Please no more nerfs


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3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

thorin001 wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
From the view of ordinary players, when we see changes, what we see primarily are nerfs.
For the most part Paizo is pretty evenly split on upgrading and downgrading. In fact Im actually surprised more people have praised the upgrades because they are incredible.

When was the last time you saw a change to an existing item/spell/class/feat that was an upgrade? Crane Wing doesn't count as the final change was still a downgrade from the original.

Also I forgot. Combat expertise has an upgraded counterparts. As I said earlier won't defend the way they do it but it does happen.


Prone Shooter was an upgrade, I mean sure it did nothing to start with but it was an upgrade.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Oh hey, one of my characters does have the clear spindle. Guess he won't need to eat anymore.

1/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Oh hey, one of my characters does have the clear spindle. Guess he won't need to eat anymore.

And yet somehow he'll still manage to bite off more than he can chew! ;-)

1/5

Kevin Willis wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
From the view of ordinary players, when we see changes, what we see primarily are nerfs.
For the most part Paizo is pretty evenly split on upgrading and downgrading. In fact Im actually surprised more people have praised the upgrades because they are incredible.

When was the last time you saw a change to an existing item/spell/class/feat that was an upgrade? Crane Wing doesn't count as the final change was still a downgrade from the original.

I posted this a couple of pages back but it got lost in the noise...

Kevin Willis wrote:

For anyone wondering: here's a short list of a few things that are upgraded in Adventurer's Guide. This isn't an exhaustive list, just what I noticed on my first skim.

  • Pathfinder Delver gets some new abilities.
  • Mammoth Rider gets some extra mount choices.
  • Cyphermage has extra choices for cypher lore.
  • Pathfinder Savant is now a 10-level prestige class (not really an upgrade to the existing levels, but there are cool abilities at the new levels).

What new abilities did the Pathfinder Delver get?

Also, considering my own Cyphermage had trouble finding a sixth ability worth taking... are the new cypher lores meaningful for a non-Evil character, or are they more of the "bonuses with those super-expensive symbol spells you hate to cast" variety?

Dark Archive

I actually think this change makes a lot of sense; there is an economic maxim that essentially states: "when everybody is buying a certain type of good, then that specific good is under priced." The Clear Spindle was so good that it was almost the default for most players if they were going to slot an ioun stone, which leads me to my main point: I hope that the development team goes ahead and starts to apply this style of nerf to other "must have" items.

Let's start with stat items which are WAY too powerful. Stat items are an always on buff that are clear best-in-class items for their slots. For martials they make you flat-out better with every weapon you would use. For casters they give you more spells and make almost every spell you cast more difficult to resist. Stat items would much more reasonable if they applied their bonus for minutes per day and did NOT provide a permanent bonus; permanent bonus on casting stats make already powerful classes punch way above their weight class. If we got rid of these always-on stat boosts, I think we would see a lot less overpowered builds that can break scenarios.

1/5

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BlackOuroboros wrote:

I actually think this change makes a lot of sense; there is an economic maxim that essentially states: "when everybody is buying a certain type of good, then that specific good is under priced." The Clear Spindle was so good that it was almost the default for most players if they were going to slot an ioun stone, which leads me to my main point: I hope that the development team goes ahead and starts to apply this style of nerf to other "must have" items.

Let's start with stat items which are WAY too powerful. Stat items are an always on buff that are clear best-in-class items for their slots. For martials they make you flat-out better with every weapon you would use. For casters they give you more spells and make almost every spell you cast more difficult to resist. Stat items would much more reasonable if they applied their bonus for minutes per day and did NOT provide a permanent bonus; permanent bonus on casting stats make already powerful classes punch way above their weight class. If we got rid of these always-on stat boosts, I think we would see a lot less overpowered builds that can break scenarios.

There's a very basic problem with this reasoning, though: determining what "everyone is buying." Views on this apparently differ significantly.

There's the additional problem that Paizo's repricing has, historically, incredibly OVERpriced things. After all, wouldn't the corollary be that items NOBODY buys are OVERpriced? Give players a reason to buy something else, don't just make it infeasible or distasteful to buy their previous favorites.

