

We didn't have a primary Archer.

He did go after the caster first. He triggered my lead Tipi and I fell outside his melee range. AMF was bad for his plan of getting close to me.


Great Wyrm was still played pretty bad. There were several things he could have done to counter you via anti-magic, and didn't. I mean, the epitomy of Draconic lineage should be able to put up a better fight than any other animal falling for a basic woodland trap...


What's a lead tipi


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Great Wyrm was still played pretty bad. There were several things he could have done to counter you via anti-magic, and didn't. I mean, the epitomy of Draconic lineage should be able to put up a better fight than any other animal falling for a basic woodland trap...

AMF is a bad strategy.

Noob dragons use it


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Jurassic Pratt wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
If the GM is playing to win the dragon will research the party and use magic items. He might even have backup, but most GM'S really want the player's to win so on some level they hold back. In other words I don't see a dragon losing too much if it's played like a PC.
If the GM is treating it like a game to win the PCs were doomed from the start regardless of level.

Obviously if the GM is playing to kill the characters as her goal she can just have rocks fall them and kill them at any moment, but in context this clearly means "play intelligent hostile NPCs as if they are trying to win."

Obviously there are a couple of different philosophies about this kind of thing that are all legitimate for different players. Starting up a creature and playing it as strategically as it would itself can, over the course of many encounters, strengthen a sense of immersion. Playing to the hilt within a CR "budget" can give you and the players a fun tactical game (though different editions are better-calibrated for this than others.) And playing it just to where you're sure the players will win prevents disruptions to the next act of the story. These are all reasonable ways to go about it, but some players or GMs can also understandably get frustrated when they don't jive with what the rest of the table prefers.


MR. H wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Great Wyrm was still played pretty bad. There were several things he could have done to counter you via anti-magic, and didn't. I mean, the epitomy of Draconic lineage should be able to put up a better fight than any other animal falling for a basic woodland trap...

AMF is a bad strategy.

Noob dragons use it

Again, not really, your GM simply used it in a bad manner.

If he cast AMF and got right in your face, you'd have to either stand and fight (and be very ineffective at it), or move and risk getting eaten. You couldn't cast any spell while it was up, which means unless you were prepared with a Spellbane (not possible unless you were a level 20 Mystic Theurge with 3 levels in Cleric and the rest in Wizard, and even that is iffy), you had no other means to counter him.

There are other ways to do this, such as with the Silence spell on a trinket that he's wearing to augment his status, using Smoke to outright blind your entire party, and so on; but those are much easier to counter (Silent Spell Metamagic/Rod, disarm and remove the affected item, etc), and doesn't demonstrate the point that Anti-Magic > Magic > Everything Else.


And flying PCs?

Literally fall out of the field.

Yeah if your party is on the ground, maybe amf works. Otherwise it's a bad plan


MR. H wrote:

And flying PCs?

Literally fall out of the field.

Yeah if your party is on the ground, maybe amf works. Otherwise it's a bad plan

Again, not really. If they're melee, they can't get close to the dragon unless their flight is an EX ability, which means the AMF Dragon is practically impervious unless they use ranged attacks (or again, have EX flight, but even then as I've stated, it's still an uphill battle with no magic items or buff spells).

It's a bad plan if you're facing archers. But you said your party doesn't have archers, which means it's not that bad of a plan. Even then, there are some hard counters to Archers that the Dragon could use prior to AMF. Wind Wall is the most basic of examples.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
If the GM is playing to win the dragon will research the party and use magic items. He might even have backup, but most GM'S really want the player's to win so on some level they hold back. In other words I don't see a dragon losing too much if it's played like a PC.
If the GM is treating it like a game to win the PCs were doomed from the start regardless of level.

I will clarify. I'm not saying he will make it impossible to win. I am saying he will use the monster just like a PC would if he were running the monster.

As an example he will play as if a Player was controlling the dragon. I hope that clears things up.


Matthias W wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
If the GM is playing to win the dragon will research the party and use magic items. He might even have backup, but most GM'S really want the player's to win so on some level they hold back. In other words I don't see a dragon losing too much if it's played like a PC.
If the GM is treating it like a game to win the PCs were doomed from the start regardless of level.

Obviously if the GM is playing to kill the characters as her goal she can just have rocks fall them and kill them at any moment, but in context this clearly means "play intelligent hostile NPCs as if they are trying to win."

