Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I doubt the folks at LWD have some inside tract but they are assuming it's a done deed I guess
Considering they get books as soon as they are sent to the printer, and have inside communication channels for rules question/answer, plus have been right on things like how courageous weapon properly only helps saves a year before the FAQ; I would say they have an inside tract.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Well I just checked things.. the resonance powers on the Ioun stones have already been 'updated' on hero lab. Even if you didn't have the guide in place
I doubt the folks at LWD have some inside tract but they are assuming it's a done deed I guess
Yep. So am I. I'm just waiting for the notice on when we can sell these back at full price.
Sigh.
Hmm
I assume it is just a database thing, they have added the Adventurer's Guide already, and just like you sometimes see unchained summoner descriptions while working with chained evolutuions.. .. it happens.
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Well I just checked things.. the resonance powers on the Ioun stones have already been 'updated' on hero lab. Even if you didn't have the guide in place
I doubt the folks at LWD have some inside tract but they are assuming it's a done deed I guess
Yep. So am I. I'm just waiting for the notice on when we can sell these back at full price.
Sigh.
Hmm
They aren't completely hosed. You still can use them, just not 100% passively.
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Please dont allow the sale of these back at full price.
People got their moneys worth out of them.
It's already baked into the rules for PFS. If an item changes you're able to sell it back at full price.
The only thing we're waiting on is the word that it is changed for PFS.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville
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I dont believe that rule is baked in. Its only if campaign leadership allows the item to be sold back at full price.
I think it should be an option, if only to cut down of the issue when Ithe issue goes live. Just because they 'got their value' is pretty petty
Me? I'm keeping mine but I imagine I'm in the minority.
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What about those persons who didn't get " their moneys worth out of them"? I mean, if someone shows up at a game I'm running next month, and hasn't seen the current changes, and just got the item from the old source... and hasn't played the PC yet... can she sell it back at full?
how about if she only played one game and never used the item?... can she sell it back at full?
Or how about someone who picked up the item, then judged a game or two and assigned the Chronicle to that PC... can she sell it back at full?
Or someone who has it on a PC that actually got one use out of it under the old rules ... can she sell it back at full? Or do they count as "got their moneys worth out of" it?
Where do we draw the line? Never played? Never used? Used once? twice? How much does it take to "got their moneys worth out of them"?
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Please dont allow the sale of these back at full price.
People got their moneys worth out of them.
An item changes you get to sell it back at full price. Thats the rule. Its the rule for a number of reasons. Campaign leadership would need to issue an exception to that rule in order to.. what? Twist the knife? Screw over people already ticked at losing their item? What would the point of that be? to tell people NOT to buy anything new?
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I think people take item adjustments too peraonally.
If it gets changed than it gets changed. Thats the liquid nature of any massive multiplayer rpg. Things get nerfed, they get buffed etc. Asking for refunds because an item you got usage out of for even one session shouldnt be allowed.
If you bought it on your last chronicle and it didnt get usef, thats another story, but if youve had use of it for a session or more than it shouldnt be refundable for full price. Thats all.
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I think people take item adjustments too peraonally.
A character is a very personal thing to a lot of people. Gear is a big part of that.
If it gets changed than it gets changed. Thats the liquid nature of any massive multiplayer rpg. Things get nerfed, they get buffed etc. Asking for refunds because an item you got usage out of for even one session shouldnt be allowed.
This is not an argument to make the change suck more.
If you bought it on your last chronicle and it didnt get usef, thats another story, but if youve had use of it for a session or more than it shouldnt be refundable for full price. Thats all.
Also a statement. Not an argument.
The game is (at least in theory) made better by the changes (because the changes are made with the intention of making the game better)
What possible benefit is there in making the changes harder on the people that it effects, like.. at all? Arguments that there is change do not address that, so you're just repeating yourself, not making a point.
Possible negative effects of this include people leaving pfs, or just not buying books because they feel they won't be able to use anything in it. You're going to do that because... change is change? That's a total non answer.
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Sorry, we just look at things differently. Items get nerfed, get changed. If the only arguement you have is that someones toy got changed, now they wont buy new books or even continue playing, than that sounds like someone that maybe shouldnt be courted for the game.
