And let's compare the Shifter with Feral Striker Brawler?
I wouldn't say the Shifter is worse than a warrior... Well, at least at levels 4+. By then, Wild Shape isn't that much of RP-trap anymore. It also gets extra skill points and better saves... That's always nice.
In any case, I built a moderately optimized Archer Warrior just for the LULz.
However, the fact that such a comparison can even be made without that much hyperbole tells us a lot about the Shifter...
** spoiler omitted **...
First of all, thanks for the quick build! With this, we should be able to make some comparisons with the build that Deadmanwalking posted earlier.
That said, I noticed that you took a +4 Cloak of Resistance but didn't actually add them to your saves for some reason. With it, you would have saves of 13/12/11 compared to the Shifter build that had 12/14/12. Not too bad, considering the fact that the Shifter had a second good save.
Also, I noticed that you took Rapid Shot and Many Shot, but didn't add them on your "Offenses" column. Actually, now that I look at it further, it doesn't seem as though you added in the bonuses of your Belt of Physical Perfection +2, either. Actually, I don't think any of your items are factored into much of anything.
...
I bought the items and then forgot to click the "currently using this item" tag...
Good work, me!
Here's a quick correction:
Human warrior 10
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 16, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +1 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +12
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk scimitar +14/+9 (1d6+3/18-20)
Ranged +2 composite longbow +17/+17/+12 (1d8+6/×3) or
. . +1 composite longbow +16/+16/+11 (1d8+4/×3)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +13; CMD 30
Feats Clustered Shots, Iron Will, Manyshot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Traits auspicious tattoo (shoanti), reactionary
Skills Climb +10, Handle Animal +2, Intimidate +11, Perception +12, Ride +10, Sense Motive +12, Stealth +16, Swim +10
Languages Common, Sylvan
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds (4), potion of fly; Other Gear +2 mithral breastplate, +2 composite longbow (+2 Str), +1 composite longbow (+2 Str), mwk scimitar, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical perfection +2, cloak of resistance +4, headband of inspired wisdom +2, ring of protection +1, 335 gp
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Special Abilities
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Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
I also added a mwk scimitar just so Mr.Archer here isn't completely helpless if he's forced into melee.
And here's a 2-handed Warrior, just because:
2-Hander
Human warrior 10
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 12, flat-footed 24 (+12 armor, +1 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 99 (10d10+40)
Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +11
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +3 falchion +17/+12 (2d4+21/15-20) or
. . mwk falchion +15/+10 (2d4+18/15-20)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +13/+8 (1d8+4/×3)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +13; CMD 29
Feats Cornugon Smash, Improved Critical (falchion), Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (falchion)
Traits auspicious tattoo (shoanti), reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +2 (-2 to jump), Climb +10, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +18, Perception +11, Ride +6, Sense Motive +7, Swim +10
Languages Common
Combat Gear oil of magic weapon (4), potion of cure light wounds (4), potion of enlarge person (4), potion of fly; Other Gear +3 full plate, +3 falchion, mwk composite longbow (+4 Str), mwk falchion, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical might +2 (Str, Con), cloak of resistance +4, ring of protection +1, 450 gp
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Special Abilities
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Cornugon Smash When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
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A good point that was raised is that while the shifter "pays" for full BAB they cannot take advantage of it since they do not get to take advantage of iterative attacks while usin their main class feature.
God what a mess.
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Would an acceptable fix to push it to 3/4 BAB (even though it was heavily sold as full-BAB) be enough of a 'concession' to allow the 'training wheels' to come off of Wild Shape?
Alternatively, could ditching some of the 'minor' abilities allow the same, since they don't have as much impact in some given situations?
Or... could there be an 'Urban' Shifter that could do this?
Trying to come up with ways to suggest fixes for it to make it actually a 'shifting' class versus a 'jumped-up cos-player in an animal outfit'.
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Animal Mask is an activated item, so it likely won't work when Polymorphed unless otherwise stated.That's...not actually how that works by my reading. You'd need to put it on after you'd shifted shape, but that's not exactly hard. I admit it's a matter for interpretation, though.
Either way, a Helm of the Mammoth Lord definitely works, and is only somewhat more pricey.
Seems to me that you aren't so much building a decent shifter as you are just taking a class and adding as many natural attacks as possible from as many sources as you can get your hands on.
This isn't so much a "the strength of a shifter" but the strength of stacking natural attacks, something you can do with any martial class, the sad thing is that the tiny damage increase shifters get is blown out of the water by practically every other damage increasing ability from other PC martial classes.
