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SHIFTER


Wood oracle lame-cursed, captain of SteamQest vessel, navigating the cursed sands of demon-gated deserts


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Only one: SYNTHESIST SUMMONER


Dragon78 wrote:

Fortitude saves = base + Con mod + Str mod

Reflex saves = base + Dex mod + Int mod

Will saves = base + Wis mod + Cha mod

what about

Fortitude = base + higher of (STR or CON)
Reflex = base + higher of (DEX or WIS)
Will = base + higher of (INT or CHA)

As reflexes comes in Sensory and Motor types , DEX/WIS makes sense and its an alternative to INT/DEX, which is an already good stat synergy doubly better, as Arcueid also said.

Will based on INT/CHA still makes sense from a certain phylosofical point of view (Thomas Aquinas?)


After 19 years of playing (D&D)&Pathfinder, I can count fourteen campaigns in which our group played for long term, from level one to level 18-25 most of the times. Last five campaigns I played with Pathfinder, we finished at level 18, then 20, then 19, then 25 and again 20. One of those longterm campaign we reached level 100 with a group of 4 (3 plus Master), after 4 years of starting it at level 1.
Half of those campaign I played with same "core group", me and other 4 friends, with some other friends coming and going. Other half of those campaigns I played with friends of friends or some contest/organized play weekly reunion. One of those campaign, I played it 9 years ago, then for some reason it ended at level 10-11, unfinished because "reasons", but 5 years later me and a friend convinced the same master to continue the campaign, and we did it, finding three other guys, and playing it until level 18 and almost completing the campaign, with a Narrative long speech part of the master to make a proper The End.

There are also four campaigns I remember that we played for longterm at strange levels: one started from level 10 and we ended all the story arcs at 25-26; the second one we started at 5 and finished at 19 (grr, so frustrating for me to end at 19 in Pathfinder); the third began at level 15 and ended at level 29-30; last one we started at level 20 up until level 41. There was a campaign also in which we started at level 20, and after the first session, we went back at level 3 and then up as normal.

Then, there are countless of campaign I played and mastered, that lasted one or two sessions at most. I can say that half of those I played with my goodoldfrens, while the other half with some random people. Again, half of the latter were people I didnt know and that wanted to try the d20system fantasy games, and other half were occasional sessions just for fun/boredom/nostalgy/oneshots.

From my experience, either I played campaigns thats lasted for a play or two, or campaigns that lasts long time (which I prefer) from year or two to play until everyone is satisfied (which usually is reaching level 20, and the master plans events and story accordingly).

We have some agreements we reached after that long time playing:
for serious campaigns we go like this:
1) adventure must starts at level 1 and finishes at 20. The master plans according to this. If campaign doesnt get to level 20, the master pays pizza&beers for everyone next time we meet
2) everyone chooses a class and everybody else agree to not play that class, unless everybody plays the same class
3) we choose the day to play to be fixed each week, so everyone plans according to it. The party plays even with a guy missing, or two. The party just plays. For some reason, most of character deaths occurred when that character's player was missing...
5) everybody brings their dice, otherwise playing with the Unlucky Dice (we have an extra set of dice that are really really unlucky)
6) dont resurrect old enemies, especially from other campaigns, especially from other universes. This was broken many times...
7) when creating the character each player chooses a number between 1 and 100 and rolls a d100. If he gets the number he plays an OP character. We never decided what is OP, but it just happend once so far and the player just choose an archetype for free at level one.
8) no PC, no xbox, no playstation, no jbl and ipods or similar. In general no distractions the day when we meet to play
9) there must be someone who brings pawns, someone who brings the laptop and books. The rest must bring beverage&food

If it's not a serious campaign, those previous guidelines dont apply, and nobody bothers, but campaign may end also soon (and it does, no more than three sessions and it's quit).


Catharsis wrote:

1. When a Weretouched deinonychus Shifter grows her claws, do they appear on her hands (giving her 5 attacks at lvl 4) or are they mapped onto her talins like in the major form?

2. In hybrid form, the Weretouched Shifter gains bonuses as if using Beast Shape with a Medium animal. Is it intentional that these bonuses remain the same for Small characters, or should they be +2 Dex, +1 natural armor instead like for a Small animal?

3. Is it intentional that Shifter‘s Edge can be taken at 1st level but has no effect there? Should it say (minimum 1)? That would certainly help make the feat useful. If you have to wait until 3rd anyway, I guess most people will just get an Agile amulet instead.

4. Is it intentional that the Weretouched Shifter stops gaining class features after 6th, except for the form upgrades at 8th and 15th? As is, it‘s almost mandatory to multiclass after 6th...

5. Will the Weretouched Shifter keep Chimeric Aspect or at some point will t be errata'ed/clarified/faqed?

6. Assuming a Weretouched of the Mouse, does the bite attack damage increase when assuming the hybrid form, or does it still do 1d4 damage? And the speed gained of the mouse, should it change wether the shifter is in hybrid form or major aspect form? what about

7. Is it OK to be able to shift in one animal for seventeen levels and suddenly be able to change aspect to any small and medium sized humanoid from 18th level onwards?


Artificial 20 wrote:

For oozemorph, what do people think of this minor tweak for Fluidic Body?

Quote:
Each hour after this duration, the oozemorph must succeed at a DC 10 Fortitude save or revert back to her fluidic body until she rests for at least 8 hours. This save DC increases by 2 for each additional hour spent maintaining the form.
Changed parts bolded. It would fit in the current print-space of the book.

I like your proposal as a good start, but I think Oozemorph needs also more transformation per day right from first level, so t can overcome the blobform limits more times during the day, otherwise finding itself stuck in blob crippled form just after an hour or possibly two of alter self.

Something like "a number of times per day equal to half level plus CONstitution modifier" or changing the mechanic of Fluidic Body to be similar to Shifter's Wild Shape post-FAQ, like "1 hour per day per level plus WISdom modifier, that don't need to be consecutive but must be used in minimum one hour increment".


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Slyme wrote:

In case anyone missed it, here is the latest FAQ update:

Domo arigato, Jello-san

Slyme wrote:


Clears up several things, and makes them mostly playable...still doesn't answer the Kitsune Oozemorph being able to shift into human form at will, since the Kitsune shapeshift is not form dependent.

You are still stuck in your oozelike form the majority of the time up until level 4+

Would it be better if Oozemorph would be changed to have more uses per day from the first level to morph into humanoid? Like 1/2 level (minmum 1) plus Con modifier.

Or better, have the A Thousand Faces, Shifter's new gift, right from first level instead of 18th level? It would be balanced out by the (annoying) fatigue condition after each minute of transformation, while removing for a while all the impendances of blobform and making the class viable. And as side effect would make Kitsune oozemorph less "broken".
The fatigue effect (which is, just for clarity, already included in the Fluidic Body feature) prevents from dipping one level into oozemorph.
It's an easy solution at least for an errata of the pdf...


GodsBlister wrote:
nighttree wrote:

As you have some practical experience....

Originally I was building Oozemorph 4/Brawler from then on...

