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Personally my changes to the class would be to allow the Shifter to choose any aspect but you also get the Major Aspect if it's one of your chosen aspects also change the Wild Shape to match the various ______ Shaman Druid archetypes, you count as your level for Wild Shaping into your chosen aspects, level -2 if it isn't one of your chosen aspects
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The druid with a 13 wisdom can just pop off greater magic fangs.
DR with their natural attacks (but not DR Magic or Alignment). So I guess advantage Shifter when gearless?
That only bypasses DR/magic, even with a +5 bonus. It also requires a divine focus, so the Druid will need to get theirs back first, or harvest a new sprig of holly.
First, they should gain an aspect every two levels (for a total of 10 at level 19. Two levels is enough to learn the nuances of each new form gained.
Second, while wild shaped they should be able to switch from one aspect to another without spending wildshape uses.
Third, let the ability emulate beast shape III (at 6th) IV (at 8th) and Magical Beast Shape (at 10th). However, they can still only take the forms of the Aspects they have, but may use chimeric aspect to pick a single ability from the Beast Shape special ability menu, and/or the size increases/decreases. Second and third chimeric aspect lets them choose additional abilities to have active simultaneously. Also move chimeric aspect down to 6th, 9th, 14th and 17th.
This just makes me think it would have been better as a more direct copy of the Harrow Medium, instead of being an odd crossover between the normal Medium and the Druid.
That only bypasses DR/magic, even with a +5 bonus. It also requires a divine focus, so the Druid will need to get theirs back first, or harvest a new sprig of holly.
Or have it with them when they transform.
"Yeah look, the wolfs completely naked, I ain't searching it any further"
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That only bypasses DR/magic, even with a +5 bonus. It also requires a divine focus, so the Druid will need to get theirs back first, or harvest a new sprig of holly.Or have it with them when they transform.
"Yeah look, the wolfs completely naked, I ain't searching it any further"
Just going off the premise, and it wouldn’t bypass much DR. That said, Druid wins vs. DR/magic, the one thing Shifter doesn’t get.
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So, is it just me or does the gag order in the product thread for Ultimate Wilderness feel like damage control so that the book's first-week sales don't get hurt?
Late-running review embargoes are always a red flag for movies and video games. The motivation behind them is transparent.
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Personally my changes to the class would be to allow the Shifter to choose any aspect but you also get the Major Aspect if it's one of your chosen aspects also change the Wild Shape to match the various ______ Shaman Druid archetypes, you count as your level for Wild Shaping into your chosen aspects, level -2 if it isn't one of your chosen aspects
I just don't get why they didn't just give them wildshape as is. The Universal Rule of Not Going Nuts normally ensures that druid PCs don't come at the table with more than 5 or 6 shapes pre-loaded to speed play, anyhow. I went overboard years ago and was carrying 9 different character sheets for each of my druid's 9 most common used stat blocks. Them were dark years... never again.
If you lock the Shifter into one bloody form at least make it scale with level...
I just don't get why they didn't just give them wildshape as is.
Simplicity? To use Wild Shape correctly you need to consult Beast Shape and the general polymorph rules (which aren't very clear) and the Bestiaries.
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I just don't get why they didn't just give them wildshape as is.Simplicity? To use Wild Shape correctly you need to consult Beast Shape and the general polymorph rules (which aren't very clear) and the Bestiaries.
As opposed to saying "This is Beast Shape, but with THESE differences".
masquer
Decided to try to make an urban shifter, while hotfixing stuff for a homegame.
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Obviously way too late to matter but the whole direction of the Shifter struck me as kind of weird.
As far as shapeshifting goes, wildshape has by far the most content and class options associated with it. Seems strange to me that when designing a new shifting class they made another variant druid instead of touching any of the other various polymorph effects.
The real shame is that this probably puts the nail in the coffin for people who wanted a comprehensive non-druidic shapeshifter or the mix-and-match concepts that some of the pre release information on the Shifter originally implied.
I just don't get why they didn't just give them wildshape as is.Simplicity? To use Wild Shape correctly you need to consult Beast Shape and the general polymorph rules (which aren't very clear) and the Bestiaries.
I feel like Paizo missed an opportunity here. Simplified mechanics for newer players is hardly a bad thing, but this feels like it would have been a great chance to present it as variant rules instead. That way you could bolt simple polymoprh options onto whatever chassis you wanted.