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Would an acceptable fix to push it to 3/4 BAB (even though it was heavily sold as full-BAB) be enough of a 'concession' to allow the 'training wheels' to come off of Wild Shape?Alternatively, could ditching some of the 'minor' abilities allow the same, since they don't have as much impact in some given situations?
Or... could there be an 'Urban' Shifter that could do this?
Trying to come up with ways to suggest fixes for it to make it actually a 'shifting' class versus a 'jumped-up cos-player in an animal outfit'.
Yeah... that would be balanced. It's not like we have another 3/4 BAB class with Wild Shape, 9th-level casting, an animal companion, and a lot of other abilities to go along with it.
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Seems to me that you aren't so much building a decent shifter as you are just taking a class and adding as many natural attacks as possible from as many sources as you can get your hands on.
In terms of DPR? Yes. That's exactly correct. Shifter lacks options, to compare to optimized characters of other Classes you need to play to the few strength it possesses...which are nevertheless pretty effective strengths to have.
This isn't so much a "the strength of a shifter" but the strength of stacking natural attacks, something you can do with any martial class, the sad thing is that the tiny damage increase shifters get is blown out of the water by practically every other damage increasing ability from other PC martial classes.
Well, almost no other Class can get 6 natural attacks (4 Primary) with basically no effort beyond a single item with Pounce and on a full BAB chassis and for 12+ hours a day. That's a very rare combination, and actually quite a powerful one, math wise. Powerful enough to make up for lacking any other meaningful DPR enhancer in most cases.
There are several builds that do something similar (the Beastkin Barbarian Archetype can do this pretty readily, for example) and may well be better, but they tend to be obscure and tricky to work out.
Besides which, my point was never that Shifter was an optimal choice, or even necessarily a good one, just that it was a perfectly adequate combatant as compared to other martial characters. It's so lamentably lacking in options that I'd almost infinitely rather see it gain some serious options in what you can do than I would a combat boost it doesn't really need.
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Shifter buff suggestions:
1. Aspects are unlimited use. You have all of them. Only one can be active at a time until later level abilities.
2. Changed defensive instinct such that instead of Wis to AC being 1/2 in armor, it instead becomes a natural enhancement bonus. At level 8, let her treat all armor as having the wild enhancement.
3. Shifters just gain normal wild shape.
4. At level 5 a shifter may decrease the duration of her wild shape by 1 hour to become a different form valid for wild shape.
At level 10 they select any major form aspect as an alternate wild shape form using the current shifter rules, except that owl is small and gains that owls fly speed. Furthermore, she may use beast shape 3 size adjustments instead of beast shape 2, and may increase any major form to huge size.
At level 15 a shifter can use the major form abilities with any spell that Wildshape mimics instead of just beast shape. For elemental body, she must pick what the element her major form is using and she gains the abilities appropriate for an elemental of her size. She does not have the chosen elementals movespeeds or natural attacks.
Furthermore she adds Giantshape 1 to her Wildshape options.
At level 20 a shifter acts as though she is under the shapechange spell. This is a supernatural effect that is always on unless the shifter suppresses it as a standard action. She may start this ability again as a standard action.
I will say I've made a theory craft Fiend Flesh Monkey Goblin (wanted to find something to do with them since release) that I'm pretty happy with.
Using PA + Shifter's Edge, built for Dex with an Agile Amulet of mighty fists you reach reasonable damage using the Demon form for size boost to your natural weapons.
The archetype gives you a Gore attack so you're only 1 attack behind a normal full attacker, still painful but less so.
I'm sure there are ways to get further Natural attacks as well, the Fiend form gives you wings and Monkey Goblins have a tail so maybe someone smart can work with that? There is some nice Kobold only stuff for tails, but its kobold only for tails.
For the actual feats I grabbed Branch Pounce and Death from Above to leverage the Monkey Goblin climb speed. Flyby attack to make use of the wings the form gives them.
And then Panther style and its babies to further leverage flyby attack.
I think the Aesthetic is quite kewl, it swan dives from the treetops to tear at people and then swoops through the field cutting up everything it passes.
It sounds good at least.
Ended up with 39AC which when you factor in DR10/Good, SR35, Immunity to fire and electricity and Panther Parry his defenses seem reasonable.
His offence is
With (PA), 2 Claws +31 (1D10+37), Gore +31 (1D6+37)
Without (PA) 2 Claws +37 (1D10+25), Gore +37 (1D6+25)
Pretty sure boots of speed would give another claw attack? Adjust accordingly if so.
Can post the full build for those who're interested but I do think the fiend flesh is functional. Although I'm pretty sure with this archetype you make literally no choices at all, you just pick you feats and the form you want to take at the time.
I will say I've made a theory craft Fiend Flesh Monkey Goblin (wanted to find something to do with them since release) that I'm pretty happy with.
