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Baba Yaga, for instance, makes the cut. She's CR30, has been considered among the Eldest in the past, is level 20/mythic tier 10, has three instances of Divine Source (and is therefor able to grant access to four domains and four subdomains), but she chooses not to grant spells.This is flatly untrue. Baba Yaga has explicitly actively avoided becoming a deity, has no instances of Divine Source, and has never been counted amongst the Eldest (what with not being Fey).
She's earth-shatteringly powerful. The kind of 'mortal' who, like Tar-Baphon the Whispering Tyrant, can slay a demigod...but that in no way makes her one.
Unlike Razimir, however, she could probably become one if she wanted. He hasn't got a prayer.
First World - Realm of the Fey page 37 disagrees with you on Baba Yaga never being counted among the Eldest.
I could swear I'd read something about her having Divine Source and electing not to grant spells to her worshipers, possibly on the James Jacobs thread, but I can't find it (and it's not terribly important in any case.)
Generally, I agree with you. Mostly my point was that she could make the cut if she chose to and she chooses not to, versus Razmir who's "choosing to", but doesn't make the cut.
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First World - Realm of the Fey page 37 disagrees with you on Baba Yaga never being counted among the Eldest.
Huh. You're right. That seems honorary based on having a sizable domain in the First World, though.
I could swear I'd read something about her having Divine Source and electing not to grant spells to her worshipers, possibly on the James Jacobs thread, but I can't find it (and it's not terribly important in any case.)
Well, it's definitely not borne out by her stats.
Generally, I agree with you. Mostly my point was that she could make the cut if she chose to and she chooses not to, versus Razmir who's "choosing to", but doesn't make the cut.
Here, I agree with you entirely.
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James Jacobs did say she could grant powers should she want to, but that she didn't want to. In fact I vaguely remember the words, gone out of her way not to, or words to that effect at least, being used. Don't think he mentioned Divine source though.
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I was kind of disappointed they didn't use that in RoW. Play up her as Patron to the Witches of Irrisen and make part of Elvanna's plot finding a way to rebel against without losing her familiar and powers.James Jacobs did say she could grant powers should she want to, but that she didn't want to. Don't think he mentioned Divine source though.Well, she can serve as a Witch Patron. That doesn't necessarily require godhood, though.
This isn't how Patrons work. They're more like tutors than anything else (which is also why Witches are Int-based), teaching the Witch magic rather than loaning it to them like a deity does a Cleric, or potentially infusing them with it in some more abstract way.
However they do it, they explicitly cannot later take it back.
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James Jacobs did say she could grant powers should she want to, but that she didn't want to. In fact I vaguely remember the words, gone out of her way not to, or words to that effect at least, being used. Don't think he mentioned Divine source though.
My impression was that if Baba Yaga or Tar-Baphon jumped up to the level of actual gods, they would be subject to whatever keeps the actual gods from as materially meddling on Golarion as they do.
They'd be like Asmodeus or Iomedae, able to sent priests and worshippers all over the place, but just waltz in and take over countries with that personal touch.
Razmir could be shocked to learn that if he ever actually succeeded at becoming a god, and was promptly booted off the planet and forced to establish a divine domain somewhere in the outer planes.
"Sorry, gods can't live on Golarion and run countries. It's in the rule book. Take it up with Asmodeus, if you don't like the rules. He'll take you on a guided tour of Rovagug's cage and gently explain to you what happens to gods who don't follow the rules..."
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{. . .}
An Archdevil could take over Razzy's nation from the inside, and nobody would know it was there. No real deity is getting punked in his area of control by an Archdevil.
Maybe this has already happened . . . .
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But then there's the familiar. Who serves the Patron? Or something. It's all very (intentionally) vague.
Is it explicit? I don't recall that from the Witch class description.
The Patron bestows the Familiar, but there's no evidence of any connection after that point. And it's definitely kinda vague, but it's abundantly clear that no outside force can strip a Witch of their powers (well, barring an antimagic field).
