| 30 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
I had a bit of luck and got to see a glimpse of the new Shifter class (Ultimate Wilderness) and the its hilarious archetype: The Oozemorph of a friend's copy. For me who love to play quirky characters this is a Godsend, but there's plenty of question marks that comes with this archetype.
So I thought we could have a this thread to brain storm and try to figure out how we should tackle the...unique challenges this archetype faces.
First of all a caveat: I only got to pour over the base class and archetype for about 5 minutes so I might very well be remembering things incorrectly; this is all based on the notes I took so I apologise in advance if I messed something up. I should get to read it through again soon though.
For those who haven't had the chance to see it yet: The Oozemorph is an inverse version of the regular Shifter. At level 1 you permanently lose your regular shape and become a new creature that's both your old type of humanoid and an Ooze. So for you count as both types for effects such as favoured enemy (ouch!) and other effects such as spells.
Your new form is that of a shapeless ooze, you can't equip, carry or interact with items at all as far as I can tell. Nor can it talk, be sure to invest in linguistics for sign language!
You do get to use Alter self to assume an humanoid form though, half your level times per day and with an hour/level duration. If you exceed that time you need to make fortitude saves to stay in that form. If you fail you revert back to your original form. The same happens when you fall unconscious.
Later on this power can be used to access Beast Shape I & II and also Giant Shape I.
The biggest question that arises for me is: How is the Oozemorph ever going to be a threat in combat? Granted at first level it gets two natural attacks which it can form from any part of its body, deals 1d6 of either bludgeoning, piercing or slashing. On level 6 and 15 it gets another one. All of these are primary attacks so we get to add our full strength bonus to them.
Having said that they don't seem to get any of the other benefits that the other Shifters get. No way to pierce DR, no damage increase, no special properties. This gets worse if the Oozemorph is in its natural shapeless form since it can't wear any equipment at that time. Amulet of mighty fists? No dice!
Granted it could just be that I missed something, but on the paper this looks like the major problem with the archetype. Someone elsewere mentioned that they get something called "Chemical touch" but I don't recall seeing that myself.
There's also one thing that I wonder about. According to the bestiary Oozes are blind unless otherwise stated. The archetype doesn't mention it at all so...are they?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's kind of confusing that oozes proper can carry items in them, but a oozemorph cannot.
Is it because they are carrying their 'eyes', their 'brain' and their 'humanoid parts' inside them somehow?
Compression is pretty nice, but is an oozemorph allowed to compress themselves into targets and 'grapple from within' or 'blow them up' from internal pressure as they push more of themselves into a given target? Distasteful and disturbing, but merits discussion.
The 'Chemical touch' was brought up in another thread of discussion about the oozemorph and that might be a helpful way of mitigating some of the issues, maybe?
This class has a lot of promise, just needs some insight to help figure it out so it's actually playable beyond a given level.
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure what stops them from holding things or casting magic. What exactly stops psychic magic from working from an ooze? Or arcane with no components [say from metamagic]. What stops item activation?
Honestly, it'd be nice if they told us what the base form CAN do because right now, I'm not sure it can do anything. Do I even have a movement rate?
My GM just pointed out a very interesting flaw.
The major ability of the class is something called *Fluid form*. It is this ability that governs the shapeshifting abilities and it is the one that states that when in an anti-magic field the character reverts to her blobby original form.
Problem is: The ability is ITSELF supernatural. So going into an anti-magic field would do...What exactly? Turn the player back into their original race?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My GM just pointed out a very interesting flaw.
The major ability of the class is something called *Fluid form*. It is this ability that governs the shapeshifting abilities and it is the one that states that when in an anti-magic field the character reverts to her blobby original form.
Problem is: The ability is ITSELF supernatural. So going into an anti-magic field would do...What exactly? Turn the player back into their original race?
The resulting logical paradox rips a hole in reality itself, and you find yourself playing Clue instead of pathfinder...
Dotting for interest.
My GM just pointed out a very interesting flaw.
The major ability of the class is something called *Fluid form*. It is this ability that governs the shapeshifting abilities and it is the one that states that when in an anti-magic field the character reverts to her blobby original form.
Problem is: The ability is ITSELF supernatural. So going into an anti-magic field would do...What exactly? Turn the player back into their original race?
I haven't read anything Shifter related at all, but judging by what you've posted here, the specifics of the Fluid Form ability (reverting to an Ooze in an AMF) probably override the general rule of the Supernatural ability to shift into a humanoid (or even a mobile sentient ooze).