Using PA + Shifter's Edge, built for Dex with an Agile Amulet of mighty fists you reach reasonable damage using the Demon form for size boost to your natural weapons.
The archetype gives you a Gore attack so you're only 1 attack behind a normal full attacker, still painful but less so.
I'm sure there are ways to get further Natural attacks as well, the Fiend form gives you wings and Monkey Goblins have a tail so maybe someone smart can work with that? There is some nice Kobold only stuff for tails, but its kobold only for tails.For the actual feats I grabbed Branch Pounce and Death from Above to leverage the Monkey Goblin climb speed. Flyby attack to make use of the wings the form gives them.
And then Panther style and its babies to further leverage flyby attack.
I think the Aesthetic is quite kewl, it swan dives from the treetops to tear at people and then swoops through the field cutting up everything it passes.
It sounds good at least.
Ended up with 39AC which when you factor in DR10/Good, SR35, Immunity to fire and electricity and Panther Parry his defenses seem reasonable.
His offence is
With (PA), 2 Claws +31 (1D10+37), Gore +31 (1D6+37)
Without (PA) 2 Claws +37 (1D10+25), Gore +37 (1D6+25)Pretty sure boots of speed would give another claw attack? Adjust accordingly if so.
Can post the full build for those who're interested but I do think the fiend flesh is functional. Although I'm pretty sure with this archetype you make literally no choices at all, you just pick you feats and the form you want to take at the time.
Shifter's Edge doesn't work if you're getting dex to damage from an agile amulet. So that's likely a decent chunk of damage off of them.
And you lose your racial climb speed when wildshaped.
Shifter's Edge doesn't work if you're getting dex to damage from an agile amulet. So that's likely a decent chunk of damage off of them.
And you lose your racial climb speed when wildshaped.
Oh lose agile then, which drops damage by 6 or 4 on a single attack. Or 5/3 if you get a belt of physical perfection.
On the subject the solo attack damage which is relevant, due to flyby attack and panther style, is quite healthy.With the adjustment for no agile and for now no belt of perfection 1D10+39.
He loses climb speed when he shifts but that doesn’t really matter because he can climb to where he wants to be and then shift as a swift and charge the following turn. Hopefully he would also try to start a lot of a of fights in a high position so he could swift shift and charge round one.
I mean he is a small Dex based climb speed creature, his stealth and scouting ability should be pretty nice. And once he shifts he can fly from level 5, which is also handy.
You could get the Small But Deadly feat so you can dump Strength and ignore the penalty, while still getting the benefits of Shifter's Edge. So that's pretty neat.
You could get the Small But Deadly feat so you can dump Strength and ignore the penalty, while still getting the benefits of Shifter's Edge. So that's pretty neat.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Although in this case the build starts with 13 STR (Monkey Goblins don't have negative STR) and ends with 18 (1 racial 4 from Demon form) so isn't losing anything from STR.
It also doesn't have WF and the claws aren't racial. But again thanks for the suggestion, I'm sure some people will find it handy for other shifter builds.
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Seems to me that you aren't so much building a decent shifter as you are just taking a class and adding as many natural attacks as possible from as many sources as you can get your hands on.In terms of DPR? Yes. That's exactly correct. Shifter lacks options, to compare to optimized characters of other Classes you need to play to the few strength it possesses...which are nevertheless pretty effective strengths to have.
This isn't so much a "the strength of a shifter" but the strength of stacking natural attacks, something you can do with any martial class, the sad thing is that the tiny damage increase shifters get is blown out of the water by practically every other damage increasing ability from other PC martial classes.Well, almost no other Class can get 6 natural attacks (4 Primary) with basically no effort beyond a single item with Pounce and on a full BAB chassis and for 12+ hours a day. That's a very rare combination, and actually quite a powerful one, math wise. Powerful enough to make up for lacking any other meaningful DPR enhancer in most cases.
There are several builds that do something similar (the Beastkin Barbarian Archetype can do this pretty readily, for example) and may well be better, but they tend to be obscure and tricky to work out.
Besides which, my point was never that Shifter was an optimal choice, or even necessarily a good one, just that it was a perfectly adequate combatant as compared to other martial characters. It's so lamentably lacking in options that I'd almost infinitely rather see it gain some serious options in what you can do than I would a combat boost it doesn't really need.
Wait, how exactly is the Shifter gaining 6 natural attacks, again? As far as I can see, the most attacks they can gain from their class is 3, bite/claw/claw.
Barbarian doesn't need Beastkin Beserker to equal that. Lesser Beast Totem @ Level 2 gives him 2 claw attacks, Animal Fury gives a Bite attack. If you are relying on outside sources to add to that, the Barbarian can easily do the same. The Beastkin Beserker Barbarian however, is one step above even that.
