To clarify, I think there's a case for considering a Magical Child Vigilante a different class, but no case for ignoring them.
"Tanky" is pretty vague. You can make a very survivable alchemist, if that's what you mean.
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Alchemists can be very tanky. Tumour familiar with the protector archtypes. Mutagen, shield extract, eventually spell knowledge for mirror image and spontaneous healing. Medium armor would help depending on your Dex.
The trick to tanking to doing enough damage to keep enemies focused on you and to not have defenses so high they give up. This is really tricky.
Don't try to build to tank, build to be effective in combat without letting your defenses faulter and you will start "tanking" naturally.
If you run Mutagen frequently and have accelerated drinker, prep most of your potions with buff spells and heals then yeah.
that being said, Alchemist is not a martial class, this doesn't matteer much at all, but it should be said
Considering how long a buff Mutagen is it should be up most the time.
I played a bomber Alchemist and she was "tankier" or "More Survivable" than the cavalier in full plate with a shield.
Dex to AC, Displacement/Mirror Image (UMD scroll/wand for mirror image), Protector Familiar, Dex Mutagen, and the occasional Shield Extract. She just was extremely hard to hit and when hit the Familiar took Half of it and Fast healed it's self.
You also can get buffs Like Ablative barrier (Hours/level) to turn 5 points of damage into non lethal on each attack. Non lethal and lethal damage are healed in equal amounts so your Cure spells go twice as far.
Since I was a bomber I used a Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists with Alter Self extract for a form with 3 Natural attacks and later I used other Transmutation buffs.
If you do not want to be a bomber there are a few archetypes that are worth using like Vivisectionist. Which trades Bombs for Sneak attack.
Combine Extracts is very nice tool for getting 2 buffs up in 1 action (surprise round preferably)
So a Alchemist can survive on the front lines easy enough with many different build types. They offer a ton of versatility.
Doesnt Alchemist have a stackable discovery for fast healing or some such? and they can stack on armor, shields, AC buffs and that healing to pretty good effect. I had a build going for a while that was an Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior Fighter that used the same tricks to be very tanky while still using two handed power attacks on a high strength build...
I know Bloodrager does. I have run the Fast healing build several times and dominated APs with it. It really is a good build.
So many people mentioned alchemist here, And my group said that a Alchemist could be quite useful, The Ranger raised a question I would like to ask here though, Is it possible to make a tanky alchemist?
Tanky Alchemist recipe:
Tumor familiar with the protector archetype
Spontaneous healing and healing touch discovery
Preserve organs discovery X3
Mummification
Enlarge person/longarm extracts
Longspear
Combat reflexes
Mutagens
at higher level Giant form extract into some form of troll
You aren't going to be able to reach the heights of AC a plate and shield warrior can, and your base hp are going to be smaller than the barbarian, but you effectively get a 25-50% increase in hp depending on how long the fight lasts 75% sneak/critical reduction, immunity to cold and some other status effects, 25 foot reach and fast healing+regeneration 5-15 depending on where you're at in level.
You aren't going to be able to reach the heights of AC a plate and shield warrior can, and your base hp are going to be smaller than the barbarian, but you effectively get a 25-50% increase in hp depending on how long the fight lasts 75% sneak/critical reduction, immunity to cold and some other status effects, 25 foot reach and fast healing+regeneration 5-15 depending on where you're at in level.At higher levels, barkskin stacking with mutagen, alchemical allocation with high level shield of faith potions for deflection, dodge bonuses from haste or similar, celestial armor + high dex, magic shield or shield extract, and so on, I'm pretty confident that the alchemist can beat the pants off the AC of a shield/plate fighter that does't have access to similar magics. ACs in the 40s around 12th level isn't out of the question.
Plate is not Necessary to achieve high AC. I feel lots of people have the misconception of Heavy armor means best AC possible. Which is wrong. I have had Medium armor characters with higher ACs than the guy in plate.
And Layered defenses beat out pure AC builds in Pathfinder. The Alchemist has Layered defense in spades built into the class. Which makes them "Tankier" or "More Survivable" as a class.
