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Hey everyone,
While browsing the wondrous items page the other day, I came across the Padma Blossom, which suppresses all fear effects and the confused, dazed, or stunned conditions at the cost of also suppressing all your moral bonuses and taking up one of your hands.
I showed this item to my DM, who instantly decided to ban it. Now, that is his decision and I respect it, but it made me ask myself: is this item really that overpowered for its price (8 000gp)?
In my case, maybe it is overpowered because I have no easy way of getting moral bonuses and have a free hand anyway. On the other hand, my DM's argument was that, since it is such a cheap item, it would be easy for any NPC who meets the same requirements to take it. This could obviously make any NPC much tougher.
Your thoughts? (Thank you in advance!)
It all depends on how often those conditions come up for your game like all things it is relative. i can see it being over powered on a psychic caster but that is it. talk with your dm and find out how often those conditions would pop up, at the least some thought should be given to how often it would actually be useful. On the other hand i can see it being banned for a different reason. it is from a module and is made for use in that module.
My character is indeed a psychic caster so... you got me haha.
I just wanted a second opinion from the Paizo community to confirm whether it was overpowered or not. I did not know it came from a module; maybe that explains why it seems unusually cheap for its effects.
To be honest, it seems pretty undercost, since it gives multiple immunities, at the expense of losing morale bonuses.
Immune to Confusion and stun is ridiculous for only 8k.
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It could very well be sundered or disarmed, etc. It only suppresses the effects, so as soon as it's no longer in hand...
It could very well be sundered or disarmed, etc. It only suppresses the effects, so as soon as it's no longer in hand...
Yeah, but that requires both a failed save and a successful combat maneuver. If you can survive either, or if you're able to escape melee before someone can use a combat maneuver on you, you're safe.
@Dragonborn: Maybe not. 'This perfect lotus flower formed from pink jade offers purity of mind and spiritual calm.' isn't quite the same as emotionless.
The Padma Blossom is very overpowered. Fear immunity is powerful, stun immunity is powerful, daze immunity may not exist anywhere else in the game, and confusion immunity is pretty useful. The downsides aren't anywhere close to balancing all of that.
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It could very well be sundered or disarmed, etc. It only suppresses the effects, so as soon as it's no longer in hand...So you keep it on a chain around your neck. It has weight "-", meaning it's less than half a pound, so you can pretty clearly carry it out of sight.
And while obviously sundering or whatever would end the protective effect, it wouldn't cause all the cumulative emotions to come rushing back (though it's a fun idea). I mean, losing a piece of armor doesn't cause you to retroactively gain all the injuries it ever protected you from.
Doug M.
It specifically says it has to be grasped to confer it’s bonuses.
And that’s actually what suppresses mean, rather than removes (your armor example is a false equivalence as well).
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It does seem very useful for a psychic caster, but I think it's more in the "slightly increase the item's cost" box than the "BAN" box.
I don't see the confused or dazed conditions much, and stunned only slightly more often. Fear immunity is pretty handy, but there are other ways to deal with fear - including the 1st level spell Remove Fear.
In fact, for non-psychic characters I think it's a little pricey for what it does.
The downsides aren't anywhere close to balancing all of that.
Using up a hand slot is a pretty big downside. Do you fight with a greatsword? Two daggers? Bow and arrows? Then this item is unlikely to be good value. Caster? You probably want to keep one hand free for a metamagic rod and the other for somatic components.
So it's a really good item, for a small subset of possible builds.
Plasma blossom sounds like a super attack in a cheesy anime.
The downsides aren't anywhere close to balancing all of that.Using up a hand slot is a pretty big downside. Do you fight with a greatsword? Two daggers? Bow and arrows? Then this item is unlikely to be good value. Caster? You probably want to keep one hand free for a metamagic rod and the other for somatic components.
So it's a really good item, for a small subset of possible builds.
That small subset being, basically every psychic caster. If rods of metamagic got their price cut in half it wouldn't somehow be less OP because a fighter didn't want one.
It sounds like something that'd be super annoying for opponents to carry as it nullifies so many tactics one might use should DPR not interest you.
