My Intelligence score is the character's highest stat, but that's an element I don't want to dwell on. If a class is a good class, you shouldn't only value it at its most min/max'ed. That way, you can measure it against another class without presuming what ability scores it may have.
16 doesn't come close to min/maxed, especially at 9th level. For an int based spellcaster (even a partial), 14-16 is a normal starting point, depending on the emphasis: melee with some esoteric backup (which it doesn't sound like you did) or casting focus.
Measuring against another class is only effective if they're both built with similar or at least average expectations.
But I think at the basis you're vastly underestimating mutagens and other class abilities. They're not just a little boost. Shifting AC by 4 is pretty fairly useful, as is the ranged attack bonus. And that's the sort of thing you want if you're DM is constantly ambushing you for no reason.
You're also really undervaluing the ability of a light armor, medium BAB class, especially with access to lots of buffs (and some action economy shenanigans to get multiple buffs at once, like combine extracts). High dex and reach or ranged weapons has a place even when you aren't bombing or tossing down extracts.
Bombs too. Bombing should be selective, and often combined with a five foot step and free enemies (talk to your party, have them 5' step away from combatants to allow you to blow someone up). Party tactics are important, even (especially) if you're stuck not being able to pop defensive abilities.
Also look into the little things. Big combat bonuses aren't your thing, so look into the little stuff like poisons, which you have multiple class features for.
So, when it comes to looking at characters builds, I have a rule of thumb. If I can't apply a feature in the adventure, it's a waste.That hardly sounds like you, Llyr. The last 2 threads you started you were all about making your characters interesting and nevermind optimization.
I'm not being judgemental or anything, but it sounds like you had a change in heart, or maybe I was misunderstanding you.
Not a change in heart, but perhaps a clarification of my meaning. Yes, I absolutely am tired of optimization. However, there is a grand difference between optimization and a feature not being useful. I like a variety of tricks and nifty options, but simply having them if they can't ever help offers no benefits. Kinda like putting a spoiler on a golf cart.
Example... I've run a character that through a little racial twist had a 1/day stoneshape ability. And then for the next 8 levels we were constantly traveling over earthen ground covered in snow with nothing rocky nearby to use this ability. Making this little trick useless.
It's not enough to have a variety of facets to one's character and their class, but you want them to have a purpose as well.
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Example... I've run a character that through a little racial twist had a 1/day stoneshape ability. And then for the next 8 levels we were constantly traveling over earthen ground covered in snow with nothing rocky nearby to use this ability. Making this little trick useless.
That's not a useless ability.
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Example... I've run a character that through a little racial twist had a 1/day stoneshape ability. And then for the next 8 levels we were constantly traveling over earthen ground covered in snow with nothing rocky nearby to use this ability. Making this little trick useless.That's not a useless ability.
Kinda hard to shape rocks when you can't find any rocks.
Ok, so, for a different take on it (especially since you want to make use of the Mutagen)...
Try a Natural Weapon Alchemist.
Not nearly as strong damage output, but it's a build that's less vulnerable to Rogues suddenly appearing around you keeping you from being able to make ranged attacks. The nice thing about Natural Weapon builds is that they don't have iterative attacks, so the 3/4 BAB hurts less, the lack of proficiencies isn't a problem either.
I think the key is probably to go Master Chymist for improved damage dice on the natural attacks, mutagens being able to be used more often (essentially), and bigger hit dice. I've never actually done this myself, but it seems like it would solve the problems here. I see the worst problem being the flavor, but in theory you could downplay that, or, it might even be fun.
(Personally, I would take Dwarf as the race because of bonuses to survivability stats, Charisma being a dump stat, and the favored class bonus boosts your AC.)
Use See Invisibility extracts to deal with invisible creatures, and either take Beastmorph or the Wings discovery to fly, and be able to deal with flying creatures.
Hopefully that will help, while still leaving you with Bombs when you need them, and some fun extracts to mess around with, not ruining the class *entirely*.
Mutagen as more of a band aid feature than starring, the alchemical bomb being their prime aspect and every last element of the character building to improve that. Gotcha loud and clear.