So I agree with _Ozy_
To add to this point, full plate (the best heavy armor) has an AC of 9 with a max dex of 1. For a total of 10 possible AC, armor training bonuses (to increase max dex not withstanding). A breastplate, the best medium armor (maybe kikko armor with it), has an AC of 6 with a max dex 3. So you have a total of 9 ACpossible. So the difference is 1 point of possible AC, and that's assuming you have the dex to do so on both.
It's definitely harder to keep dex at the cap to max AC from armor for medium armor, but you don't need heavy armor to have the highest AC.
Honestly, if you can get a 50% miss chance on yourself, such as from the arcane bloodline Bloodrager which gets free displacement on themselves at level 11...you can be incredibly tanky just because stuff misses you all the time.
To add to this point, full plate (the best heavy armor) has an AC of 9 with a max dex of 1. For a total of 10 possible AC, armor training bonuses (to increase max dex not withstanding). A breastplate, the best medium armor (maybe kikko armor with it), has an AC of 6 with a max dex 3. So you have a total of 9 ACpossible. So the difference is 1 point of possible AC, and that's assuming you have the dex to do so on both.
It's definitely harder to keep dex at the cap to max AC from armor for medium armor, but you don't need heavy armor to have the highest AC.
Honestly, if you can get a 50% miss chance on yourself, such as from the arcane bloodline Bloodrager which gets free displacement on themselves at level 11...you can be incredibly tanky just because stuff misses you all the time.
Level 8 Claxon
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I think any martial can be versatile if you multi-class and use archetypes creatively. For instance I played a skinwalker(were-boar)barbarian(war dog)/alchemist(rage chemist, vivisectionist)/, rogue(scout). Lots of fun. Use of spells, lots of attacks, good skills, sneak attack, trapfinding/disable device and a companion(boar). Invested feats at later levels to intimidate which made combat even more fun. Crazy damage when shape change, raging, mutagen and flanking with companion for sneak attack. Out of combat had enough knowledge skills and rogue skills to do most rogue kind of stuff which made him useful in other ways besides killing stuff. Not to mention skinwalker added to flavor and roleplaying opportunities.
{. . .}
Consider the idea of class separation murdered. Most of the characters I've seen or played have archetypes, the base class is the exception rather than the rule. A theory that only applies in the case without archetypes is IMO worthless.
{. . .}
That said, Fighter without archetypes looks not too shabby these days.
Also - rangers with archetypes like guide, fortune finder, & wild hunter aren't nearly so dependent on the type of enemy they face.
So few votes for the Barbarian, despite their in-class access to Pounce & Flight, mixed with the incredible ability to Spell Sunder.
Plus, the Barbarian can use Combat Maneuvers better than most thanks to Strength Surge, and once he gets Come & Get Me, he won't even need the feats. Anyone who dares take an attack of opportunity on him will be met with a devastating counterattack. Even if he gets hit, he has DR as well as access to the Flesh Wound Rage Power, allowing him to almost negate a hit if his fort save is high enough.
Moreover, he can put most of that stuff into one build. In terms of combat, Barbarians should always be in consideration.
So few votes for the Barbarian, despite their in-class access to Pounce & Flight, mixed with the incredible ability to Spell Sunder.
Plus, the Barbarian can use Combat Maneuvers better than most thanks to Strength Surge, and once he gets Come & Get Me, he won't even need the feats. Anyone who dares take an attack of opportunity on him will be met with a devastating counterattack. Even if he gets hit, he has DR as well as access to the Flesh Wound Rage Power, allowing him to almost negate a hit if his fort save is high enough.
Moreover, he can put most of that stuff into one build. In terms of combat, Barbarians should always be in consideration.
Cause some of us prefer the Bloodrager. Since they have Primalist Archetype and can get MORE layered defenses than just DR and High HP. They are just built into the Class. I know I prefer the Bloodrager to the Barbarian.
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the 2 builds that can get the highest ac use either no armor (theres a combo out there that can get high 50's low 60s with no armor at all)or mythril full plate(a fighter in mythril fullplate can get into the 70's with their ac)
So I agree with _Ozy_Using purely their own abilities? And at what level? I was talking around level 12.