See, nothing actually stops a Beastkin Beserker Barbarian from taking Beast Totem. This means that they can add on claw attacks to almost any form with the limbs capable of using them. This also means that they can also add Pounce to any form. When a Beastkin Beserker Barbarian takes Beast Totem, not only do their combat forms become ever more threatening, but even their non-combat utility forms can be potent contributors to a fight.
tl; dr? A Beastkin Beserker Barbarian can turn into a Giant Falcon with Bite/Claw/Claw/Talon/Talon, flight, and pounce all from level 10. No items, no external buffs, all class features.
Kaouse: Deinonychus: bite, two talon attacks, two foreclaw attacks + Animal Mask or Helm of the Mammoth Lord. 6 total, 5 from class.
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Gargoyles can Bite and Gore on the same full attack, so I don't know why a PC couldn't.
Kaouse: Deinonychus: bite, two talon attacks, two foreclaw attacks + Animal Mask or Helm of the Mammoth Lord. 6 total, 5 from class.
Ah, I missed the fact that Deinonychus gains 2 foreclaws at level 8, and only saw the original 3.
Also interesting, why does the creature that gives you Pounce + the most natural attacks actually give you Spring Attack? Is there really any case whereby you would use Spring Attack over Pounce?
At any rate, if you want natural attacks, I'd just go with a Ragebred Skinwalker Beast Totem Barbarian. 3 natural attacks by level 1, 5 natural attacks by level 2, 6 natural attacks by level 3 if you take Animal Fury with Extra Rage Power. Altogether you can get Bite/Gore/Claw/Claw/Hoof/Hoof, presumably all as primary natural attacks.
The way the Shifter works, I don't think they gain any benefit from being a Skinwalker, which means I doubt they can do much to keep up.
I thought you couldn't bite and gore at the same time? (Using the same "limb" to attack twice.)
Dozens of monsters disagree that a head is a limb. Check a Gargoyle, dragon, ect to see.
Gargoyle: Melee 2 claws +7 (1d6+2), bite +7 (1d4+2), gore +7 (1d4+2)
Man-Eating Aurochs Melee bite +8 (1d8+6), gore +8 (1d8+6)
Wolpertinger: Melee bite +6 (1d3–1 plus bleed 1d4), gore +6 (1d3–1)
Feranth: Melee bite +25 (2d6+8), 2 claws +25 (1d8+8), gore +25 (2d6+8 plus push)
Spirit Oni: Melee bite +9 (1d4–2), gore +9 (1d4–2 plus poison)
Fafnheir: Melee bite +36 (6d6+17/19–20 plus poison), 2 claws +36 (2d8+17/19–20), gore +36 (4d6+17/19–20), tail slap +31 (4d6+8 plus grab)
Lythirium: Melee gore +21 (2d8+9 plus rampant growth), bite +21 (2d8+9)
Avernus Razorback: Melee gore +16 (2d10+6/19–20 plus bleed), bite +16 (1d8+6)
Dragons: several types get both, but too many and natural weapons on chart so...
Kaouse: There are times a single hit is going to kill something, so a full pounce is complete overkill. It's also useful in maneuvering in places with blocked charge lanes: get an attack and put yourself into a position to charge the person you actually want to hit.
So spring attack isn't the greatest on a pouncer but it does have uses.
The mental imagery I've always had is the horn array rising up on the Gore attack and then the Bite.
...and the only times I've had someone encounter a creature with both, my GM used both...
I always thought that creatures with a bite and a gore just chose which one they used in a given round because of the limit of attacks per limb rule.
Just like you can choose between an unarmed strike and a claw attack, but you can't do both.
Can't you kick someone and then use your claws as secondary natural attacks, though?
You have to choose between a weapon attack and a claw attack with the hand that would be holding that weapon, but you can make unarmed attacks with your knees, feet, elbows, forehead, etc. Something there is going to not have claws on it.
I always thought that creatures with a bite and a gore just chose which one they used in a given round because of the limit of attacks per limb rule.
Just like you can choose between an unarmed strike and a claw attack, but you can't do both.
Can't you kick someone and then use your claws as secondary natural attacks, though?
You have to choose between a weapon attack and a claw attack with the hand that would be holding that weapon, but you can make unarmed attacks with your knees, feet, elbows, forehead, etc. Something there is going to not have claws on it.
Correct. You can make an unarmed strike with any part of the body and combine it with claws.
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I always thought that creatures with a bite and a gore just chose which one they used in a given round because of the limit of attacks per limb rule.
Just like you can choose between an unarmed strike and a claw attack, but you can't do both.