It is sort of a bandaid, but imo so are the bombs. As I see it, at heart the alchemist is a 6-level "caster" with various self-buffs and a special damage mechanic (bombs, or sneak attack if you go vivisectionist). Everything comes together for the full package. It´s like the judgement and the solo teamwork for the inquisitor - they are some of their iconic tools and it helps them do their job when it comes to fighting, but there´s a lot more to the class than either of them.
Personally, I think an alchemist who is built for melee combat in mind can do well enough even after the bombs are done, but in that case you should have the physical stats and feats to match.
All right, I think I've got it guys. Thanks for the input. The main thing I've concluded is the concepts both me and my game master had are quite off the mark from how the mechanics of the class truly work. Mutagen as more of a band aid feature than starring, the alchemical bomb being their prime aspect and every last element of the character building to improve that. Gotcha loud and clear.
You can shift the focus with archetypes (getting a good weapon, for instance, makes mutagen much more useful). But the basic Alchemist leans towards bombs. Whether you want to focus everything on that is up to you.
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Alchemists are one of the most versatile classes in the game.
Even an unarchetyped Alchemist is a class that can hold their own in melee (between Mutagen, other long term buffs like Heroism, and melee or srvivability boosting Discoveries like the better Mutagens, Feral Mutagen, and Fast healing) while still maintaining a significant ranged threat ability (Bombs and THEIR associated Discoveries like Fat Bombs and Force Bombs).
They have excellent skills (not as good as their cousin the Investigator, but still good), solid problem solving in Extracts and Discoveries, and are one of the best self-buffers in the game (edged out, perhaps, by the Inquisitor and maaaaybe the Warpriest).
If you can't make an Alchemist work in a varied campaign you either aren't using all your abilities or your GM is out to get you (as in this case).
I'd be hard pressed to think of ANY class that would thrive in the kind of game you're describing. Since your GM is actively negating everything you do, you may as well all be playing Commoners. At least then you don't have any abilities for him to b%~@*%!# a way around, so you're not losing anything.
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A few points I'd like to make.
A) I think a lot of the issues boil down to group play style. A lot of your statements seem to be more the way your GM sets things up, what you are trying to do, and/or group interactions.
A1) Statements like the one about d8 HD, medium BaB, and light armor making him useless in melee. - Clerics are often built as melee monsters. I rarely use anything other than light armor even for my fronline fighters just because I don't want the speed, skills, and stealth penalty.
A2) Always ambushed and in melee before you can do anything. - This sounds like a problem. Is the GM just being a jerk? Do your fellows never try to protect/screen the caster types? Does no one scout anything? Does everyone have a poor perception? How are you always surprised at melee range? Is everyone tromping around oblivious, in heavy plate, in dangerous situations? You could add some scout capability into your bomber. I've seen it done quite well. If nothing else, you can use a tumor familiar to make a fairly decent scout.
A3) The 'must haves' that you insist are necessary just aren't. My casters rarely take combat casting. I've never seen a bomber take close thrower.
B) Any feature not used in an adventure is a waste. - I vastly disagree with this. I don't think I've ever had a build that used every feature in every adventure.
A friend has a Dragon Disciple that is primarily a caster. He almost never uses the claws, bite, form of the dragon, BaB, and strength bonus. At 12th level I think he has used them 3 or 4 times. But they are certainly not a waste because of those few times he did need them.
A feature that has zero chance of being used in an entire campaign might be considered a waste but still might not as a 'just in case for insurance' kind of thing.
Even if it is a waste. So what? Any complex class has features you may never use. I have a cleric that almost never channels energy because he has a charisma of 5 and channels negative energy, so it is useless for him. That doesn't make the class bad. My magus will never use all of the possible features of that class. There is just too much there.
C) This one I'm less sure of, so feel free to ignore if I'm off base.
It sounded like you tried to build your character to be good at anything it might be possible for him to do. That generally doesn't work. I can make a paladin that is a great mounted knight, decent field medic, or fantastic archer. If I try for all 3 in the same character, it won't be very good at any of them.
At the same time, I feel it is usually a poor idea to specialize too much on just one thing. If you build do be the greatest boom-chucker possible, what are you going to do when bombs are a bad idea? (The king doesn't want us to destroy the throne room. We need to take him alive and not damage the vase he stole. There are civilians scattered amongst the bad guys. We need to be quiet. Etc...) one dimensional builds are usually only good for NPC's like the King's Champion or something.