With the changes (Shifters Fury) I'm thinking the two additional levels to get Shifters Fury and one more Morphic weapon attack may do everything I expected Brawler/Feral combat to do....

So now I'm considering Oozemorph 6...Barbarian/Urban/Invulnerable...I'm building to be as much like a Mezlan as possible (which I can get closer to with controlled rage + rage powers)...

What do you think ?

That seems to be a good idea since you're already heavily invested in Constitution to begin with due to your horrible AC at low levels due to not being able to use gear most of a day. I'd recommend not using Shifter's fury as soon as you get it with lv 6, as 3 primary attacks is gonna be better than any combo of secondary hits + the iteratives, at least at level 6. Later on it could be useful though. also good luck figuring out uses for Compression.

And later, level 12, can access to Raging Brutality, adding some CON to damage of morphic weapons


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Belabras wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I wonder if the best thing for Shifter aspects would be to make them size bonuses instead of enhancement bonuses (a la Elemental Overflow which gives you size bonuses to physical attributes without changing your size). I mean, the reason the bear or tiger or whatever makes you powerful is in part because those things are big.

I don't think making the shifter the rare martial that doesn't want to be the target of Enlarge Person would be an issue.

I'm pretty sure several forms are already getting size bonuses as part of wild shape, so there might be some conflict there.
But you don't need to use a minor aspect to wild shape, so these are separate abilities.

And with Minor Form as a size bonus it would overlap wildshape size penalties like strength when morphing in a small animal, or dexterity penalty when turning into large one.

Dracalawrote: wrote:
Honestly that's exactly how I read it. It doesn't say that you use more charges with Chimeric, it just says you can pick two aspects instead of one when you use a minor form.

Ok, sometimes I have hard times reading in English...


Wait-wait-wait, does Chimeric Aspect consumes double Shifter Aspect time if two aspects are chosen? And so it needs two different swift action to activate?

I thought that a 9th level Shifter could use Chimeric Aspect to gain benefits of two different aspects, using 1 minute increment (as it were only one aspect active) and with a single swift action

Vidmaster7 wrote:
At that you could just make them un-typed. or make up a type for them.

Seconding this. Maybe size boni? Like the kineticist class after the playtest


Rayfa wrote:


- the channel spirit feat : the rules are not clear to me, there is a discussion here. I will try to look at what it actually does.

What about then, pressing the FAQ button on that link?

Meet you there to talk more about that feat


Having the Shifter now A Thousand Faces, how does that goes with thematic of each archetype? I mean, for Oozemorphs it's good to have an unlimited way to morph into any medium&small humanoid, but for Elementalist and Weretouched shifters isnt that weird?

Also, will the weretouched and Elementalist get some love here? The first one is still having Chimeric Aspect, with no use for it.
The second one has elemental forms with no listes speeds, senses and natural attacks... And still no mentions to what energy corresponds each Element (this is easy fix). Also maybe is there a chance that Elemental Strikes will FAQed to work with elemental form?

Changes so far are appreciated, thanks


Good guide, I liked that you pushed more on the versatility and using all spirits instead of focusing only in one. Although both styles, versatility vs focusing, are rewarded with the Medium class.

Just noticed that there is no mention of the Channel Spirit feat, which is the ultimate way to accomplish versatility during the day.
For a Medium that feat is pure gold, forget the NPC part because you can easily manage the amount of time to spend channeling (five minutes for example, equaling to five minutes of NPCing, which the GM probably wont bother).

Finally, you cannot combine Spirit Dancer with FiendKeeper archetypes, as both alter the Spirit class feature.

Would be good to see a part in your guide of ProTips on what to do/choose for each spirit, like what set of spells are good in certain situations for Hierophant and Archmage, or what skill put ranks and what other skills are best to leave with no ranks to use later with Trickster spirit


Ventnor wrote:
I must admit that the Leshykineticist archetype looks quite fun. Any idea about how effective it actually is?

Don't know about effectiveness... But that archetype looks groovy!

And the image is so awesome and hilarious at the same time: I can imagine a battle between two leshykineticists to be something like this


Take these feats:
Empower Spell for extra damage (remember, it will empower the 1d8 +10 tptal),

Benthic Spell to bypass eventual fire immunities,

Ascendat Spell feat to be able to cast a mythic flame blade for 1d8 + 20 damage, then multiply this for 1.5 for empower and add charisma.

To be able to cast it as Ascendant Spell, take the Spell Perfection feat, then Additional Traits feat for the Magical Lineage trait, choose Flame blade, to reduce its metamagic level by one).

I prepared a character similar to that, if interested take a look, in my idea it was a Bloodrager. Up to this day never had a chance to play it:

Spoiler:

_Class
bloodrager Enlightened Bloodrager, Metamagic Rager
bloodline elemental (fire)
enlightened spellcasting produce flame, flame blade, pale flame, flame strike

_Race
human
FCB +LV rounds of bloodrage
traits magical lineage (flame blade),
stats 10,10,13,10,10,18

_Feat
1 Point-Blank Shot
1 Two-Weapon Fighting
3 Flumefire Rage
5 Empower Spell
7 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9 Flame Blade Dervish
11 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13 Benthic Spell
15 spell Perfection (flame blade)
17 Ascendant Spell
19 Rapid Shot


Ryan Freire wrote:

I disagree with the idea of separating them from the classes as a whle. Siege mage and Gun mage both hammer the wizard class, but at the end of the day, those classes still have 9 level casting off the most powerful list in the game.

[...]

That's the way to compile a list of "Worst [Class + Archetype]"

Anyway, I agree that can be multiple ways to look at what Worst Archetype can be seen and evaluated.
I look for example at archetypes as clothing: even the nicest/prettiest woman wearing a s+%%ty/very extravagant/out-of-contest dress, cannot save that piece of clothing by being bad. The lady would still be wonderful. Dress would be bad and not recommended to wear.

As a personal note, the monk of healing hand capstone is wonderful for story purposes, while Siege Mage is not by far that memorable.


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Gathlain Kineticists got more love in Ultimate Wilderness: with Tree-Born alternative racial feature, Gathlain lose their penalty to Constitution!


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666bender wrote:
Unsworn Shaman >> why? it's not even stronger then the vanilla one.

Minor Spirit vs Spirit class feature::
Minor Spirit lets you choose from Shaman or Witch hexes, while the standard Spirit class feature limits only to shaman hexes (which are inferior in number to teh witch).

By 20th an unsworn gets 6 hexes per day which can be from Shaman list or Witch or choosing from one of her two wandering spirits (which also changes everyday), while a standard shaman will have 8 hexes chosen from the list of her chosen Spirit at 1st level (a standard shaman can have exactly one witch hex, choosing the right hex), while also getting 2 variable hexes chosen each day from wandering spirit chosen or her standard spirit.

There are various witch hexes which are quite useful at low to mid- level (sleep, prehensile hair, peacebond, flight) , meaning that an unsworn gets to use them and later when advancing in level, but the winning point in favor of Unsworn is that it can change her hexes from low levels, adapting to adventure, while a normal Shaman is stick with whatever hexes he has chosen (and to remark, having chosen a single Spirit it can choose from that spirit hexes list only, while an Unsworn of 2nd level can choose an hex from his current wandering spirit, that can change on daily basis).