As for stat items and cloaks - what's already published EXPECTS players to have gotten them at the appropriate times. There's a reason I've seen very few PCs have a shoulder-slot item that isn't a cloak of resistance. Just making the standard items more expensive doesn't fix the problem - it just results in under-equipped PCs.


Poe's law

Dark Archive

shaventalz wrote:
BlackOuroboros wrote:

I actually think this change makes a lot of sense; there is an economic maxim that essentially states: "when everybody is buying a certain type of good, then that specific good is under priced." The Clear Spindle was so good that it was almost the default for most players if they were going to slot an ioun stone, which leads me to my main point: I hope that the development team goes ahead and starts to apply this style of nerf to other "must have" items.

Let's start with stat items which are WAY too powerful. Stat items are an always on buff that are clear best-in-class items for their slots. For martials they make you flat-out better with every weapon you would use. For casters they give you more spells and make almost every spell you cast more difficult to resist. Stat items would much more reasonable if they applied their bonus for minutes per day and did NOT provide a permanent bonus; permanent bonus on casting stats make already powerful classes punch way above their weight class. If we got rid of these always-on stat boosts, I think we would see a lot less overpowered builds that can break scenarios.

There's a very basic problem with this reasoning, though: determining what "everyone is buying." Views on this apparently differ significantly.

There's the additional problem that Paizo's repricing has, historically, incredibly OVERpriced things. After all, wouldn't the corollary be that items NOBODY buys are OVERpriced? Give players a reason to buy something else, don't just make it infeasible or distasteful to buy their previous favorites.

As for stat items and cloaks - what's already published EXPECTS players to have gotten them at the appropriate times. There's a reason I've seen very few PCs have a shoulder-slot item that isn't a cloak of resistance. Just making the standard items more expensive doesn't fix the problem - it just results in under-equipped PCs.

I wasn't saying make it more expensive, I was saying make it less good. It's not exactly a secret that the "big six" has been a serious problem for the game for a while now; so much so that they added an optional system to try to mitigate it in Unchained.

Dark Archive

Honestly, on a majority of my characters I don't purchase rings of protection, or cloaks of resistance at all.
My Barbarian has a will save of around 5? With no Clear Spindle Ioun stone. He isnt smart enough to know why the item would work for him.

1/5

BlackOuroboros wrote:
shaventalz wrote:

There's a very basic problem with this reasoning, though: determining what "everyone is buying." Views on this apparently differ significantly.

There's the additional problem that Paizo's repricing has, historically, incredibly OVERpriced things. After all, wouldn't the corollary be that items NOBODY buys are OVERpriced? Give players a reason to buy something else, don't just make it infeasible or distasteful to buy their previous favorites.

As for stat items and cloaks - what's already published EXPECTS players to have gotten them at the appropriate times. There's a reason I've seen very few PCs have a shoulder-slot item that isn't a cloak of resistance. Just making the standard items more expensive doesn't fix the problem - it just results in under-equipped PCs.

I wasn't saying make it more expensive, I was saying make it less good. It's not exactly a secret that the "big six" has been a serious problem for the game for a while now; so much so that they added an optional system to try to mitigate it in Unchained.

Same thing. Lowering the value of the item (whether by reducing the usability/suitability or by raising the price). I was referring to equipment when I mentioned overpricing things, but they've shown themselves to be adept at both forms of mis-valuation (see crane wing v2).

Dark Archive

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

Honestly, on a majority of my characters I don't purchase rings of protection, or cloaks of resistance at all.

My Barbarian has a will save of around 5? With no Clear Spindle Ioun stone. He isnt smart enough to know why the item would work for him.

Ah.. but what is on your barbarian's waist?

Dark Archive

shaventalz wrote:
BlackOuroboros wrote:
shaventalz wrote:

There's a very basic problem with this reasoning, though: determining what "everyone is buying." Views on this apparently differ significantly.