Change is change, and its for the betterment of the game.
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If the only arguement you have is that someones toy got changed, now they wont buy new books or even continue playing, than that sounds like someone that maybe shouldnt be courted for the game.
It's more argument than you're making. If i want a catagory of person not to actively court it's people actively trying to make what's supposed to be a fun game worse for everyone else for no discernible reason.
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I think people take item adjustments too peraonally.
If it gets changed than it gets changed. Thats the liquid nature of any massive multiplayer rpg. Things get nerfed, they get buffed etc. Asking for refunds because an item you got usage out of for even one session shouldnt be allowed.If you bought it on your last chronicle and it didnt get usef, thats another story, but if youve had use of it for a session or more than it shouldnt be refundable for full price. Thats all.
Can't really apply that logic here, though, since the type of person that uses the item that NEEDS to be nerfed, is also the type of person to be very upset by having their items nerfed. The sort of player that openly critizes other players for having less than optimal builds....
Don't really think any of my characters have noticed any of the nerfs (nothing I make is optimized). Haven't made a lore warden purely because I can't seem to acquire a copy of the book it's in, at a reasonable price. Sounds like the new version isn't worth it's salt, and comes at an even more inflated cost. Sad.
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Sorry, we just look at things differently. Items get nerfed, get changed. If the only arguement you have is that someones toy got changed, now they wont buy new books or even continue playing, than that sounds like someone that maybe shouldnt be courted for the game.
Change is change, and its for the betterment of the game.
While I certainly think the change is a good thing, and I am not all upset by it, this just seems petty.
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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What about those persons who didn't get " their moneys worth out of them"? I mean, if someone shows up at a game I'm running next month, and hasn't seen the current changes, and just got the item from the old source... and hasn't played the PC yet... can she sell it back at full?
how about if she only played one game and never used the item?... can she sell it back at full?
This describes me!
The two characters of mine that have them bought them just recently and never used them. I'd love to get my money back to pick up something more protective. Incidentally, I had bought the ioun stones on high will save characters who had Protection from Evil wands. I wanted there to be someone in the party who made their will save and could help others make theirs.
I'm still going to try to be this person, it just means that I have to outlay more cash on this concept.
Note, that +18 is usually impacted by GM inclusion of "situational modifiers". The reality is that it's closer to -18.THUNDERLIPS! IS A DANGEROUSLY CURIOUS MAN OF INFLUENCE.
As someone who has GMed for THUNDERLIPS, one of those situational modifiers is "break the GM." After I am done falling off my chair laughing, I usually give him a +2.
Hmm
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Or, maybe, someone who just wanted their combat maneuver specialist to have a higher CMB. To me, +2 CMB is worth paying 5k gold. +1 is not, and the AC bonus isn't helpful enough TO MY PC to matter. I have other ways to boost my CMB and other statistics that are more worthwhile uses of my 5k, and locking most of my formerly-liquid assets into an item that I would never have bought at that price is petty at best.
Trying to grapple a colossal centipede is a heroic act, every resource must be optimally allocated to achieve such a reckless goal ;)
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someones toy got changed, now they wont buy new books or even continue playing, than that sounds like someone that maybe shouldnt be courted for the game.
Do I want players sufficiently invested in PFS that they buy lots of books? Mostly yeah (I have some issues with players who overly optimize their characters).
Does PAIZO want players sufficiently invested in PFS that they buy lots of books?
Hell yes of course they do.
Does Paizo want to piss off these players more than they already have just "because the players should accept all change"?
Hell no, of course they don't.
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As someone who has GMed for THUNDERLIPS, one of those situational modifiers is "break the GM." After I am done falling off my chair laughing, I usually give him a +2.
Making me as a GM laugh is not worth +2 situational on diplomacy. Actually being diplomatic will. Thunderlips has yet to ever earn a +2, and usually he's at -2 after he whips out his ... continual flame during a tense negotiation.
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As someone who has GMed for THUNDERLIPS, one of those situational modifiers is "break the GM." After I am done falling off my chair laughing, I usually give him a +2.Making me as a GM laugh is not worth +2 situational on diplomacy. Actually being diplomatic will. Thunderlips has yet to ever earn a +2, and usually at -2 after he whips out his ... continual flame during a tense negotiation.
