How to deal with an Invincible Player Character. (Way of the Wicked)


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the faq is ment for abilities that grant you cha in adition to your normal stat to a save like dex and cha and then applying the paladin ability however if your charisma modifyer replaces your current stat for saves it would stack as it is keying off the stat and its not actually a technecal bonus.

example ability adds cha to reflex in addition to dex gaining the paladin ability would net you cha to fort and wis and reflex but would cause your other cha to reflex to stop working as it would be a ability score to reflex a cha bonus to reflex and another cha bonus to reflex thus not stacking.

however if the ability was to use cha instead of dex for reflex you would get the paladin ability and use cha for reflex and gain a cha bonus to all saves so ability score to the save in quetion then a bonus to that save equal to your charisma mod and stacking.


Lock him up with the rest of the party... then the Hunger begins...


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plaidwandering wrote:


just let them have fun roflstomping til its over

I think this is the best way forward.

The players would likely feel unhappy about being 'detuned'.

You could ramp UP the encounters, but that can be a bit iffy.

I'd probably just let it run its course and then move on to the next campaign with lessons learnt and no bad feelings :)

On a side note, congrats OP, you have happy players and that's an achievement.

Grand Lodge

You could also make all the enemies have Disruption weapons which is a save or die for all undead.

But that's a little too scary. :)


Maybe, although I'd argue it SHOULD be a standard buff for any Paladins they face. The PCs are well known by book 4 and they can get it for free on any qualifying weapon.


Hi Tim,

Dedicated undeadhunters like the above mentioned bralani ar a good option.

Ages ago while I was a player in the Age of Worms campaign I played a wizard. Flying around invisssible and casting disintegrate on undead works like a charm.

Or how about a Van Helsing kind of character: an invisible rogue with firearms/ray wands. This will target AC12 and won't allow saves. With +14 Att that hits on everything but a 1 and will on average do 30 dmg / hit.
Or an invisible gunslinger with undeadbane weapons making 4 - 7 attacks for 22'ish dmg / hit.

Flying invisibble casters should be able to target the vampire pest at AC12.

Also try making him fight caryatid columns and oozes this will negate his sneak attack and potentially destroy his weapons.

There are many options and increasing the CR of encounters is OK as the PCs character level no longer is an expression of their power level. (just make sure not to give them extra loot in the process.)

Which also brings in a last option: start reducing the resources you set at their disposition. Reducing wealth and magic item levels in the campaign will also challenge the players.

You could also take the sensible aproach to the problem and sit down and have a talk with your players about what is happening with the campaign. I don't think any of them will appreciate the entire last half of the campaign being ruined by this problem and will likely want to help find solutions.


Lady-J wrote:

the faq is ment for abilities that grant you cha in adition to your normal stat to a save like dex and cha and then applying the paladin ability however if your charisma modifyer replaces your current stat for saves it would stack as it is keying off the stat and its not actually a technecal bonus.

example ability adds cha to reflex in addition to dex gaining the paladin ability would net you cha to fort and wis and reflex but would cause your other cha to reflex to stop working as it would be a ability score to reflex a cha bonus to reflex and another cha bonus to reflex thus not stacking.

however if the ability was to use cha instead of dex for reflex you would get the paladin ability and use cha for reflex and gain a cha bonus to all saves so ability score to the save in quetion then a bonus to that save equal to your charisma mod and stacking.

this is wrong. You can't get the same stat to something more than once. They gave examples saying that if you replaced dex with CHA and then wanted to add cha that it wouldn't stack.

People brought up undead anti-paladin's as something that was nerfed because of this faq.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Lady-J wrote:

the faq is ment for abilities that grant you cha in adition to your normal stat to a save like dex and cha and then applying the paladin ability however if your charisma modifyer replaces your current stat for saves it would stack as it is keying off the stat and its not actually a technecal bonus.

example ability adds cha to reflex in addition to dex gaining the paladin ability would net you cha to fort and wis and reflex but would cause your other cha to reflex to stop working as it would be a ability score to reflex a cha bonus to reflex and another cha bonus to reflex thus not stacking.

however if the ability was to use cha instead of dex for reflex you would get the paladin ability and use cha for reflex and gain a cha bonus to all saves so ability score to the save in quetion then a bonus to that save equal to your charisma mod and stacking.

this is wrong. You can't get the same stat to something more than once. They gave examples saying that if you replaced dex with CHA and then wanted to add cha that it wouldn't stack.