There's the additional problem that Paizo's repricing has, historically, incredibly OVERpriced things. After all, wouldn't the corollary be that items NOBODY buys are OVERpriced? Give players a reason to buy something else, don't just make it infeasible or distasteful to buy their previous favorites.

As for stat items and cloaks - what's already published EXPECTS players to have gotten them at the appropriate times. There's a reason I've seen very few PCs have a shoulder-slot item that isn't a cloak of resistance. Just making the standard items more expensive doesn't fix the problem - it just results in under-equipped PCs.

I wasn't saying make it more expensive, I was saying make it less good. It's not exactly a secret that the "big six" has been a serious problem for the game for a while now; so much so that they added an optional system to try to mitigate it in Unchained.
Same thing. Lowering the value of the item (whether by reducing the usability/suitability or by raising the price). I was referring to equipment when I mentioned overpricing things, but they've shown themselves to be adept at both forms of mis-valuation (see crane wing v2).

The solution to dealing with overpowered options is not "make everything else overpowered", it's fixing the obvious deficiencies.


BlackOuroboros wrote:
The solution to dealing with overpowered options is not "make everything else overpowered", it's fixing the obvious deficiencies.

actually, believe it or not this is a really good way to make things feel balanced. If everyone is doing something that feels powerful, no one gets left out.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Frogsplosion wrote:
BlackOuroboros wrote:
The solution to dealing with overpowered options is not "make everything else overpowered", it's fixing the obvious deficiencies.
actually, believe it or not this is a really good way to make things feel balanced. If everyone is doing something that feels powerful, no one gets left out.

Except the GM.


Yeah but there's definitely a point where one overpowered character rolls high on initiative and ends the encounter in one round. Sure, everyone else may be around the same power level but that power level is so high that it is steam-rolling through encounters so fast that not everyone can show off their powers.

Of course that doesn't seem to be the issue with the nerfs I've seen in the book or otherwise.

1/5

Frogsplosion wrote:
BlackOuroboros wrote:
The solution to dealing with overpowered options is not "make everything else overpowered", it's fixing the obvious deficiencies.
actually, believe it or not this is a really good way to make things feel balanced. If everyone is doing something that feels powerful, no one gets left out.

Also, I think there are (for this purpose) two categories of "overused" items being discussed.

1) Cloaks, belts, and headbands. These are, to a large extent, baked into the CR assumption. Lowering their value (whether by restricting usability or raising price) breaks existing assumptions and should not be done at all (no matter how powerful they are.)
2) Optional stuff. These are legitimate targets for rebalancing IF done carefully. Note that this also includes the mounds of overpriced junk items out there now, that almost nobody actually buys.

The Exchange 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

shaventalz wrote:
What new abilities did the Pathfinder Delver get?

It's not really a new ability, but Left for Dead has been upgraded so you don't get into that weird "conscious but at negative hit points" zone.

Student of War does have a new ability, it now gets to choose a new class skill every other level.

Quote:
Also, considering my own Cyphermage had trouble finding a sixth ability worth taking... are the new cypher lores meaningful for a non-Evil character, or are they more of the "bonuses with those super-expensive symbol spells you hate to cast" variety?

One is a bonus to saving throws vs one school of magic. The other is only useful if you are casting language-dependent spells. . . in Thassilonian.

None of the upgrades are "OMG I have to play one now!" Just little things that fit with the flavor.

Sovereign Court 3/5

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Kevin Willis wrote:
One is a bonus to saving throws vs one school of magic. The other is only useful if you are casting language-dependent spells. . . in Thassilonian.

Huh. They might get some combat use out of share language, then.

1/5

Yeesh. Not sure I'd consider the changes to Delver or Cyphermage as evidence that Paizo sometimes upgrades things. I mean, Delver's "upgrade" just sounds like fixing bad writing. The new cypher lores are technically an upgrade, in that now you can do something you couldn't before, but... I can get Iron Will for 1 feat, and that covers Enchantment, Illusion, Divination, and a scattering from other schools. A bonus vs. ONE school is about the power level of a trait. And the other actually seems less useful than Rune Trap, which is saying something.