Wandering Spirits:

Standard shaman have one fixed spirit and one wandering spirit chosen each day, both of which have access to greater and true abilities faster in respect to the Unsworn two wandering spirits. Not too much difference in levels, it's two levels earlier at most. The key of power here is to have more Wandering Spirits, since those can be chosen each day of adventure, meaning the character can adapt more to difficulties. Also, Spirit Magic becomes more useful&stronger the more wandering spirits you have. Guess what? Unsworn shaman has two wandering spirit instead of one of the standard shaman. As a minor bonus, the unsworn shaman's familiar gets a different bonus each day chosen from the selected wandering spirits of the day. A standard shaman's familiar gets the spirit animal bonus of her chosen spirit at 1st level.

Comparation on Spirit Magic:

Spirit Magic for an unsworn is superior having two wandering spirits while a standard shaman having only one. Unsworn gets it at 2nd level though, a shaman at 1st. An unsworn has a wandering spirit right from 2nd level and an extra one at 6th, while a shaman from the 4th. Playing at low levels with soo much variation is fun and reward adaptive playstyle.

Final considerations:

Standard Shaman has wandering spirit and wandering hex to be versatile or to add more power, has more hexes (2 to 4 more), but most of those are restricted to the chosen spirit.
Unsworn shaman have some lag for some class features like Spirit magic (only for the 1st level) and Greater&True Spirit (unsworn stays two levels late), but also gains earlier Wandering Spirit. Also the unsworn gets an expanded list to choose for hexes (witch list and chosen wandering spirits of the day).
In terms of power Shaman and Unsworn are almost the same. In terms of versatility, Unsworn has the edge.


Alchemist Beastmorph (replaces some minor alchemist abilities at exchange of empowering mutagens, which is a major class feature of the standard class. And stacks with any other ability or spell, even polymorph effects)

Barbarian Invulnerable Rager (Almost every barbarian I saw was like this. Uncanny dodge is overvalued, having more damage reduction makes for the loss of it anyway)

Bloodrager Primalist (very modular archetype since you get to choose which bloodline powers to replace, and many of the bloodline powers don't compare to two of Rage Powers)

Cleric Divine Strategist (most players I saw dont bother having only one domain, actually they prefer it more than choosing two domains, which are boooooring)

Hunter Packmaster (can do the same as Hunter except gets to have multiple companions. Even if taking one single companion it's stille the same class)

Investigator Empiricist (did saw only two investigators and both players agreed that "it's just an improvement of standard investigator, because Poison are suboptimal/subpar thing in Pathfinder")

Magus Fiend Flayer (it doesnt replace anything and adds more)

Medium Spirit Dancer (it's just the class how it was supposed to be from the beginning)

Monk Qinggong (autoexplanatory, see Unchained Monk, it's an automatic feature for the UnMonk to have access to qinggong powers)

Occultist Silksworn (I post it cause majority of players keeps saying that, but I personally disagree for Panoplies, both Trappings of the Warrior and Mage's Paraphernalia are very good, also psychic casting plus medium armor is wonderful for a gish build, which is a lot of occultists around)

Rogue -any archetype that replaces trapfinding and/or trap sense only (the trapper forced theme for the rogue class is too much niche. And bonuses are low in number and circumstancial)

Shaman Unsworn Shaman (Too strong for the possibilites, it's hard to write and explain it, you have to try it)

Swashbuckler Inspired Blade (if the intention is fighting with rapier, then Inspired Blade is superior to the standard swashbuckler in almost everything. The only real nerf is the panache that recharges only thorugh criticals, which is easy achievable, also is not that easy to deplete the Panache pool)


Wow a lot of the archetypes mentioned so far are archetypes I do really love in concept!
Sadly I have to agree thou, while being great in concept, they are clunky/underwhelming/broken ( read as "not working",as once was almost the Bolt Ace with no proficiency in crossbows )

Adding to the list both the Havocker Witch, for being a witch with no patron and no hexes, in xchange for kineticist's base simple blast with some infusions to apply levels later for price of burning spell slots (and no gather power or internal buffer, no other ability to reduce the burn, except using spell slots); and Phantom thief Rogue, guilty of transforming a PC "class" to an NPC. Best NPC class btw.

Also Dasrak is right, value of archetype should be separated from value of class itself. There are many archetypes for Druid and Wizard class as an example, which have terrible features swaps (feral child& elemental ally for example, trading wild shape for... traps?? or what about elemental companion which also replaces the nature bond of an animal companion and don't allow creatures summoned through summon nature's ally spells???), that go unnoticed and seen as "OK" because those classes still can have full spellcasting ability.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Hi everybody, next year a friend of mine wants to run a campaign based in Iblydos and heavily focused on Ancient Greek style myth.

I want to build a warrior type character who might not be the strongest, fastest or smartest but is basically the most invincible.

So I'm looking for tips on how to create someone who is nigh-unkillable and I'm willing to sacrifice offensive power to do so.

My requirements are:

Primarily Warrior-type class levels (Barbarian/Fighter/Brawler etc)
Incredible Saves
Good DR
As many and as much Energy Resistance as possible.
Stacks of HP.
Good Charisma (This is a secondary thing).

I actually don't care that much about AC, as I think it'd be thematic to take hits regularly and just soak them up.

I know these boards know how to build an Achilles without that dodgy heel, show me what you got.

Everything of that you can get from Fighter, mostly from Advanced Weapon Training and Advanced Armor Training. Very greeky style would be to fight with shield and a spear, thanks to the feat Shield Brace . There are some AWT which increases fighter's reflex and will saving throws and initiative as well.

Or what about a Medium (the class) focused on Guardian spirit?
Being focused around Guardian spirit, gives proficiency in heavy armor, shields and tower shield, resistance to Acid, Cold, Fire, Electric, Sonic equal to HALF LEVEL, damage reduction HALF LEVEL /-, ability to block attacks directed to allies, bonus to AC.

As a Medium, your character will have naturally high Will saving throw, decent HP and med-high charisma.
With guardian spirit add a +1 up to +6 (can reach more with feats and items and archetype or gillman race) to Fortitude and Reflex savings, meaning it catches up with good saving throws, then adds the same bonus to AC and Constitution checks.

For the attack part there not too much benefit from Guardian Spirit because of medium bab, and simple weapon proficiency only. But there are two routes which are still viable in melee:

a) going through Spirited Charge feat, attacking with lance on mount will do triple the damage, just have to hit once (and medium bab it's still good at that)

b) have natural attacks, which they will attack at maximum bab

For route A, it will need martial proficiency with Lance. You can then optimize the damage adding Power Attack and Combat Stamina. Why combat stamina? because the build benefits from high constitution, synergizing well with combat stamina, and then because of Spirited Charge, you can spend stamina points up to Strength modifier to add damage to the charge which is also tripled if charging with a lance.