Note the melee lines I copied. They show the complete full attack retinue for the creature in question. For example, a Gargoyle makes 2 claws a bite and a gore with a full attack, while a Spirit Oni makes a bite and a gore. If it was optional like you thought, they would have separate entries separated by an or.
As examples:
Lizardfolk Champion: Melee +1 lance +17/+12 (1d8+8/19–20/×3) or claw +15 (1d6+5), bite +10 (1d4+2)
Savage Great Cyclops: Melee mwk Huge greatclub +35/+30/+25/+20 (3d8+25), gore +33 (1d8+8) or gore +33 (1d8+17), 2 slams +33 (2d6+17)
Kapoacinth Hunter: Melee spear +12/+7 (1d8+4/×3), bite +11 (1d4+4), gore +11 (1d4+4) or bite +11 (1d4+4), 2 claws +11 (1d6+4), gore +11 (1d4+4)
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Don't feed trolls, guys, especially not with jell-o oozes.Eh, the problem at the minute is determining which side is the troll.
My usual metric is which side resorts to BLOCK CAPS to give weight to their arguments...
If you make them mute as an Ooze don’t you also make Lashunta the #1 race choice?I don't know about #1, but an Astomoi Oozemorph could be interesting.
I'm gonna keep insisting we get an FAQ to clarify a poorly worded archetype though. That way when you follow all the applicable rules to their end you get something that works.I don't think anyone has said it couldn't be made clearer, and I suspect both sides would prefer updated wording which resolves the situation clearly.
In fact, I don't think I've seen anyone say it didn't need a clarification.
Astomoi can only sense within 60ft and have negative con. Male Lashunta get a strength bonus and normal senses.
I think I’d go Lashunta.
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I will say I've made a theory craft Fiend Flesh Monkey Goblin (wanted to find something to do with them since release) that I'm pretty happy with.
Using PA + Shifter's Edge, built for Dex with an Agile Amulet of mighty fists you reach reasonable damage using the Demon form for size boost to your natural weapons.
The archetype gives you a Gore attack so you're only 1 attack behind a normal full attacker, still painful but less so.
I'm sure there are ways to get further Natural attacks as well, the Fiend form gives you wings and Monkey Goblins have a tail so maybe someone smart can work with that? There is some nice Kobold only stuff for tails, but its kobold only for tails.For the actual feats I grabbed Branch Pounce and Death from Above to leverage the Monkey Goblin climb speed. Flyby attack to make use of the wings the form gives them.
And then Panther style and its babies to further leverage flyby attack.
I think the Aesthetic is quite kewl, it swan dives from the treetops to tear at people and then swoops through the field cutting up everything it passes.
It sounds good at least.
Ended up with 39AC which when you factor in DR10/Good, SR35, Immunity to fire and electricity and Panther Parry his defenses seem reasonable.
His offence is
With (PA), 2 Claws +31 (1D10+37), Gore +31 (1D6+37)
Without (PA) 2 Claws +37 (1D10+25), Gore +37 (1D6+25)Pretty sure boots of speed would give another claw attack? Adjust accordingly if so.
Can post the full build for those who're interested but I do think the fiend flesh is functional. Although I'm pretty sure with this archetype you make literally no choices at all, you just pick you feats and the form you want to take at the time.
i would love to see this build
i would love to see this build
There isn't much to see, the archetype doesn't allow for a great deal of choice xD
Cha: 10
Int: 10
Wis:12
Str: 13
Con: 14
Dex: 20
Traits:
Reactionary
Suspicious
Feats:
1) Weapon Finesse
3) Shifter’s Edge
5) Power Attack
7) Branch Pounce
9) Unarmed Strike
11) Panther Style
13) Flyby Attack
15) Panther Claw
17) Death From Above
19) Panther Parry
AC: 39 (10 + 10(DEX) + 8(Bracers) + 5(Deflection) + 4(NA) + 1(Insight) + 1 (Size))
DR 10/Good (literally just a class feature)
Attack Sequence (PA): 31 (1D10+31) x2 31 (1D6+31)
Attack Sequence: 37 (1D10+19) x2 37 (1D6+19)
Single Attack: 37 (1D10+21)
Single Power Attack: 31 (1D10+39)
This is all is greater demon form for the size increase to Natrual weapons and +4 enhancement bonus to STR.
The only gear I'm assuming here is a Pale Green Prism, A Dusty Rose, A Ring of Protection, A belt of Might (Dex/Con), Amulet of mighty fists. Boots of Speed should be pretty handy too, I think, since then you'd have 90ft Flight speed and a nice little to hit and Ac bonus.
Am I reading it right that picking Owl aspect gives you Flyby Attack as a bonus feat but not a fly speed?I see no way to read it any other way.Oh wow. Just. Wow.
