Padma Blossom: Overpowered?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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Hey everyone,

While browsing the wondrous items page the other day, I came across the Padma Blossom, which suppresses all fear effects and the confused, dazed, or stunned conditions at the cost of also suppressing all your moral bonuses and taking up one of your hands.

I showed this item to my DM, who instantly decided to ban it. Now, that is his decision and I respect it, but it made me ask myself: is this item really that overpowered for its price (8 000gp)?

In my case, maybe it is overpowered because I have no easy way of getting moral bonuses and have a free hand anyway. On the other hand, my DM's argument was that, since it is such a cheap item, it would be easy for any NPC who meets the same requirements to take it. This could obviously make any NPC much tougher.

Your thoughts? (Thank you in advance!)


It all depends on how often those conditions come up for your game like all things it is relative. i can see it being over powered on a psychic caster but that is it. talk with your dm and find out how often those conditions would pop up, at the least some thought should be given to how often it would actually be useful. On the other hand i can see it being banned for a different reason. it is from a module and is made for use in that module.


My character is indeed a psychic caster so... you got me haha.

I just wanted a second opinion from the Paizo community to confirm whether it was overpowered or not. I did not know it came from a module; maybe that explains why it seems unusually cheap for its effects.


nope its kina meh, if it didnt block moral bonuses i wouldn't mind paying the 8k gold for it but with the moral bonus blocking i wouldn't even craft it for 4k


To be honest, it seems pretty undercost, since it gives multiple immunities, at the expense of losing morale bonuses.

Immune to Confusion and stun is ridiculous for only 8k.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

It could very well be sundered or disarmed, etc. It only suppresses the effects, so as soon as it's no longer in hand...

Shadow Lodge

Id also wager if moral is gone your emotions are being effected, and we know what that does to psychic casting...


LoudKid wrote:
It could very well be sundered or disarmed, etc. It only suppresses the effects, so as soon as it's no longer in hand...

Yeah, but that requires both a failed save and a successful combat maneuver. If you can survive either, or if you're able to escape melee before someone can use a combat maneuver on you, you're safe.

@Dragonborn: Maybe not. 'This perfect lotus flower formed from pink jade offers purity of mind and spiritual calm.' isn't quite the same as emotionless.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Id also wager if moral is gone your emotions are being effected, and we know what that does to psychic casting...

immunity to moral effects does not mean no emotion


LoudKid wrote:
It could very well be sundered or disarmed, etc. It only suppresses the effects, so as soon as it's no longer in hand...

So you keep it on a chain around your neck. It has weight "-", meaning it's less than half a pound, so you can pretty clearly carry it out of sight.

And while obviously sundering or whatever would end the protective effect, it wouldn't cause all the cumulative emotions to come rushing back (though it's a fun idea). I mean, losing a piece of armor doesn't cause you to retroactively gain all the injuries it ever protected you from.

Doug M.


This came up in the context of the Demoniac. The Demoniac has the cool Energumen power*, which gives you a stat boost for a few rounds at the cost of being Confused until you can make a DC 25 Will save. This is reasonable and balanced. The Padma Blossom removes the balancing.

In a campaign without psychic casters or demoniacs, I'd say it's a bit OP for its cost but not ridiculous. But if either of these are in play, heck no. Note that the PB was created long before psychic casters were a thing, so it's not too surprising that

*Sadly, this is almost the only cool thing about the Demoniac.

Doug M.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

This came up in the context of the Demoniac. The Demoniac has the cool Energumen power*, which gives you a stat boost for a few rounds at the cost of being Confused until you can make a DC 25 Will save. This is reasonable and balanced. The Padma Blossom removes the balancing.

In a campaign without psychic casters or demoniacs, I'd say it's a bit OP for its cost but not ridiculous. But if either of these are in play, heck no. Note that the PB was created long before psychic casters were a thing, so it's not too surprising that

*Sadly, this is almost the only cool thing about the Demoniac.

Doug M.

i was really hoping that was an item and that it was more then once per day :(


The Padma Blossom is very overpowered. Fear immunity is powerful, stun immunity is powerful, daze immunity may not exist anywhere else in the game, and confusion immunity is pretty useful. The downsides aren't anywhere close to balancing all of that.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
LoudKid wrote:
It could very well be sundered or disarmed, etc. It only suppresses the effects, so as soon as it's no longer in hand...

