So the description of the butchering axe says that it was invented by orcs, but it does not have "orc" in the name. Is it a martial weapon for half-orcs? It would be nice if weapon familiarity was finally worth something.
Specifically, is it an orc weapon in PFS?
Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word "orc" in its name as a martial weapon.
Pretty clear.
It isn't a greataxe.
It isn't a falchion.
It doesn't have "orc" in the name.
It isn't covered in any way by the half-orcs Weapon Familiarity.
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The above poster is correct. ^_^
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In addition, to touch on this point:
Specifically, is it an orc weapon in PFS?
Since Adventurer's Armory 2 does not appear on the Additional Resources page, all items that appear exclusively in that source are illegal for Pathfinder Society play at this time.
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so its created specifically by orcs and is not an orc weapon? wtf so even the orcs that make the damb thing need to spend a feat just to use it.... why
iirc, it's only created and used by orcs in a very specific area of Golarion. So it wouldn't exactly make sense for all orcs to have proficiency in it.
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ya but not every one plays in galorin so tying it to galorin lore places is not goodso its created specifically by orcs and is not an orc weapon? wtf so even the orcs that make the damb thing need to spend a feat just to use it.... whyiirc, it's only created and used by orcs in a very specific area of Golarion. So it wouldn't exactly make sense for all orcs to have proficiency in it.
It's from a player companion, which is not a setting neutral line. So tying it to Golarion lore is perfectly fine. If you don't play in Golarion then just present your case as to why it should be an orc racial weapon to your GM.
Part of the reasoning is definitely a balancing factor though. You probably shouldn't auto get proficiency in a 3d6 weapon without needing to use an alternate racial trait or feat.
so its created specifically by orcs and is not an orc weapon? wtf so even the orcs that make the damb thing need to spend a feat just to use it.... why
It was designed to be specifically more powerful than all other axes. Powerful enough to justify the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat spent on it.
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ya but not every one plays in galorin so tying it to galorin lore places is not goodso its created specifically by orcs and is not an orc weapon? wtf so even the orcs that make the damb thing need to spend a feat just to use it.... whyiirc, it's only created and used by orcs in a very specific area of Golarion. So it wouldn't exactly make sense for all orcs to have proficiency in it.
And not everyone has dwarves that hate giants, but that bit of fluff is tied into the racial stats. All elves, even those raised among humans by humans, receive training in swords and bows just because. Tying things to lore is already done, even if that lore does not hold true everywhere.
Those kind of learned things shouldn't be a built-in racial trait at all.
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i just find it weird that a half elf can get easier access to a weapon made by orcs to be used by orcs than an orc can
How exactly? Unless I am missing something, both only need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Butchering Axe).
Edit: Ah, I see. You mean half-elves who have taken the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait.
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half elves can get it for free by trading out their skill focus while half orcs and normal orcs actually need to spend a feat on iti just find it weird that a half elf can get easier access to a weapon made by orcs to be used by orcs than an orc canHow exactly? Unless I am missing something, both only need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Butchering Axe).
So? They can also choose the dwarven waraxe, dwarven urgrosh, or gnome hooked hammer and be proficient with it. Dwarves and gnomes do not automatically gain proficiency with those weapons (it just becomes easier to get).
You issue isn't with the weapon, it is actually with the half-elf alternate trait. It should be limited to elven and human weapons only. You know, their actual ancestors for Ancestral Arms.
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half elves can get it for free by trading out their skill focus while half orcs and normal orcs actually need to spend a feat on iti just find it weird that a half elf can get easier access to a weapon made by orcs to be used by orcs than an orc canHow exactly? Unless I am missing something, both only need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Butchering Axe).
So? They can also choose the dwarven waraxe, dwarven urgrosh, or gnome hooked hammer and be proficient with it. Dwarves and gnomes do not automatically gain proficiency with those weapons (it just becomes easier to get).
You issue isn't with the weapon, it is actually with the half-elf alternate trait. It should be limited to elven and human weapons only. You know, their actual ancestors for Ancestral Arms.
Even then, it's not really free since you're trading out a Feat to get another Feat (and I really like Skill Focus).
^Yes, but Skill Focus is easier to qualify for than Exotic Weapon Proficiency (even if not by much, but it still matters quite noticeably when you are at 1st level).
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^Yes, but Skill Focus is easier to qualify for than Exotic Weapon Proficiency (even if not by much, but it still matters quite noticeably when you are at 1st level).