Thanks. That is what I meant.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
MR. H wrote:

And flying PCs?

Literally fall out of the field.

Yeah if your party is on the ground, maybe amf works. Otherwise it's a bad plan

Again, not really. If they're melee, they can't get close to the dragon unless their flight is an EX ability, which means the AMF Dragon is practically impervious unless they use ranged attacks (or again, have EX flight, but even then as I've stated, it's still an uphill battle with no magic items or buff spells).

It's a bad plan if you're facing archers. But you said your party doesn't have archers, which means it's not that bad of a plan. Even then, there are some hard counters to Archers that the Dragon could use prior to AMF. Wind Wall is the most basic of examples.

Back up range weapons still do damage.

Maybe your groups are just bad?

AMF dragon can barely melee and martials can then plink it down.


Okay but guys we are missing the more important question here:

Cavall wrote:
What's a lead tipi


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Trinam wrote:

Okay but guys we are missing the more important question here:

Cavall wrote:
What's a lead tipi

God wizzards' hats are actually shrink-itemed lead tepees that expand when you enter AMF thus taking xou out of line of effect


That sounds both remarkably stupid and like an incredibly good way to get lead poisoning.

I love it.


Trinam wrote:

That sounds both remarkably stupid and like an incredibly good way to get lead poisoning.

I love it.

It provides a handy explanation for why some high level Wizards are completely bonkers, too.

While looking at Lead Golems and the effects of their version of lead poisoning suggests that simply getting hit with Lesser Restoration every so often after pulling all-nighters or running into the hazards of being an adventurer would have the secondary effect of dealing with any accumulated lead.


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Making the wizard now dependent on a cleric to get by.

And so we have come full circle, divine supremacy what what.


Trinam wrote:

Making the wizard now dependent on a cleric to get by.

And so we have come full circle, divine supremacy what what.

only if the wizard doesn't have immunity to poisons or doesn't do spell research to make an arcane version of lesser restoration


Lady-J wrote:
Trinam wrote:

Making the wizard now dependent on a cleric to get by.

And so we have come full circle, divine supremacy what what.

only if the wizard doesn't have immunity to poisons or doesn't do spell research to make an arcane version of lesser restoration

Man what DM is going to let spell research replace the divine casting niche for a wizard? Thats just like not even pretending there's class separation.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Trinam wrote:

Making the wizard now dependent on a cleric to get by.

And so we have come full circle, divine supremacy what what.

only if the wizard doesn't have immunity to poisons or doesn't do spell research to make an arcane version of lesser restoration
Man what DM is going to let spell research replace the divine casting niche for a wizard? Thats just like not even pretending there's class separation.

they have to pay quite a bit of gold to do so, so i see no issue with letting them if they want to spend the time and resources to do so


I'd be careful about that. I hear them Abadar clerics get really mean when you start cutting into their bottom line.


To be fair I repeated the lead tepee here, I only heard about regular tepee before.


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So the conclusion of this thread is

Wizards are considered overpowered because ....

They wear miniaturised lead traffic cones and because the strongest strategy any BBEG can take is to try to make magic irrelevant. Allegedly.


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THAT AM SERIOUSLY JUST ASKING FOR SPELL SUNDER.

FOR REAL.


nighttree wrote:
Personally, I don't expect all classes/roles to have the same level of power. In a fantasy setting, Wizards and other spellcasters....at high levels.... are supposed to become more versatile and powerful 1/1 to any martial class. It's part of the genre....and it's perfectly fine.

In which fantasy setting? It's absolutely clear it's not true in all of the possible ones, so please provide examples.


"Hi BBEG and fellow AMF user, I'd like you to meet, just a sec. *goes rumaging about in his multidimensional holding device of incredulous size* Ah hah! my Golem playthings I created for the express purpose of turning anyone lame enough to think mere antimagic can slow me down into paste"


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Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

So the conclusion of this thread is

Wizards are considered overpowered because ....

They wear miniaturised lead traffic cones and because the strongest strategy any BBEG can take is to try to make magic irrelevant. Allegedly.

I would say wizards bust the game with planar binding, animate dead, and fabricate.

You know all those cool thing level 1-12 adventuring parties do? A level 12 wizard do all that by himself without even showing up.