In PF you almost always need to have something you are pretty darn good at, but other things when that doesn't apply. I use the following 4 questions when helping someone with a build.
1) What is the primary thing you want to do in combat? Ok, you will need a decent dex and intelligence. Probably around half of your wealth, feats, and discoveries should be related to bombs. Adjust as you wish.
2) What is your secondary thing you want do do when 1) isn't going to work well. Ok, your dex is good. Make sure you put a few points into str and con. Buy some decent melee gear. Might want a dip into a melee class, but probably isn't necessary. Remember you won't be as durable as melee focused build, so use tactics and withdraw as necessary.
3) What is your primary role when not in combat? With your class and int, you should have plenty of ranks to keep those decent. Might want to also buy the whole set of PF Chronicles.
4) What is your secondary role when not in combat and 3) is not needed? You have a lot of skill points. Keep some in stealth, perception, and disable device. Get a figment tumor monkey familiar and he inherits your skill ranks. Buy him some mwk thieves tools. He won't be as good as a dedicated rogue scout, but still pretty dang good.
Just my opinion, but I think everyone should be able to answer those 4 questions before even starting a build.
And, I really just want to put this out there but if you DO have a martial, something like an invulnerable rager barbarian, or a beefy fighter/slayer/ranger with a high strength score. Take infusion, give them a beastshape2/monstrousphysique/giant form extract. It isn't glorious but in my experience playing an investigator, doing things like turning the invulnerable rager into a berserk dire tiger with pounce and DR 11/- with your extracts (a thing only one specific archetype of arcanist can accomplish that im aware of) will change a combat gone bad pretty quickly. Martials may be mediocre in a direct comparison to spell access classes but they're SO MUCH BETTER as an initial chassis for the polymorph spells you have access to.
If you want to dabble in melee as an alchemist it really isn't hard. You want the Feral Mutagen discovery for offence (3 attacks at full BAB) and the Tumor Familiar discovery for defence. The tumor familiar can stay within you for fast healing 5, or if you give it the Protector archetype it can come out and try to aid your AC and give you shield other. That's two discoveries or two Extra Discovery feats, which at the given level you could obtain by taking Breath Weapon Bomb instead of your 3 feats to otherwise use bombs in melee.
No, you don't have to specialise entirely in one aspect. You do have to make good choices to be effective.
Mutagen as more of a band aid feature than starring, the alchemical bomb being their prime aspect and every last element of the character building to improve that. Gotcha loud and clear.
I just want to touch on this. The Mutagen is basically more for melee builds. As has been said over and over again (sorry, we get a bit enthusiastic) you don't really need more Dex to hit with bombs, and Str/Con don't really do much for you in combat. The Cognatogen discovery will likely be the best bet for a bomber, as it improves your damage and the DC's of your bombs.
If you did decide to build a Melee Alchemist though, you'd have a vastly different character. Discoveries like FERAL MUTAGEN, GREATER MUTAGEN and INFUSE MUTAGEN might start to look more attractive. Having a buff that gives +6 Str, +4 Con, 3 natural attacks & +4 AC for 2 hours a day is nothing to scoff at. And remember you can prepare a second Mutagen if you have some downtime (and if you're worried Infuse Mutagen can give you a spare as well).
Then at level 14 you get PERSISTENT MUTAGEN which is a pretty big game-changer.
And with all of this, if you end up coming across an enemy that you can't reach with your fists you have a pretty great ranged backup built into your class (Bombs).
So you're probably right, your Mutagen isn't going to do a lot for the character you've made, but it CAN be an amazing class ability.
(Having thought about everything a bit more I'd be tempted to take the Feral Mutagen discovery on your alchemist and use it as an emergency button when you're cornered in melee ... maybe get an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists if your Strength isn't up to scratch.)
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I think that Llyr the Scoundrel got a lot more information than was needed or wanted. :)
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I think that Llyr the Scoundrel got a lot more information than was needed or wanted. :)
Realistically i think alchemist is a favorite class of the paizo boards.
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I'm a little curious what the OP does for starting wealth. Especially when you are starting with a 9th level character.
It's one thing to start low and try to build up as you go... but I sincerely hope you aren't being dropped into a 9th level game with starting cash...