Making 'entry level shapeshifting' instead a design direction of the new class both narrows the Shifter's potential audience and still leaves polymorphing at large just as problematic for players who had issues with it as before.
I just don't get why they didn't just give them wildshape as is.Simplicity? To use Wild Shape correctly you need to consult Beast Shape and the general polymorph rules (which aren't very clear) and the Bestiaries.
The wildshape rules are generally pretty clear but are rather complicated.
I just want to confirm something (I don't have my book yet):
So, the Shifter says that unless an ability is explicitly granted by the animal's summary in the class description, you don't get it, right?
Do they outright say your forms get Pounce? Because if they don't, that removes the corner case of Shifter being powerful for levels 4-5. I hope that's not the case, mind, but it would mean that the Warrior with a couple of scrolls is comprehensively better than the dedicated shapeshifting class at both combat and, you know, shapeshifting. I hope that's not the case.
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It grants pounce explicitly.
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But only certain aspects which are bound to be restricted (in PFS, at least).
...when everyone takes them.
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The wildshape rules are generally pretty clear but are rather complicated.
I've seen too many players get confused over wildshaping into larger or smaller sized versions of animals, ACP for armor that's been melded into their body, whether they can breathe air / water, etc.
The wildshape rules are generally pretty clear but are rather complicated.I've seen too many players get confused over wildshaping into larger or smaller sized versions of animals, ACP for armor that's been melded into their body, whether they can breathe air / water, etc.
Do the 'streamlined' rules change that any?
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Do the 'streamlined' rules change that any?The wildshape rules are generally pretty clear but are rather complicated.I've seen too many players get confused over wildshaping into larger or smaller sized versions of animals, ACP for armor that's been melded into their body, whether they can breathe air / water, etc.
No.
Playing around with Herolab, I find that the lycanthrope is limited to one form and aspect but that chimeric aspect is not replaced with anything. Can someone with the book tell me if this is a case of Herolab not being fully implemented yet or does the lycanthrope archetype really have two dead levels and a dead capstone? It also cannot use a weapon in one hand in hybrid form as Herolab forces a default to claws.
Reading the book and the hero lab text and how they implemented it - there is no error. Weretouched only allows one aspect ever - there is no replacement for chimeric aspect - although you still get it - even though it's worthless to you.
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So, what I'm getting is that, despite the rules for shapechanging being 'streamlined' and 'simplified' to make it easier on new players, they didn't simplify any of the actually confusing parts, just nerfed it.
Wouldn't it have been easier to simply include a page or two breaking down exactly what you keep, what you lose, and what changes in the Wilderness Rules section? Sort of like what they did with Possession in OA. It would end countless debates with all shapechanging, allow the Shifter to be understood by new players, and more.
Playing around with Herolab, I find that the lycanthrope is limited to one form and aspect but that chimeric aspect is not replaced with anything. Can someone with the book tell me if this is a case of Herolab not being fully implemented yet or does the lycanthrope archetype really have two dead levels and a dead capstone? It also cannot use a weapon in one hand in hybrid form as Herolab forces a default to claws.
The Weretouched archetype replaces Shifter Aspect and all of its improvements (including chimeric aspect and the others), since you're locked to a single form. In exchange, they get DR/silver at level 5 which scales with level. I can't see what would prevent it from using weapons though, it explicitly gains the ability to extend claws while in the hybrid form.
Playing around with Herolab, I find that the lycanthrope is limited to one form and aspect but that chimeric aspect is not replaced with anything. Can someone with the book tell me if this is a case of Herolab not being fully implemented yet or does the lycanthrope archetype really have two dead levels and a dead capstone? It also cannot use a weapon in one hand in hybrid form as Herolab forces a default to claws.The Weretouched archetype replaces Shifter Aspect and all of its improvements (including chimeric aspect and the others), since you're locked to a single form. In exchange, they get DR/silver at level 5 which scales with level. I can't see what would prevent it from using weapons though, it explicitly gains the ability to extend claws while in the hybrid form.
Technically, there shouldn't be anything preventing the Weretouched shifter from using weapons in hybrid form.
And yea, the Weretouched shifter has a huge problem with dead levels. They gain very little after level 5 aside from flat bonuses.
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Is Herolab differentiating between Animal and Hybrid for the Weretouched Wildhshape? That might be what's causing it.
Because as is there's nothing in the archetype that says you lose access to your hands, normal Lycanthropes in Hybrid form also still wield weapons.