People brought up undead anti-paladin's as something that was nerfed because of this faq.

exept that they stated that you could


funny how you're the only one insisting?

the exact example of adding plus a substitution was given and confirmed to be not allowed by the FAQ


Ughbash wrote:


With not being able to count a stat twice.
I am curious how that interacts with a Paladin/Oracle or Lore.
Example Paladin 3/ Oracle 3 and the Oracle has the mystery "side Step secret" which has him use his Charisma instead of dex for refelx saves.
Lets say the paladin has a dex of 12 and a charisma of 18.
What is his reflex save from stat mods.
The way I had read it before, he got +8 (Charisma from divine grace +4 and Charism INSTEAD of DEx from Side Step Secret +4.)
Now I can see it as +4 (divine grace but he can not add his charisma again) or +5 (Divine grace +4, but he can not add his charisma as base stat but instead still gets his dex). If the latter is the case the Mystery will actually make his save worse.
James Jacobs wrote:


Divine grace grants an untyped bonus to all saving throws equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier—in this case, the ability specifically calls this bonus a bonus, and by leaving it untyped, the bonus from divine grace stacks with everything. It does not replace existing modifiers to saving throws gained from stats.

A paladin/oracle with that combination would indeed replace his Dex modifier with his Cha modifier for Reflex saves, and then when he gains divine grace, adds a bonus equal to his Cha modifier to all his saves.

It's not technically adding the ability score modifier twice, in any case.


from the mouth of paizo they stack


that's from 2012 and is wrong now.


To be honest it sounds to me like your player is having fun playing the classic terrible Big Bad Guy, who can enact slaughter on an army level scale.
That is perfectly fine, remember that AC doesn't scale particularly well over levels and what is absurd now will be just decent 3-5 levels down the line. Push comes to shove, give the other players neat items and then crack things up.

Group of Paladins? Guess they're now divine guardian Paladins or Celestial Paladins, or riding golden wyverns.
Fight with the Eagles? Legendary Beast template. Or replace them with celestial Rocs.
Crank every metric you have up to 11, make it clear that the forces of Good have power as well, boil up the scale from heroic to Epic.

But whatever you do, don't arbitrarily depower the player character, it never goes well and it always feels cheap if you're on the other end of it. If you really can't handle then talk to the player on the quiet out of session and ask him if he's cool with a knock down so you can rest easier, maybe you can give him something else cool instead.


Send in a squad of clerics and focus positive energy multiple times.
Use ranged touch attacks.
A Sorcerer adapting the heavenly bloodline, throw in a classlevel that gives him smite and use rays for ranged touch combined by smite. Houserule that the damage from divine energy could not be healed by his fast regen.
Implement holy grounds on some areas that give him a debuff on AC, Saves and Skills.


Tim Matthews wrote:
Also I love awesome blow. Actually used that one earlier to great hilarity when a Fiendish Ogre ally of theirs led a rebellion against them. Probably too soon for more. Good times :)

GRUMBLEJACK, NOOOOOOOOOOO!

He's our party's favorite NPC. No idea what yours did to screw up his loyalty that badly.


Once the bad guys realize he is really hard to hurt they should go after the party members, and save him for last. I wouldn't have every enemy do it, but a good portion should. If any enemies decide to retreat them passing the message on to other good guys if possible is not a bad idea.


Have you considered

Light/Med/Heavy Fortification Armor? up to a 75% chance his sneak attack doesn't matter.


GM Moshado wrote:

Have you considered

Light/Med/Heavy Fortification Armor? up to a 75% chance his sneak attack doesn't matter.

that just gives them more valuable loot afterwards once the enemies are dead granting them immunity from some non item source would be better


Oozes, Aeons, Elementals, Incorporeal, and swarms (Duh on that one) are not subject to critical hits there for sneak attack.

Honestly swarms are a groups worse nightmare if they are done right even with a caster in the group. But you are getting to the level swarms have to come in waves for it to be effective.

Protean's have Amorphous Anatomy (Ex) A protean's vital organs shift and change shape and position constantly. This grants it a 50% chance to ignore additional damage caused by critical hits and sneak attacks, and grants it immunity to polymorph effects (unless the protean is a willing target). A protean automatically recovers from physical blindness or deafness after 1 round by growing new sensory organs to replace those that were compromised.

Who is to say you don't give that to some creatures also.

Now mind you this is only addressing the sneak attack.