EDIT: A Medium sized Owl doesn't even exist, so it's literally impossible to know what speed you get. 10/10 right there. This is what happens when you release a class without playtesting it first. Though honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this class wasn't even edited prior to release.
Actually, it does. See page 181 (as is referenced in the Owl aspect on page 30) and look at the Starting Statistics for 'Owl, Giant'.
No editing situation there, just lack of reading.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Seems to me that you aren't so much building a decent shifter as you are just taking a class and adding as many natural attacks as possible from as many sources as you can get your hands on.In terms of DPR? Yes. That's exactly correct. Shifter lacks options, to compare to optimized characters of other Classes you need to play to the few strength it possesses...which are nevertheless pretty effective strengths to have.
This isn't so much a "the strength of a shifter" but the strength of stacking natural attacks, something you can do with any martial class, the sad thing is that the tiny damage increase shifters get is blown out of the water by practically every other damage increasing ability from other PC martial classes.Well, almost no other Class can get 6 natural attacks (4 Primary) with basically no effort beyond a single item with Pounce and on a full BAB chassis and for 12+ hours a day. That's a very rare combination, and actually quite a powerful one, math wise. Powerful enough to make up for lacking any other meaningful DPR enhancer in most cases.
There are several builds that do something similar (the Beastkin Barbarian Archetype can do this pretty readily, for example) and may well be better, but they tend to be obscure and tricky to work out.
Besides which, my point was never that Shifter was an optimal choice, or even necessarily a good one, just that it was a perfectly adequate combatant as compared to other martial characters. It's so lamentably lacking in options that I'd almost infinitely rather see it gain some serious options in what you can do than I would a combat boost it doesn't really need.
I'm fairly certain you have a high degree of system mastery. You go through the forms and figure out which one offers the most natural attacks and then you seek out a magic item to captilize in the natural attack ability. At this stage of the Pathfinder cycle most people are system savvy enough to look things up in the same way you where probably aware of the helm.
The Full BAB chasis is close to meaningless and it's enhancement bonus is a bad joke.
Skald, Hunter, Ranger, Barbarian, Oracle, Summoner Eidolon, Druid, Alchemist, Bloodrager, Shaman.
These are all classes that have abilities that lend themselves to natural attack builds. The Warpriest, Inquisitor and the Slayer may have something I'm not aware of.
At level 11 a moonlight Oracle can have beast shape 3 for 11 hours a day, beast shape 4 at level 13. As a swift action they have an ability that lets them get an extra 2 natural attacks, claw, bite or gore so they can seek out more optimal forms than the shifter, they can also get an animal companion, charisma to ac and reflex saves instead of dex. This does not even include the spellcasting.
How many of these do you think beat the shifter at it's own game?
NoTongue says it. At this point the only thing that can save the Shifter is a revised Shifter (blog post or revised PDF).
Eh, I like it for the opportunity it allows to play a Beorn-like character without a heck of a lot of perusing multiple sources.
So, for that purpose, I don't think the Shifter even needs to be saved.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...Actually, I'm trying to put together *exactly* that, and having a hard time with it.
So yes, for that purpose (and one of several I bought the book for) it needs significant overhaul.
Am I reading it right that picking Owl aspect gives you Flyby Attack as a bonus feat but not a fly speed?I see no way to read it any other way.Oh wow. Just. Wow.
EDIT: A Medium sized Owl doesn't even exist, so it's literally impossible to know what speed you get. 10/10 right there. This is what happens when you release a class without playtesting it first. Though honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this class wasn't even edited prior to release.
Actually, it does. See page 181 (as is referenced in the Owl aspect on page 30) and look at the Starting Statistics for 'Owl, Giant'.
No editing situation there, just lack of reading.
According to the d20pfsrd, Giant Owls are listed as Huge Sized Magical Beasts. I don't see another entry, so please link it if you can.
That said, if they added a new entry for "Giant Owl" and didn't realize that a creature already had that name, then that only proves my point further. 10/10.
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NoTongue says it. At this point the only thing that can save the Shifter is a revised Shifter (blog post or revised PDF).Eh, I like it for the opportunity it allows to play a Beorn-like character without a heck of a lot of perusing multiple sources.
So, for that purpose, I don't think the Shifter even needs to be saved.
Eh, then again, you probably won't avail yourself of the opportunity, if we're being honest right?
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NoTongue says it. At this point the only thing that can save the Shifter is a revised Shifter (blog post or revised PDF).Eh, I like it for the opportunity it allows to play a Beorn-like character without a heck of a lot of perusing multiple sources.
So a Mooncursed or Beastkin Berserker Barbarian?