The rules are very clear regarding Classes that can lose their powers under certain circumstances and Witch is not such a Class. Removing their powers is on par with removing a Sorcerer's and should not be done any more readily or easily.
Book said he was not a god.
So: he's not. That should settle any argument.
But he accomplish what we see as a god.
But... he didn't.
AP: Kingmaker; by the end of it, you're ~15-17th level, and ruler of a country bigger than his, in a potentially comparable time-frame, done by creating a new country where none was before, and it can be done (albeit with difficulty) by a solo magic crafter.
And he must stay fo used to control his country. War, and border capture are a serious problem. So he must be not distracted.
Sure. "Focused." Yeah.
Distracted.
His goal is to be a god and have immortality.
He is literally eight spells away - only two of which are ninth level from the latter, and he can't even manage that.
Even if he doesn't own those spells, he can make it happen with a mere two hours per day of work.
Let me put that in context: the rules for governing a functioning nation are in the Kingmaker AP. Takes a week per month.
That leaves about three weeks per month. An average of 23 days each month, two hours each day, that's not that hard.
Sin are not the main problem here, we have evil god too.
You misunderstand: sin isn't a problem because he's evil. It's a problem because it's distracted him, and made him fail to accomplish his goals.
He isn't a god. There is no metric in-canon that we could call him a god.
- "He's conquered a kingdom." That's happened in an AP.
- "People worship him." The leadership feat covers this.
- "People believe he's a god." It's called Bluff (with glibness, if necessary, maybe higher a rogue).
Heck, a twelfth level bard can literally accomplish everything so far.
Razmir is a cool concept, and one I like in the setting. But if he wants to become divine source, a knowledge (religion) check should tell him that mythic power and divine source can make it happen (albeit that it's probably work to acquire); mythic power is hard to come by, but if you're already immortal (which he can be), it's not that difficult or hard to find around Golarion. I mean, in addition to the Test of the Starstone.
Basically, he isn't accomplishing everything that he should be able to by way of his own basic class features - that means he's being distracted by his own decisions, by his own sins.
His "problem" with failing at immortality isn't that he's evil; it's that he's distracted: he's fallen victim to his own sins and own success, and can't see a way beyond where he's found himself. He can't find the way out, anymore.
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His goal is to be a god and have immortality.
He is literally eight spells away - only two of which are ninth level from the latter, and he can't even manage that.
What spells are we talking about?
I mean, a combination I can think of 4 that effectively immortality. Permanency, Creat Greater Demiplane (Timeless Quality) - Astral Projection and Clone, just in case (in a different also Timeless Demiplane).
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Due to a treaty, my kingmaker group has considered going and taking him out, as a courtesy.
Or persuade Vordekai to do it. Tomayto, tomahto.
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His goal is to be a god and have immortality.
He is literally eight spells away - only two of which are ninth level from the latter, and he can't even manage that.
What spells are we talking about?
I mean, a combination I can think of 4 that effectively immortality. Permanency, Creat Greater Demiplane (Timeless Quality) - Astral Projection and Clone, just in case (in a different also Timeless Demiplane).
Don't know about the last two, but reincarnation+wish would return you to a healthy adult body, and could be easily accomplished by someone of Razmir's power. Don't know about the last two, but that's six in total.
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you mean two wishes, one for reincarnation, one to set the conditions of it setting off... IIRC, only druids, shamans and witches have access to reincarnation. definitely not wizards.
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Well, reincarnation could also be accomplished via limited wish, dominate person, or a scroll.
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OK, Tacticslion has the right of it, but was perhaps overpolite. Razmir was an impressive attempt, but is a failed attempt. He did not get far enough along the path to immortality before he got on the radar of the Powers That Be. He has proceeded no further because he is opposed, distracted, and countered at every turn. Worse, he set up his Run in such a way that he cannot ever step out of the limelight without giving up his gains. Further, he has waited too long to just start over.
