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Josh-o-Lantern wrote:

4d6 9

4d6 16
4d6 9
4d6 12
4d6 11
4d6 11

That's going to be unusable... oh well.

4d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 4, 2) = 13 8

4d6 ⇒ (1, 2, 4, 2) = 9 15
4d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 3, 5) = 18 11
4d6 ⇒ (2, 3, 3, 6) = 14 12
4d6 ⇒ (4, 2, 1, 1) = 8 7
4d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 2, 4) = 13 12

My roll didn't meet the qualification for reroll but I want to see if my luck improved... from a 12 point buy to a... 6... NOPE!


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4d6 ⇒ (1, 1, 6, 2) = 10 9
4d6 ⇒ (1, 6, 5, 5) = 17 16
4d6 ⇒ (4, 1, 3, 2) = 10 9
4d6 ⇒ (2, 4, 3, 5) = 14 12
4d6 ⇒ (3, 5, 2, 3) = 13 11
4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 2, 6) = 12 11

That's going to be unusable... oh well.


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Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

It lets you grow 2-4 primary 1D6 natural attacks of any damage type.

You can do it in any form.

As long as the form has less than 2-4 natural attacks of it's own


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


So, in the efforts of theorycrafting (and in the belief that some kind entity is watching this thread waiting for perfect insight) what would we need to do to Oozemorph to *fix* it?

First thing they need to do is reverse the entire damn class... I don't want no NOT be an Ooze. I can play dozens of classes with 100s of variation archetypes and be a humanoid. I don't want to suffer for a few levels just to fight to be a damn humanoid. It's called Oozemorph... lets me morph into a freakin ooze. Willingly, without being crippled by it.

While we're at it, attach it to a better class. There is no saving this without reworking the Shifter so give it to something like Slayer or Ranger.


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Introduction: Why do you want to play a Shifter?... No, seriously, why? I got nothin'...


pad300 wrote:
nighttree wrote:
Slyme wrote:

I know they are aware of it, I was just wondering if making a rules thread for it instead of an advice thread might bump up the priority in answering it.

They sure didn't take long to post a FAQ about nerfing the one shifter ability.

That was a quick fix.....many of the other fixes needed are far more complicated, and are going to take a lot more time to look at and figure out what needs to be done ;)
I'm not sure I'd call it a fix, more of a unnecessary nerfing... Seriously, yeah, it was extremely strong as a feat, but Shifters pretty clearly need something.

Shifter might need something but that feat did need addressing too... good feat in the hands of Shifter... GREAT feat in the hands of the Warpriest Archetype!


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Don't know if it's been brought up but do you know what I find confusing... Why does it use Beast Shape and not the very spell introduced in this book, Ooze Form?! Spell's not great but it's far more fitting...


You're the GM I assume so you can do whatever you like... but Contingency Teleport works just fine


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Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:
Let me see if I got this correctly... At level 1, with a 20 in Con, I have a Fort of +7... I can assume Humanoid form ONCE PER DAY... So I have a 55% chance of being all but completely useless to the party for 23 hours a day... Should I pass I have a 60% chance one hour later... This has to the be the very worst archetype in the entire game for what is already a very sub-par class...
At least now there's a definite answer to the age-old question "what is he worst class for a one level dip?"

It seems this might actually not be true... It's been brought to my attention that as an Ex-Shifter you lose all (SU) abilities... Oozemorph only has one... Take one level of Oozemorph Shifter, immediately teach someone Druidic and now you've got Compression, Morphic Weapons & Ooze Empathy... Hold out one more level for DR 4/slashing if you really want to...


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QuidEst wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Ooze form can do low-level combat just fine (when nobody is relying on magic items, having 2d6+2*Str is great). That’s about it.
Did I miss something in the book because as I read it your damage is capped at 1d6+str.
But you get two attacks.

That's what I thought but I wanted to make sure. The classes lack of damage scaling vs the base Shifter is so disappointing. Shifter's might be pretty poor compared to Warpriest and Monk but at least it's SOMETHING.


QuidEst wrote:
Ooze form can do low-level combat just fine (when nobody is relying on magic items, having 2d6+2*Str is great). That’s about it.

Did I miss something in the book because as I read it your damage is capped at 1d6+str.