Customer Service Manager
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It's certainly a.....novel....way to address customers concerns.Yeah, you tell people they CAN'T do something, that a sure fire way to get them to do it.
If I had to hazard a guess....they were genuinely not expecting this level of disappointment.....and are discussing what direction to take.
I took the approach I did because I simply didn't/don't have the ability to keep up with the product discussion thread when it became a back and forth bickering match about a one part of the book. I was hoping to stem the tide of flags being generated so I could get back to tackling other things, but unfortunately that didn't work out. A lot of the commentary was steering towards completely reworking the class and a product discussion thread is really not the place for that. Many of the other posts were just disappointment (fine) wrapped in insults (not fine) or people beign dismissive of critiques. I think its the first time we've tried something like that and its likely to be the last. Next time I'll probably just temp lock it completely (which I've done for the weekend) or temp ban people who can't stop baiting or insulting others over a single topic. I really had faith that people could discuss the rest of the book and let the shifter discussion cool off for a bit until people could post more respectfully, but ultimately it appears for the product discussion thread that faith was misplaced.
I don't want to ever discourage people from providing feedback, critiques, or questioning things. How people in our community feel about our content is important, however, on our forums, it needs to be done in a manner that is still respectful of other people in the community.
It is locked. See Sara Marie's post at the end of the product thread.
I don't want to ever discourage people from providing feedback, critiques, or questioning things. How people in our community feel about our content is important, however, on our forums, it needs to be done in a manner that is still respectful of other people in the community.
Believe me I get it....
People should be able to discuss the book, disappointments, concerns, critiques...etc....without the childish comments that some people were resorting to.They should also be able to discuss those things without people getting into a huff, ad hominem attacks, belittling, or stabbing the report button.
People are far to thin skinned and eager to take offense these days.
I'm sure you sometimes feel like your running a day care all by your self :P
It is locked. See Sara Marie's post at the end of the product thread.
Granted, I have only been on here hit and miss today.....but I hadn't seen any real discussion on the shifter....or any problem conversations...for the last two days......did I miss something ?
Also note that the majority of us who were expressing disappointment in the Shifter on the product page, have been right here on this thread since, discussing it....
Edit: nevermind. The locking post showed up. Funny how I didn't see any of this angst it talks about except the one guy who called the whole book a steaming pile...
Ya....that would be a good example of childish behavior.....
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I really had faith that people could discuss the rest of the book and let the shifter discussion cool off for a bit until people could post more respectfully, but ultimately it appears for the product discussion thread that faith was misplaced.
I think part of the issue is that the shifter is front and center for what they liked or disliked about the book: it's the poster boy for the book. That means that when someone makes a review/comment, it's odd not to say something about it, even if it's in passing. And for many, the class was the main reason they wanted the book at all. So for me, I'd have been surprised if there had actually been a complete halt on shifters.
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I expected at-will Wild Shape at least, considering that's the one gimmick the class does and it's only limited to certain forms.
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The dissonance between hype and product did not help early on either.
Yep. Lots of people wanted/expected something a LOT different that we got and the preview material didn't manage those expectations well: After reading it, it sounded like we'd get a shifter that could change on the fly while combining multiple shapes to make owlbears, griffons and such... That's far from what we got.
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I like the way the Beastmorph Alchemist handles it...your mutagen gives you a flat bonus to your stats, then you can pick from a limited list of special abilities, which gets better as you level.
You drink your mutagen and hulk out, grow wings, your eyes turn into those of a beast with darkvision, etc.
How do the shifter archetypes look? Any of them look like an improvement? The version that trades the animal theme for a fiend theme really interests me
How do the shifter archetypes look? Any of them look like an improvement? The version that trades the animal theme for a fiend theme really interests me
If you’re evil, the fiend archetype is good. If you’re only using one form (especially if it only has one natural attack), lycanthrope is good. Elemental archetype is good, IIRC. The racial plant shifter is equally good. The ooze shifter is interesting, but not what you’d call improvements. The other two trade hours for rounds, so I’d pass on them.
How do the shifter archetypes look? Any of them look like an improvement? The version that trades the animal theme for a fiend theme really interests me
Weretouched isn't completely awful.
Dragonborn3: No, it runs off wild shape like the rest... :P
So it's terrible. Got it.
IMO it's an upgrade of shifter: hybrid form allows for weapon, shifter's claws and/or natural weapons, DR silver and imm lycanthropy plus all equipment usable. If you want to have a ton of attacks, it's not bad. It's still tied to shifter type wildshape though...