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The comment about WBL is that even certain modules don't let players stay at WBL. There are a couple (Rise of the Runelords, for example) where players won't be at WBL for a number of levels, where they might get a chunk of treasure eventually, they will be significantly under WBL until that happens.
Remember that Rise of the Runelords was written in 3.5 initially. Near as I can tell 3.5 had lower wealth expectations than PF does. I can't find a full table, but it is mentioned in the Character Backgrounds rules for 3.5 that a 5th level character is expected to have 9000 gp (as opposed to the 10, 500 gp that a 5th level PF character should have).
I'd wager Rise of the Runelords falls in line given that kind of gap, which is a roughly 17% difference in wealth. If anyone wants to do the math on level appropriate encounters with expected treasure gains from each on level up to make a full table, be my guest.
A lot of APs also won't have PCs be at WBL, and even significantly lower than it, if a couple Perception rolls get missed. WBL can get wrecked if there is also a recovery, where a character gets resurrected, especially in the mid levels.
Not true on both counts either. For any of the APs I've played in or run (all written for PF) there is SIGNIFICANTLY more treasure than WBL available. A good chunk of that IS missable due to failed Perceptions or lack of exploration but even without that you'll be within spitting distance of the WBL guidelines one way or another.
Even Carrion Crown (a relatively wealth poor AP for a good portion of its run) keeps the PCs well geared for all books except 1 and 3. The first as a deliberate attempt to keep the PCs weak and unprepared for the challenges, and the second because you're in the middle of the woods with nowhere to sell all the Large sized Greatswords and armor you get, among other things.
As for resurrections, the expectation (as stated by Sean K Reynolds, and I believe restated by James Jacobs) is that if doing so would significantly put the PCs behind the track on wealth, the GM should add extra treasure to the mix to recoup those losses. The logic being that permanently reducing their wealth (and therefore power) leads to a "death spiral" effect that the PF system is designed to mitigate except in the very short term.
As others have said in various ways, you do your absolute best to get your buff on well before you hear "Roll initiative.", or pretty darned quickly (read: Less than a standard action) afterwards. What you don't do is use standard actions to buff.
I just happen to have a 9th level PFS Alchemist who is making a career out of Emerald Spire. He'll be a good example for this, though I'll admit the example starts to fray at the edges outside a contained environment.
At the entrance to every dungeon level:
A few drops of clear ear & the requisite 1 hr wait
Heightened awareness
Ant haul - often handing it off via infusion.
Amplify elixir + Alchemical allocation + potion of heroism
Resist fire 20 hp
False life
Communal delay poison & pass it around
Communal resist acid (since I typically fling acid imprecisely)
10 gp for NPC to cast lucky number at dinner last night
Crypt breakers draught, choosing scent
Dex enhancing Mutagen via discovery
Blood boiling pill, self-crafted
Smear alchemical grease, self-crafted, all over myself because I'm small and fear grappling
...I could do more, like antiplague & see invis.
And this isn't one of my alchemists that majors in... or dabbles in poison.
This gives me AC 26, 75 hp, Saves 13/16/10, +2 cold, +6 poison
Perception +31, yes, 31, with trap spotter. +4 if its a trap. In skulk mode, I'm taking-10 for a 45 in the pitch black & not bothering to slow down to actively search.
Stealth +29 - taking-10 without slowing down gives me a 34.
Disable device +22, +4 traps, or just mark 'em & go around!
CMD 22, +4 grapple
An additional +6 all knowledges (I'm trained in six)
Initiative +11, +15 if burning heightened awareness.
13 bombs queued up and maybe a dozen alchemical weapons.
He's our point man. After one hour for clear ear, and 13 rounds of eating/drinking, he's good to go for at least 90 minutes! He has a few mechanical weaknesses, but I wouldn't consider him squishy by any means!
He wouldn't be anywhere near the joy the play if he didn't get his buff on at 7 am. /Insert severe frown at 5E PHB gathering dust all by its lonesome on the bookshelf./
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I think you have a point, Llyr the Scoundrel.
So, when it comes to looking at characters builds, I have a rule of thumb. If I can't apply a feature in the adventure, it's a waste.
I think this is a good way of viewing character builds, and using it on the alchemist you sure get a fair share of waste.
Brew Potion is rather situational and might come up, as is Posion Resistance.