For route B, go Tengu or play a Fiendkeeper Medium archetype. With dark communion of Fiendkeeper, character gets instantly two claws and a bite. Instead of Tengu any other race which has some natural attacks is still good (catfolk?). Just remember to full-attack both with manufactured weapon and natural attacks.

Or route C, get Antagonize feat and get beaten instead of allies. Then heal later with some hierophant spirit... At high level with diehard feat chain and the Deathless spell it may work even better.


PhD. Okkam wrote:
45ur4 wrote:

Among occult classes in terms of power and versatility: Medium. Medium class can change from day to day its main features, which dictates its role. Medium can even change skills with the Trickster or spells with Archmage or Hierophant. If archetypes and feats are also a thing when speaking about Power and Versatility, I should mention: Channel Spirit feat, to channel a spirit during the day and still benefits of spirit bonuses, adds more versatility during the day to the typical Medium. Then Spirit Dancer, archetype. This is the apotheosys of versatility. Combine the two for dramatic results.

Here some builds of versatiles Medium characters:

** spoiler omitted **...

Round Ears and Blended View do not match in the first build.

For the first build, the storyteller's archetype would fit, or not?

Good catch, I played an entire campaign with that and never saw "low-light vision" as a prerequisite. For purpose of this thread those traits can be disregarded, as they are not a main thing for that build, aside from Magical Lineage Only if picked through the bonus feat of Paragon Surge, so you can change it every 24 hours.

Storyteller archetype for the first build is still viable. Thing is with Legendary Influence and Improved Legendary Influence, that build would start every day with 4 influence points with Storyteller, which translates into having penalties of archmage spirit (hierophant is still tolerable) and as soon as using any class feature that increases influence, to lose control of the character.
Another good one for the Spellcaster build is Uda Wendo archetype, to have extra spells from domains.

There should no fear in playing the Storyteller or the Uda Wendo in a campaign: if death happens, can still be played as a Reanimated Medium


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Among occult classes in terms of power and versatility: Medium. Medium class can change from day to day its main features, which dictates its role. Medium can even change skills with the Trickster or spells with Archmage or Hierophant. If archetypes and feats are also a thing when speaking about Power and Versatility, I should mention: Channel Spirit feat, to channel a spirit during the day and still benefits of spirit bonuses, adds more versatility during the day to the typical Medium. Then Spirit Dancer, archetype. This is the apotheosys of versatility. Combine the two for dramatic results.

Here some builds of versatiles Medium characters:

Spellcaster Medium:

reanimated medium

halfelf (round ears, blended view, shadowhunter)

stats CHA>CON>all others

_Feats
1 channel spirit (hierophant)
3 channel spirit (archmage)
5 toughness
7 intensified spell
9 empower spell
11 quicken spell
13 legendary influence (spontaneous metafocus)
15 improved legendary influence (spell perfection)
17 ascendant spell
19 summon guardian spirit

_Spells
paragon surge (additional traits[magical lineage])

The goal here is to be a master of spells, choosing the needed spells each day from wizard class with the Archmage spirits, or gains access to the cleric spells with the Hierophant. This medium can be played both offensively as blaster, or supportively, with utility, crowd control, summons and healing (super healing with the hierophant channel and cleric borrowed spells).
With Legendary Influence feat each day you may choose a different spell for Spontaneous Metafocus and Spell Perfection, opening lot of potential for blasting spells like telekinesis, sirocco, battering blast. You never get bored.
It's important to be an halfelf to have access to Paragon Surge spell, adding lot more flexibility, especially if taking the feat Additional Traits for Magical Lineage trait.
Reanimated medium archetype is there because the build easily starts the day with Influence increased, in this way removing the penalties of influence instead of having them.

Spirit Dancer:

medium spirit dancer

human lich template??

traits (fate's favored, defensive strategist)

_Feats
1 Divine Fighting Technique (way of the shooting star)
3 two-weapon fighting
5 double slice
7 channel spirit (archmage)
9 improved two-weapon fighting
11 possessed hand
13 hand's autonomy
15 greater two-weapon fighting
17 noble scion (war)
19 channel spirit (hierophant)

With Spirit Dancer archetype you can change from round to round what class feature have, from sneak attack to spells, to extra attack and damage to channel like a cleric. The weak part is that Spirit Dancer cannot use those much time per day, just rounds per level plus charisma. The trick here is to use the Channel Spirit feat outside combat, to benefit from extra skills of Trickster, or extra spells from Hierophant. Then when you know you are going to battle, just end the channeling, and after the npc moment go battling with spirit dance alterning from Champion to Archmage or Guardian.
This build is focused on having highest charisma possible, then with divine fighting technique of Desna you can attack with charisma with starknifes. Noble Scion of war is there for charisma to initiative.

Skillmonkey:

medium

grippli

_Feats
weapon finesse
spirit focus (trickster)
spirit ridden
weapon focus
slashing grace
VMC rogue

_Spells
0 detect magic, ghost sound, grave words, stabilize, prestidigitation, open/close
1 long arm, expeditous retreat, detect undead, anticipate peril, ant haul, remove fear
2 heroism, purge spirit, rope trick, spiritual weapon, false life, nondetection
3 scrying, dimension door, greater invisibility, fly
4 summon monster V, teleport, deathless, telepathy, reincarnate

In this case the medium is built mainly around the Trickster spirit, which lets you select two skills each day to have maximum skill ranks. If using Spirit Ridden feat then it's an extra skill to choose each day that comes with maxed skill ranks.
In most of adventures having a lot of skills and a small spellcasting ability is enough.
For combat part it starts weak, but grows strong as soon as you get Surprise Attack (it's a sneak attack up to +6d6).
Variant multiclassing is convenient way to roll extra sneak attack dice and adding trapfinding, when choosing Rogue.
Grippli race is there because the grippli favored class bonus adds a +1/4 to all skills affected by spirit surge, which for the trickster translates to a bonus to Every skill...
Build is dexterity focused. Oh having a lot of initiative with the Trickster bonus you can prepare ambushes or scout areas.

Master Medium:

_Class
Medium Fiend Keeper

_Race
gillman
FCB +1/6 spirit bonus

_Feats
1 noble scion (war)
1 divine fighting technique (shooting star)
3 channel spirit (trickster)
5 channel spirit (archmage)
7 channel spirit (hierophant)
9 channel spirit (marshal)
11 channel spirit (champion)
13 channel spirit (guardian)
15 legendary influence (spirit focus)
17 possessed hand
19 hand's autonomy

_Equipment
any medium armor with spirit bonded property

This is similar to spirit dancer, trying to get the most of Charisma ability score. But it's a normal medium, so it has more endurance and spirit surge uses to be a good Marshal. Channel spirit feat is there to have access to any spirit type and change them during the day, which is not possible for a standard Medium .Fiendkeeper archetype is there mostly to have the increased bonus to Spirit Bonus. Legendary Influence feat with Spirit Focus is to have an extra +1 to Spirit Bonus. Spirit bonded armor adds an extra +1 to spirit bonus. Finally the gillmen favored class bonus adds another +1/6 to spirit bonus. Spirit bonus is a very good class feature for the Medium, so the highest the best

long speech about Power and Versatility of classes:
Occult classes are really good and thematic to play, also psychic spellcasting seems to be more "user friendly", especially for the no-material components thing.