On a PC I don't know how broken it would be, it would be nice for a Psychic or similar, would be almost entirely dictated by the tactics the GM wished to use.
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I'd just rule that the effect of the item is a non-harmless [emotion] effect (after all, it is based on Calm Emotions and also suppresses morale bonuses without distinction), and suddenly it's entirely useless for psychic casters.
The downsides aren't anywhere close to balancing all of that.Using up a hand slot is a pretty big downside. Do you fight with a greatsword? Two daggers? Bow and arrows? Then this item is unlikely to be good value. Caster? You probably want to keep one hand free for a metamagic rod and the other for somatic components.
So it's a really good item, for a small subset of possible builds.
Except that psychic casters don't need to worry about somatic components at all.
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Yeah, lack of somatic components makes it good for psychic types with caster builds - though psychic casting classes with warrior builds are still probably going to have their hands full.
Which is what makes the downsides a really big deal for everyone other than the characters that benefit from it most.
That small subset being, basically every psychic caster. If rods of metamagic got their price cut in half it wouldn't somehow be less OP because a fighter didn't want one.The downsides aren't anywhere close to balancing all of that.Using up a hand slot is a pretty big downside. Do you fight with a greatsword? Two daggers? Bow and arrows? Then this item is unlikely to be good value. Caster? You probably want to keep one hand free for a metamagic rod and the other for somatic components.
So it's a really good item, for a small subset of possible builds.
Which is the argument for increasing this item's price a little. On the other hand, it was designed before the psychic classes and thus is intended to be something that non-psychic characters might want.
Kind of a shame that it's hard to balance in a way that it's affordable for non-psychics but also not a no-brainer for psychics.
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It's a great value for psychic casters, but it also makes them playable at all and it's not very great for anyone else.
I'd leave it as is.
I uh...don't know what you're talking about here.
There are very few things that legitimately shut down a psychic caster. A Psychic (the class) shuts down most problems once they hit 8th level and can take Intellect Fortress I, a spell with no emotion component (just a thought component, which is meaningless on a swift action spell) that removes all conditions that normally stop you. Prior to that, Logical Remove Fear or a spring-loaded wrist sheath with a Remove Fear potion will cover you. In my 20 level career, I can tell you definitively that these situations did not come up frequently. When they did arise, I was prepared, as was the Mesmerist that made it to 20 with me. In fact, the ONLY time I ever found myself not casting something because of emotion components, it was an RP decision and not a condition applied to me.
Spiritualists, Mesmerists, Mediums, and Occultists care less about their casting and have numerous abilities that are not shut off. The Mesmerist pretty much stops caring about most of these problems as they level due to Touch Treatment, as well.
I had never heard of this item prior to today. It's certainly not required to make psychic casters viable.
Actually - if you make the save you generally know what it was. It's when you fail that your character may not know they've been charmed etc.
Actually - if you make the save you generally know what it was. It's when you fail that your character may not know they've been charmed etc.
Yes and no. If you make the check, you get a knowledge check to identify the effect if you bother with that, you don't necessarily know what hit you.
But if you are affected by confusion, you'll definitely know (even in-character, though possibly only after it wears off).
Eh, you said "run into", which sounds more like "encountered creatures able to cause" than "been affected by". At least to me, but perception varies.
Language. Isn't it fun?
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I'd read "run into" as "had someone in the party targeted by an effect that can cause."
A balor might have Power Word Stun as a spell-like ability, but if it never actually uses that SLA I wouldn't say that I'd run into stunning in that encounter.
Though in this specific case, "been personally affected by" is actually more relevant, since it's only if you've been affected by a condition that the Padma Blossom's effect would be useful.
As I said. Perception varies.
From "encountered an enemy that could cause..." over "had a party member targeted by..." over either "had my character targeted by..." or "had a party member affected by" up until "have had a character affected by..."
All are possible valid interpretations of "have run into...".
Which, in the end, just means "have(n't) run into..." means nothing without further specifications or context.
Which Lady-J has provided by now with "haven't been affected by now".
