My concern in that regard is while there may be nothing in the rules about non-sensible scaling, the people doing the adventure design will do such scaling under the idea that skill use should challenge the players.
Like the mayor the characters try to convince at first level is equivalent to a third level character, but the same mayor when dealing with tenth level characters is now equivalent to a 12th level character. Or that the wall of the fortress is now built of smooth adamantine instead of rough-hewn rock to make climbing it more difficult, simply to be difficult.
My only real issue is with someone who is just trained can treat 6 patients at once. Personally, I would prefer that trained can heal 1 person, expert 2 at once, master 4 at once and legendary 6 or 8 at once.
I'd also like it to explicitly state that the patient cannot take any actions while being treated ("Sit still, darn you") and if they do you have to start again.
N N 959 wrote:
He wanted to play a ranged hunter type character. He didn't want to go two weapon nor did he want an animal companion. (The druid was going the companion route.) If I remember, he also didn't like the monster hunter, which left crossbow ace as his first level class feat. It was also the reason he went half-elf, as he didn't want another class feat, and the general feat he would have taken was fleet, so he took half elf and got low light vision at the same time. (He took fleet as his third level general feat.)
He didn't really like any of the 2nd or 4th level feats, so he decided to multiclass cleric. At first it was so he could pick up deadly simplicity at 4th for crossbow, but he also wanted to be able to use divine scrolls and wands. Since as a multiclass you have to actually be able to cast the level of the spell for scrolls and wands, he took basic spell casting instead, choosing magic weapon as his spell and buying a few scrolls and a wand of heal. This gave us a backup healer.
He was the MVP for the manticore fight, being one of two characters with decent ranged capability (the other being the bard's magic missiles). He cast magic weapon on the crossbow and with crossbow ace wad dealing decent damage. With a dex of 18 and magic hide +1 armor, he also had the highest AC in the party. He was the one who had expert in survival, too.
After the fight, with the druid and bard mostly out of spells, he used his wand to heal those who were still injured.
In doomsday dawn part 2 we had a half-elf ranger crossbow specialist who multi-classed into a cleric of Abadar. He used hunt target to power his crossbow ace feat, but the reduced penalty never came up (because crossbow reload speed).
The player said that it was the only way he could get the ranger to work like he wanted. He was pretty effective for the parts that we played.
I have a player who likes playing support characters. You know what her favorite class in PF 1 was? Kinetic Chirurgeon. She loved the class. She said that it was the first time she felt like a real healer, because the healing wasn't limited in how much healing she could do, but how much healing the others could take. She also had backup abilities to help the support role (slick for making people trip or drop their weapon, kinetic cover for battlefield control) plus an okay damage to contribute to damage.
It was an interesting way to play, really. The group was never in danger of being killed, but as the day progressed, they became easier to knock out, so eventually they would have to rest to clear all of the non-lethal damage. It did seem that they were much more willing to press forward, even "injured", because there was less of a fear of losing their characters.
Since PF2 is getting rid of non-lethal damage, I'm not sure how such a class would work. I'd still like to see a similar class.
Okay, let's say you are a level 1 crafter, trained. Someone commissions you to make a dagger, and is willing to pay full price (2 sp). You pay 1 sp for raw materials (let's assume you already have the artisan's tools you need, even though they are 50 sp). It takes 3 days for a level one crafter to make a level 0 item. Afterwards, since you want to make money, you check the chart on page 148 to see how many days it takes to reduce the cost instead of using sp to just complete it. A level 1 crafter can reduce the cost by 1 sp/day. So, after 4 days, assuming you don't fail, you make a dagger that earns you a sp. If you do fail, start over.
If you are making a longsword, it works out the same except it costs 5 sp up front, and takes 8 days, earning 5 sp.
Now looking at practice a trade, you see that as a level 1 trained crafter, you make 1 sp a day, don't have to pay upfront costs and don't technically even need to pay for artisan tools. It's the same 1 sp/day you were reducing the cost by for crafting, just abstracted out. You even make a few copper even if you fail the roll.
As you go up a level, the amount earned is still comparative. The amount you reduce the cost by per day for crafting matches what you would earn for practicing a trade, without worrying about buying the materials or finding a buyer for the completed item. All that is abstracted out to make it simpler.
If I was the GM, and you wanted to go through all the effort of finding a buyer and making the item, I'd let you, but would point out you would make more just by using the practice a trade rules.
Staff of Minor Healing
For chapter 2 of Doomsday dawn, the druid was deciding between a Staff of Minor Healing and Hide Armor +1 as her level 3 magic item. She liked the fact that she could substitute slots for charges, since it meant you didn't have to memorize heal spells. Then she noticed that using it with either charges or slots still cost resonance.