That being said, a thread like this certainly makes me have doubts of the Shifter being even in a functional state. However, we also have Schrodinger's Wizard, so I suppose it's just par for the course these days...
If an Oozemorph goes unconscious or enters an antimagical area, they turn back to a puddle, from the way I've been reading it. The 'fluid form' is considered their 'base form'.
If an Oozemorph goes unconscious or enters an antimagical area, they turn back to a puddle, from the way I've been reading it. The 'fluid form' is considered their 'base form'.
Yes, but it's the SU ability that grants that base form. With it being suppressed, why wouldn't it revert to it's original form? it'd be different if they hadn't put it under the shifting ability but made it it's own EX ability.
And as I pointed out above, the SU ability is a polymorph effect, so you take the movement rate of the form you take: we HAVE no default movement rate for an "protoplasmic blob". I'm also curious if SLA's can be used when spells can't [for unknown reason]. What happens if the base race is a shapechanger? Can my kitsune use it's change shape to take it's human form/fox shape from blob form with it's natural abilities, and if not why? Can it use special move rates [fly, swim, climb]. Can I climb at all [you NEED 2 hands free and you HAVE no hands]. Can you grapple without a –4 penalty for not having 2 free hands? Can I climb a ladder? Do I need to sleep [oozes don't and it's my default form] and am I blind?
This archetype is going to need a series of FAQ's of a whole blog.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
This archetype is going to need a series of FAQ's of a whole blog.
Maybe just a player companion (Ooze's Handbook? Ooze Origins? Blood of the Ooze?) or campaign setting book(Ooze Realms, Path of the Ooze, Inner Sea Ooze, Ooze Adventures?) unto itself.
This archetype is going to need a series of FAQ's of a whole blog.Maybe just a player companion (Ooze's Handbook? Ooze Origins? Blood of the Ooze?) or campaign setting book(Ooze Realms, Path of the Ooze, Inner Sea Ooze, Ooze Adventures?) unto itself.
Blood of the Ooze sounds like a cheesy horror title. Maybe for Goosebumps?
Unfortunately, I doubt an entire book just to clarify what an archetype's abilities actually do really only entertains the idea that said archetype was written extremely poorly and without consideration for what Oozes in generally actually are.
That isn't to say that it is actually the case or that I could have done it better, but without archetype feature entries to be cited (for obvious reasons), and resorting to default rules or ambiguous rules interactions, it can certainly result in ruining a player's excitement or immersion for the class, as well as skewing onlooking perceptions into a negative attitude towards the class/archetype.
Until we are allowed to cite the class/archetype stuff, I'd rather chalk it up as a case of unconfirmed information that is best left to be considered unfavorable speculation.
This archetype is going to need a series of FAQ's of a whole blog.Maybe just a player companion (Ooze's Handbook? Ooze Origins? Blood of the Ooze?) or campaign setting book(Ooze Realms, Path of the Ooze, Inner Sea Ooze, Ooze Adventures?) unto itself.
LOL I think I'd be more likely to buy that that the wilderness book at this point. ;)
|
Well, you can always start as an Oozemorph and then spend the rest of your career taking levels in Cavalier. I wonder if you can stick a bucket onto a saddle...
Failing that, I'm seeing this as the kind of character that HEAVILY relies on party casters if they want to function in their base form. Barkskin, Mage Armor, and Greater Magic Fang all seem to be mandatory breakfast buffs.
The thing that trips me up is whether or not Morphic Weapons accidentally crimps your shape shifting abilities. Becoming a Troglodye is a favorite for many Alter Self users, but are you only allowed to have two of its three natural attacks? Even if it isn't, you're in this odd situation where shaping into a Trog or a Raptor and completely ignoring your ooze weapons is more favorable.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry for the double post, but I just noticed something interesting: Kitsune might be one of the most powerful races for this archetype. Change Shape might just allow you to stay in a humanoid form all day without effort. Add the free natural weapons, and you've got the basis for a completely different playstyle. The stat mods will lean you towards Dex and Weapon Finesse, but you can pick up an Agile amulet of mighty fists without worry.
...that is actually a very good point, Rosc.
And how would folks know if you're actually a kitsune or just forming blob-stuff to be looking like a kitsune if you don't just decide to look human?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am curious.
Is there ever any reason to actually want to be in your base ooze form?
Also! FAQ'd original post, recommend others interested do the same.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am curious.
