I think my favorite part of the class is the moronic weapons...
I love that everyone ignored that you called it "moronic weapons".
the last one, Int, is one i'd very much like to play.
Would love if the Oozmorph gets taht ability to combined attacks into one.
would flavor so well
_Class
oozemorph shifter
_Race
human (Comprehensive Education racial feature)
_FCB
all levels to skill ranks
_Starting stats
12,12,14,18+2,8,7
_Feats
1 snapping turtle style
1 improved unarmed strike
5 kirin style
9 kirin strike
13 combat stamina
17 combat style master
VMC wizard (arcane discovery: knowledge is power)
So with high INT gets a lot of skill ranks, then extra ranks for fav class bonus. High INT also means good damage for kirin strike. Combat Stamina is there to have kirin strike damage bonus constantly.
With VMC wizard gets access to Knowledge is power and adding INT modifier to all maneuvers checks and CMD.
Somewhat the build benefits something of IUS feat, because of the iterative attacks with IUS plus the extra natural attacks from morphic weaponry. Snapping turtle is there only to get Combat Style Master, for having Kirin Style active from beginning of combat...
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I've made a number of oozemorphs who use combat styles and I'm always left at the end wondering "why didn't I just make a monk?" Sure, Morphic Weapons can add a bunch of attacks you can use as secondary natural attacks with your full attack (after making your iteratives with IUS) but a monk can flurry for sure, fewer attacks, but unarmed strike damage at least scales for the monk and the monk is a much more functional chassis (you get bonus feats!).
Since the Oozemorph doesn't get any built-in way to overcome DR with morphic weapons, hitting for d6 + whatever modifier a whole bunch of times might not be that strong.
Astomoi is another very interesting race option.....
Telepathy, and all around senses....but just occurred to me that beside the Con hit....they also are "Humanoid"....so take the hit on combat maneuvers....
And not one of the new Shifter feats work with Oozemorph...it's locked out of all of them....:(
And not one of the new Shifter feats work with Oozemorph...it's locked out of all of them....:(It sucks somewhat but leaves you free for other feats like improve natural attack.
I hope you're saying that sarcastically... :P
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It would be nice to get some clarification as to whether a PC Oozemorph gets to take monster feats like Improved Natural Attack and Multiattack though. Like we don't generally allow monster feats for PCs, but in this case...?
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I feel like the idea behind "a shifter archetype where you want to be transformed all the time, because not being transformed is a problem" isn't itself a bad one. The vanilla shifter has the opposite problem really (turning into a tiger is good, but not being able to talk is bad).
The specific restrictions could have been less seemingly harsh than "you're kind of completely helpless for the first 3 levels or so, and possibly more interesting than "you'll never worry about it once you hit level 6 since you're going to be shifted the entire time you're awake."
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It would be nice to get some clarification as to whether a PC Oozemorph gets to take monster feats like Improved Natural Attack and Multiattack though. Like we don't generally allow monster feats for PCs, but in this case...?
That would be more a PFS thing. Nothing in the rules disallows monster feats for PC's that "qualify for them".
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The concept was good it was just not implemented very well.
That would be more a PFS thing. Nothing in the rules disallows monster feats for PC's that "qualify for them".
I've been in a few games where the standard for "stuff you can take" was "anything in a player companion, or an RPG book that's not a bestiary, and nothing from in bestiaries." So "reprinting multiattack in Ultimate Wilderness" say would have been super handy.
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The concept was good
IMO oozeform as a punishment isn't really a concept I like.
That would be more a PFS thing. Nothing in the rules disallows monster feats for PC's that "qualify for them".I've been in a few games where the standard for "stuff you can take" was "anything in a player companion, or an RPG book that's not a bestiary, and nothing from in bestiaries." So "reprinting multiattack in Ultimate Wilderness" say would have been super handy.
That's different than what you were saying though. A clarification the oozemorph can take Improved Natural Attack/Multiattack wouldn't change what books the DM allows and getting monster feats reprinted into wilderness isn't possible at this point.