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You know what... every time I look at it it confuses me more... You give up every feature of Shifter with the exception of Track and Trackless Step... You aren't even really you original class. You get none of the minor/major benefits of the aspects that even made this class slightly unique... You get none of the damage scaling in your natural weapons... and the biggest sin of all? The freaking art for the archetype looks AWESOME...


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What confuses me the most about this archetype is that you are trying to fight against it's negatives just to be a normal humanoid most of the time. When I play something I want to EMBRACE the neat oddities, not min/max them away to just be functional.


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Let me see if I got this correctly... At level 1, with a 20 in Con, I have a Fort of +7... I can assume Humanoid form ONCE PER DAY... So I have a 55% chance of being all but completely useless to the party for 23 hours a day... Should I pass I have a 60% chance one hour later... This has to the be the very worst archetype in the entire game for what is already a very sub-par class...


My best suggestion for swashbuckler has always been 1st level SB and 19 levels of ANYTHING ELSE. Blackblade Magus is my personal choice when combined with Inspired Blade.


Only 4 years late to the conversation...


Occultist / Unchained Rogue


In almost 30 years... never.


Kaouse wrote:
I would strongly suggest Inquisitor, especially if you can use an Unchained Monk Zen Archer. Evasion + Stalwart, full saves, good AC, great skills & out of combat utility, full BAB if Unchained, what more could you need?

Zen Archer and Unchained Monk are incompatible.


Inquisitor... Flurry of Bows + Bane... ew...


Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor + Unchained Monk


Grandlounge wrote:
Yes but hunter trick can be use 1/2 animal hit die plus wisdom. At level 10 that's 5 times. Some rounds you may use 2 or 3 as a lot are free actions or immediate actions. Bodyguard, aid another, Broken Wing Gambit, Paired Opportunists are all day.

At 10 for me it's more like 7 time as my group uses Automatic Bonus Progression and rule it applies to companions. I'm already a bit feat strapped with Cornugen and company so I feel, at the moment at least, that I'm doing rather well.


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Well, Bard has a number of used for putting point into them but other than entertainment and possibly distracting people... I guess Perform: Surgery could be helpful! xD


I would side with it strongly depending on what caused the damage. A spirit slow siphoning your life essence, probably not. A poison attacking you muscles could cause many aches and pains though.


Devilkiller wrote:

Bodyguard isn't exactly a debuff, but it can have a similar effect by making your PC harder to hit (perhaps the PC would return the favor with Mounted Combat)

Broken Wing Gambit + Paired Opportunists (perhaps shared via magic saddle) could be fairly strong and might give you a fun way to punish foes who try to make an AoO on the animal during Upending Strike.

The Skirmisher Trick Vengeful Strike (which I have) is a tad better than BWG as I don't provoke extra attacks and the resulting attack isn't and AoO so it can be used while Grappling. Super fun part though is that with Grab, if they hit my PC, I get a chance to lock them down.

Hunter by default already shares all of it's Teamwork feats with it's animal companion so the saddle is unnecessary.


It's not going to be a huge issue I don't think. Between reach and Mantis' having Lunge, I can be out of AoO reach often enough.


Yes, but it's a combat maneuver the requires a "to hit" roll using a natural or unarmed strike, hence my current confusion.


Armor bonus is not armor.


When a creature has the Grab special ability, is the free Grapple attempt follow a successful Claw attack a separate attack for the purposes of on hit effects?

Example: Lets say I have Vine Strike cast which reads "any creature hit by your natural or unarmed strike must succeed at a Reflex save or be entangled". On a successful attack and following Grapple, would they have to make one or two Reflex saves?


Azten wrote:
Samsaran with Mystic Past Life.

If you read the whole post he already said that's not something he is going to do.


So I'm playing a Hunter with the Verminous Companion Archetype and decided to build my Mantis companion as a debuffer. Eye for Talent gets my bug a +2 Int so I don't lack Tricks and bonus for level goes into Int to open feats.

Currently I can:
Cast Vine Strike on Mantis (+1d6 damage, Ref or entangle on hit)
Skirmisher Trick: Upending Strike (Free Trip on hit)
Mantis: Grab (Free Grapple on hit)
Power Attack -> Cornugon Smash (Free Intimidate on Power Attack Hit)
Amulet of Mighty Fists: Cruel (Sicken when striking a Shaken foe)
Hurtful (Free attack on Demoralize)

Getting a foe Prone, Grappled, Shaken, Sickened and possible Entangled all on one turn is really nice, but I'm curious if there are options I'm not seeing to add more to this.