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Currently...I can't think of any character concepts I can't do better with an existing class/archetype combo.
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Eh, I like it for the opportunity it allows to play a Beorn-like character without a heck of a lot of perusing multiple sources.
This doesn't make sense as it adds an additional book and section you have to look in: You have to look up your animal, the spell AND the UW exceptions for that forms...
If you wanted a Beorn-like character, you only HAVE to look up a single animal for countless other shapeshifting characters: nothing forces you take multiple forms from multiple books... The shifter has manages to make the single form shapechanger more difficult than other shapeshifters. :P
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I'm fairly certain you have a high degree of system mastery. You go through the forms and figure out which one offers the most natural attacks and then you seek out a magic item to captilize in the natural attack ability. At this stage of the Pathfinder cycle most people are system savvy enough to look things up in the same way you where probably aware of the helm.
I'm not sure of that at all. Of the people I'm currently running a game for (a group of 6) I think two would do so as quickly as I and a third would find it eventually. The other three would likely not find it.
High levels of systems mastery are nowhere near universal.
The Full BAB chasis is close to meaningless and it's enhancement bonus is a bad joke.
Actually, no to both. Full BAB is +5 to hit over 20 levels, the same as most really good accuracy enhancing class features, and Enhancement Bonuses save you something on the order of 192,000 GP by high levels (the difference between a +6 Belt of Physical Perfection and a +6 Belt of Strength).
They aren't sufficient but they are neither meaningless, nor a joke.
Skald, Hunter, Ranger, Barbarian, Oracle, Summoner Eidolon, Druid, Alchemist, Bloodrager, Shaman.
These are all classes that have abilities that lend themselves to natural attack builds. The Warpriest, Inquisitor and the Slayer may have something I'm not aware of.
Slayer can grab the Ranger Combat Style. Warpriests get Feral Champion in UW itself. I'm not thinking of anything for Inquisitor.
At level 11 a moonlight Oracle can have beast shape 3 for 11 hours a day, beast shape 4 at level 13. As a swift action they have an ability that lets them get an extra 2 natural attacks, claw, bite or gore so they can seek out more optimal forms than the shifter, they can also get an animal companion, charisma to ac and reflex saves instead of dex. This does not even include the spellcasting.
All true. Of course, this takes quite a while to get going.
How many of these do you think beat the shifter at it's own game?
With a high level of optimization and high character level? All of them except Slayer and Ranger (who lack Pounce).
Of course, all of those but Barbarian are casters and will thus be better than a Fighter, Slayer, or almost any other martial as well. Caster/Martial disparity is a thing and one Shifters fall on the Martial side of. So...that statement doesn't mean a lot (except in regards to Barbarian, and even there Barbarians are one of the best Martials out there).
There's a reason I've been consistently comparing them to Fighters, and that's because both are fairly straightforward martial characters. The further you depart from 'straightforward martial character' the more Shifter is gonna be screwed comparatively...but that's not actually anything to do with Shifter for the most part. Fighter is in the same situation (maybe to a slightly lesser degree, but not all that much). As are most other non-casters.
Slayer can grab the Ranger Combat Style. Warpriests get Feral Champion in UW itself. I'm not thinking of anything for Inquisitor.Skald, Hunter, Ranger, Barbarian, Oracle, Summoner Eidolon, Druid, Alchemist, Bloodrager, Shaman.
These are all classes that have abilities that lend themselves to natural attack builds. The Warpriest, Inquisitor and the Slayer may have something I'm not aware of.
Since Inquisitors get significant extra damage per attack from Bane, wouldn't they do well with the "many originally weak attacks" natural attack builds have a tendency to be? I guess the difficulty is in actually getting the attacks, but since so many options all give claws it shouldn't be too hard to get a full set.
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Since Inquisitors get significant extra damage per attack from Bane, wouldn't they do well with the "many originally weak attacks" natural attack builds have a tendency to be? I guess the difficulty is in actually getting the attacks, but since so many options all give claws it shouldn't be too hard to get a full set.
The best option for this is Ragebred Skinwalker. Unfortunately, Bane specifies a single weapon, which limits a natural attack Inquisitor significantly.
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Actually, no to both. Full BAB is +5 to hit over 20 levels, the same as most really good accuracy enhancing class features, and Enhancement Bonuses save you something on the order of 192,000 GP by high levels (the difference between a +6 Belt of Physical Perfection and a +6 Belt of Strength).
They aren't sufficient but they are neither meaningless, nor a joke.
Not really.
Let's take an Inquisitor against a Fighter.