At least Student of War gets an upgrade... more or less. It's already got most of the important skills as class skills, plus whatever you've already got from your initial class(es). UMD and the social skills are about it, and you'll probably have picked those up via trait if they're important to you (rather than waiting until level 6+.)

KingOfAnything wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:
One is a bonus to saving throws vs one school of magic. The other is only useful if you are casting language-dependent spells. . . in Thassilonian.
Huh. They might get some combat use out of share language, then.

Will negates on Share Language. If you can get a 2nd-level spell to stick, you probably don't need whatever boost the cypher lore gives.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

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While I haven't looked through all the that is coming out in this book or that has been said in this thread, I want to add my 2 cents that I too am getting a bit sick of seeing some of these nerfs (and over correction nerfs in some cases) that have come through the campaign.

I know the two big ones people are discussing for this. So I'll start off by saying I don't have a Lore Warden, and I think only a couple of my characters have the Clear Spindle.

However, when I see some of these changes come through, some will hail as a "Need to bring balance!," but I feel it lends itself to a feeling of powerlessness to the player and lack of control in the game. And when you get down to it this is just a hobby to me. It's where I choose to spend my money, time and support. Yet, when I see changes like these happen and it makes me wonder why I put into it sometimes.

While I understand sometimes things need to be nerfed due to game-breaking concepts people develop that were unforeseeable, these changes seem to be for things that were functioning as designed.

And while these few changes aren't the heart of the probably, they are a symptom of the problem to some.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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Removed a tangent of country-based blame. Let's keep this on topic please.

Sovereign Court 3/5 Venture-Agent, Washington—Kent aka KitsuneWarlock

There were some other "upgrades". The Andoran prestige class that was expanded to 10 levels was upgraded if you play it past level 12, but downgraded if you play it in Pathfinder Society. Red Mantis Assassin can now Weapon Finesse with Sawtooth Sabers. Just little things.

I think my major disappointment with the treatment of Prestige Classes in the book was I was spoiled by Paths of the Righteous. The book did such an amazing job with prestige classes that weren't tied to extremely narrow builds and/or specific classes, with lots of options and ways you can play each class. Heck, I have two devoted muses that both play completely differently!

And that's kind of the problem with the new Lore Warden. It went from a versatile option that can be used to help encourage a lot of underused strategies that require extensive multiclassing to pull off before level 5 or 6, like Dirty Tricks and Repositioning.

To quote my friend: "People are telling me just to retrain into Brawler. They'll say I'll (trip) better. But I'm not a Brawler!"

Silver Crusade 2/5

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I have a clear spindle ioun stone on my -1 character, a sorceress. I bought it very late (chronicle 24, 9th level) because I didn't have the ring slot for a ring of sustenance. I found out about the resonance power after I bought it. I don't have one on another character. So, I guess I am a counterexample of the reason to get one, and I don't really mind the change. I now have slotted my scarlet and blue sphere for the +1 to Will saves.

1/5

Sara Marie wrote:
Removed a tangent of country-based blame. Let's keep this on topic please.

I'm baffled and curious at how/why Pathfinder RPG rules changes could be blamed on a country... ;-)

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

KitsuneWarlock wrote:

There were some other "upgrades". The Andoran prestige class that was expanded to 10 levels was upgraded if you play it past level 12, but downgraded if you play it in Pathfinder Society. Red Mantis Assassin can now Weapon Finesse with Sawtooth Sabers. Just little things.

I think my major disappointment with the treatment of Prestige Classes in the book was I was spoiled by Paths of the Righteous. The book did such an amazing job with prestige classes that weren't tied to extremely narrow builds and/or specific classes, with lots of options and ways you can play each class. Heck, I have two devoted muses that both play completely differently!

And that's kind of the problem with the new Lore Warden. It went from a versatile option that can be used to help encourage a lot of underused strategies that require extensive multiclassing to pull off before level 5 or 6, like Dirty Tricks and Repositioning.