So you keep it on a chain around your neck. It has weight "-", meaning it's less than half a pound, so you can pretty clearly carry it out of sight.

And while obviously sundering or whatever would end the protective effect, it wouldn't cause all the cumulative emotions to come rushing back (though it's a fun idea). I mean, losing a piece of armor doesn't cause you to retroactively gain all the injuries it ever protected you from.

Doug M.

It specifically says it has to be grasped to confer it’s bonuses.

And that’s actually what suppresses mean, rather than removes (your armor example is a false equivalence as well).


Okay, fair enough, you grasp it. You're a squish caster, so you shouldn't be anywhere near anything that can sunder or disarm. I mean, yeah it can happen, but it's no more likely than with a wand or staff or whatever. "It could be sundered" is not usually an argument we hear in discussing whether a rod or something is OP.

"Suppress" -- maybe we're talking past each other? You can't be affected while you're grasping the Blossom. Lose it, and whatever would be affecting you right now, affects you normally. But it's not like the Fear spell from last week suddenly catches up with you.

Anyway. I think there's a pretty clear consensus emerging: it was kinda OP to begin with, but it's really OP if you bring psychic casters into the mix.

Doug M.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Okay I see what you mean now, yeah, it wouldn’t put effects in stasis, they still have their time limit, but if you stopped grasping it within the time limit you’d be affected.

I do agree it is very f$$+ing cheap for what all it does.

Shadow Lodge

It does seem very useful for a psychic caster, but I think it's more in the "slightly increase the item's cost" box than the "BAN" box.

I don't see the confused or dazed conditions much, and stunned only slightly more often. Fear immunity is pretty handy, but there are other ways to deal with fear - including the 1st level spell Remove Fear.

In fact, for non-psychic characters I think it's a little pricey for what it does.


i can count on 1 hand the amount of times i've run into those status effects while playing so unless your gm is going out of their way to hit you with things that the item blocks anyway just so you get some use out of it, its a pretty useless item


Xenocrat wrote:
The downsides aren't anywhere close to balancing all of that.

Using up a hand slot is a pretty big downside. Do you fight with a greatsword? Two daggers? Bow and arrows? Then this item is unlikely to be good value. Caster? You probably want to keep one hand free for a metamagic rod and the other for somatic components.

So it's a really good item, for a small subset of possible builds.


Plasma blossom sounds like a super attack in a cheesy anime.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
The downsides aren't anywhere close to balancing all of that.

Using up a hand slot is a pretty big downside. Do you fight with a greatsword? Two daggers? Bow and arrows? Then this item is unlikely to be good value. Caster? You probably want to keep one hand free for a metamagic rod and the other for somatic components.

So it's a really good item, for a small subset of possible builds.

That small subset being, basically every psychic caster. If rods of metamagic got their price cut in half it wouldn't somehow be less OP because a fighter didn't want one.


It sounds like something that'd be super annoying for opponents to carry as it nullifies so many tactics one might use should DPR not interest you.

On a PC I don't know how broken it would be, it would be nice for a Psychic or similar, would be almost entirely dictated by the tactics the GM wished to use.


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I'd just rule that the effect of the item is a non-harmless [emotion] effect (after all, it is based on Calm Emotions and also suppresses morale bonuses without distinction), and suddenly it's entirely useless for psychic casters.


Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
I'd just rule that the effect of the item is a non-harmless [emotion] effect (after all, it is based on Calm Emotions and also suppresses morale bonuses without distinction), and suddenly it's entirely useless for psychic casters.

so make it useless for everyone? cuz the only people its currently viable for is psychic casters


Matthew Downie wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
The downsides aren't anywhere close to balancing all of that.

Using up a hand slot is a pretty big downside. Do you fight with a greatsword? Two daggers? Bow and arrows? Then this item is unlikely to be good value. Caster? You probably want to keep one hand free for a metamagic rod and the other for somatic components.

So it's a really good item, for a small subset of possible builds.

Except that psychic casters don't need to worry about somatic components at all.


It's a great value for psychic casters, but it also makes them playable at all and it's not very great for anyone else.