That said, I will give my opinion both on my perceived side and actual experience, first with a small bullet list of points I consider when I'm looking for power and another one for versatility (de facto I consider Power and Versatility as two different parameters)

To be powerful:
-able to deal with a challenge of a CR higher X levels from his level. The more challengies it can surpass easily the more powerful it is. An example is the wizard which can use many different spells combined with a lot of skill ranks and deal easily in almost any situation, even fighting versus monsters alone.
Also, the higher the CR in a single field the class can deal with, is equally powerful. An example is the Barbarian or Fighter in a typical campaign which can outmelee easily any monster at equal CR, or an Investigator which can easily surpass any non-fighting urban and social challenge, like solving puzzles, get informations from lore or asking people, anything in which intelligence is involved.

-have a lot of expected powerful abilities that are, in a tacit agreement, recognized as superduper/must have. The more the class have of those abilities, the more powerful can be considered. Also, the sooner (read as "lower the level") the class can have access at those powerful abilities is a sign of power, by breaking the tempo of the campaign or overtaking the gamemaster. Finally, the more uses per X time the class gets, the more powerful the class is.
For the list of powerful abilities, that should deserve a separate thread on the forum, it would be interesting to discuss also about it, but for now I safely can throw a list of them and might be valid in majority of cases: flight, invisibility, teleport, telekinesis, pounce, healing, summoning, any polymorph augment/buff.
Similar abilities are equally valid. Counters to that abilities, like see invisibility or dimensional anchor, are equally valid.

-have power to share&receive. This is a tricky one. There are some class features that lets you add power to other classes. This is a powerful thing, especially in a cooperative playground, it means that the group will not be just the sum of the players/characters, but more of it. Both classes that can share a lot of powerful abilities and that can "receive" are powerful in terms of potentials. One example is the Skald&Bard, which can buff every member of group, easily and give exactly the same power to everyone as it gives to himself. The fighter from other side is a class which have lot of pluses, numerical advantages and lot of very specific/situational feats and features, being above to other classes in those terms, but lacking powerful abilities (see point 2 of the list, above). BUT if the fighter gets teleport from group support or from an item? And if fighter receives flight as well? The fighter will benefit from any of those. This is subtle, but balance of some classes is placed on dispensing powerful abilities (like Shifter class, it was given polymorph abilities, which are recognized as being powerful, so Shifter has the polymorph ability in the table, while a class from the fighter gets weapon training. Guess what? Polymorph abilities are not that rare, so they can will be added to the fighter's group via magical items and spells from the group spellcasters. That weapon training class feature which give untyped bonus and is a prerequisite of many good combat feats and class archetypes? Not really common to find...)

To be versatile:
- able to adapt, both improvising or changing class features (like spells prepared is the most common one) to surpass a challenging situation. There are some class features which let change their selection during the adventure day. Those are great for adventuring in terms of versatility. Alchemists for example can prepare any extract they know in one minute per extract. Brawlers can add extra combat feats to thei repertoire very quickly in combat. Shaman can change their spirits and hexes and spells from day to day, like they change almost all the class, being totally unpredictable and unstoppable.

- ability to have multiple ways when confronting a situation to deal with it. This is a thing alchemists can do it awesomely. They have lot of skills, then they have "spells", then create potions, mutagens and discoveries. And good combat proficiencies. And bombs. And have bonuses when using random alchemical mundane object or poisons. When facing a problem, an alchemist has just to pick what feature to solve it.

Can be versatility be a sign of power? yes, it may be. Having a lot of versatility will contribute having greater power. But is not the only factor, sometimes there's just an efficient, both in time and material resources, combo that can be use in every situation, and game master will have difficult time to deal with it (more because if one of the players is too much above the others, it will be harder to balance encounters).

Disclaimer: I may have mixed causes and effects and put alltogether in the bullet list


Zwordsman wrote:

the last one, Int, is one i'd very much like to play.

Would love if the Oozmorph gets taht ability to combined attacks into one.
would flavor so well

Spoiler:
here it goes:

_Class
oozemorph shifter

_Race
human (Comprehensive Education racial feature)

_FCB
all levels to skill ranks

_Starting stats
12,12,14,18+2,8,7

_Feats
1 snapping turtle style
1 improved unarmed strike
5 kirin style
9 kirin strike
13 combat stamina
17 combat style master
VMC wizard (arcane discovery: knowledge is power)

So with high INT gets a lot of skill ranks, then extra ranks for fav class bonus. High INT also means good damage for kirin strike. Combat Stamina is there to have kirin strike damage bonus constantly.
With VMC wizard gets access to Knowledge is power and adding INT modifier to all maneuvers checks and CMD.
Somewhat the build benefits something of IUS feat, because of the iterative attacks with IUS plus the extra natural attacks from morphic weaponry. Snapping turtle is there only to get Combat Style Master, for having Kirin Style active from beginning of combat...


Seconding the idea of more elemental defenses!
What about another special subcategory of defenses, like counters/contingecies? They can be used as immediate action only after a condition is met, something like this:

-Solar Flare, burns one ranged manifactured weapon directed to kineticist, dealing Xd6 damage according to burn invested. Burn also increases the number of simultaneous attacks, extends the reach of the flare (at some point it burns projectiles even before they reach the kineticist). Solar flare may be also used to counter any attack with [water] or [cold] descriptor, as if counterspelling.

- Diamond Shell, kineticist gains hardness against one attack, equal to double burn invested. Melee attacks that deal no damage (including from damage reduction and other abilities which may reduce incoming damage) are deflected entirely to another adjacent target. Burn invested also increased the range at which the target can be to be targeted by the deflected attack. Diamond Shell may be also used to counter any attack with [air] or [electricity] descriptor, as if counterspelling without preparing an action.

etcetera

Maybe kinetic counters/contingencies may be used investing some burn at same time when filling the internal buffer, but those points are invested in the selected counter/contingency instead. Then those burn points disappears as soon as the kineticist activates the kinetic counter/contingecy.


Zwordsman wrote:

VMC= Varient Multi Classing. allows you to trade feats for specific abilities from other classes.

-----

True. Lay on Hands would work. Albiet I don't really like Paladins often.. (Mainly code issues with my GM.. I like the idea of a paladin that follows his own code of conduct that falls iwthin the lines of Lawful Good.. and I dislike worshiping dieties since I don't know how to RP that at all and haven't had fun with it in the past.)

I do quite like that idea though.. Granted such a late start to the paladin for loh.
VMC is a fun idea though. I've looked at a few.

Honestly I really kind of enjoy the idea of Magus VMC. Get that elemtal touch attack thingy.. get my acid damage back.

Granted spell strike doesn't work great with mass of natural attacks..
but if the Eratta to Oozemorph includes Morphic Weapons being buffed a bit.. and preferably including the WONDERFUL IDEA of fusing multiple hits into one big one instead.. it would be great again for me.