Poison Use, Swift Alchemy, Swift Poising and Instant Alchemy is near useless if you're not doing a very specific build. That's 4 class features which you could loose but never miss, even if you got nothing for it.
Many classes have class features that aren't very useful. Wild Empathy for Druids and Rangers is rather lackluster; there's seldom an opportunity to use it and even when there is, it's hard to succeed since Wild Emapthy uses your dump stat Cha ...
But the alchemist stands out with a whole heap of less-than-great class features. From a design perspective, this isn't optimal. It's cluttered and, to new players, a tad bit confusing.
However, it doesn't mean that the alchemist is a bad, non-competitive class. The remaining class features are great and it should be possible to make several substantially different alchemist builds without even going into archetypes.
Alchemists still are awesome, though I tend to use the Chirurgeon archetype over the basic class.
I think you have a point, Llyr the Scoundrel.
So, when it comes to looking at characters builds, I have a rule of thumb. If I can't apply a feature in the adventure, it's a waste.I think this is a good way of viewing character builds, and using it on the alchemist you sure get a fair share of waste.
Brew Potion is rather situational and might come up, as is Posion Resistance.
Poison Use, Swift Alchemy, Swift Poising and Instant Alchemy is near useless if you're not doing a very specific build. That's 4 class features which you could loose but never miss, even if you got nothing for it.
Many classes have class features that aren't very useful. Wild Empathy for Druids and Rangers is rather lackluster; there's seldom an opportunity to use it and even when there is, it's hard to succeed since Wild Emapthy uses your dump stat Cha ...
But the alchemist stands out with a whole heap of less-than-great class features. From a design perspective, this isn't optimal. It's cluttered and, to new players, a tad bit confusing.
However, it doesn't mean that the alchemist is a bad, non-competitive class. The remaining class features are great and it should be possible to make several substantially different alchemist builds without even going into archetypes.
Really, that's like saying the Wizard is underpowered because you won't end up using create demiplane every encounter, or contingency is weak because the trigger condition doesn't come up every day.
The fact is, when a class comes up where all their abilities are focused at one thing (think fighter), everyone calls that they're a really bad class because they can only contribute in one area. Abilities that aren't used every encounter aren't "bad" or "a waste," they're just used elsewhere.Take, for instance, the Bardic Countersong performance. You'll hardly ever need it, but on that *one time* you need it, you really need it. The alchemist has a lot of class features that come up in different situations, and the class is built around that.
Things like poison use might not be the core of the Alchemist, it's just a little thematic feature added, and allows the alchemist to use poison if he wants. If not? Well, they have archetypes for a reason.
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As far as wealth by level goes, the problem is less the significatly reduced WBL, but the fact that this is combined with low stats combined with tactics designed to counter the character. Any of these by themselves would be livable, but all three combined sounds like an extremely unfun time.
RE: Melee Alchemist
Barkskin. Cast Barkskin, it's a 10 min/level buff. There's no excuse to not have it up. That gives you +4 to your AC. Combined with your natural armor from Mutagen (+2), and a Chain Shirt(+4), that's 20 AC. If we assume you reach the max DEX a chain shirt allows (+4, if you were a bomber this should be possible with 14 DEX and +4 DEX mutagen), you can have 24 AC without items. This... actually perfectly meets the general guideline of 15+level AC for level 9. Carry a buckler to push it to 25, which should keep you ok until you get Greater Mutagen at level 12. Now, for most melee characters I prefer 20+level AC if I can get it, but the fact that this is without any gear at all outside of a MWK Buckler and basic chain shirt, means that this is actually really good AC. If you can score a few enchanted items then you may be able to front line. Oh, and if you get Mithral equipment you can push the AC even further, but I'm not assuming Mithral is a possibility.
If you go full Melee Natural Weapon Build like I suggested earlier, you'll probably have less DEX but the Master Chymist has a pretty amazing AC bonus (+Master Chymist level to AC). Alternatively, you can go Dwarf to push the Mutagen AC higher.
Then there's HP. d8s are as good as what the Magus has, who is also a frontliner. It's about 1 less hp per level than a fighter. If you shoot for 14 CON, then you'll be about as tanky as most fighters I build. With this GM, I actually recommend taking toughness instead of Dodge. It's an extra 9 HP at level 9... which may just be enough to save your life.