As for hitting him. Feinting has already been covered but there also creature's who only need to hit touch AC and if you pair that with feint it really hurts.

Also, spells that require touch attacks don't always require saves. Like scorching ray ect.

Look into ranged touch spells. If you want to get real nasty look at a focused undead killing cleric.


ooo thats a nice idea make it a swarm thats immune to fire and lighting and has regen acid bit has acid resist 10 and you got yourself a doozy rogue wont beable to deal with it and there are very few aoe spells that arnt fire or electric so it will be dificult to deal with, if you really wana get them you could have the swam bestow curses with their attacks which would really slow him down


What about channel positive energy. There are lots of clerics available to my memory. Give them the Quick Chanel feat so they can still cast a spell and wear away at him with this. It won't be doing a huge amount of damage because he will almost certainly pass his will save but add in a 5% chance of running away with turn undead if you throw enough at him. Use channel surge for more damage at the cost of speed.

You could also throw in forceful channel to target his lower Fort save and potentially knock him prone - reducing his mobility and making him easier to hit in melee.

Multiple lower level clerics, 5-9 will eventually add up or get lucky on a saving through.

Of course the big thing is his coffin - how is that protected, don't forget there are enemies in the campaign that know pretty much anything you want as the DM, divinations, scrying, divine intervention!


Paladin gunslingers?


1) I would suggest creating a Nemesis for the vampire that foils his plans and is able to stand up to him in close-combat. That way you can at least drive him crazy and actually make him work for it to advance.

2) No matter how powerful a character has become, he's never too powerful to be crushed beneath tons of rocks, boil in a hot pool of lava, suffer from explosive decompression, be torn to shreds by a tornado, be immune to a Curse, immune to a Wish spell, or be sealed away for all eternity. As a GM you have a lot more rules and tools at your disposal than your players.

3) If necessary, use a Bag of Holding and a Portable Hole to suck him into the Astral Plane.


The Sword wrote:


You could also throw in forceful channel to target his lower Fort save and potentially knock him prone - reducing his mobility and making him easier to hit in melee.

I've seen several people mention targeting fort... undead automatically pass all fort saves without some real shenanigans going on (I.E. DM Fiat).


I think the aim is still to have a player talking to you afterwards...

... that's why I suspect these in game solutions are a poor second place to sitting down and having an honest conversation about what has happened and why it has become a problem.

90% of the solutions proposed, including the channel energy I suggested are going to feel like the player is being picked on/singled out/stopped from having fun.


werewolf435 wrote:
The Sword wrote:


You could also throw in forceful channel to target his lower Fort save and potentially knock him prone - reducing his mobility and making him easier to hit in melee.
I've seen several people mention targeting fort... undead automatically pass all fort saves without some real shenanigans going on (I.E. DM Fiat).

Ahh, just read that forceful channel only applies to living creatures and only negative energy. Good catch. Though it seems really strange because you would thing force damage would be better at dealing damage to objects than negative energy.

All the other points I made about channeling and channel surge/quck Channel apply though!


Also, check out the last book, one of the variant options is a vampire-orientated version of a certain hero from the game.
Behold, a personal antagonist.
Though I will say, for the channel energy suggesting people, the local god of the setting is fairly universally worshiped and priests aren't uncommon, so using some divine wrath could also make for a challenge.

Scarab Sages

Vampire PC vs Dragon w/ Anti-Magic Shell...
Better yet, the PC will probably be used to going around in daylight (due to his magic item).
See how well he enjoys being grappled while in sunlight. :)


I do have one other suggestion you might find useful...

Cursed items. An identify check that succeeds by less than 10 doesn't identify the cursedness, some items can't be removed without a remove curse (caster level check DC 10 + item's caster level).

Dark Archive

Werewolf, things with fort saves work on undead of they would work on inanimate objects. Disintegrate probably being the most obvious example of this.


W. John Hare wrote:

Vampire PC vs Dragon w/ Anti-Magic Shell...

Better yet, the PC will probably be used to going around in daylight (due to his magic item).
See how well he enjoys being grappled while in sunlight. :)

Anti-Magic Field is definitely a powerful (though aggressive) counter to the PC during daylight.

The chassis is going to be pretty weak if it is an arcane caster using it (as it will also strip his/her defences), but could work if a cleric uses it (given it is an 8th level spell for clerics, we're talking about a 15th level enemy).

Now on a group of Movanic Devas (who have it as an SLA and might be a more natural 'fit' for the campaign than a dragon) and their allies or leader... yeah, that could be bad news for the PC, or at least a very tough hurdle to surmount.