That you are a ooze and can transform to non ooze things is kind of a cool concept.
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I feel like the sweet spot would lie with the ooze form being inconvenient, but nowhere near as crippling as it appears to be, and have the "time spent as a non-ooze" ramp up somewhat more slowly.
Like the biggest problem I have with the shifter (all versions thereof) is that nobody thought "you will be spending hours of the day unable to communicate with your party or anybody else" was a very large drawback. (Sure you can take Wild Speech, but that's at 7th level, and as a martial class without spells your feats are way more precious than they are for a druid.)
That^
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I feel like the sweet spot would lie with the ooze form being inconvenient, but nowhere near as crippling as it appears to be, and have the "time spent as a non-ooze" ramp up somewhat more slowly.
Yes, this. I'd be fine with ooze not being great but I'd rather it wasn't awful.
So, in the efforts of theorycrafting (and in the belief that some kind entity is watching this thread waiting for perfect insight) what would we need to do to Oozemorph to *fix* it?
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I think you would have to start by fixing the shifter then go from there.
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So, in the efforts of theorycrafting (and in the belief that some kind entity is watching this thread waiting for perfect insight) what would we need to do to Oozemorph to *fix* it?
First thing they need to do is reverse the entire damn class... I don't want no NOT be an Ooze. I can play dozens of classes with 100s of variation archetypes and be a humanoid. I don't want to suffer for a few levels just to fight to be a damn humanoid. It's called Oozemorph... lets me morph into a freakin ooze. Willingly, without being crippled by it.
While we're at it, attach it to a better class. There is no saving this without reworking the Shifter so give it to something like Slayer or Ranger.
So, in the efforts of theorycrafting (and in the belief that some kind entity is watching this thread waiting for perfect insight) what would we need to do to Oozemorph to *fix* it?First thing they need to do is reverse the entire damn class... I don't want no NOT be an Ooze. I can play dozens of classes with 100s of variation archetypes and be a humanoid. I don't want to suffer for a few levels just to fight to be a damn humanoid. It's called Oozemorph... lets me morph into a freakin ooze. Willingly, without being crippled by it.
While we're at it, attach it to a better class. There is no saving this without reworking the Shifter so give it to something like Slayer or Ranger.
Yeah, there's no reason they couldn't have had you simply be your standard type, and then allowed you to shift into an Ooze, referring to the new Ooze Form spell (from the very same book the class is published from, just as the Druid referenced Beast Shape and Elemental Body and such from the Core Rulebook, same book that they were published in,) that lets you transform into an Ooze of your choosing and gain all of the benefits the Ooze Form spell lets you have based on the tier of the spell.
Similarly, you can replace Shifter's Claws with Morphic Weapons that function regardless of form, and then some of the other EX abilities would function while shifted into an Ooze, while counting as both Ooze and your base type when so shifted.
The other big thing to fix would be the limited uses versus limited duration problem. A lot of people think Shifters suck because they don't have compensated utility from going from Full Spellcaster to Full BAB. And they're right. At 4th level, they can only shift once, into one form, for 4 hours a day, and if they end it prematurely, it's non-functional. They also cut out the At-Will capstone, which is equally ridiculous.
I mean, a single pool of 1 hour/level (which must be usable in that amount of increments) that you can transform into the different Oozes/Forms as a Standard Action (instantly ending that hour's worth of transformation) is the best sweet spot I can think of, since it rewards flexibility that you're assumed to have while reasonably cutting down on how long you can stay shifted at a given time. With this, you could even shift from 1st level into one form for 1 hour per day, but I'd rather stick to the 4th level option since it otherwise encourages munchkin dipping for some stupid amounts of shenanigans, and we have enough of that as it is.
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So, in the efforts of theorycrafting (and in the belief that some kind entity is watching this thread waiting for perfect insight) what would we need to do to Oozemorph to *fix* it?
Firstly it would need to clarify most of Fluidic Body so that people had a clear understanding of what they keep from their base race.
I think they need to reduce some of the restriction as well.