Can they also get displacement and mirror image like the alchemist, which helps with the 5% auto-hit?
What class has to only rely on its own abilities? I mean realistically, not in play, because once you start stacking non personal only buff spells to reach parity there's nothing stopping the other class with a stronger base foundation of numbers from getting those buff spells too, either via party members or UMD or whatever.
So sure, if your fighter has a crazy high UMD, and can afford high level wands and scrolls, I'm sure he can get his AC on par with the alchemist, who can generally do it all within class features, and without burning expendables.
But that's not a very interesting comparison, IMO.
Well, this thread is about versatile martials, and an UMD heavy fighter might count as such. He will have to deal with expendables, sure, but WBL exists to be spent anyway - and he doesn't pay with class features like the alchemist. With a lot of class features around combat, including easily overlooked stuff like Tower Shield Proficiency and Heavy Armor Proficiency, he can totally afford to invest into versatility.
I doubt he can handle everything alone, but that's not the point of a party member anyway.
What class has to only rely on its own abilities? I mean realistically, not in play, because once you start stacking non personal only buff spells to reach parity there's nothing stopping the other class with a stronger base foundation of numbers from getting those buff spells too, either via party members or UMD or whatever.the 2 builds that can get the highest ac use either no armor (theres a combo out there that can get high 50's low 60s with no armor at all)or mythril full plate(a fighter in mythril fullplate can get into the 70's with their ac)
So I agree with _Ozy_Using purely their own abilities? And at what level? I was talking around level 12.
Can they also get displacement and mirror image like the alchemist, which helps with the 5% auto-hit?
Because if you're relying on the party to cast barkskin on you, it kinda means you're not being 'versatile'. If you're relying on magic items and wands, it starts to really eat into your WBL.
So sure, if your fighter has a crazy high UMD, and can afford high level wands and scrolls, I'm sure he can get his AC on par with the alchemist, who can generally do it all within class features, and without burning expendables.
But that's not a very interesting comparison, IMO.
At 12th level (last level mentioned that i recall in this thread) Barkskin lasts 2 hours, probably 4 since rods of extend spell exist. Your drood or ranger does it before you enter the "dungeon" and it lasts most of the way through. And yeah, mirror image and displacement are great, but if you go dwarf you're not going to lose much by replacing a cloak of resistance with a displacement cloak (minor/major depending on level) and just taking the steel soul feat. There ARE martial builds that work around the lack of these spells, not as efficiently as just having the spell, but perfectly functional, and more than reasonable for any module or adventure path you care to run.
yeah, getting barkskin from a druid or ranger means you need a druid or ranger, not a given.
Also getting displacement only works for a dwarf whose still okay reducing saves for it.
The idea of versatility of classes is just to base off of class features. If the answer is Money or Role Play then it's equal for everyone and thus usually not factored into the comparisons.
yeah, getting barkskin from a druid or ranger means you need a druid or ranger, not a given.
Also getting displacement only works for a dwarf whose still okay reducing saves for it.The idea of versatility of classes is just to base off of class features. If the answer is Money or Role Play then it's equal for everyone and thus usually not factored into the comparisons.
>These spellcasters can achieve combat parity with martials, lets include them in discussions about the most versatile martial
>ACTUAL Martials can only achieve parity with this spellcaster build by
using WBL, which has been pointed out is a core point of the game, you cant bring that up.
I'm starting to understand the underlying theme of the paizo boards.
yeah, getting barkskin from a druid or ranger means you need a druid or ranger, not a given.
Also getting displacement only works for a dwarf whose still okay reducing saves for it.The idea of versatility of classes is just to base off of class features. If the answer is Money or Role Play then it's equal for everyone and thus usually not factored into the comparisons.
>These spellcasters can achieve combat parity with martials, lets include them in discussions about the most versatile martial
>ACTUAL Martials can only achieve parity with this spellcaster build by
using WBL, which has been pointed out is a core point of the game, you cant bring that up.I'm starting to understand the underlying theme of the paizo boards.
Since "martials" in this thread was designated as meaning, "one who attacks with a weapon and is focused on casting spells" then yes, many spellcasters fit that definition.