Eh, not really when I don't really see any non-full BAB class picking this weapon up due to the STR requirement as well. And even if it is easier to qualify for, it doesn't diminish the usefulness of SF.
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If you roll really well or have a gonzo PB then maybe (or have the Orc bloodline), outside of that I don't see many 9th level casters plunking points into Strength in order to use it (before they get the Transformation spell anyway). Oracle maybe.
Magi can't use it with their class stuff so I don't see them using it all.
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there are some archetypes that will let them use 2h, or get something that makes the weapon a 1h weapon there are at least 3 ways a magus can use the weaponIf you roll really well or have a gonzo PB then maybe (or have the Orc bloodline), outside of that I don't see many 9th level casters plunking points into Strength in order to use it (before they get the Transformation spell anyway). Oracle maybe.
Magi can't use it with their class stuff so I don't see them using it all.
I know of the Quarterstaff archetype but I don't know how that would help, I don't think there's any other Archetypes that let a Magus use a 2 handed weapon or let them treat it as a 1 handed.
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Hello! I'm just dropping in to say that the idea orcs are naturally good with weapons like this is a little bit problematic.
Why, just because humans invented the Fauchard, it doesn't mean we should call it a Human Fauchard and assume that all humans are natural Fauchard-users!
Personally, I do use a Butchering Axe for butchering my foes, but I had to work long and hard to get any good at it, and it's a little bit irritating to have people make the somewhat racist assumption that it was easy for me! Yes, it was invented by an orc, but he created it as a test of strength and skill, not a convenient weapon that anyorc could use.
Remember: killing orcs may be an important part of being an adventurer, but hurting our feelings isn't.
I know of the Quarterstaff archetype but I don't know how that would help, I don't think there's any other Archetypes that let a Magus use a 2 handed weapon or let them treat it as a 1 handed.there are some archetypes that will let them use 2h, or get something that makes the weapon a 1h weapon there are at least 3 ways a magus can use the weaponIf you roll really well or have a gonzo PB then maybe (or have the Orc bloodline), outside of that I don't see many 9th level casters plunking points into Strength in order to use it (before they get the Transformation spell anyway). Oracle maybe.
Magi can't use it with their class stuff so I don't see them using it all.
At 13th level, the Mindblade archetype can use a two-handed weapon with Spell Combat. (12th 7th level if it is a double weapon being used for TWF.)
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At 13th level, the Mindblade archetype can use a two-handed weapon with Spell Combat. (12th level if it is a double weapon being used for TWF.)I know of the Quarterstaff archetype but I don't know how that would help, I don't think there's any other Archetypes that let a Magus use a 2 handed weapon or let them treat it as a 1 handed.there are some archetypes that will let them use 2h, or get something that makes the weapon a 1h weapon there are at least 3 ways a magus can use the weaponIf you roll really well or have a gonzo PB then maybe (or have the Orc bloodline), outside of that I don't see many 9th level casters plunking points into Strength in order to use it (before they get the Transformation spell anyway). Oracle maybe.
Magi can't use it with their class stuff so I don't see them using it all.
Cool.
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there's one that lets them use it with a 2h weapon and it gives them fighter weapon training as well so double bonus, 2 level dip into barb will get them the weapon as a 1h weapon as will lighten weaponI know of the Quarterstaff archetype but I don't know how that would help, I don't think there's any other Archetypes that let a Magus use a 2 handed weapon or let them treat it as a 1 handed.there are some archetypes that will let them use 2h, or get something that makes the weapon a 1h weapon there are at least 3 ways a magus can use the weaponIf you roll really well or have a gonzo PB then maybe (or have the Orc bloodline), outside of that I don't see many 9th level casters plunking points into Strength in order to use it (before they get the Transformation spell anyway). Oracle maybe.
Magi can't use it with their class stuff so I don't see them using it all.
Aside from the Midnblade (which requires 13th level) and the Staff one (which doesn't let them use their spell stuff when 2handing) I don't know of any others' that lets them use 2handers, and the only archetypes I found that gave them weapon training was Kensai and Myrmidarch, neither of which let them use 2handers with their spell stuff.
And yeah Multiclassing with Barbarian could fix it, but then that fixes lots of things... but you're also multiclassing.