Her response: "You mean I have to invest a point of resonance and it still costs resonance to use? Screw that, I'll just use a wand of heal instead." (She used a word a bit stronger than "screw".)
She did convince the barbarian to use one of his level 2 items for a backup wand.
My group just finished part 1 of chapter 2. We had and elf and a half elf with a speed of 35, one of which was a druid who cast longstrider on the other two party members upping them to a speed of 35. The party got to the start of the encounter section with 8 miles left on the third day. They got to the top of the mountain and the door of the temple by end of day 4. No camels needed.
The way they are going, they are going to completely miss the Night Heralds.
One of my players is looking at taking ranger with cleric multiclass for chapter 2. He will be worshipping Abadar and take Deadly Simplicity with crossbow. That along with Crossbow Ace means he will be doing 1d12+3 with it. He will also be able to use a wand of healing (level 1) to assist with the healing needs of the party, as well as a couple of cantrips for emergencies.
Since the full round by round description runs for multiple pages, I will sum up and just include the comments. Please let me know if you want the full description of each and every action by the players.
First thing. All the players had fun. Yes, they had issues with some things, but overall they enjoyed the first adventure enough that they were willing to do the next chapter. So good job there.
The group consisted of a axe and board dwarf fighter, a halfling rogue, an elven wizard (conjurer) and a human cleric of Saranae.
The Fighter went str 16, dex 16 and wore chainmail, so with a raised shield his AC was 20. This saved him multiple times, especially on second and third attacks. Also, shields in general were much more important than I thought they would be (both the fighter and Cleric used shields). Also, add a shield boss, it's worth it. He wanted ancient blood, but felt the resonance penalty was too much so took Hardy instead. Having someone with darkvision in the party was really helpful. He chose Sudden charge as his feat, but he never really used it due to the small space and said that another feat would have been better.
The Rogue chose as her ancestry feat weapon familiarity, originally for the filcher's fork, but her halfling sling staff became the weapon MVP. That thing was nasty. She looked over the rogue class feats, and declared that she didn't want any of them until 8th level, so was going to multiclass into wizard next (she wanted sorcerer, but since that wasn't an option...) Consequently, she had an Int of 16, which meant that she had practically every skill in the game. She said that the stupid door which took 16 rolls to open was unfun. She was also the only person to hit dying state (twice), likely because she didn't use a shield.
Summoning is still strong. In fact, the animated broom was broken, and was pretty devestating against the giant centipedes (with the augmented summoning it was AC 15, Hardness 3, +8 to hit for 1d4+dust, and immune to practically everything). The fire beetle vs the goblins in room A7 was also pretty good, what with the dazzle effect much stronger in PF2. The wizard's only real complaint was the fact that it took him forever to find the single cantrp for conjuring, and it was tanglefoot. (He had to check every single cantrip, since the school wasn't listed in the spell list.
The group wasn't sure how they would have survived without the Cleric's channel energy. She was torn between Emblazen symbol and Healing hands, and choose the symbol, which was definitely the right choice. Being able to cast while holding both scimitar and shield really helped. She did ask why if wizards got bonus spells from schools why clerics didn't get bonus spells from domains. She also wanted better cantrip options. She cast Daze a lot. (Which did help the rogue and her sling staff of doom, admittedly.) Magic Weapon is an amazing first level spell.
I needed to prepare a lot more than I did. I spent too much time flipping between the adventure, the beastiary and the rulebook. Definitely copy over the monsters being used, as well as any spells they use. Shields kinda trivialized a couple of encounters, especially the Quasit fight (they couldn't break the hardness even when they did hit, so their poison never came into effect.) Speaking of poisons, the poison listing in the index goes to the alchemist section, not the rules under afflictions. The group never used resonance, so it never came up.
The ooze attack in A1 was 1d6 bludgoning +1d4 acid. How should that interact with shield block? I ruled the damage combined for overcoming hardness but am not sure if that was correct. I also ruled that filth wave could not be blocked, but I could see it going the other way. How does Healer's Blessing and the 3 round heal spell interact? The rogue at one point was at dying 1 and got into with a burning hands spell. I couldn't find any rule about it, but I did not allow him a reflex save, so he went to dying 2. I hope that was correct.
(I included both GM and Players tracking)
On the subject, can I ask a question? How do you make Formulas? I found the feat Inventor, but that seems 100% pointless. You can only make common Formulas, which you could just buy in the form of the Basic Crafter's Book, and get them all easily.
The Basic Crafter's Book only covers the non-magical gear in the equipment section. If you want to craft magical or alchemical items you need to purchase the formulae. (Both the alchemical crafting feat and the magical crafting feat gives you four common low level formulae for free.)