You can achieve a 10/14/14/14/12/7 (move the 14 in DEX to STR for a melee alchemist) on a 10 Point Buy (this is after a racial bonus), so even with conservative stats and no wealth you should be able to build an alchemist that can survive melee even with your GM. If you roll, the best way to deal with rolling stats is to suicide subpar characters until you get a good roll. ;)
TL;DR: In a low stat, low wealth game the Alchemist is actually able to be tanky enough to survive. Possibly tankier than most martials.
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○ While a mutagen might give a little boost to a single ability score and add 2 points to their armor class, the fact that they're limited to light armor, simple weapons, have the middle attack value, and d8 hit points makes them unfit to do more than plug up a hole in a melee conflict.
○ While they have extracts that are prime to "buff" themselves for conflict on top of their mutagens, that's more or less saying they need to use two standard actions simply to engage an enemy. This is tantamount to having to bundle on your snowgear while a snowball fight is already going on... most often, by the time you're ready it's already dwindled down or it's finished.
○ Melee attacks of opportunity makes them vulnerable to more or less do what they're built to do... be it throw a bomb or use an extract.
-no one is restricted to light armor. Not truly. Anyone can grab armor expert and use mithral armor without any penalty or proficiency. At least i you can use armor (or metal armor) at all. That and a multiclassing. Or just use natural attacks- you are well suited to it.
-Not really a problem. There is a reason why mutagens are 10/level. It means you use it when you enter a combat area before you get to any fighting, and just forget about it. Many, many buffs also work on the same logic and duration. Also, alchemists can have some of the best action economy at times...because infusions allow you to hand off your spells to other party members to use like potions.-yes, you can't do every single thing at every single moment. But options are fantastic. When you are a melee build, and you have a dragon flying just out of reach... you will appreciate having those touch AC targeting bombs.
Also, with a ton of discoveries... bombs are not just a blasting tool. They are basically a second set of spells that you can cast spontaneously. There are a bunch of save or suck bombs, and bombs that cause various different cloud spells that block sight, cause nausea, or just kill anything that hangs out in them. You don't really need the archery feats either- just use the bombs at the start of the fight when enemies are still grouped up so you can damage/cause various conditions to them.
As a note- it seems to me that you don't like anything other than a schrodinger wizard based off of your extremely high standards (and even those don't seem like they completely fit what you want). The game isn't made to be steam rolled- everyone has things they are good at, and things they are bad at.
Really, it is a versatile class, and even when you specialize in something different, you never lose the benefit of the other class features. Mutagens are great for everyone, and melee guys like to have a Touch AC targeting ranged attack they can use on the fly. And you can just hand others your buffs to use at their leisure. If you are in a situation where an alchemist has nothing it can do... then you are in a situation where almost no one can do anything.
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Coming late. Saw some stuff in the earlier posts I wanted to respond to.
-None of the alchemists I have played with bother taking precise shot. Yes, you take a -4 on nearly every fight.... so? You're going against TOUCH AC. You do want PBS, yes, because you need it for Rapid Shot, but beyond that...
I was wondering that. Popular opinion in this thread seems to agree with you. I'm currently putting together my first alchemist PC, and I want to focus on bomb throwing. I wasn't sure if I needed all the usual ranged combat feats to make the build work, given that touch AC is so much easier to hit.
Why are you in close quarters instead of flying around the battlefield raining down destruction?As I mention in my little hyperbole example... the vast majority of encounters are usually ones in which the characters are immediately put on their heels. They don't get to determine when a fight happens, and it's usually due to an ambush. So before anything, first round, BAM! You're pinned by a melee attacker. This is easily the case in about 75% of every combat round I play in.
You don't need dodge and weapon focus, you're hitting touch AC.Those two feats are prerequisites to get Close Quarters Throwers, so the Alchemist can actually throw their bombs once they're already challenged by a melee fighter.