Allow static magic items to be absorbed but still function in Ooze form, and I see zero reason why Psychic magic shouldn't be usable in Ooze form.
Similarly, you can replace Shifter's Claws with Morphic Weapons that function regardless of form, and then some of the other EX abilities would function while shifted into an Ooze, while counting as both Ooze and your base type when so shifted.
By my reading that's already how Morphic Weapon works....am I missing something ?
Similarly, you can replace Shifter's Claws with Morphic Weapons that function regardless of form, and then some of the other EX abilities would function while shifted into an Ooze, while counting as both Ooze and your base type when so shifted.By my reading that's already how Morphic Weapon works....am I missing something ?
I don't know, that archetype isn't on the D20PFSRD from last I checked, so I can't confirm if that's the case. I honestly don't even know what it does outside of maybe grow some natural weapons? (I though you could turn your arm into a sword or something just as cool, but there was no thought to go into the archetype.)
It lets you grow 2-4 primary 1D6 natural attacks of any damage type.
You can do it in any form.
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It lets you grow 2-4 primary 1D6 natural attacks of any damage type.
You can do it in any form.
As long as the form has less than 2-4 natural attacks of it's own
Yeah, I searched for Beast Shape targets that don't get natural attacks, and didn't really find any in small or medium. So the ability to use beast shape at level 8 instead of Alter Self isn't very useful assuming you invested feats in upgrading your morphic weapons (Weapon Focus (Morphic Weapon) and Improved Natural Attack (Morphic Weapon) are reasonable.)
When you get Giant Shape I at 15 that might help, but maybe all Giants get slams? The fact that Morphic Weapons discourage you from choosing forms with natural attacks because you might have upgraded the ones you always have through feats that won't also improve bites and slams and the like is pretty weird.
Reagarding Beast Shape I , you can become a chimpanzee or an orangutan, medium animals with reach, and then disable your slams by filling your hands with weapons - which would then allow you to take your full natural attack complement. Similarly Giant Shape I and a troll form, you can fill your hands with a weapon, giving you more space for morphic weaponry...Yeah, I searched for Beast Shape targets that don't get natural attacks, and didn't really find any in small or medium. So the ability to use beast shape at level 8 instead of Alter Self isn't very useful assuming you invested feats in upgrading your morphic weapons (Weapon Focus (Morphic Weapon) and Improved Natural Attack (Morphic Weapon) are reasonable.)
When you get Giant Shape I at 15 that might help, but maybe all Giants get slams? The fact that Morphic Weapons discourage you from choosing forms with natural attacks because you might have upgraded the ones you always have through feats that won't also improve bites and slams and the like is pretty weird.
Filling your hands doesn't remove your natural weapons: it just stops access to them.
"The total number of natural attacks an oozemorph has at any given time includes those gained via her current form.": not natural attacks you can currently use but those you gained from the form. As such, those attacks still decrease the number of morphic weapons you can make. A wolf form with a muzzle on still makes one less morphic weapon because of the bite.
Also, both archetypes feature changing shape (primarily into humanoid and vaguely humanoid creatures) as a core function. Which isn't that surprising for a shifter archetype, more so for an alchemist.
...and ah, not to be harsh or anything, but what is it with this heavily restricted transformative property mindset going on?
Metamorph and then Oozemorph vs, say, CORE Druid?
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Metamorph and then Oozemorph vs, say, CORE Druid?
Metamorph isn't nearly as bad. It has a mechanism for switching forms without ending the effect and gets regular extra uses. Add to that it covers alter self, monstrous physiques and giant forms.
Overall it's an archetype I don't mind playing. Oozemorph though... While it covers alter self, beast shape and giant shape it doesn't get highest levels of those spells and switching forms uses a use. I'm not sure why a class focused on shifting, and it's archetypes, lose out to Metamorph.
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I think the Metamorph is halfway decent if you have an encyclopedic knowledge of the bestiaries to pick whatever thing you need in the moment assuming that you can survive until the interesting options come online- you're golden once you can start turning into a Calikang at level 9.