---------

Last bit being a question
"An oozemorph’s base form is not that of her race but rather that of a protoplasmic blob that has the same volume and weight"

Sooo..... are you a puddle of ooze? or is this implying you are the same shape and form of your previous form.. just compeltely oozy?
I'm sort of assuming your just in a pile of gloop ala Dragon Quest

Spoiler:

In the current campaign I'm playing our gamemaster built 6 major villains, which are the bosses of a criminal organizations in Black Bureau (a city like Gotham of DC comics, but with medieval fantasy setting, as a typical campaign of Pathfinder).

Each of those bosses is actually a Shifter Oozemorph with a VMC attached to it and each one maxing one different stat.

The strength one is built around dazing assault and VMC Fighter.

The dexterity is a small race (we dont know the true identities) with VMC rogue and some feats to do ambushes ( maybe owl style? ).

The constitution oozemorph is the dumbest, but more brutal with VMC barbarian and the rage power to add constitution to damage rolls.

The wisdom oozemorph boss is a flying one, it has VMC monk and some style feats to add wisdom to damage rolls and do some counterattacks.

The charisma one, is for sure a kitsune with all magic tails feats, maybe it has VMC paladin or bard, not sure yet, but some buff for attack and damage (this bastard is one of the most hated so far, because he assumes a lot of different identities with changing forms and with his high charisma he always has an edge on our investigations).

Finally there's the scientist who started all this crazyiness, an oozemorph focused on intelligence, with a lot of skills, VMC unknown, with kirin style feat to add intelligence to damage as soon as he wins knowledge checks and some other feats to do crazy high rolls on combat maneuvers.


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nighttree wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:

VMC= Varient Multi Classing. allows you to trade feats for specific abilities from other classes.

-----

Huh....not something we have ever used....where are the rules for this ?

Pathfinder Unchained book, you can read them also here in d20pfsrd


nighttree wrote:
Well at least it won't be feat starved.....

Perfect class candidate for VMC options.

Like barbarian VMC, to increase STR and CON, or the rogue VMC to get sneak attack on morphic weaponry, or monk VMC for total awesomeness


Dragon78 wrote:

You mean something like an instant immovable rod but any object?

Still would like to see earth, water, and wood get an ability to create permanent structures like bridges, walls, shelters, forts, castles, etc.

YEP

It would make everyday life so much easier&fun&creative


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Aether Glue, to glue objects into mid-air


About Morphic Weaponry, the first question to be answered/cleared in a FAQ is: it's that class feature a natural weapon itself or do an oozemorph choose a specific natural weapon (bite, gore, claw etc) each time?

Concrete example: a character with an oozemorph level wants to take weapon focus feat to benefit with natural weapon of Morphic Weaponry.
Does she apply it like this " Weapon Focus (morphic weaponry" or this Weapon Focus (bite/claw/gore) and then forms a "bite/claw/gore" with morphic weaponry feature to get the +1 to attack roll?

Same to weapon focus goes for Weapon Training of fighter class feature. If it's the latter interpretation then a fighter oozemorph can get +1 to attack and adamage rolls of morphic weaponry if she chooses the Natural group


Can an oozemorph uses rules for throwing melee weapons to throw his newly generated morphic weapons after each attack? Because that would be AWESOME


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from "Ultimate" "Wild"erness wrote:

Damage Reduction (Ex): At 2nd level, an oozemorph gains

DR 4/slashing while unencumbered and either wearing
no armor or wearing light nonmetal armor.

This might be an hint for either interpretations between:

- keeps abiding the vote of nonwearing metal armor and shields, plausibly losing benefits of Su and Sp class features if violating the druidic code
- or, Oozemorph lost the nonmetal code thing in proficiencies, but still cannot use for some reason light metal armor to gain Damage Reduction

Or, it's just a verbatim: someone forgot the nonmetal word between light and armor


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
45ur4 wrote:

This is the best class of Pathfinder, and of course it can shine in unarmed fighting as well.

Of course there's nothing to debate at this point anymore. When you will realize it, fav this post. That's all. Easy peasy.

Oh this is pretty good....too bad oracle curses make this a big no no for me.

Then, as Grumbaki and PossibleCabbage mentioned, consider a non-big-impact curse. Some like Wrecker or Haunted are just boni/plus for an unarmed build. If it's an home game, can ask maybe to GM to not have a curse at all.

Anyway curse aside, there's not too many class out there that gives you unarmed damage as a monk while having good armor class, good numbers (bab, basic saving throws, hit die, skill ranks) and that may have spells. Up to ninth level.

I mean just look at blood crow strike spell, that lets attack with unarmed attacks at crazy medium spell range. An oracle can even quicken it, to do a double fullattack. Or ascendant it, and fire resistance is gone. Or even Reach it to long range!
What about oracular spellstrike with force punch channeled trhough unarmed strike? empowered intensified dazing please

Not mentioning all damage scaling from unarmed strike when increasing in size with one of the many spells an Oracle can cast...

And an ascetic oracle can be effective at many styles if adding the Warsighted archetype


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I played one focused mainly in Intelligence, Dexterity as secondary. The goal was to have the most out of intelligence:lot of skill ranks, spells and arcane pool points, having also a lot of spells, higher DC, having good melee accuracy with arcane acccuracy arcana and dealing good melee damage with Elven Battle Focus. Mainly played as melee combatant with spells used outside combat and pre-buffing, using a lot of arcane accuracy. Bladed dash spell wash shining. Later added combat reflexes feat, lunge (to prevent aoos and concentration checks) flamboyant arcana to get Opportune Parry and Riposte, then spell shield as magus arcana to improve defense. With a lot of arcane pool points and extra spells i could buff easily everytime. With lot of skills i could manage a lot of situations versus environment and other npcs. Later I took a familiar and improved familiar to have a Cassisian angel to wear as an helm. Awesome. Was a figment + sage familiar, used mainly to have all more skill ranks, and used that like the AI of Iron Man (Marvel). I roleplayed it also to unmask it easily in social situation to making the helmet familiar dissipate, and reappear later in combat. I played it till level 13th, when I learned telekinesis and started to use it combined in an spell combat... I was also starting taking two-weapon fighting chain feats to fight with two elven thornblades, but campaign finished shortly later after leveling up to 13th


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Hi
Any chance to see Aether, Wood, Metal and other typical fantasy elements as Jins for the Sha'ir Occultist?

No "that's up to your GM/depends on your play table/can be a good houserule" admitted

Aaand any chance to see printed in future an archetype for Medium class which makes him more Kineticist related, like maybe Elemental Spirits?


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Robert Brookes wrote:

Aldo, if folks wanna discuss archetypes I designed for Ultimate Wilderness I did:

Elementalist Shifter (shifter)
Fiendflesh Shifter (shifter)
Oozemorph (shifter)
Rageshifter (shifter)
Verdant Shifter (shifter)
Weretouched (shifter)
Commando (gunslinger)
Feral Champion (warpriest)
Filidh (bard)
Water Dancer (monk)
Wasteland Meditant (monk)
Menhir Guardian (monk)
Cultivator (bard)
Nature Bonded Magus (magus)

I wrote other parts of the book, too, but those are probably the most fun to talk about at the moment!