Inventor allows you to create a formula for common magical or alchemical equipment without needing to purchase the formula, which may not be available. It also allows you to create non-magical equipment not listed.
I assume there will eventually a feat that lets you create uncommon and possibly rare formula.
Assurance does guarantee at least a success, true, for a whole 1d10+wisdom. That does help, and most healers will be picking it up. And while Legendary medicine doesn't kick in until 15th, that does allow you to hit the 4d10+wisdom, which is nice since critically succeeding on the higher DC checks only adds a additional 1d10.
And yes, you can use Natural medicine, but now you have to split your skill feats between both medicine and nature. Also, natural medicine takes 10 minutes while battlefield medic is an action, so battlefield medic can be used during combat, a distinct advantage. That said, a dedicated healer will eventually get both, so I should have included that too. You usually only get either medicine or nature as a signature skill (many get neither), so usually primal casters will get natural healing first while divine casters get medicine first.
Below is a list of all of the healing classes and methods of healing ranked from best to worst, at least in my eyes.
By far the best healer in the game. Channel energy allowing you to use your max heals 3 + CHA times a day, along with the variou spell slots allows for a goodly amount. If you choose a goddess with the healing domain (which means Pharasma or Saranae currently), Healer's Blessing and Healing font especially (use your spell points to heal) adds even more healing. Healing hands adds an extra 1d8 (2d8 at 10th) to targeted heals. Sadly, Paizo got rid of spontaneous heals, so if you want to use the spell slots for healing.
Paladin, you say? Ranked just below cleric? Yes. For one reason, lay on hands and channel life (turning your spell points into full heals). Hospice knight is good until you get channel life, but be sure to retrain it afterwards. Mercies are nice to get rid of status effects, although not as well as a divine caster. That said, you could multiclass into cleric eventually to get actual spells, and if you want to be the main healer you will want to.
Sorcerer (Divine or Primal):
The choice between sorcerer and drud was close, but eventually I went with sorcerer being the slightly better healer. The sorcerer can be the main healer... eventually. Both Divine and Primal has heal on its list, and sorcerer edges out druid simply because of the spontaneous heighten. Thus, unlike druids, sorcerers don't have to fill their spell slots with heals to use them. I would choose Primal over divine, just so that you have actually useful cantrips you can use.
Sorcerers do have one advantage over cleric, however. Sorcerers have the class feat Wellspring Spell, allowing a 20th level sorcerer to cast up to 5th level heals all day, every day.
Druid does get heal on their spell list, so they can heal. The big issue is since they are prepared casters, they have to actually choose their heal spells at the beginning of the day, so are much less flexible than the sorcerer. The reason they are close to sorcerers is the plant druid ability of goodberry, adding extra healing (although not much, admittedly) per day. The druid aso doesn't get much class feat support for healing, although like sorcerers at 20th they do get unlimited heals wth Leyline conduit.
In most ways as far as healing is concerned Bard is a worse Sorcerer. They don't get heal, they get Soothe, which works like heal, but not as well. They do get the heightened spell and at 14th they can take Soothing Ballad, which helps, but in general the sorcerer is a better healer. However, bards are the superior buffing class, so if you want a class that buffs and heals as a secondary ability, Bards might cover your healing needs.
As a main healer, Alchemist is at the bottom of the heap. Yes, an alchemist can create elixirs of life, but they heal d6 vs d8 for the heal spells. If you don't want to spend bunches of gp (see items below), they also cost resonance. Worse, they cost the alchemist resonance to make, and the user resonance to drink. Since your primary class feature (bombs) also takes resonance, along with any invested items you are wearing, you won't have that much left over for those elixirs. Very few of your class feats work with elixers of life, and the few that do requires you use quick alchemy. I'd advise against using an alchemist as the primary healer.
You can attempt to supplement your healing abilities by multiclassing into cleric. This will take a lot of feats, and for non-healing classes will not make you a primary healer. The first feat, cleric dedication doesn't even get you the heal spell, just a couple of cantrips. Once you take Basic Cleric Spellcasting, you will get a first level spell slot at 4th, a second level slot at 6th, and a third level slot at 8th. So, that is 1d8+wisdom once at 4th, and at 6th a single 3d8+wisdom. At 6th you can take Basic Dogma to get healing hands for an additional 1d8. At 8th, you can take Divine Breadth to get 1 more spell slot not counting your 2 highest spell levels (which at this point means 1 cantrip and 1 first level spell). Expert cleric spellcasting at 12th gets you a 4th level slot at 12th, a 5th level slot at 14th and a 6th level slot at 16th. Master level spelcasting at 18th gets you a 7th level slot at 18th and an 8th level slot at 20th. So if you are willing to sacrifice all of your class feats except your 10th, 14th, 16th and 20th, you can almost be a marginal healer. Note that if you are primary spellcaster, you don't get a 12th or 16th level class feat.