Sirocco + Tar Pool


I can't really give you anything more than a link to Undead type entry. In it there is no listed immunity to criticals.

EDIT: The type listing is also in the Beastiary, so I guess you'll not find it there as well?


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No they don't. The undead entry does not list it.


Jodokai wrote:
Cuup wrote:
No. If this is how the Gm wishes to run an encounter, as far as the standard rules are concerned, he can certainly allow a character to move up to the obstacle and Acrobatics to jump, then finish his movement, and maybe even attack the target if he's reached it, but it WOULDN'T be a charge. The same would happen with the invisible barrier example.
What keeps it from being a charge? It was a straight line and nothing impeded his movement. All the bases are covered.

if viewed from above, nothing. if viewed from the side...


As to the first question, both change your form, so if you're a tornado and you trigger and ability that turns you into a lightning bolt, you stop being a tornado. I'm unsure as to the form you return to at the end of your lightning rush but I'd probably say back to orc.

arcanine wrote:
If I got 2 lvls Titan mauler can I hold a Orc double axe in one hand and get the shield bonus? If Titan mauler treats a two handed weapon as a one handed weapon for all intensive purposes. Dose that mean it would be a one handed weapon for a magus too?

I'm not bringing this up to be an jerk but the phrase is "For all INTENTS AND purposes"


One of these days we'll get an official ruling...


I repeat, Charge states: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

No where in that FAQ or the rules for charging nor pounce state that you receive the +2 bonus to hit and anything other than a single attack.


None of that addresses whether all attacks while pouncing serve as candidates of the charge attack bonus.


Lady-J wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:

I guess that would dependent on if all attacks count as charge attacks. As I understand it, when you charge you must attack the opponent you charged. So if all attacks are considered charge attack they would all carry the same limitation. If that are not charge attack then I suppose you can attack whomever but you'd likely not get the +2 to hit on them either.

As to Haste+Pounce, it's magic, get used to it.

you don't have to attack the same creature with all pounce attacks just a minimum of 1 but you still get +2 to all the attacks as charging gives you +2 to hit and -2 to ac for the momentum gained from charging. however there are a few pounce like abilities which stipulate that all the attacks from those pseudo pounce abilities must be against the same target

Having looked this up before I have found no definitive answer to whether all pounce attacks count as charge attacks.

Charge states: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

The bolded has been argued to mean that a charge attack is only a single attack in your pounce routine and the others are simply normal attacks, but it has also been said that the wording exists only to define the normal interaction. As far as I can tell it's never been addressed officially but feel free to provide a link to any ruling I have not found.


I guess that would dependent on if all attacks count as charge attacks. As I understand it, when you charge you must attack the opponent you charged. So if all attacks are considered charge attack they would all carry the same limitation. If that are not charge attack then I suppose you can attack whomever but you'd likely not get the +2 to hit on them either.

As to Haste+Pounce, it's magic, get used to it.


I'd think just about any combination of the 6th level casters would do quite well.

Hunter, Summoner or Divine Hunter Inquisitor are all great on their own with a solid tank pet.

Magus, Warpriest and Vivisectionist Alchemist make great melee damage dealers.

Bard, Mesmerist, Skald and Investigator work to shore up most gaps.

Honestly I find them all better than all the rest. If I could banish all the 9th level casters I wouldn't hesitate. I find them more balanced (save for the normal summoner) and versatile than all the other classes.

Personal note though, depending on your PCs level of optimization, it shouldn't be too big of an issue. I tend to find the Adventure Paths far more forgiving than stuff any GM has built for me in my 20+ years. If run mostly straight I find I don't need to optimize a character at all for them and always have room for more flavor-over-power character options.


Derklord wrote:
I'd say it's still rage and can't be stacked.

Just like Fighter's Weapon Training is different than Swashbuckler's Weapon Training, Rage, or in this case Shifting Rage, is different than Bloodrage. Both grant different bonuses and thus stack. What you allow in your games is on you, but as far as RAW is concerned I see nothing that implies they do not.