Some examples of nonsense you can do:
1. Rewrite the map with stonewall+fabricate. Conjure castles and walls.
2. Create new capitals. Bind elementals to dig a ditch. Redirect a river so that the new castle you built is now also the center of trade for the reason.
3. Be an army. You have a lot of undead minions and when that isn't enough, you bind more elementals.
4. You don't need to be in your body. About to go to a tough fight after level 13? Limited wish contingent raise dead on your body. Hop to a new body via magic jar and planar binding + Geas (take no actions). Congrats now you have a form that is not only expendable, but also is one transformation spell away from being a good fighter. Now you can do whatever you want and not be blamed for it.
5. Get skills without skills. Disguise plus ventriloquism? +20 to that check. Invisibility + fly, another plus 20. Fly? +millions in effective acrobatics and climb.
6. Geas in general to get people to do what you want, provided you can immobilize them with one of the 50+ options at your disposal.

My issue with wizards is how quickly they get access to some really broken combos and how they get access to ALL OF THEM at no tactical cost. A sorcerer at-least loses in-combat flexibility or lots of gold (pages of spell knowledge) to do all the things I listed and is a level delayed (or more) in doing it. Magi can do most of what I said too, but they have to wait more levels and do not get access to even more broken tools at later levels like wizard.

And no, the GM does not always shut these things down. Many GMs like it when their players F with the world and only really get upset if in-combat wizard is too strong. (which is also progressively easier to do at higher levels without a character build)


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The argument that X is not overpowered because the GM has to ride herd on them extra hard or even play deliberately unfairly with them but not the others is kind of a poor one anyway.

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

So the conclusion of this thread is

Wizards are considered overpowered because ....

They wear miniaturised lead traffic cones and because the strongest strategy any BBEG can take is to try to make magic irrelevant. Allegedly.

No one has come up with a good counter to the argument that Wizards have more ability to influence a narrative than many other classes yet, so that's largely been ignored in favor of shooting the **** and rambling, as threads are wont to do.

Bluenose wrote:
In which fantasy setting? It's absolutely clear it's not true in all of the possible ones, so please provide examples.

The genre that is D&D and its successors. Aside from that interlude during 4e.


Coidzor wrote:
Bluenose wrote:
In which fantasy setting? It's absolutely clear it's not true in all of the possible ones, so please provide examples.
The genre that is D&D and its successors. Aside from that interlude during 4e.

That seems tautological.


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Why are wizards considered the most powerful class?

Because the forum community is made up of the most outspoken and belligerent gamers that have advanced that position over the life cycle the game by increasingly framing the debate in terms of only rules sourcebooks.

If you had _only_ rule books in a void, and had players that were playing the typical immoral anti-social sociopaths that these scenarios tend to postulate, then the wizard (and other casting classes) potentially have more overt options under the game rules at a given level that can resolve matters (assuming they have access to them) most easily or quickly.

Honestly, it's a really silly debate that you're better off ignoring. Most of these people are the same people that show up to a table with heavily mechanically twinked characters (spending hours building such a character, researching, combing though rule books for the most powerful combination) then show up on the forums complaining about how said thing is too powerful.

Ignore it. As long as you don't have an issue at your table you're better off leaving it that way.


MR. H wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
MR. H wrote:

And flying PCs?

Literally fall out of the field.

Yeah if your party is on the ground, maybe amf works. Otherwise it's a bad plan

Again, not really. If they're melee, they can't get close to the dragon unless their flight is an EX ability, which means the AMF Dragon is practically impervious unless they use ranged attacks (or again, have EX flight, but even then as I've stated, it's still an uphill battle with no magic items or buff spells).

It's a bad plan if you're facing archers. But you said your party doesn't have archers, which means it's not that bad of a plan. Even then, there are some hard counters to Archers that the Dragon could use prior to AMF. Wind Wall is the most basic of examples.

Back up range weapons still do damage.

Maybe your groups are just bad?

AMF dragon can barely melee and martials can then plink it down.

They might. The Dragon will have high DR that will apply to every ranged attack they make, and the best anti-counter they can muster is a 3 feat investment, which, unless they are a Brawler or pre-invested switch-hitter, will not have much luck emulating.

But also consider that if they are heavily Strength based, they will have significantly lower to-hit by relying on Dexterity to their attack rolls, and they are still lacking their weapon enhancements (which may not be much, but still matters). And if the Dragon is smart and uses the environment to his advantage (such as being in a smoky volcano, a foggy marsh, and so on), they won't get a very good line of fire on him, despite his size.