Is there ever any reason to actually want to be in your base ooze form?
To enter into the Great Link.
I think it'd depend on what the base form gave a character?
I mean, most oozes are slow if memory serves, not typically very dexterous, definitely not wise/intelligent or even *gasp* charismatic. :)
In addition, the compression ability could be exceptionally useful if one say, wanted to pour themselves through a keyhole or the like in some circumstances? Or under a door?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
To enter into the Great Link.I am curious.
Is there ever any reason to actually want to be in your base ooze form?
Or to fulfill the First Contract.
One hour a day in humanoid form at level 1 seems a bit harsh, even if you can prolong it with successful saves.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
If an Oozemorph goes unconscious or enters an antimagical area, they turn back to a puddle, from the way I've been reading it. The 'fluid form' is considered their 'base form'.
Yes, but it's the SU ability that grants that base form. With it being suppressed, why wouldn't it revert to it's original form? it'd be different if they hadn't put it under the shifting ability but made it it's own EX ability.
And as I pointed out above, the SU ability is a polymorph effect, so you take the movement rate of the form you take: we HAVE no default movement rate for an "protoplasmic blob". I'm also curious if SLA's can be used when spells can't [for unknown reason]. What happens if the base race is a shapechanger? Can my kitsune use it's change shape to take it's human form/fox shape from blob form with it's natural abilities, and if not why? Can it use special move rates [fly, swim, climb]. Can I climb at all [you NEED 2 hands free and you HAVE no hands]. Can you grapple without a –4 penalty for not having 2 free hands? Can I climb a ladder? Do I need to sleep [oozes don't and it's my default form] and am I blind?
This archetype is going to need a series of FAQ's of a whole blog.
Caveat: Not on the design team, but the archetype's original author.
That said, the intention is that all of the Fluidic Body abilities are (Su), but the character's base form is now an ooze. Which is why there's the antimagic field callout. You automatically revert back to ooze form but can't use any other facets of this ability (shapechanging and the like). This doesn't prohibit the use of morphic weapons, since that an (Ex) ability.
I like it how shifter archetype can mimic superheroes. As an elemental shifter you can be both the Human Torch and/or the Thing, or as a rageshifter you get to be the Hulk, jumping included.
And yes, as an oozemorph, you're basically Odo.
Caveat: Not on the design team, but the archetype's original author.
That said, the intention is that all of the Fluidic Body abilities are (Su), but the character's base form is now an ooze. Which is why there's the antimagic field callout. You automatically revert back to ooze form but can't use any other facets of this ability (shapechanging and the like). This doesn't prohibit the use of morphic weapons, since that an (Ex) ability.
#1 Thanks for taking the time to come in and reply! ;)
#2 I understand the idea behind it, but making the base form SU means it gets turned off along with the "antimagic field callout" in a antimagic field. To work within the pathfinder rules, base form [with that callout] should be EX like morphic weapons.What was your intent for the other basic stats of the base form, like movement? Was the intent to have flying blobs if you're a Strix and/or does the blog has it's own move?
Sorry for the double post, but I just noticed something interesting: Kitsune might be one of the most powerful races for this archetype. Change Shape might just allow you to stay in a humanoid form all day without effort. Add the free natural weapons, and you've got the basis for a completely different playstyle. The stat mods will lean you towards Dex and Weapon Finesse, but you can pick up an Agile amulet of mighty fists without worry.
Or skinwalker.
I am curious.
Is there ever any reason to actually want to be in your base ooze form?
Good question and there are indeed benefits.
One of them is that you can avoid precision damage, critical hits and flanking entirely. You literally have no weak spots. This coupled with the pretty huge DR/slashing (which you always have, in all your forms) means that rogues and swashbucklers will be almost useless against you.
On level 4 you get a climb speed of 10 when in Ooze form as well so coupled with the compression (which you also get to keep no matter which form you take) you can make a terrifying assassin. Especially since no one would be able to identify you in a line up. :P
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I now have an idea of an oozemorph who literally is the assassin's guild's "Cleaner". When an assassin goes rogue (or swashbuckler ) they send in THE OOZE TM.
Compression is great and all, but if you cant carry any equipment you end up on the other side of a locked door as a naked humanoid.
I think the ability to not carry anything makes the usefullness of compression far less.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If an Oozemorph goes unconscious or enters an antimagical area, they turn back to a puddle, from the way I've been reading it. The 'fluid form' is considered their 'base form'.