I'd leave it as is.

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, lack of somatic components makes it good for psychic types with caster builds - though psychic casting classes with warrior builds are still probably going to have their hands full.

Which is what makes the downsides a really big deal for everyone other than the characters that benefit from it most.

Ryan Freire wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
The downsides aren't anywhere close to balancing all of that.

Using up a hand slot is a pretty big downside. Do you fight with a greatsword? Two daggers? Bow and arrows? Then this item is unlikely to be good value. Caster? You probably want to keep one hand free for a metamagic rod and the other for somatic components.

So it's a really good item, for a small subset of possible builds.

That small subset being, basically every psychic caster. If rods of metamagic got their price cut in half it wouldn't somehow be less OP because a fighter didn't want one.

Which is the argument for increasing this item's price a little. On the other hand, it was designed before the psychic classes and thus is intended to be something that non-psychic characters might want.

Kind of a shame that it's hard to balance in a way that it's affordable for non-psychics but also not a no-brainer for psychics.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
swoosh wrote:

It's a great value for psychic casters, but it also makes them playable at all and it's not very great for anyone else.

I'd leave it as is.

I uh...don't know what you're talking about here.

There are very few things that legitimately shut down a psychic caster. A Psychic (the class) shuts down most problems once they hit 8th level and can take Intellect Fortress I, a spell with no emotion component (just a thought component, which is meaningless on a swift action spell) that removes all conditions that normally stop you. Prior to that, Logical Remove Fear or a spring-loaded wrist sheath with a Remove Fear potion will cover you. In my 20 level career, I can tell you definitively that these situations did not come up frequently. When they did arise, I was prepared, as was the Mesmerist that made it to 20 with me. In fact, the ONLY time I ever found myself not casting something because of emotion components, it was an RP decision and not a condition applied to me.

Spiritualists, Mesmerists, Mediums, and Occultists care less about their casting and have numerous abilities that are not shut off. The Mesmerist pretty much stops caring about most of these problems as they level due to Touch Treatment, as well.

I had never heard of this item prior to today. It's certainly not required to make psychic casters viable.


Lady-J wrote:
i can count on 1 hand the amount of times i've run into those status effects while playing so unless your gm is going out of their way to hit you with things that the item blocks anyway just so you get some use out of it, its a pretty useless item

If you have barely ever encountered confusion, stun or fear then you cannot have played as much as you claim to or you have never got past about level 3. Daze is far less common, stun is relatively rare but confusion and fear effects are all over the place.


andreww wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
i can count on 1 hand the amount of times i've run into those status effects while playing so unless your gm is going out of their way to hit you with things that the item blocks anyway just so you get some use out of it, its a pretty useless item
If you have barely ever encountered confusion, stun or fear then you cannot have played as much as you claim to or you have never got past about level 3. Daze is far less common, stun is relatively rare but confusion and fear effects are all over the place.

if you save vs an effect you generally don't get to find out what that effect was, i for one ensure that my will save is as high as it can possibly go


So, I decided to see how often these things come up in monster stat blocks, limiting myself just to Bestiary 1:

Confusion:
SLA or Spell: Glabrezu, Devourer, various Dragons, Intellect Devourer, Pixie,
Other source: Id Ooze, Gibbering Mouther, Shoggoth

Stun:
SLA or Spell: Planetar, Balor, Glabrezu, Pit Fiend, Sphinx
Other source: Astral Deva, Vrock, Horned Devil, Ankylosaurus, Electric Eel, Nymph

Fear effects:
SLA or Spell: Dretch, Quasit, Shadow Demon, Erinyes, various Dragons, Drow Noble, Satyr, Sphinx
Other source: Ghaele Azata, Cloaker, Barbed Devil, Bone Devil, Horned Devil, Ice Devil, Pit Fiend, Dragons. Kyton, Lich, Giant Frilled Lizard, Mummies, Sea Hag, Yeth Hound, Yeti, Boggard, Ghost, Spectre

That's just from a quick skim of Bestiary 1. Looks like these conditions are all over the place and that's before you get to the issue that confusion and fear effects both crop up as level 1 spells.