A Dragon going melee on their martials that only have their Dexterity and base armor/shield bonuses will be easy pickings; no ring of protection, AoNA, Cloak of Resistances, and so on, which means their meager to-hit is a lot more effective than you give credit for. 35 + Dice (minimum 37 for successful hits) against an enemy who might have ~30 AC on average (assuming high armor and equally high dexterity) is still practically auto-hits, and any enemy who invests in standard defenses via things like Fighting Defensively, Crane Style/Wing, and so on, will still be fairly easy to hit, missing rarely (anything less than a 5).

Your GM just played the dragon bad and fell for the most obvious of tricks. It's like I said, a Great Wyrm, the height of Dragonkind, falling for what amounts to a basic woodland trap, is a complete and utter joke of a battle. A dragon of that caliber will have tons of experience and intelligence to face against most every mortal being that, at the very least, the simplest of tricks wouldn't be fallen for.


@Peter Stewart

I have seen plenty of bad wizards.

I have also seen the world breakers in play.

Most good players don't go full throttle on their wizards because it isn't fun to break the game. Those same players are in their right to complain that the class is too strong for it to be fun. Having to artificially throttle yourself isn't very amusing.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Your GM just played the dragon bad and fell for the most obvious of tricks. It's like I said, a Great Wyrm, the height of Dragonkind, falling for what amounts to a basic woodland trap, is a complete and utter joke of a battle. A dragon of that caliber will have tons of experience and intelligence to face against most every mortal being that, at the very least, the simplest of tricks wouldn't be fallen for.

IDK what you assumed killed this dragon. But it was reach weapons and size buff spell effects. Which still work because melees fall out of range of AMF fields. Because of flying. So either you can "reach weapon" around AMF or you rule it differently and the Dragon literally can't touch anyone and their breathe weapon is negated by AMF. So no, martials don't lose AC because they can't be in the AMF.

IDK what this "woodland trap" is you speak of but you clearly haven't ran dragons against smart players in an open environment or you would know that AMF is the opposite of useful and just makes you easier to hit.

AMF is a bad strategy that only works against parties lacking basic high level buffs. (Like flight)

Are your high level parties not always flying??? Why are you assuming ground combat?

Edit: well the dragon did belly flop on to a martial to hit him into the ground once. I used a reach stone shape to carve out a cave and thin the stone under party members so they cracked and fell through. Still AMF Dragon is a straight terrible tactical decision.


Ah, the joys of being able to torture your group as a wizard who can do nearly anything!

Rogue: "I shall pick the lock!"
Wizard: "I cast Knock on it and open the door."
Rogue: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Fighter: "I will charge the enemy and slice him with my sword!"
Wizard: "I shall turn into a dragon and tapdance on him."
Fighter: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Cleric: "I shall heal our party to full health!"
Wizard: "S%&t. Um... I cast Silence on the cleric."
Cleric: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Rogue: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Fighter: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


Terrinam wrote:

Ah, the joys of being able to torture your group as a wizard who can do nearly anything!

Rogue: "I shall pick the lock!"
Wizard: "I cast Knock on it and open the door."
Rogue: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Fighter: "I will charge the enemy and slice him with my sword!"
Wizard: "I shall turn into a dragon and tapdance on him."
Fighter: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Cleric: "I shall heal our party to full health!"
Wizard: "S%&t. Um... I cast Silence on the cleric."
Cleric: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Rogue: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Fighter: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Wizards can summon and bind healers.


MR. H wrote:
Terrinam wrote:

Ah, the joys of being able to torture your group as a wizard who can do nearly anything!

Rogue: "I shall pick the lock!"
Wizard: "I cast Knock on it and open the door."
Rogue: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Fighter: "I will charge the enemy and slice him with my sword!"
Wizard: "I shall turn into a dragon and tapdance on him."
Fighter: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Cleric: "I shall heal our party to full health!"
Wizard: "S%&t. Um... I cast Silence on the cleric."
Cleric: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Rogue: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Fighter: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Wizards can summon and bind healers.

That ruins the joke :p

In all seriousness, the biggest weakness a wizard has is they need to prepare ahead of time. Which isn't anything near much of a weakness when you consider the sheer range of options they have for gathering information to help them prepare.