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He's not a god, he's a 19th level Wizard close to dying to old age. And even if he achieved immortality it wouldn't make him a God.
19th level wizards only die of old age by personal choice or plot device.
But no, he's not a god. Just an extremely powerful individual.
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All demigods must be at least CR 25 and be able to grant access to four domains and four subdomains. It's the actual requirement to be considered a demigod.
Unity is so close though!
Razmir flat-out doesn't make the cut.
Razmir is a god. I asked him, and he said "yes."
OK, Tacticslion has the right of it, but was perhaps overpolite. Razmir was an impressive attempt, but is a failed attempt. He did not get far enough along the path to immortality before he got on the radar of the Powers That Be. He has proceeded no further because he is opposed, distracted, and countered at every turn. Worse, he set up his Run in such a way that he cannot ever step out of the limelight without giving up his gains. Further, he has waited too long to just start over.
At this point, his life would probably easier had he simple set himself up as a King (or even an Emperor).
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His goal is to be a god and have immortality.
He is literally eight spells away - only two of which are ninth level from the latter, and he can't even manage that.
What spells are we talking about?
I mean, a combination I can think of 4 that effectively immortality. Permanency, Creat Greater Demiplane (Timeless Quality) - Astral Projection and Clone, just in case (in a different also Timeless Demiplane).
Don't know about the last two, but reincarnation+wish would return you to a healthy adult body, and could be easily accomplished by someone of Razmir's power. Don't know about the last two, but that's six in total.
Create Demiplane + Permanency = safe haven.
Create greater Demiplane = timeless property (not strictly necessary).
Greater Age Resistance = Youthful body
Astral Projection = place youthful body in stasis + create new body.
Plane Shift = Return home with new, eternally youthful body that is assassination proof.
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.........Create Demiplane + Permanency = safe haven.
Create greater Demiplane = timeless property (not strictly necessary).
Greater Age Resistance = Youthful body
Astral Projection = place youthful body in stasis + create new body.
Plane Shift = Return home with new, eternally youthful body that is assassination proof.
Yes, this is all very clever and impressive, but futile if the God-Wizard faces capable, well-resourced enemies, because every move can be countered. They only work against relatively ineffective opposition. To succeed here, you need either anonymity or powerful allies, especially if, for some odd reason, you are not infiltrating the Mythic Structure.
His goal is to be a god and have immortality.
He is literally eight spells away - only two of which are ninth level from the latter, and he can't even manage that.
What spells are we talking about?
I mean, a combination I can think of 4 that effectively immortality. Permanency, Creat Greater Demiplane (Timeless Quality) - Astral Projection and Clone, just in case (in a different also Timeless Demiplane).
Those are them. I'm just counting how many spells he'd actually have to cast, not just how many kinds of spells he'd have to cast. Also, I am presuming an extremely pedantic/poor-for-the-player-hypothetically interpretation of those spells. That results in him having to cast exttra spells, and order to accomplish his goal. Also, the whole cyclic reincarnation, contingency, and permanent sanctified rest combination. :-) but I wasn't mentioning that, because it's a much shorter list.
Edit: but, yeah, it's the stuff that we've discussed recently. Basically, I keep intending to link that thread, where it came up recently, and then forgetting. Poops! I'm going to this you guys!
Edit two: seriously, talk-type? "Poops"? Or phone, when have I ever type that phrase? Like, ever? Sigh. Technology: it's awesome right up until it's ridiculous. I'm totally leaving that, though, because It's ridiculous, and so am I.
Oh. I see at least a couple of those points have been hashed out and follow up posts. Oh well! At least I'm clarifying.
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Yes, this is all very clever and impressive, but futile if the God-Wizard faces capable, well-resourced enemies, because every move can be countered. They only work against relatively ineffective opposition. To succeed here, you need either anonymity or powerful allies, especially if, for some odd reason, you are not infiltrating the Mythic Structure..........Create Demiplane + Permanency = safe haven.
Create greater Demiplane = timeless property (not strictly necessary).