To quote my friend: "People are telling me just to retrain into Brawler. They'll say I'll (trip) better. But I'm not a Brawler!"

Why can't you make Dirty Fighting work by level 2? Hell the Barbarian makes a great Lore Warden substitute if you want to go the Dirty Fighting route.

Silver Crusade 1/5

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The untamed rager archetype barbarian is quite nice for Dirty Tricks, specifically. It is what I may retrain my lore warden into. But it's not a lore warden. It has a very, very different flavour even if it can mechanically achieve some of the same things. If you have a lore warden because you want a scholarly fighter, even a scholarly fighter who specialises in unorthodox and underhand combat tactics, that is an entirely different character to a savage uncivilised warrior who uses Dirty Tricks because he aims to win by any means.

In other words, a viable mechanical alternative may be incompatible with other (dare I say roleplaying) aspects of a character.

3/5

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DesolateHarmony wrote:
I have a clear spindle ioun stone on my -1 character, a sorceress. I bought it very late (chronicle 24, 9th level) because I didn't have the ring slot for a ring of sustenance. I found out about the resonance power after I bought it. I don't have one on another character. So, I guess I am a counterexample of the reason to get one, and I don't really mind the change. I now have slotted my scarlet and blue sphere for the +1 to Will saves.

I knew someone would eventually come and post a no really I bought it for the sustenance. The problem is, it's a self constructed false need. There's still no value. PFS just doesn't put you in food gathering relevant situations without rare exception, and in those the stone probably would have been taken away for it anyway, or there's some other gimmick to the scenario.(scenarios usually too low lvl as well) You, like the mammoth guy are intentionally making a purchase for no mechanical benefit in PFS. Now I get spending money for RP purposes, outfits, tools, PP on vanities etc...but most of us aren't going to blow 4,000 GP on it.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Or at least those choosing to spend 4k on a role playing item are making that choice of your own free will, not getting suckered into it with a bait and switch.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Canada—Alberta—Grand Prairie aka DM Livgin

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A fairly good replacement of the clear spindle ioun stone is reminding your GM that dominate person is a 1 round casting time. (/jk)

Scarab Sages

plaidwandering wrote:
Now I get spending money for RP purposes, outfits, tools, PP on vanities etc...but most of us aren't going to blow 4,000 GP on it.

Like 90% of my character choices are for roleplaying reasons. From character creation, to prestige, to GP purchases.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there was a single character build, that if the entire party had that same builld, would be superior in every PFS scenario, at least over that of a party with diversity in character creation.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

supervillan wrote:

The untamed rager archetype barbarian is quite nice for Dirty Tricks, specifically. It is what I may retrain my lore warden into. But it's not a lore warden. It has a very, very different flavour even if it can mechanically achieve some of the same things. If you have a lore warden because you want a scholarly fighter, even a scholarly fighter who specialises in unorthodox and underhand combat tactics, that is an entirely different character to a savage uncivilised warrior who uses Dirty Tricks because he aims to win by any means.

In other words, a viable mechanical alternative may be incompatible with other (dare I say roleplaying) aspects of a character.

Except I meant in totality. It's weirdly doable though I'm more fond of the Bloodrager myself for those antics. I knew you were going to be that specific* hence the reason why I made sure it stacked with Urban Rager.

Edit:
* I am too. I like the premise. Really odd that it works well enough but it does for Barbarian.

3/5

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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
]Like 90% of my character choices are for roleplaying reasons. From character creation, to prestige, to GP purchases.

Ok but you realize that anyone can say this, because well I'm roleplaying this adventuresome agent guy and this is the stuff I'd buy to survive/thrive in that profession.

That's different than "I'm throwing a chunk of GP at this purely RP item that I know only comes up in 1/500 scenarios and I'm past the level of most of those anyway"

Scarab Sages

plaidwandering wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
]Like 90% of my character choices are for roleplaying reasons. From character creation, to prestige, to GP purchases.

Ok but you realize that anyone can say this, because well I'm roleplaying this adventuresome agent guy and this is the stuff I'd buy to survive/thrive in that profession.