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Terrinam wrote:

Ah, the joys of being able to torture your group as a wizard who can do nearly anything!

Rogue: "I shall pick the lock!"
Wizard: "I cast Knock on it and open the door."
Rogue: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Fighter: "I will charge the enemy and slice him with my sword!"
Wizard: "I shall turn into a dragon and tapdance on him."
Fighter: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Cleric: "I shall heal our party to full health!"
Wizard: "S%&t. Um... I cast Silence on the cleric."
Cleric: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Rogue: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Fighter: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Um... Silence isn't a wizard spell. ;P


Dαedαlus wrote:
Terrinam wrote:

Ah, the joys of being able to torture your group as a wizard who can do nearly anything!

Rogue: "I shall pick the lock!"
Wizard: "I cast Knock on it and open the door."
Rogue: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Fighter: "I will charge the enemy and slice him with my sword!"
Wizard: "I shall turn into a dragon and tapdance on him."
Fighter: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Cleric: "I shall heal our party to full health!"
Wizard: "S%&t. Um... I cast Silence on the cleric."
Cleric: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Rogue: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Fighter: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Um... Silence isn't a wizard spell. ;P

There are ways to learn it as a wizard without relying on spell research. They're not worth the effort for the most part, but if you really want to be able to cast Silence on the cleric...


MR. H wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Your GM just played the dragon bad and fell for the most obvious of tricks. It's like I said, a Great Wyrm, the height of Dragonkind, falling for what amounts to a basic woodland trap, is a complete and utter joke of a battle. A dragon of that caliber will have tons of experience and intelligence to face against most every mortal being that, at the very least, the simplest of tricks wouldn't be fallen for.

IDK what you assumed killed this dragon. But it was reach weapons and size buff spell effects. Which still work because melees fall out of range of AMF fields. Because of flying. So either you can "reach weapon" around AMF or you rule it differently and the Dragon literally can't touch anyone and their breathe weapon is negated by AMF. So no, martials don't lose AC because they can't be in the AMF.

IDK what this "woodland trap" is you speak of but you clearly haven't ran dragons against smart players in an open environment or you would know that AMF is the opposite of useful and just makes you easier to hit.

AMF is a bad strategy that only works against parties lacking basic high level buffs. (Like flight)

Are your high level parties not always flying??? Why are you assuming ground combat?

Edit: well the dragon did belly flop on to a martial to hit him into the ground once. I used a reach stone shape to carve out a cave and thin the stone under party members so they cracked and fell through. Still AMF Dragon is a straight terrible tactical decision.

At best, you're bestowing Enlarge Person on them, since other size-increasing effects are personal only, and/or are identical in size increase. At worst, they might have access to those spells on their own, in which case they aren't technically martials.

Reach Weapons attacking the dragon still lose their magical properties since they're attacking an enemy in an AMF, which means DR still applies. Even then, if the Dragon does get in their face, no buffs or magic items, which makes them easy pickings based on numbers alone.

The Dragon can use its AMF as a "buffer" to force the martials to the ground without needing any check because of the logical chain of events linking magical flight to AMF's suppression rules; it has plenty of movement and skill to isolate a given martial, meaning unless the martials are thousands of feet above any solid ground (which the Dragon could just make them take 20D6 falling damage for no reason and laugh), it will serve as a decent Divide and Conquer tactic.

And how does using an AMF make them easier to hit? Their base AC is 39, no buffs or items, and only going higher based on Mage Armor, Shield, and other similar buffs that they will most likely cast pre-fight as a pre-caution. The point is that the PCs receive more benefits to their abilities based on magic items and spells than a Dragon does, which means the Dragon will have a much easier time facing their attributes by effectively nullifying their magic items and spells instead of trying to beat them at an arms race that he is severely disadvantaged from by simply having spells and not magic items as well. (Yes, he might access his hoard of trinkets for items if he's desperate, but each Dragon's hoard is different, and I wouldn't count on a lot of those items because, well...Dragon.)

Honestly, I assumed ground combat because it gives you guys a better advantage of sticking together and focus-firing the Dragon when it comes time. You can fly if you want, but I honestly think giving the Dragon an easier opportunity to split your party up and conquer them one by one isn't a great tactic, especially with the above "buffer" option he might implement for laughs.

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