Cool.At 13th level, the Mindblade archetype can use a two-handed weapon with Spell Combat. (12th level if it is a double weapon being used for TWF.)I know of the Quarterstaff archetype but I don't know how that would help, I don't think there's any other Archetypes that let a Magus use a 2 handed weapon or let them treat it as a 1 handed.there are some archetypes that will let them use 2h, or get something that makes the weapon a 1h weapon there are at least 3 ways a magus can use the weaponIf you roll really well or have a gonzo PB then maybe (or have the Orc bloodline), outside of that I don't see many 9th level casters plunking points into Strength in order to use it (before they get the Transformation spell anyway). Oracle maybe.
Magi can't use it with their class stuff so I don't see them using it all.
Oops. It's 7th level for TWF. It is a cool archetype. You already mentioned that the Staff Magus can use Quarterstaves one-handed. The Kapenia Dancer can use Bladed Scarves one-handed. I can't think of any other Paizo archetypes that can use two-handed weapons with Spell Combat, and only the Mindblade would be able to use the Butchering Axe.
Edit: We cross-posted. The Myrmidarch is the only Magus archetype that gets Fighter Weapon Training. Kensai don't.
Oops. It's 7th level for TWF. It is a cool archetype. You already mentioned that the Staff Magus can use Quarterstaves one-handed. The Kapenia Dancer can use Bladed Scarves one-handed. I can't think of any other Paizo archetypes that can use two-handed weapons with Spell Combat, and only the Mindblade would be able to use the Butchering Axe.Cool.At 13th level, the Mindblade archetype can use a two-handed weapon with Spell Combat. (12th level if it is a double weapon being used for TWF.)I know of the Quarterstaff archetype but I don't know how that would help, I don't think there's any other Archetypes that let a Magus use a 2 handed weapon or let them treat it as a 1 handed.there are some archetypes that will let them use 2h, or get something that makes the weapon a 1h weapon there are at least 3 ways a magus can use the weaponIf you roll really well or have a gonzo PB then maybe (or have the Orc bloodline), outside of that I don't see many 9th level casters plunking points into Strength in order to use it (before they get the Transformation spell anyway). Oracle maybe.
Magi can't use it with their class stuff so I don't see them using it all.
*nods*
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arcane merauderthere's one that lets them use it with a 2h weapon and it gives them fighter weapon training as well so double bonus, 2 level dip into barb will get them the weapon as a 1h weapon as will lighten weaponI know of the Quarterstaff archetype but I don't know how that would help, I don't think there's any other Archetypes that let a Magus use a 2 handed weapon or let them treat it as a 1 handed.there are some archetypes that will let them use 2h, or get something that makes the weapon a 1h weapon there are at least 3 ways a magus can use the weaponIf you roll really well or have a gonzo PB then maybe (or have the Orc bloodline), outside of that I don't see many 9th level casters plunking points into Strength in order to use it (before they get the Transformation spell anyway). Oracle maybe.
Magi can't use it with their class stuff so I don't see them using it all.
Aside from the Midnblade (which requires 13th level) and the Staff one (which doesn't let them use their spell stuff when 2handing) I don't know of any others' that lets them use 2handers, and the only archetypes I found that gave them weapon training was Kensai and Myrmidarch, neither of which let them use 2handers with their spell stuff.
And yeah Multiclassing with Barbarian could fix it, but then that fixes lots of things... but you're also multiclassing.
Explains why I wasn't able to find it, it's a 3pp archetype.
^That said, it is possible to find worse archetypes that are not 3pp (Greensting Slayer, I'm looking at you).
Explains why I wasn't able to find it, it's a 3pp archetype.arcane merauderthere's one that lets them use it with a 2h weapon and it gives them fighter weapon training as well so double bonus, 2 level dip into barb will get them the weapon as a 1h weapon as will lighten weaponI know of the Quarterstaff archetype but I don't know how that would help, I don't think there's any other Archetypes that let a Magus use a 2 handed weapon or let them treat it as a 1 handed.there are some archetypes that will let them use 2h, or get something that makes the weapon a 1h weapon there are at least 3 ways a magus can use the weaponIf you roll really well or have a gonzo PB then maybe (or have the Orc bloodline), outside of that I don't see many 9th level casters plunking points into Strength in order to use it (before they get the Transformation spell anyway). Oracle maybe.
Magi can't use it with their class stuff so I don't see them using it all.
Aside from the Midnblade (which requires 13th level) and the Staff one (which doesn't let them use their spell stuff when 2handing) I don't know of any others' that lets them use 2handers, and the only archetypes I found that gave them weapon training was Kensai and Myrmidarch, neither of which let them use 2handers with their spell stuff.