That's different than "I'm throwing a chunk GP at this purely RP item that I know only comes up in 1/500 scenarios and I'm past the level of most of those anyway"

I agree that anyone should be able to say that, and I don't really see the RP difference between buying things that are viable from a metagaming stance and buying things that aren't viable from a metagaming stance. Most things are bought for RP purposes, on most characters.

One character I made became female (1st level rebuild), not for RP purposes, but because females in Pathfinder having a lower weight gave a mechanical benefit that was too awesome to pass up. Certainly not an RP reason. Another would be taking skills or retraining skills purely to meet prestige class requirements. Many others, sure, but I think it would be fair to say that 90% of my character choices are for RP reasons (whether viable or not), and have very little to do with seeking the best mechanical advantages, even if they sometimes happen be a viable option.

Scarab Sages 3/5

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plaidwandering wrote:
DesolateHarmony wrote:
I have a clear spindle ioun stone on my -1 character, a sorceress. I bought it very late (chronicle 24, 9th level) because I didn't have the ring slot for a ring of sustenance. I found out about the resonance power after I bought it. I don't have one on another character. So, I guess I am a counterexample of the reason to get one, and I don't really mind the change. I now have slotted my scarlet and blue sphere for the +1 to Will saves.
I knew someone would eventually come and post a no really I bought it for the sustenance. The problem is, it's a self constructed false need. There's still no value. PFS just doesn't put you in food gathering relevant situations without rare exception, and in those the stone probably would have been taken away for it anyway, or there's some other gimmick to the scenario.(scenarios usually too low lvl as well) You, like the mammoth guy are intentionally making a purchase for no mechanical benefit in PFS. Now I get spending money for RP purposes, outfits, tools, PP on vanities etc...but most of us aren't going to blow 4,000 GP on it.

You only need to have your party trapped underground for 2 months, healing the hard way because your healer died, to appreciate those stones. I thought 100 wandermeal would be all I'd ever need... I was very wrong.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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Angel Hunter D wrote:


You only need to have your party trapped underground for 2 months, healing the hard way because your healer died, to appreciate those stones. I thought 100 wandermeal would be all I'd ever need... I was very wrong.

In an older edition we once got stuck down a dungeon, and had to use Mount spells to get something to eat. And that spell took mounts from somewhere else in the world, so suddenly there were a lot of three-legged horses with "save us!" carved into their flanks.

Took us a year to get rescued...

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

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Lau Bannenberg wrote:


Took us a year to get rescued...

*tap tap taps pointy stick*

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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Flutter wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:


Took us a year to get rescued...

*tap tap taps pointy stick*

... I mean, clearly that was a barbaric time, we'd never do anything like that nowadays...

3/5

Angel Hunter D wrote:
You only need to have your party trapped underground for 2 months, healing the hard way because your healer died, to appreciate those stones. I thought 100 wandermeal would be all I'd ever need... I was very wrong.

This discussion of it having essentially zero value is PFS specific. Home game stuff is a completely separate issue, and it is more likely to at least have some marginal value there. The resonance's were developed in a pathfinder society specific book, thus the lack of value in PFS before the resonance is relevant.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
plaidwandering wrote:
The resonance's were developed in a pathfinder society specific book, thus the lack of value in PFS before the resonance is relevant.

That lack of value, whether perceived or real, is probably what led to it having such a bonkers resonance power in the first place.

I'm pretty sure if I turned over a slotless 4,500 gp item that gave constant protection from mind control (and sustenance!) today, I'd be receiving a very sternly worded comment about it.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Isabelle Lee wrote:


That lack of value, whether perceived or real, is probably what led to it having such a bonkers resonance power in the first place.

I'm pretty sure if I turned over a slotless 4,500 gp item that gave constant protection from mind control (and sustenance!) today, I'd be receiving a very sternly worded comment about it.

But what has changed culturally in the development phase to produce that distinctive reaction?

Sorry if that's a bit deep into the business-side, there, and it may be unclear how it came about.

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