About the elementalist Shifter:

designing questions
1) what's the reasoning behind not allowing Elemental Strike class feature during a polymorph effect, like Elemental Form class feature?

2) what about restricting Elemental Strike to melee attacks? Wouldn't be thematic, aside as cool, to apply it to ranged attack or even make energy balls ranged attacks?

3) Elementalist keeps Final Aspect class feature of Shifter, shouldn't it get modified considering that Elementalist doesn't gain a fifth aspect at that level?

4) Why no Aether? Or wood element? it may be good fit for the same book to put some Wood related powers

5) what's the idea of limiting speech and language during Elemental Form? Just consistency with base Shifter class?

mechanics questions
1) elemental strike mentioning energy infusing attacks depending on element chosen. I'm blind, I cant find the part which says what energies are associated to each element, I guess it's like: air -> electricity, fire -> fire, water -> cold, earth -> acid?

2) Elemental Form, it's written "but she gains only the benefits listed in her elemental aspect". Does that mean that it discards normal rules of polymorph gaining base speed and natural attacks of the morphed new body, right? If so, why each elemental aspect then gives Improved Natural Attack (Slam)? It seems to imply that the slam attack of elementals creature is acquired

3) a Shifter at 20th may combine all of her minor aspects, this stays true for Elementalist Shifter. Should this work with Omnielementalist class feature, accessing so to each combined power altogether?


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This is the best class of Pathfinder, and of course it can shine in unarmed fighting as well.

Of course there's nothing to debate at this point anymore. When you will realize it, fav this post. That's all. Easy peasy.


daydark wrote:

45ur4 those are some cool ideas.

I necro'd this thread in hopes to stir up some additional discussion on making Warlocks viable.. I'm dying to play one and am hoping people can share more ideas on getting the most out of mystic bolt & other class features.

Thanks, personally I like the route of Kirin Strike + Combat Stamina, loving the synergy of having high intelligence = lots of skills/knowledges = higher damage of kirin strike feat.

If playing a Kasatha or polymorphing into, more fun out of multiweapon fighting


Necro-reply ^2!
What about using Kirin Strike with Stamina points to increase Mystic Bolts damage?
And Channel Spirit feat also to invoke a Champion, gaining +1 to hit and +3 damage to mystic bolts attacks


pH unbalanced wrote:

So I was just looking at putting a Medium together, and one of the things that I noticed was that the lower the point-buy of the game, the more useful a Medium was.

In a 15 (or, goddess-forbid, 10 pt game) your ability to move your stat-bonus around daily becomes more valuable. No matter which spirit you use, your casting stat is always CHA, so you're paradoxically a rather SAD character. Just don't dump any of your stats, and you'll be fine when you need to focus on them.

Add in Divine fighting technique of Desna and Noble scion of war feats, then contact the Lich archmage legendeary spirit to start the lichdom path at higher levels. The SADdest of any Medium life


Rub-Eta wrote:

1) Yes and yes.

2) This feat does not use the influence mechanics.
3) A Medium can not dismiss a channeled spirit. If you have preformed your class feature seance for the day, you can't use the feat for 24 hours. If you lose the spirit from breaking the taboo, you cannot channel spirits of that legend for 1 week (this should override the feat as well). But you can probably channel a new spirit after this.
4) The Spirit Ridden feat is it's own feat and nothing is mentioned to exclude it from working with both this feat and the class feature.
5) You can not share the seance boon, since it's not mentioned anywhere that you can.
6) It says "Select one of the spirit legends available to a medium", not "Select one of the spirit legends available to you". You can only select the spirits available to a regular (non-archetyped) medium.

All in all, the feat is pretty s@*@ for a medium (or anyone, really, as getting NPC'd is about the worst thing that could happen, since you don't get to play). I only see any value in it if you don't start your day by using your class feature for some extra flexibility.

1) Why so? If that's the case, Channel Spirit is great when taken for Archmage, Hierophant and Trickster spirit types! A medium could change her selection of spells/skills every hour solving any particular situation. If becoming an NPC is a concern, then just channeling archmage for a couple of minutes just to cast spells, then stop, then go crazy for a couple of minutes only, which is acceptable for what's in return.

2) I am not so sure. The feat seems to imply that the character gains no taboo nor influence, not saying either "starting influence" nor "any influence at all". Maybe this is written with the idea that nonMedium characters would use it and would have no Spirit Powers (the only thing aside spirit surge that can increase the influence), so no need to limit the feat.
3) Dont know why using the Medium class feature should prevent using the feat, they're separate things supposedly. But as you're saying it in the second part, you may lose the spirit channeled through the class feature via breaking the taboo, then as you answered in 1) any Medium could use the feat again and again in the day.
4) True. It just seems... wrong. But as you said, it's RAW
5) RAW true
6) Again, RAW true. Kami medium would love to channel Archmages, or even the Lich or Nex...

My conclusion it's quite the opposite, but this is a personal opinion. For my game experience this feat it was great for my Medium to speed up its versatility sometimes "repairing" what it seems broken/missing in the standard class. It was also splendid for the spirit dancer, to gain more "stamina" and use extra skills&spells more times in the day.

The great things about the feat are:
channeling a new spirit each time just to change the previous one selections, in the case of trickster for skills and archmage/hierophant for spells;
gain a spirit without having to care about influence, well could hurt a bit to Marshals;
Medium still gains Spirit Powers for the spirits of the feats!

Bad things:
character becomes an NPC. Meh, that's not fun. You say it. At least the time spent channeling (and consequently the same time to be passed as NPC) is manageable, even in minutes or seconds, so just "don't channel spirit via the feat for more than couple of hours continuosly" is a good rule of thumb;
influence-increasing abilities might not be usable (question opened, see point 3), so decreasing the usefulness of Archmages and Marshals. Champions and Hierophants are untouched, just to say...


CBDunkerson wrote:
I'd say it simply can't be done... you are incapable of calling another spirit while channeling one via the feat. You would need to stop channeling your current spirit... at which point it takes control of you for some number of hours... and then only when you regained control could you use your normal Medium seance.

It seems reasonable. I guess that using Trance of Three could be possible to channel a spirit from the feat and one from the Medium class feature...

And what about the starting questioms?


Chess Pwn wrote:

My issue with spirit dancer is noted above and copied below.

Quote:
And the spirit dancer archetypes don't work so well at this because you'll often want to have a certain spirit for hours at a time. Like how good is the dancer at a dinner party? I'm drab and lifeless UP UNTIL the 6-12 seconds that I make the check in. Be horrible at chess, UP UNTIL the 6 seconds that the check to decide winner is done to be awesome, then finish fatigued? Want to use cure wands to heal up? Better not need it since you don't have the rounds to heal up with.
if you had 1 minute per contact and roughly equal uses of the ability it'd probably be more worthwhile, then if you need to heal your party you actually have time to and not be worthless for the rest of the day. Rounds limit worth great for good combat boosters, rage, bane and bardsong. But once you factor in OOC uses to the same pool of combat uses, you don't have enough. If barbs had to rage the entire time it took to heal them with wands they'd never have enough rounds of rage to fight with.