Inquisitors with Judgement to attack (with two more to two other attributes, such as damage, AC, saves, and so on) actually supersedes the BAB disparity, gaining a +6 bonus at the endgame. This doesn't even factor in their buff spells, such as Wrath, Divine Favor/Power, or Bane, all of which the Fighter can't emulate (or at best, can match with Weapon Training and Gloves of Dueling). Better skill points, saving throw chassis, superior features...the list goes on. And this isn't factoring in any archetypes or sources outside of Advanced Player's Guide.
The Fighter, with Advanced Weapon/Armor Training options, can only at-best match the Inquisitor with all of this stuff going. Sure, the Fighter is more constant and doesn't require a full round (and a 2,000 gold magic item) to buff to those numbers, but the factor is that the Inquisitor is more than functional compared to a Fighter in the moments where having Fighter+ level martial capabilities matter, and the Inquisitor:
1. Has better features overall.
2. Doesn't have to rely on Pathfinder Companion Books to function at an appropriate level.
3. Is not a Full BAB class.
I seriously cannot stress that last point enough, because that is probably the #1 reason why the Shifter has such lackluster options, because the devs overvalued BAB on a class and combat niche that, honestly, doesn't give two damns about what their BAB value is. An Animal isn't scary because it has 3/4 BAB, it's scary because it has, like, a 40 Strength score to compensate for 2-3 attack bonus.
I mean come on, people make Melee Sorcerers who go into Dragon Disciple and utilize Form of the Dragon I-III for combat situations, and they are (for at least half their levels) a 1/2 BAB, D6 Hit Dice class, with an at best other half of 3/4 BAB, D12 Hit Dice PrC. And that sort of playstyle, if built correctly, can be just as effective as any stereotypical Fighter build, if not moreso due to them having the added utility of possessing the best spell list in the game, capable of whatever the hell else they so damn please.
This sort of stuff goes on with classes like Warpriest, Magus, Shaman, Hunter, Oracle...you get the idea. The fact of the matter is that Full BAB is not such a defining feature that it should be compensated with the gimping of the class' other features as a result.
Since Inquisitors get significant extra damage per attack from Bane, wouldn't they do well with the "many originally weak attacks" natural attack builds have a tendency to be? I guess the difficulty is in actually getting the attacks, but since so many options all give claws it shouldn't be too hard to get a full set.The best option for this is Ragebred Skinwalker. Unfortunately, Bane specifies a single weapon, which limits a natural attack Inquisitor significantly.
There's a feat that allows multiple Bane effects.
Unfortunately, it's pretty gimped, and costs twice as many rounds to make work.
**EDIT** As for exploiting Bane procs, you're better off going with Archer Inquisitors, since they can get just as many attacks as a TWF character (Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Divine Power covers the 3 attacks gained from the TWF feat chain), without having to use more than one weapon. They also have better to-hit bonuses in comparison, and don't require risking your hide by going into melee to make it work.
The more you know...
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This sort of stuff goes on with classes like Warpriest, Magus, Shaman, Hunter, Oracle...you get the idea. The fact of the matter is that Full BAB is not such a defining feature that it should be compensated with the gimping of the class' other features as a result.
What part of 'not sufficient' was unclear? I'm not arguing Shifter has sufficient advantages as compared to, say, Inquisitor or that what they lose for Full BAB is worth the gain...I'm saying that both full BAB and their stat ups are meaningful and useful class features and saying they aren't is silly and counterproductive.
They just aren't meaningful and useful enough to actually either make then Class especially fun or on par with any casters.
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The value of "full-BAB" is lessened even further here by having much of the focus of the Shifter be on making natural attacks, which do not care about or benefit from your BAB at all.
Like why "You may make an additional attack at -5 to hit with your claws at level 6, another at -10 to hit at level 11, etc." wasn't baked into the class, I have no idea.
With the exception of "qualifying for feats" (which the Shifter does not have many of) I don't think the basic Shifter would play very differently if it was 3/4, 1/2, or even the lone 1/4 BAB class in the game.
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The value of "full-BAB" is lessened even further here by having much of the focus of the Shifter be on making natural attacks, which do not care about or benefit from your BAB at all.
Like why "You may make an additional attack at -5 to hit with your claws at level 6, another at -10 to hit at level 11, etc." wasn't baked into the class, I have no idea.
With the exception of "qualifying for feats" (which the Shifter does not have many of) I don't think the basic Shifter would play very differently if it was 3/4, 1/2, or even the lone 1/4 BAB class in the game.
If it had a flat bonus to hit that compensated? It'd still matter for Power Attack (which does indeed matter), but not a lot other than that, no.
A 1/2 BAB Shifter that got to add +7 to hit and +6 to damage from class features would indeed play about the same. But that +7 to hit and +6 damage do indeed matter.