WHAT ABOUT THE TWO RABBITS? THE RABBITS!
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As someone who has GMed for THUNDERLIPS, one of those situational modifiers is "break the GM." After I am done falling off my chair laughing, I usually give him a +2.Making me as a GM laugh is not worth +2 situational on diplomacy. Actually being diplomatic will. Thunderlips has yet to ever earn a +2, and usually at -2 after he whips out his ... continual flame during a tense negotiation.
THAT IS ALSO WHERE THE BLUE IOUN STONE CIRCLES
Developer
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Wow, my post got a lot of replies!
For the record, I don't think Lore Warden being such a commonly used archetype means the archetype is too strong. I think it means the Fighter is too weak. It isn't the fault of the class so much as the one-two punch of feat taxes and said feat taxes requiring odd ability scores. Plus magic scaling so much differently than martial scaling. Compare Burning Hands to Fireball...and compare Dirty Tricks at level 1 to Dirty Tricks at level 6.
My Thrown Weapon Fighter and Dirty Tricks fighter both really needed Lore Warden to be healthy contributors to combat in the 2-5 level range. At least when a Rogue is fighting against an Elemental, they have enough skill points to contribute in some other meaningful way.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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As someone who has GMed for THUNDERLIPS, one of those situational modifiers is "break the GM." After I am done falling off my chair laughing, I usually give him a +2.Making me as a GM laugh is not worth +2 situational on diplomacy. Actually being diplomatic will. Thunderlips has yet to ever earn a +2, and usually he's at -2 after he whips out his ... continual flame during a tense negotiation.
The rooster miniature is a -10 alone.
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The rooster miniature is a -10 alone.As someone who has GMed for THUNDERLIPS, one of those situational modifiers is "break the GM." After I am done falling off my chair laughing, I usually give him a +2.Making me as a GM laugh is not worth +2 situational on diplomacy. Actually being diplomatic will. Thunderlips has yet to ever earn a +2, and usually he's at -2 after he whips out his ... continual flame during a tense negotiation.
SQWACK!?
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The rooster miniature is a -10 alone.As someone who has GMed for THUNDERLIPS, one of those situational modifiers is "break the GM." After I am done falling off my chair laughing, I usually give him a +2.Making me as a GM laugh is not worth +2 situational on diplomacy. Actually being diplomatic will. Thunderlips has yet to ever earn a +2, and usually he's at -2 after he whips out his ... continual flame during a tense negotiation.
You can blame MisterSlanky for that.
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Maybe it's not your style but it worked for other players.And it works just as fine with rangers and slayers too. Often better.
*says the man with the barbarian trained in diplomacy*
THUNDERLIPS! IS A DANGEROUSLY CURIOUS MAN OF INFLUENCE.
I have been intrigued by your handsome mannerisms and wish to be knowing if you have newsletter or membership in Ambrus Valsin Fan Club.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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On those of my characters who have already bought a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, it was purchased specifically for the resonance power.
I'm still trying to find something to replace it that gives a good Will save bonus at a reasonable price. Seducer's Bane only gives +2 over what a cloak of about the same price would give and the price point is a little high.
Best I've found so far is the Pale Green Cracked Prism, 4K, +1 Competence bonus to all saves.
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Developer
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The price rebalance reasoning on the resonance stuff really boggles my mind.
Can anyone honestly claim they spent 4k for the sustain without food ever in PFS? The value of that is zero at the level you budget one of these.
I've honestly only once every had the clear spindle protect me against a mind-affecting effect. It's caused lots of headaches at my tables though, and many DMs have still hit me with charm/compulsion effects cast by evil casters claiming the stone only applies to "other stuff". It's a real hassle, and I can't wait to get it as a 1st level spell I can recharge with Kitsune Star Gems.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The price rebalance reasoning on the resonance stuff really boggles my mind.
Can anyone honestly claim they spent 4k for the sustain without food ever in PFS? The value of that is zero at the level you budget one of these.
It's a slotless version of a Ring of Sustenance, so the price is technically correct. But that doesn't make it worth the money.