A reasonable design goal for the Shifter class as a whole is "okay, do that but don't require an encyclopedic knowledge of the bestiaries, and let people do cool stuff at lower levels." Sadly what we got was "you can be a tiger, but if you want to stop being a tiger for a minute you're out of wild shape for today, sorry, no you can't go from tiger to bird to octopus back to tiger."
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...and let us not forget...
"Your buddy the druid over there that ALSO has spells and ALSO has an animal companion and ALSO has spontaneous summons can do whatever form they like."
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That in and of itself is a pretty damning statement.
Oh I agree. Metamorph was a step in the right direction IMO. Why they made the decision to take 2 steps back instead on another step forward is beyond me. Shifter would be a LOT less awful if it worked like the metamorph's Shapechanger and less like wild shape.
I think the Metamorph is halfway decent if you have an encyclopedic knowledge of the bestiaries
IMO, any character/player that's taking a class with a shape changing schtick would do their best to 'hit the books' and pick the best options. To a lot of people that are attracted to the class, looking through the book for new forms is a plus not a minus. I'm unsure how many were clamoring for a one trick pony shape changer...
IMO, any character/player that's taking a class with a shape changing schtick would do their best to 'hit the books' and pick the best options. To a lot of people that are attracted to the class, looking through the book for new forms is a plus not a minus. I'm unsure how many were clamoring for a one trick pony shape changer...
Italicized for emphasis.
Pretty sure that wasn't what ANYONE outside of a given small sample box was thinking of when given the description of the class.
Equally certain that if the class mechanics had been rolled out as an example before release, there would have been the sight of subscriptions and pre-orders being cancelled (I know I would have cancelled my subscription, which I started with this book...)
IMO, any character/player that's taking a class with a shape changing schtick would do their best to 'hit the books' and pick the best options. To a lot of people that are attracted to the class, looking through the book for new forms is a plus not a minus. I'm unsure how many were clamoring for a one trick pony shape changer...
I mean, I don't particularly enjoy poring through the bestiaries, and acknowledge this is a weak spot of mine. They're interesting enough, but this stuff just doesn't stick in my head like other stuff does. So I've avoided "playing a shapechanger" prior to this. So I was attracted by the idea of the Shifter being something I could play, but I would have preferred it to be a class I absolutely would not enjoy playing if it was something other people liked better.
I was sort of imagining the shifter would work like "you can just grab some of the monster abilities that the polymorph options give" (e.g. scent, grab, pounce, trample) rather than having to find a form that gives you the ones you want (like the metamorph does). Alas.
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I mean, I don't particularly enjoy poring through the bestiaries, and acknowledge this is a weak spot of mine.
For myself, I treat it like a caster. I go to one of the online sites, look at the categories that apply and jot down anything that interests me. Then I write them out on note cards, notepad, ect.
That way there is no looking on the fly: I look at the entries that have what I need [i generally bold strengths like flight, scent, swim speed, ect]. it works out well for me.
I can see the appeal of a grab bag shifter, like a PC Eidolon, but I can also see why they didn't go that route after having to unchain Eidolons to get the balance they wanted.
I can totally see the appeal in a shapechanger that doesn't require you to comb through books for obscure "ask your GM if they're available" creatures.
But for such a class, they should also actually have everything in one place, not sprinkled over three books.
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I can totally see the appeal. One of my friends is definitely attracted to
Shapehifting but daunted by bookwork. Of course, even then he still doesn’t like the shifter either.
Personally if I was going to make a simple shifter I would have modeled it after the beastmorph alchemist. Instead of picking animal forms the Beastmorph picks abilities right off the beast shape list. That way you’d only need to reference some specific spells. Expand on that idea and maybe make the natural attacks you use variable too and you’d arguably have something even simpler than the current Shifter but also better encapsulating the concept of a strong and flexible shapeshifter that the class’ fluff suggests.
At the very least I think that woulda been really cool on the oozeshaper to pair with moronic weaponry and play up the fluidly shifting angle.