Yes, but it's the SU ability that grants that base form. With it being suppressed, why wouldn't it revert to it's original form? it'd be different if they hadn't put it under the shifting ability but made it it's own EX ability.
And as I pointed out above, the SU ability is a polymorph effect, so you take the movement rate of the form you take: we HAVE no default movement rate for an "protoplasmic blob". I'm also curious if SLA's can be used when spells can't [for unknown reason]. What happens if the base race is a shapechanger? Can my kitsune use it's change shape to take it's human form/fox shape from blob form with it's natural abilities, and if not why? Can it use special move rates [fly, swim, climb]. Can I climb at all [you NEED 2 hands free and you HAVE no hands]. Can you grapple without a –4 penalty for not having 2 free hands? Can I climb a ladder? Do I need to sleep [oozes don't and it's my default form] and am I blind?
This archetype is going to need a series of FAQ's of a whole blog.
Caveat: Not on the design team, but the archetype's original author.
That said, the intention is that all of the Fluidic Body abilities are (Su), but the character's base form is now an ooze. Which is why there's the antimagic field callout. You automatically revert back to ooze form but can't use any other facets of this ability (shapechanging and the like). This doesn't prohibit the use of morphic weapons, since that an (Ex) ability.
So happy to see that you've joined us Robert. I want to assure you that we're doing this because we absolutely love your archetype and would like to understand how it works in depth.
If you don't mind could you explain your philosophy on how the Morphic weapons are meant to deal with damage reduction and competing with other alternatives? As I read it doesn't appear to progress in other ways except for giving you more natural attacks.
Was it intentional that the natural weapons of this archetype should be given the same properties as the claws of a vanilla Shifter's claws would at the same level by any chance?
Thank you for making this archetype btw. <3
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On level 4 you get a climb speed of 10 when in Ooze form
But can you actually USE your climb speed? Climb skill:"You need both hands free to climb"... You not only don't have 'both' to use, you don't have any.
I'm seriously confused what is logic between it not being able to cast any short of spell or use worn magic items considering there are caster oozes and oozes using magic items ._.;
The spellcasting throws me. We have no component spells [using metamagic to remove them] and psychic spells [that don't need hands/voice], so what exactly is stopping them from casting? Im lost.
Items: I could understand modified slots or something, but NO items at all? If I can't hold/use magic items, can U use/hold mundane items? Or do I have to sunder/break doors to enter buildings?
The more I think about the archetype, the more it hurts my brain. :P
Thank you for making this archetype btw. <3
I 100% applaud the effort. IMO, it was a great start that just need some tweaking and comparing intent with the rules to get it fully functionable. As it stands now though, I can't see any table/DM where this archetype wouldn't cause some kind of issue.
|
On level 4 you get a climb speed of 10 when in Ooze formBut can you actually USE your climb speed? Climb skill:"You need both hands free to climb"... You not only don't have 'both' to use, you don't have any.
By that reading there's dozens of creatures (a lot of them Oozes) in the Bestiaries that can't use their climb speed. Pretty sure this is a case of specific trumps general.
Yeah I think if you have a climb speed you should be good.
By that reading there's dozens of creatures (a lot of them Oozes) in the Bestiaries that can't use their climb speed. Pretty sure this is a case of specific trumps general.On level 4 you get a climb speed of 10 when in Ooze formBut can you actually USE your climb speed? Climb skill:"You need both hands free to climb"... You not only don't have 'both' to use, you don't have any.
It's not unknown for monsters it ignore PC rules. As to specific trumps general, what specific? Granting you an ability doesn't mean you can use it.
Yeah I think if you have a climb speed you should be good.
It's be nice if that was in print someplace. As far as I know, it's not. It's just one of MANY things that needed to be vetted when making a new/unique 'race' without limbs: all the rules intersections with limbs/hands/feet/ect NEED to be examined to see the ramifications of adding 'no/none' into the equation.
Secrets of the Ooze?This archetype is going to need a series of FAQ's of a whole blog.Maybe just a player companion (Ooze's Handbook? Ooze Origins? Blood of the Ooze?) or campaign setting book(Ooze Realms, Path of the Ooze, Inner Sea Ooze, Ooze Adventures?) unto itself.
I'm throwing money at the screen! Why isn't a book coming out!!! :P
Nice thing about running home games I'll just do it my way.
|
|
As to specific trumps general, what specific? Granting you an ability doesn't mean you can use it.