I'm currently playing in an undead campaign - fear is pretty common, and I'm pretty sure the group already encountered one will save with "afraid if failed, but still shaken on success" results. Which resulted in our monk running away.
(We let her run. It was just a haunt, and no one else could catch up to her anyway.
My Mesmerist just touch treated herself as a swift action, because she eats fear for breakfast.)
...Predictable threadjack aside: Yeah, it's a pretty sweet deal, especially for a character who doesn't suffer too much from losing the use of a hand.
It's a great value for psychic casters, but it also makes them playable at all and it's not very great for anyone else.
I'd leave it as is.
I uh...don't know what you're talking about here.
There are very few things that legitimately shut down a psychic caster. A Psychic (the class) shuts down most problems once they hit 8th level and can take Intellect Fortress I, a spell with no emotion component (just a thought component, which is meaningless on a swift action spell) that removes all conditions that normally stop you. Prior to that, Logical Remove Fear or a spring-loaded wrist sheath with a Remove Fear potion will cover you. In my 20 level career, I can tell you definitively that these situations did not come up frequently. When they did arise, I was prepared, as was the Mesmerist that made it to 20 with me. In fact, the ONLY time I ever found myself not casting something because of emotion components, it was an RP decision and not a condition applied to me.
Spiritualists, Mesmerists, Mediums, and Occultists care less about their casting and have numerous abilities that are not shut off. The Mesmerist pretty much stops caring about most of these problems as they level due to Touch Treatment, as well.
I had never heard of this item prior to today. It's certainly not required to make psychic casters viable.
It's also worth noting that every single Psychic Caster has a good Will Save, so a Psychic Caster getting shut down by something they can make a Will save against is like a Fighter getting shut down by something they can make a Fort save against or a Rogue getting shut down by something they can make a Reflex save against.
In my experience, more worrisome than fear effects for Psychic Casters is "enemies that use the demoralize action in combat", as bonuses to Intimidate scale much faster than the DC to intimidate and there's very little you can take in order to protect yourself from it.
I think maybe if you took stun off it would be more balanced.
Or limited use against such effects each day. I'm not sure this is a tricky one to balance.
Psychics aside (I know nothing about them), it seems pretty meh to me too. The people who need it are those with weak Will saves, ie martials. And almost all of those will want to use both hands.
I feel like the bright line standard though is whether this enemy would choose to attempt the demoralize action without knowledge of who is in the party and how the game mechanics work. If they would, then it's fair game to do it to psychic casters. If they wouldn't then you shouldn't just because there's a psychic around.
I do highly recommend all of your future psychics be adopted by ifrits because anything that raises the intimidate DC is your friend.
With ordinary intimidate (not dazzling display) do you think the intimidator would need to see their target to demoralize them? It doesn't specify exactly.
There are very few things that legitimately shut down a psychic caster.Possible Cabbage said it best. Intimidate checks are incredibly easy to succeed at and will utterly shut you down as a psychic caster.
Yeah, sure you can burn spell slots after the fact to remove it, but a fourth level spell slot to be able to still take your turn isn't exactly a trivial cost, especially not compared to how easy it is to demoralize a psychic caster.
I'm glad you never had to deal with that misery while leveling up your psychic, but that's more indicative of your GM being nice than the class being untouchable.
A lot of stock NPCs don't have large enough intimidate modifiers such that this is considered a viable tactic. This was certainly the case in PFS scenarios. Additionally, some disciplines have defenses against fear effects specifically - abomination and tranquility come to mind immediately. For me, as psychedelia, once I hit 13, if you got in range to intimidate me, you had to make a very difficult save or be confused and, since I needed to be able to see and hear you for that intimidate, there was a 75% chance of you no longer existing or being a credible threat by the time you wanted to do that intimidate.
With that said, I have never said the class is untouchable. It's balanced by this particular concern. It's just like how wizards are balanced by requiring spellbooks for prep and spell component pouches to cast. Do you know how many component pouches I've sundered on other characters? Lemme tell ya, that DC isn't too hot either. And let's not even get into the rampant thievery of spellbooks in some campaigns.