That said, if you are a Paladin or primary caster and are trying to supplement your healing, it might be worth it. In addition, you do get to use divine spellcasting items.
This option is for those without another source of healing or to help relieve the pressure on the primary healer. Note that this option is expensive and costly in terms of resonance.
First off, thanks to resonance, you will be wanting to use the highest healing you can afford. There are five sources of item healing: Elixirs of life, healing potions, scrolls of heal, wands of heal and a staff of healing.
Elixirs of life is usually the worst deal since they only heal d6 damage instead of d8 damage of the other methods. However for alchemists or those with alchemical crafting, they can often be created cheaper and easier than others, significantly saving money.
In PF2, potions and scrolls cost the same amount, so the big difference is who is paying the resonance cost. (Potions, the user pays, scrolls the caster pays.) Wands now only have 10 charges, and the price savings per cast is marginal, so they are not as good a deal as before.
Staffs of healing, on the other hand, are very much worth it. They can be recharged and most importantly, the user can sacrifice a spell slot to cast from it instead of using charges from the staff (use still need to use resonance). For prepared casters, this allows them to memorize spells other than heal in their spell slots.
A brief menton of the medicine skill. The only way you can use it to heal others is if you have the skill feat battlefield medic. This allows you the chance to heal 1d10+Wis HP once per day (2d10+Wis on a critcal success). Note that the DC to do so is 20, and healer's tools do not help. Interestingly, it looks like they aren't needed either, or at least they are not listed. This is almost certainly an oversight, so expect this to be fixed. Master of medicine gets 2d10+wisdom with a DC 25 check, and Legendary gets 4d10+wisdom on a DC 30 check.
The big issue is that if you critcally fail, the subject loses 1d10 damage. This means it makes it much less of an option at low levels. Since it is currently only once per day per person, this means a party could not rely on it as a primary source of healing.
Hopefully others have found this useful.
"When a character Crafts an item, use the high-difficulty DC
A level 1 high DC is 14, so to craft a common level 1 item has a DC of 14. So the Int 14 level 3 expert crafter (+6) would need an 8 to succeed. Since he is 2 levels above the item, it only takes 2 days to complete if he was willing to pay full price for the item. As long as he doesn't crit fail, he doesn't lose the materials and can try again. Even if he does crit fail, he only loses 10% of the materials. If he critically succeeds (on an 18-20), you are considered 1 level higher for reducing cost.
So for the 4 minor healing potions, after 2 days, you spent 6 gp (60 sp). You can now spend the remaining amount (60 sp), or reduce the cost by 4 sp for each day over the amount (6 sp if you critically succeed). (p. 148)
You do also need to spend the 10 sp for the formula in the first place (p. 188). The basic artisan's tools are 50 sp. You could also spend 200 sp on expert artisan tools for a +1 to the roll (p. 184). Of course, they are bulk 8, so you aren't carrying them around in your backpack.
If you have a friend, they can provide an additional +2 if they get a DC 15 aid check (+4 if they critically succeed, -2 if they critically fail) (p. 307). If your friend is a bard with inspire competence they cannot fail or critically fail to provide aid, and they use their performance skill to boot (p. 233). (Note that if the person you want to aid you has the higher roll, you should be aiding them.)
These rules are scattered all over the book, so it's not unreasonable for you to have missed them.
Fabricate is just gone.
Create Water is now first level and creates a maximum of 2 gallons.
Mending is also first level. It does subsume make whole (Heightened 2nd) but also completely nerfs it. (Goes from a object 10 cubic feet per level to an object of at most 1 bulk (2 bulk with Heightened 3rd).)
I believe what is supposed to happen is that high level skill feats are supposed to be gated by proficiency level. The problem with the playtest is that there are simply not enough high level skill feats. Most skill only have 1 master level and 1 legendary level skill feat. Some don't have any.
Even then, many of these feats aren't very good. Kip Up, for example, is the only master level acrobatics feat, which allows you to stand up without triggering a reaction. I see this at best as an expert level skill feat. The only legendary skill feat for acrobatics is legendary contortionist which allows you to move at full speed while squeezing. When I think of a legendary acrobat, I don't think of someone squirming through tunnels.
Now this will change once we get some more and better skill feats. What I hope is that we will get supplemental material to support high level playtesting.