>_>
Yeah I think if you have a climb speed you should be good.It's be nice if that was in print someplace. As far as I know, it's not. It's just one of MANY things that needed to be vetted when making a new/unique 'race' without limbs: all the rules intersections with limbs/hands/feet/ect NEED to be examined to see the ramifications of adding 'no/none' into the equation.
We have two options here, over-adhere to that line in the Climb skill and thus countless creatures over the years in both DnD and Pathfinder with Climb speeds can't actually use their Climb speed because they don't have hands.
Or, creatures with Climb speeds can use their Climb speed.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
(For the record, only skimmed the oozemorph entry)
How does an oozemorph use stat-boosting or ability-granting magic items that require 24-hour attunements? Even if they make fortitude saves to stay in humanoid form for 24 hours one time, wouldn’t the attunement reset when they became an ooze again?
Good catch Sammy.
It is basically impossible for them to use any 24 hour attunement items
Nice thing about running home games I'll just do it my way.
Oh, in a home game these kind of things are easy to agree on. I play online with lots of different DM's. These are the kind of things that just eats up prep time and then eats into what should be game time. That's why I HATE the 'just rule 0' answer or 'it's up to the DM' as it's of NO help as I have to go through a Q&A to find out the answer every new DM.
We have two options here, over-adhere to that line in the Climb skill and thus countless creatures over the years in both DnD and Pathfinder with Climb speeds can't actually use their Climb speed because they don't have hands.
Or, creatures with Climb speeds can use their Climb speed.
It's not "WE". It's the unnamed DM's out there that look at the climb skill and actually believe what it says is required.
As to "over-adhere", it's like grapple weapons... they give a bonus to grapple but also make a penalty for not having 2 hands to grapple. Seems counterintuitive 'over-adherence' but it's the correct rule. I can't just ignore rules because it makes sense to me. There are PLENTY of FAQ's that don't make sense to be but they are official.
EDIT: to "Granting you an ability doesn't mean you can use it" let me point you to the first prone shooter, a feat that LITERALLY did nothing. Something seeing print is no proof that it is correct or actually does something...
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
but it's the correct rule.You're assuming that, reading the grapple special quality on the weapon it's the weapon making the grapple, not you, you're not using your hands at all. The weapon is taking the place of your hands.
I can't just ignore rules because it makes sense to me.Yes you can, or just read it in the way that does make sense.
EDIT: to "Granting you an ability doesn't mean you can use it" let me point you to the first prone shooter, a feat that LITERALLY did nothing. Something seeing print is no proof that it is correct or actually does something...
Original Prone Shooter doesn't justify the quoted text, since it didn't give you something you couldn't use. As you said, it gave you nothing.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm also confused by oozemorph's inability to use loot in game design point of view .-. I mean, archetype doesn't sound like it gives you something to compensate not being able to use magic items, so is the idea of archetype to be weaker on purpose?
Also, since you can't make use of items while in ooze form, that means you might as well give your share of loot to everyone else ._.;
It's also not specified *which* Ooze it is supposed to be modeled after. Is it a baby Gelatinous Cube? Is it grey? Is it the one that makes people have emotional issues?
Do the natural attacks count as magic because the entire effect is magic/non-magic, even at L1?
Please don't get me wrong, I *want* to see this thing work (and well enough to be in PFS), but... like a lot of things I've seen in this book in general it feels half-formed?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm also confused by oozemorph's inability to use loot in game design point of view .-. I mean, archetype doesn't sound like it gives you something to compensate not being able to use magic items, so is the idea of archetype to be weaker on purpose?
Also, since you can't make use of items while in ooze form, that means you might as well give your share of loot to everyone else ._.;
Oh god I just realized the Shifter is an NPC class. They're a useful, simple bruiser for GMs to use against the party in nature themed games. Their archetypes are all better fit for randomly encountered, memorable NPCs but fall short of PC use. The Oozemorph exists as an interest point in an otherwise forgetful ooze based dungeon.
Except when you attune a thing for the first time, you need to attune it for 24 hours. Which means until about L8, they can't use any magic items that have that sort of restriction, if my math is correct?
4 uses/dayx8 hours each...
L6 would be 3 uses /dayx6 hours each, so that wouldn't be enough time to attune (assuming poor dice rolling luck/inability to say 'it just happens')
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Please don't get me wrong, I *want* to see this thing work (and well enough to be in PFS), but... like a lot of things I've seen in this book in general it feels half-formed?
Well of course it's half-formed. It's an ooze ;)