One thing the Mooncursed has over the Core Barb that I was thinking is that it can dip a level of Bloodrager with little overlap. You'll need to investing in Extra Rage if you want to do it more than a few times a day but it's worth noting.


RaizielDragon wrote:

I think the loss of armor benefits (because of Polymorph effects) completely negates the NA bonus, since, at best, it will break even, but more than likely will actually be a loss.

As a Lizardfolk, I'd already have a swim speed, and a bite (though not low-light or dark vision, like I thought...). I'd also have claws, which is about equivalent to having a single tail slap.

With my build I planed on taking Beast Totem for the Natural armor so I'll be getting some nice Claws to go with it but between Guarded Stand and Imp. Beast Totem I'll have a nice +6 to AC around 10ish. Add in the Bloodthirsty armor anchant that Mooncursed gets better benefit from on a +1 Breastplate, I will have a nice 28AC while Raging at level 10. A ring of Prot and a Buckler should round things up nicely.

Tyrant Lizard King wrote:

Don't forget the bonuses from size increase at lvl 11 as well. One size larger for all damage rolls, +1 to CMB and CMD, -1 to attack rolls and AC, 10ft reach, grab.

Lvl 20 offers Huge, increasing all of those bonuses and penalties.

You might be leaving out that the size increase lowers Dex which adds the CMB, so it effectively negates itself.


RaizielDragon wrote:
Size doesn't affect what can/cannot be grappled. A tiny creature can grapple a colossal creature, if their grapple check is good enough (good luck with that with the special size modifiers though). If you just mean because of the special size modifier, that's a whopping +1 for being large, which I took into account in my comparison anyway.

Could have sworn the "one size category larger than you" thing applied to Grapple... it's part of Bull Rush, Drag, Overrun, Reposition and Trip... but it's not part of Grapple... the one that actually makes no sense for it not to be on. Odd.


RaizielDragon wrote:
I'm still not sold on Mooncursed based on the above comparison I did. Is the +4 AC and slightly increased damage dice really worth the loss of accuracy, CMD, Fort, Ref, and Will? CMD will especially be important for a grapple build.

While the comparison isn't wrong, I still prefer Mooncursed. The size increase gives you more choices for what can be grappled. The accuracy isn't a large loss since all primary attacks use your full attack so it's not like you'll be dealing with the regular -5/-10/-15 of tertiary attacks. Setting also matters a lot, for instance will this be for an Adventure Path? Cause those things are alarmingly easy for even lightly twinked characters. As to the saves... well my table uses Unchained as the only barbarian so it's not a Fort loss for me, Ref isn't a HUGE deal most of the time, and Will, I plan on taking Iron Will for my Croc cause I want a Plover familiar (through Familiar Bond) for theme reasons but yeah, the Will is the only real loss from the Archetype for me and even then it's only a -1 after the feat at level 11 (and who cares about level 20).


Tyrant Lizard King wrote:
Mooncursed adds the crocodile features but you lose the bonus to STR and CON from rage... but you do gain a swim speed and later on the Grab ability.

I'm actually a huge fan of the Mooncursed. Sure you don't get +4 to STR and Con... but you do get +2 STR and Nat Armor which go great with Beast Totem and Guarded Stance for a nice tanky gator. The loss of -2 AC makes Bloodthirsty Armor so much better. The size increase to large/huge later on is a better damage increase that the +2 STR you're giving up, not to mention reach. Lets not forget those same size increases vastly help grappling later on. Finally the best part... you're not a croc all the time. No pesky NPCs treating you like a monster.


Revisiting this with an updated build.

Would it be worth it to take a level in Bloodrager? Do the Fastmovements stack? Do the rages?

Race: Human
Class: Mooncursed (Crocodile) Unchained Barbarian
Str 19
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 10

01 - Familiar Bond: Scholar (feat), Iron Will (feat)
02 - Lesser Beast Totem (rage)
03 - Power Attack (feat)
04 - Guardian Stance (rage)
05 - Hurtful (Feat)
06 - Beast Totem (rage)
07 - Cornugon Smash (feat)
08 - Intimidating Glare (rage)
09 - Reckless Rage (feat)
10 - Greater Beast Totem
11 - Improved Natural Attack: Claws


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This link covers my entire opinion on the topic

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