Lady-J wrote:
andreww wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
i can count on 1 hand the amount of times i've run into those status effects while playing so unless your gm is going out of their way to hit you with things that the item blocks anyway just so you get some use out of it, its a pretty useless item
If you have barely ever encountered confusion, stun or fear then you cannot have played as much as you claim to or you have never got past about level 3. Daze is far less common, stun is relatively rare but confusion and fear effects are all over the place.
if you save vs an effect you generally don't get to find out what that effect was, i for one ensure that my will save is as high as it can possibly go

Except that wasn't what you said now was it.


Actually - if you make the save you generally know what it was. It's when you fail that your character may not know they've been charmed etc.


avr wrote:
Actually - if you make the save you generally know what it was. It's when you fail that your character may not know they've been charmed etc.

Yes and no. If you make the check, you get a knowledge check to identify the effect if you bother with that, you don't necessarily know what hit you.

But if you are affected by confusion, you'll definitely know (even in-character, though possibly only after it wears off).


andreww wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
andreww wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
i can count on 1 hand the amount of times i've run into those status effects while playing so unless your gm is going out of their way to hit you with things that the item blocks anyway just so you get some use out of it, its a pretty useless item
If you have barely ever encountered confusion, stun or fear then you cannot have played as much as you claim to or you have never got past about level 3. Daze is far less common, stun is relatively rare but confusion and fear effects are all over the place.
if you save vs an effect you generally don't get to find out what that effect was, i for one ensure that my will save is as high as it can possibly go

Except that wasn't what you said now was it.

my 2nd statement does not change what i said in my 1st statement and i stand by my 1st statement i can count on 1 hand how many times i've been effected by a fear,stun, confusion or daze effect


Eh, you said "run into", which sounds more like "encountered creatures able to cause" than "been affected by". At least to me, but perception varies.

Language. Isn't it fun?

Shadow Lodge

I'd read "run into" as "had someone in the party targeted by an effect that can cause."

A balor might have Power Word Stun as a spell-like ability, but if it never actually uses that SLA I wouldn't say that I'd run into stunning in that encounter.

Though in this specific case, "been personally affected by" is actually more relevant, since it's only if you've been affected by a condition that the Padma Blossom's effect would be useful.


As I said. Perception varies.

From "encountered an enemy that could cause..." over "had a party member targeted by..." over either "had my character targeted by..." or "had a party member affected by" up until "have had a character affected by..."

All are possible valid interpretations of "have run into...".
Which, in the end, just means "have(n't) run into..." means nothing without further specifications or context.

Which Lady-J has provided by now with "haven't been affected by now".

I'm currently playing in an undead campaign - fear is pretty common, and I'm pretty sure the group already encountered one will save with "afraid if failed, but still shaken on success" results. Which resulted in our monk running away.

(We let her run. It was just a haunt, and no one else could catch up to her anyway.
My Mesmerist just touch treated herself as a swift action, because she eats fear for breakfast.)


...Predictable threadjack aside: Yeah, it's a pretty sweet deal, especially for a character who doesn't suffer too much from losing the use of a hand.


Serisan wrote:
swoosh wrote:

It's a great value for psychic casters, but it also makes them playable at all and it's not very great for anyone else.

I'd leave it as is.

I uh...don't know what you're talking about here.

There are very few things that legitimately shut down a psychic caster. A Psychic (the class) shuts down most problems once they hit 8th level and can take Intellect Fortress I, a spell with no emotion component (just a thought component, which is meaningless on a swift action spell) that removes all conditions that normally stop you. Prior to that, Logical Remove Fear or a spring-loaded wrist sheath with a Remove Fear potion will cover you. In my 20 level career, I can tell you definitively that these situations did not come up frequently. When they did arise, I was prepared, as was the Mesmerist that made it to 20 with me. In fact, the ONLY time I ever found myself not casting something because of emotion components, it was an RP decision and not a condition applied to me.

Spiritualists, Mesmerists, Mediums, and Occultists care less about their casting and have numerous abilities that are not shut off. The Mesmerist pretty much stops caring about most of these problems as they level due to Touch Treatment, as well.

I had never heard of this item prior to today. It's certainly not required to make psychic casters viable.

It's also worth noting that every single Psychic Caster has a good Will Save, so a Psychic Caster getting shut down by something they can make a Will save against is like a Fighter getting shut down by something they can make a Fort save against or a Rogue getting shut down by something they can make a Reflex save against.