Channel Spirit feat really improves Medium's life, even for Spirit Dancer. Seriously that feat is incredible, up to the point that any Medium won't use his normal seance anymore. Spirit dancer will love using the feat to channel Archmage and hierophant spirits in downtime.

While we are at it, there are some questions pending for that feat

From my game experience, the Medium class without the aforementioned feat (taken at least twice) or an archetype (specially the Spirit Dancer) is not fun as fun, but still playable and enjoyable if focusing in one spirit type only and channeling that everyday. Guardian and Marshal are the two spirit thpes that won't make the medium a subrogate of other classes (like the champion spirit with the fighter class), so opening for many interesting concepts that are not doable/replaceable by other characters.


Another question:

Channel Spirit feat wrote:
If you have the spirit class feature, you can’t use this feat and act as a vessel for a second spirit simultaneously

What happens if a Medium has channeled a spirit via the feat, then calls another one with his class feature? Does the new one overrides the first or does the new seance just fail? This is more prominent for Spirit Dancer Mediums


Fromper wrote:
swoosh wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:


Doing that lets you go with the Champion legend as your primary legend without having to rely on your penalized strength.
That would help, but I think the biggest trouble from the OP's post is that the champion spirit is overdone and boring moreso than how good or bad it might be for this particular build.

Yeah, but I'll probably end up just going that straight champion route. Weapon Finesse and racial rapier proficiency, along with all the champion's bonuses and the archetype's additional bonuses could be good enough. I'm considering TWF and just carrying a dagger as my second weapon, so I can channel a lesser champion spirit for more surges per day until level 6, since I won't need any extra proficiencies.

Just a little boring and generic, and doesn't take advantage of the class's flexibility, which somewhat defeats the purpose of playing a medium. And on the off day that I do happen to use a different spirit, I won't have to worry about losing weapon proficiency.

Ok don't want an archetype? But what about the Channel Spirit feat? That improves greatly a Medium' versatility, depending on the campaing and your plastyle. Just instead of doing a normal seance in the morning, do wait for the campaign to evolve, then start the feat seance to gain the bonuses of the chosen legend (need skill training on the fly? Want that particular and very specific spell that would have helped a lot?), then just stop the seance and repeat until you know you are going to adventure or combat a lot, in which case it is going to be more useful doing the normal class seance to get the benefits till next day. That feat is going to change a lot your versatility. You can also use that feat many times in the day.

Also, give this archetype a chance , cuz it changes your "casting stat" to one of the two grippli improved ability scores and it increases flexibility. Thanks to Channel Spirit you are not going to be a dead weight when finishing the rounds per day of Spirit Dancing


Fromper wrote:

So has anyone come up with any sort of viable adventuring medium that doesn't focus mostly on the champion spirit? Or even if they do focus on that spirit, can you pull off any combat style effectively other than a big, two handed weapon and Power Attack?

[...]

Any other suggestions for medium builds that don't just try to impersonate a barbarian with a great sword?

I've played these differents Medium and had a ton fun:

A catfolk Uda Wendo Medium mainly focused on Trickster spirits. The main goal was to have a lot of skills ranks, coupled with the trickster spirit bonus that applies to ALL skill checks it makes for a great SkillMonkey. I've also taken the Spirit Ridden feat, meaning that every day I could choose 3 different skills to be very effective (craft, use magic device, knowledge were frequent choices). Have taken weapon finesse and some Channel Spirit (archmage, hierophant) to cast some spells when needed or downtime. Finally at 17th using greater polymorph to charge-pounce-rake-grab while dealing 6d6 extra precision damage was amazing. Abeast literally both incombat and out of combat. Also Uda Wendo plus archamage/hierophant = win

A centaur relic channeler focused mainly on guardian spirits. With a fullplate adamantine armor, a mithral heavy shield and a impact lance, then took the Spirited Charge feat and the Combat stamina feat then finally barroom brawler and that Natural Jouster, made this a beast. Combat stamina give more damage for spirited charge and makes barroom brawler usable as a swift action (which I used to pick occasional other feats to combine with stamina points, like Improved disarm or Improved Trip, which also thanks to Combat Stamina feat did ever required a high intelligence score). Also, while the guardian is not great on precision and damage, the Spirited Charge feat makes up for that. Even if the GM would have disabled taking the centaur race, it would have worked by changing into another race and taking the Animal Ally feat to get a Charger mount

A human kami medium with a Sage Shikigami, a warrior combatant (GM allowed only NPC classes to be taken as cohorts with Leadership feat) and a Wolf animal companion, gifted by the Animal Ally feat. This was focused on Marshal Spirits and taking that human FCB to have so much spirit surge rerolls (which thankfully to the kami medium archetype, is possible to accrue from first level, because the kami medium has the Taboo class feature from 1st level). Swift Aid feat, bodyguard feat and Benevolent armor&weapon with traits that augmented Aid Another action (forgot the name) with a morningstar wielded twohanded. The best thing was that Insipiring bonus which Marshal gives as intermediate power, to apply the spirit bonus to attack rolls&damage of all your allies.

Lastly, a kitsune spirit dancer focused on two.weapon fighting with two Agile wakizashis. Then added Possessed hand feat and hand's autonomy which were very useful for two-weapon attacks and having an extra attack/action per round, all while being supercool temathic and freak. Bought a couple of Channel Spirit feat (archmage hierophant), just to have more durability during the day adventure in town or other safe locations to save spirit dance rounds for combat and ambushes. Very powerful and adaptable, it was unstoppable...

I hade some minor retrainings, one worth to mention for the kami medium to get rid of the Channel Spirit (archmage) feat when the GM decided that it could not be used by a kami medium. The kick for any Medium is Channel Spirit feat, so any medium can channel spirit that are useful in some situations, than go crazy, then make his normal class seance for prolonged and undisturbed benefits or start another feat seance.


Anyone?


1. The channel spirit feat says that a medium gains spirit powers as normal, so for example when channeling an Archmage a small list of spells must be selected. If then the medium chooses to summon again the archmage in the same day via this feat, does he have the same selection of spells or can select different spells?
2.doesn't the last sentence of the feat says that a medium gains normal spirit powers?
3. And 5. I know that I can ask the GM, indeed is the first thing I did as usual for every sensate player. Im asking here on the boards mainly to confront opinions of other gm/players, but also to know whats RAW and RAI about it.
4. I see that in the same way, but it seems to contradict the intention of channeling a spirit with seances. Both the medium and the channel spirit feat keep on repeating that a character cannot be possessed by more than one spirit at the same time. Spirit ridden seems to be not, maybe there is a missing line?
6. I think that the first line is speaking mainly to non-medium characters to direct them to go reading the spirit types described in the medium class.

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