Battlefield medic is also very dangerous to use at low level. To succeed, you need to make a DC 20 check with your Medicine skill. The best you can do at first level is with a Wis 18 (so cleric or druid) and trained which gives you a +5. Here are the results of the d20 check at first level:
20: heal 2d10+4
I wouldn't risk it until 5th level (maybe 4th with expert proficiency).
When I go to community/Forums, everything looks correct. However, if I go to a sub-forum (say, community/forums/pathfinder or community/forums/Paizo), it appears that the tables display incorrectly. (I am using Internet Explorer.) (Yes, I know.)
In addition, when I tried to post this comment, I had to change the view size to at least 150% to be able to post, as otherwise the black description bar at the bottom of the page completely covers up the submit post button.
I'd prefer 14 for the first dedication feat, 16 for the next one.
Secret Wizard wrote:
Sure it is an opinion. I was just showing how you could build those characters using the rules.
When I think of the rogue, I think of someone who is cunning and quick. Someone who uses his skills over simple brawn to solve problems. It doesn't mean he doesn't have muscles, but he uses what he has more effectively. They tend to be thieving types, small, lean and mean. Someone who grew up in the bad side of town, if not on the streets. Someone who punches above his weight class and wins.
Dexterity based seems a lot more appropriate for what I imagine than strength based. It doesn't mean you can't play against type (like I said, I expect one of the early rogue archetypes will replace dex to damage with another ability). You could probably do a high strength low dexterity rogue if you wanted. But that will be the uncommon option.
Secret Wizard wrote:
Wesley is a level 15 rogue dealing with level 5 enemies. Of course he looks impressive.
Indiana uses a whip (finesse), his fists (also finesse) and a gun (dex based). That said, he has more even stats. Probably something like 12/16/12/16/12/12 at first level. He also isn't a first level character.
Conan is a barbarian who is trained in thievery. Just because you have the thievery skill doesn't mean you are a rogue.
Quick note: Signature deed doesn't work with Opportune Parry and Riposte. "This deed’s cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the number of panache points a deed costs."
I assume your custom race includes the bonus human feat. Otherwise you will need the inspired blade archetype to have both weapon focus and fencing grace at first. Since you are specializing in rapier, it might be worth it to look at the archetype anyway.
If you are planning on taking Greater weapon focus, I'd take it at 8th instead of 9th, since the 9th can be any feat as opposed to just a combat feat.
Extra Panache might not be worth it, depending on how often you are spending per day. Check to see how often you are running low by that point.
Outflank is a teamwork feat. Make sure that you have a teammate willing to take it or it is a wasted feat for you.
From your point spread, it looks like you are doing 15 point buy. Is that correct? Be careful about your strength, unless your group place fast and loose with encumbrance. If strength is not a concern, perhaps drop it to 8 to boost your wisdom to 12.
Don't forget greater weapon specialization at 12th.
The rogue dip is almost certainly not worth it, unless you really want trapfinding or the skill points for some reason. Especially at 5th, as that is when you get your weapon training (including the free improved critical). The only exception I can think of is if you are planning on focusing on menacing swordplay, in which case the Thug archetype might be worth it. Even in this case, I would still wait until 6th.
Wands will likely be cheaper per charge, yes, but how many charges of the wand will you use before you should be using the next higher level of item? Say I have a wand of a first level spell. Since it sounds like I am only going to be able to use it once or twice a day, I might end up using only 5 to 10 charges over the life of the wand until it is no longer an effective use of an action. If that's the case, the scrolls are actually the better deal, depending on pricing.
So now that prestige classes are now apparently a series of feats, I was looking at how to convert some of the classes from PF1.
Horizon Walker: Pretty easy. The dedication feat would give you a favored terrain. Additional feats lets you get more favored terrains or upgrading them into Terrain Mastery and then Terrain Dominance. There may be some power issues involved, though, as having feats that give you immuntity to fatigue, the abilty to fly or darkvision will need to be balanced.
Stalwart defender: The dedication feat is obviously Defensive stance, with the various defensive powers becoming feats. Since the math is tighter it would probably lose the flat AC Bonus. Damage Reduction would likely be a defensive power. You will likely get less bang for your buck compared to the PF 1 version.
Arcane archer: Until we see how multiclassing is going to work, this will mostly be a wizard or sorcerer class only. The dedication feat would be the enhancing arrow ability, with the various other arrow abilities being feats. The issue is that it also has a 7/10 spell progression, which almost certainly will not be done with feats, thus restricting it to classes with arcane spellcasting.
Mystic Theurge: I have no idea how they will be able to do this one. The only way I can think of is if class feats can be used for spell progresson, and even then you would be more of a dabbler in the other magical field.