In my experience, more worrisome than fear effects for Psychic Casters is "enemies that use the demoralize action in combat", as bonuses to Intimidate scale much faster than the DC to intimidate and there's very little you can take in order to protect yourself from it.


andreww wrote:
Looks like these conditions are all over the place and that's before you get to the issue that confusion and fear effects both crop up as level 1 spells.

On the contrary, you've shown that in a Bestiary 1 only game, it is very easy to run a full campaign and never run into Confusion or Stun at all, while you have shown that fear is relatively plentiful in various categories of baddies.


I think maybe if you took stun off it would be more balanced.

Or limited use against such effects each day. I'm not sure this is a tricky one to balance.


the Padma Blossom is a mixed bag... I agree that it's specific to that Module and a GM has to consider if it's a good fit for his setting.
It is PFS legal which is a thumbs up for game balance.

The price is low but it does affect combat and essentially hinders full out attacks. It prevents double handed weapons, off hand weapons and their attacks, shield usage in the off hand, bow usage, fighting styles that forbid anything in the off hand, and adds a penalty to crossbow usage. Having a filled hand is circumstantial as sometimes it will be a hindrance. Somatic components require one free hand.

It is clearly a defensive item and Calm Emotions is going to slow combat.

Sundering the item seems easy as I'd guess it has hardness:(1 to 8) and HP:1 to 2.


Psychics aside (I know nothing about them), it seems pretty meh to me too. The people who need it are those with weak Will saves, ie martials. And almost all of those will want to use both hands.

Dark Archive

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blahpers wrote:
...Predictable threadjack aside: Yeah, it's a pretty sweet deal, especially for a character who doesn't suffer too much from losing the use of a hand.

Hey, I found a use for my vestigial extra limb / prehensile tail! :)


Serisan wrote:


There are very few things that legitimately shut down a psychic caster.

Possible Cabbage said it best. Intimidate checks are incredibly easy to succeed at and will utterly shut you down as a psychic caster.

Yeah, sure you can burn spell slots after the fact to remove it, but a fourth level spell slot to be able to still take your turn isn't exactly a trivial cost, especially not compared to how easy it is to demoralize a psychic caster.

I'm glad you never had to deal with that misery while leveling up your psychic, but that's more indicative of your GM being nice than the class being untouchable.


I feel like the bright line standard though is whether this enemy would choose to attempt the demoralize action without knowledge of who is in the party and how the game mechanics work. If they would, then it's fair game to do it to psychic casters. If they wouldn't then you shouldn't just because there's a psychic around.

I do highly recommend all of your future psychics be adopted by ifrits because anything that raises the intimidate DC is your friend.


With ordinary intimidate (not dazzling display) do you think the intimidator would need to see their target to demoralize them? It doesn't specify exactly.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
swoosh wrote:
Serisan wrote:


There are very few things that legitimately shut down a psychic caster.

Possible Cabbage said it best. Intimidate checks are incredibly easy to succeed at and will utterly shut you down as a psychic caster.

Yeah, sure you can burn spell slots after the fact to remove it, but a fourth level spell slot to be able to still take your turn isn't exactly a trivial cost, especially not compared to how easy it is to demoralize a psychic caster.

I'm glad you never had to deal with that misery while leveling up your psychic, but that's more indicative of your GM being nice than the class being untouchable.

A lot of stock NPCs don't have large enough intimidate modifiers such that this is considered a viable tactic. This was certainly the case in PFS scenarios. Additionally, some disciplines have defenses against fear effects specifically - abomination and tranquility come to mind immediately. For me, as psychedelia, once I hit 13, if you got in range to intimidate me, you had to make a very difficult save or be confused and, since I needed to be able to see and hear you for that intimidate, there was a 75% chance of you no longer existing or being a credible threat by the time you wanted to do that intimidate.

With that said, I have never said the class is untouchable. It's balanced by this particular concern. It's just like how wizards are balanced by requiring spellbooks for prep and spell component pouches to cast. Do you know how many component pouches I've sundered on other characters? Lemme tell ya, that DC isn't too hot either. And let's not even get into the rampant thievery of spellbooks in some campaigns.

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