Also, if a martial needs to spend extra gold to match what the caster's get for free then sure, trade the ability for the ability to say, you get X gold for free. All classes get gold, and all classes can spend their gold. If you need to spend your gold on something another class gets for free to catch up then the other class has effectively more gold than you to use for whatever they want rather than playing catch-up to you.
yeah, getting barkskin from a druid or ranger means you need a druid or ranger, not a given.
Also getting displacement only works for a dwarf whose still okay reducing saves for it.The idea of versatility of classes is just to base off of class features. If the answer is Money or Role Play then it's equal for everyone and thus usually not factored into the comparisons.
>These spellcasters can achieve combat parity with martials, lets include them in discussions about the most versatile martial
>ACTUAL Martials can only achieve parity with this spellcaster build by
using WBL, which has been pointed out is a core point of the game, you cant bring that up.I'm starting to understand the underlying theme of the paizo boards.
Since "martials" in this thread was designated as meaning, "one who attacks with a weapon and is focused on casting spells" then yes, many spellcasters fit that definition.
Also, if a martial needs to spend extra gold to match what the caster's get for free then sure, trade the ability for the ability to say, you get X gold for free. All classes get gold, and all classes can spend their gold. If you need to spend your gold on something another class gets for free to catch up then the other class has effectively more gold than you to use for whatever they want rather than playing catch-up to you.
Designated by posters other than the OP i guess,the op specifically referenced certain classes, anyone even remember what they were?
Hint: 0 6 level casters were involved.
useing only own abilities feats and magic items yes no buff spells requiredthe 2 builds that can get the highest ac use either no armor (theres a combo out there that can get high 50's low 60s with no armor at all)or mythril full plate(a fighter in mythril fullplate can get into the 70's with their ac)
So I agree with _Ozy_Using purely their own abilities? And at what level? I was talking around level 12.
Can they also get displacement and mirror image like the alchemist, which helps with the 5% auto-hit?
Its like halfling monk and fighter taking full advantage of armor training and a shield isnt it?
That looks like a 20th level fighter from Lady-J, Ozy was looking at a 12th level alchemist, so you're talking about quite different characters..
It can even cast spells.{. . .}
Consider the idea of class separation murdered. Most of the characters I've seen or played have archetypes, the base class is the exception rather than the rule. A theory that only applies in the case without archetypes is IMO worthless.
{. . .}That said, Fighter without archetypes looks not too shabby these days.
Spellcasting (unless you mean UMD or Item Mastery Feats) is a thing of the Child of Acavna and Amaznen, which is most definitely not a Fighter without an archetype -- in fact, it's a Fighter with a really bad archetype. If you want to do what Child of Acavna and Amaznen does, but do it better, play Myrmidarch Magus -- after figuring in Weapon Training (which also unlocks cool stuff that Child of Acavna and Amaznen can't get), effective BAB is almost never more than 2 behind and often only 1 behind (only at exactly level 17 is effective BAB of Myrmidarch Magus 3 behind), and has better spellcasting, even with Diminished Spellcasting, as well as better action economy due to not having to eat Swift Actions on Arcane Armor Training/Mastery, and 3 Magus Arcana in exchange for having 3 Bonus Combat/Metamagic/Item Creation Feats instead of 5 remaining Bonus Combat Feats. Not a pure martial any more, but the most martial of the Magus archetypes, and brought up to decent performance by the same things that bring the Fighter with no archetype up to decent performance. Myrmidarch Magus is borderline spellcaster/martial. Child of Acavna and Amaznen is just borderline.
That looks like a 20th level fighter from Lady-J, Ozy was looking at a 12th level alchemist, so you're talking about quite different characters..actually if you had the feats for it and didnt buy anything extra other than a +2 weapon and a clock of resistance +1 you could have that at level 12 not idea but possible
Armor specialization will be a lot less at level 12, and 108 000 gp doesn't go quite as far as you think - +5 amulet of NA 50K, +5 ring of protection 50K, +5 mithral full plate 35K, +5 mithral tower shield (if you can even get a mithral tower shield) 26K breaks the bank already.