And yeah Multiclassing with Barbarian could fix it, but then that fixes lots of things... but you're also multiclassing.
You're not really surprised by that, are you?
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You're not really surprised by that, are you?Explains why I wasn't able to find it, it's a 3pp archetype.arcane merauderthere's one that lets them use it with a 2h weapon and it gives them fighter weapon training as well so double bonus, 2 level dip into barb will get them the weapon as a 1h weapon as will lighten weaponI know of the Quarterstaff archetype but I don't know how that would help, I don't think there's any other Archetypes that let a Magus use a 2 handed weapon or let them treat it as a 1 handed.there are some archetypes that will let them use 2h, or get something that makes the weapon a 1h weapon there are at least 3 ways a magus can use the weaponIf you roll really well or have a gonzo PB then maybe (or have the Orc bloodline), outside of that I don't see many 9th level casters plunking points into Strength in order to use it (before they get the Transformation spell anyway). Oracle maybe.
Magi can't use it with their class stuff so I don't see them using it all.
Aside from the Midnblade (which requires 13th level) and the Staff one (which doesn't let them use their spell stuff when 2handing) I don't know of any others' that lets them use 2handers, and the only archetypes I found that gave them weapon training was Kensai and Myrmidarch, neither of which let them use 2handers with their spell stuff.
And yeah Multiclassing with Barbarian could fix it, but then that fixes lots of things... but you're also multiclassing.
Not really, there's a lot of s&!$ out there, I can't keep track of it all and where its from XD
ya but not every one plays in galorin so tying it to galorin lore places is not goodso its created specifically by orcs and is not an orc weapon? wtf so even the orcs that make the damb thing need to spend a feat just to use it.... whyiirc, it's only created and used by orcs in a very specific area of Golarion. So it wouldn't exactly make sense for all orcs to have proficiency in it.
Paizo makes the game to be played in Golarion.
But they're also nice enough to make the system adaptable enough to use for other settings as well. That doesn't mean that not everything plays nicely when you start trying to remove the context.
Hello! I'm just dropping in to say that the idea orcs are naturally good with weapons like this is a little bit problematic.
Why, just because humans invented the Fauchard, it doesn't mean we should call it a Human Fauchard and assume that all humans are natural Fauchard-users!
Personally, I do use a Butchering Axe for butchering my foes, but I had to work long and hard to get any good at it, and it's a little bit irritating to have people make the somewhat racist assumption that it was easy for me! Yes, it was invented by an orc, but he created it as a test of strength and skill, not a convenient weapon that anyorc could use.
Remember: killing orcs may be an important part of being an adventurer, but hurting our feelings isn't.
Thank you, Mr. Nice Orc. I was going to say the exact same thing - but I see you've beaten me to the punch. Your speed at posting thoughtful responses is only exceeded by your kindness on consideration towards others.
The one edge case where "orcs and half-orcs have a harder time using the Butchering Axe than do Half-Elves and others who can get an EWP with a racial trait" I think is a Vital Striking Warpriest.
Though, probably the better house rule for fixing that is to waive the BAB:+1 requirement for EWP. Come to think of it the Greatsword might still be better since it has support by virtue of being some deities' favored weapons so you can use things like Greater Weapon of the Chosen with it.
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Thank you, Mr. Nice Orc. I was going to say the exact same thing - but I see you've beaten me to the punch. Your speed at posting thoughtful responses is only exceeded by your kindness on consideration towards others.
Thank you, friend. A kindly halfling couple raised me to be considerate of the feelings of others. There is never a sufficient reason in this world to abandon politeness! And while it is true that my adoptive parents were taken by the slavers who burned their village and I swore bloody vengeance upon humanity, I have never disregarded the lessons they taught me.
Should we ever run into one another in person, I will endeavor to use my butchering axe with careful precision so as to give you the cleanest possible death. Good luck!
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so its created specifically by orcs and is not an orc weapon? wtf so even the orcs that make the damb thing need to spend a feat just to use it.... whyiirc, it's only created and used by orcs in a very specific area of Golarion. So it wouldn't exactly make sense for all orcs to have proficiency in it.
However, it does have the Orc Trait tag.
My bad, somehow I was looking up discussion for the Butchering Axe for 2e and got here instead.
Eh. It happens. Surprised they already have these in 2E