Greater Age Resistance = Youthful body
Astral Projection = place youthful body in stasis + create new body.
Plane Shift = Return home with new, eternally youthful body that is assassination proof.
I mean, sure the wizards tricks can be countered (by another wizard basically) but it's not an easy trick to do. Especially since a cautious wizard will have multiple clones in multiple permanent demiplanes, and will work on getting themselves to be not on the radar for as many people as possible. Probably including faking their own death. And I expect many bound outsiders to protect the wizard clones, etc, etc. There is always a week point, but eventually you're just talking about an ever escalating war of power to the point were you're immortal wizard can be destroyed, but basically only by someone who is equally capable of being an immortal wizard.
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He's just doing what the aboleths tell him to.
As should. We. All.
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Well, if you want to stay off the radar, I suggest not conquering a kingdom and declaring yourself a god. :)
Well duh. If you we're really a smart wizard you would know that running a kingdom is more work than it's worth, as is trying to be somebody's god.
You should just do your magical research and acquire more power, let the mortals do their own thing.
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In conclusion Razmir is neither a god or "a smart wizard"
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In conclusion Razmir is neither a god or "a smart wizard"
I admire the optimism with which you say "in conclusion"--given that the thread's question is easily answered by reference to the source material (as acknowledged in the original post), one might be tempted to glance at the lengthy discussion that ensued (prompted by numerous objections to the evidence cited by the original poster, and made by that person, and almost exclusively) and suggest that "in conclusion" is not as conclusive as one might, in assessing the strictly lexical sense of the aforementioned verbiage, be otherwise led to assume, at least for some (including, a reading of the above would indicate, the original poster), for whom a straight-forward assessment of purely textual evidence, no matter how clear or unambiguous, is not allowed to sway one towards a conclusion, regardless of the obviousness thereof.
Sigh.
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Well, if you want to stay off the radar, I suggest not conquering a kingdom and declaring yourself a god. :)Worked for Victor von Doom :)
Yeah, but his name was Victor von Doom. I mean, that's not a name that sets you up for a lot of career options.
"Hold on, let me call my accountant, Victor von Doom."
"Oh, is that the same guy who cleans pools? I see his truck all over town."
"Nope, just a coincidence."
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If you don't have the optimism to hope for an eventual conclusion what do you have?
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Chaos? Call me optimistic ;)
Wonderful, this went well.
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#Drama
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Razmir is so powerful, he has convinced more people he isn't a god than he has that he is.
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An interesting plot might be that he is gunning for lichdom, but needs the right sort of circumstances to make it happen. Like plunge a nation into war and be killed by a righteous hero...
Ooh, that would be delightfully 'Xanatos gambit' of him.
Adventurers "Yay! After much epic-ness, we killed Razmir!"
Lich Razmir "As I intended, all along. I needed someone to kill all that was mortal about me, paring it away like dross, to leave behind only that which will endure forever..."
Who's "the muted god"?
Hhhhhhhhhh-huh! Thanks!
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Yes, this is all very clever and impressive, but futile if the God-Wizard faces capable, well-resourced enemies, because every move can be countered. They only work against relatively ineffective opposition. To succeed here, you need either anonymity or powerful allies, especially if, for some odd reason, you are not infiltrating the Mythic Structure..........Create Demiplane + Permanency = safe haven.
Create greater Demiplane = timeless property (not strictly necessary).
Greater Age Resistance = Youthful body
Astral Projection = place youthful body in stasis + create new body.
Plane Shift = Return home with new, eternally youthful body that is assassination proof.
The resources needed to kill a wizard using such a setup is at least an order of magnitude greater than the resources required to kill a wizard not using this.
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This will be rather OT, and I apologize, but has there ever been any sort of an official answer on just how many of Golarion's people know that Razmir isn't a god, he's only a mortal man? It seems like every time Razmir and Razmiran gets mentioned in either background information or fiction he's described by the speaker as a 'con artist'.