You're a dex and int based character in light armor, who should have more skill ranks than you know what to do with. By level 9, Daredevil Boots are cheap. Max out acrobatics, and you should have around +17 to +20 (depending on dex) to tumble away from enemies before throwing your first bomb. And that's if you didn't bother with a trait to make it a class skill or invest a feat in skill focus: acrobatics. So with a little investment, getting your bonus into the low to mid-20s at level 9 isn't difficult. The toughest bosses you'll encounter (CR 13 or 14 demons, dragons, etc) may have a CMD over 30, but most enemies at that level will still be in the 20s. And all that's assuming that a 5 ft step isn't enough to get away from something with reach/multiple enemies/whatever.
I won't use my line again, but I'll rephrase it... if it's a feature you can't use, then what use is it?
Most characters don't use every class ability to maximum potential. You pick the stuff to specialize in, and then the others become nice backups to have that you rarely use. That's like asking what the point is of a wizard having access to all those schools of magic if he's just going to specialize in one or two, sometimes use some of the others, and completely neglect one or two. Or why do the full BAB classes get access to every martial weapon if they're just going to pick a favorite specialty, and usually focus on either ranged or melee, but not both.
If you want to specialize in melee, then you build for it, and the mutagen becomes a primary thing. But then the bombs are just a backup. If you're focused on the bombs, then the mutagen is less important. But you can still use it to boost dex to hit more with the bombs, or put it into constitution to survive longer if you do end up in melee that you can't avoid. That's what I'm thinking for my new bomb thrower.
If you're getting ambushed in 75% of your encounters either your GM has it out for you or your characters should really invest more in skills like stealth or perception. My experience is closer to the opposite of that, but my characters tend to specialize in scouting and knowledge.
Also, basic positioning helps. Marching order should always have high AC guys in front and back, while the squishy casters and ranged guys are in the middle, where they're protected. But that assumes dungeon crawl or wilderness march situations. If you're ambushed in the middle of a social encounter at a fancy party or something, then all bets are off, obviously.
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so precise shot for bombs isn't needed until you're making full attacks. At that point you'd probably want it.
-4 for melee, and -4 for cover isn't that bad when you need to hit AC 12 with your full bab attack.
-4 for melee, -4 for cover, -2 for rapid shot, -2 for TWF, and -5 for iterative attack puts you at -12/-17, now it's starting to look a little harder to hit.
meaning you'll also need precise bomb and fast bomb... good thing precise shot is a 2 feat chain you can get fairly fast and not a discovery.
I wouldn't completely rule out precise shot. We have an alchemist who routinely seems to miss touch attacks too... adding a -4 or a -8 to even touch attacks gets rough at lower levels. And considering you can't really negate any splash damage squares if you missed your target, I've been a hit a few times. Once dropping me from being unconscious to dead...
There's a lot of feats tossed around as mandatory that really aren't... but Precise Shot is one I would still keep on the 'really pretty valuable' list.
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It also depends on whether you're planning to focus on damage or more on the various battlefield control options.I wouldn't completely rule out precise shot. We have an alchemist who routinely seems to miss touch attacks too... adding a -4 or a -8 to even touch attacks gets rough at lower levels. And considering you can't really negate any splash damage squares if you missed your target, I've been a hit a few times. Once dropping me from being unconscious to dead...
There's a lot of feats tossed around as mandatory that really aren't... but Precise Shot is one I would still keep on the 'really pretty valuable' list.
Why? If you're using bombs, you need to hit either way.
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Not really. Stink Bombs are great if they also hit, but the main danger is the Nausea. Especially now that Nausea has been buffed.
Same for any of the other battlefield control Bombs. The single target damage is a bonus, not the point.
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Plus battlefield control bombers usually aren't TWF and Rapid Shotting, which reduces the penalties they're taking from other sources.
Plus battlefield control bombers usually aren't TWF and Rapid Shotting, which reduces the penalties they're taking from other sources.
So, if you want to do a melee Alchemist, the best way to use bombs (if you're not going Vivisectionist) would be to use bombs to create pockets of nausea fuel on the battlefield to keep enemies hampered, rather than as your main weapon?
Plus battlefield control bombers usually aren't TWF and Rapid Shotting, which reduces the penalties they're taking from other sources.So, if you want to do a melee Alchemist, the best way to use bombs (if you're not going Vivisectionist) would be to use bombs to create pockets of nausea fuel on the battlefield to keep enemies hampered, rather than as your main weapon?
Assuming you have the discoveries for it. I think nausea bomb is 2. Tanglefoot bomb would be a third.