Alternatively, or additionally, you could consider having angelic enemies spam Plane Shift on him, with the intention of sending him to the Positive Energy Plane. While he will have to get hit first (albeit at Touch AC) and will very likely pass the DC check (barring a very low roll), even this somewhat low risk of near-instant death may keep him on his toes, and eager to dispatch or get away from these sorts of enemies. While this may feel a little cheap from a metagame standpoint, it is arguably a very valid tactic for savvy enemies to use against such a dominant threat.


The Steel Refrain wrote:
W. John Hare wrote:

Vampire PC vs Dragon w/ Anti-Magic Shell...

Better yet, the PC will probably be used to going around in daylight (due to his magic item).
See how well he enjoys being grappled while in sunlight. :)

Anti-Magic Field is definitely a powerful (though aggressive) counter to the PC during daylight.

The chassis is going to be pretty weak if it is an arcane caster using it (as it will also strip his/her defences), but could work if a cleric uses it (given it is an 8th level spell for clerics, we're talking about a 15th level enemy).

Now on a group of Movanic Devas (who have it as an SLA and might be a more natural 'fit' for the campaign than a dragon) and their allies or leader... yeah, that could be bad news for the PC, or at least a very tough hurdle to surmount.

Alternatively, or additionally, you could consider having angelic enemies spam Plane Shift on him, with the intention of sending him to the Positive Energy Plane. While he will have to get hit first (albeit at Touch AC) and will very likely pass the DC check (barring a very low roll), even this somewhat low risk of near-instant death may keep him on his toes, and eager to dispatch or get away from these sorts of enemies. While this may feel a little cheap from a metagame standpoint, it is arguably a very valid tactic for savvy enemies to use against such a dominant threat.

I mean, they don't have to know they're undead to kill them by positive energy plane.


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The Sideromancer wrote:
The Steel Refrain wrote:
W. John Hare wrote:

Vampire PC vs Dragon w/ Anti-Magic Shell...

Better yet, the PC will probably be used to going around in daylight (due to his magic item).
See how well he enjoys being grappled while in sunlight. :)

Anti-Magic Field is definitely a powerful (though aggressive) counter to the PC during daylight.

The chassis is going to be pretty weak if it is an arcane caster using it (as it will also strip his/her defences), but could work if a cleric uses it (given it is an 8th level spell for clerics, we're talking about a 15th level enemy).

Now on a group of Movanic Devas (who have it as an SLA and might be a more natural 'fit' for the campaign than a dragon) and their allies or leader... yeah, that could be bad news for the PC, or at least a very tough hurdle to surmount.

Alternatively, or additionally, you could consider having angelic enemies spam Plane Shift on him, with the intention of sending him to the Positive Energy Plane. While he will have to get hit first (albeit at Touch AC) and will very likely pass the DC check (barring a very low roll), even this somewhat low risk of near-instant death may keep him on his toes, and eager to dispatch or get away from these sorts of enemies. While this may feel a little cheap from a metagame standpoint, it is arguably a very valid tactic for savvy enemies to use against such a dominant threat.

I mean, they don't have to know they're undead to kill them by positive energy plane.

Ironically RAW Undead are immune to the save or die forced by the positive energy plane. And the plane itself doesn't actually deal positive energy damage, so it's actualy a very safe place for undead unless house-rules are added

Spoiler:

Positive-Dominant: An abundance of life characterizes planes with this trait. Like negative-dominant planes, positive-dominant planes can be either minor or major. A minor positive-dominant plane is a riotous explosion of life in all its forms. Colors are brighter, fires are hotter, noises are louder, and sensations are more intense as a result of the positive energy swirling through the plane. All individuals in a positive-dominant plane gain fast healing 2 as an extraordinary ability.

Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive-dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, which kills it.


I am running the same game, using same rules, if you think the vampire is bad, you should see the Anti-paladin Grave knight in mine. 1st thing you need to note about this 3rd party AP, it was made for the PC to be over powered, They are literary meant to crush and entire nation and take it over. By the rules of they are given extra skill points over the normal, 3 total traits. Oh yeah not to mention the half-fiend medusa cohort (that trivialize every encounter by turning everything that looks at her to stone.) or the half fiend ogre one. who stats are better then the pcs. The Vampire rules via feats is fairly balanced if you are trying to balance it vs other players in this game. (i went a simpler route then the feat break down. I let my player gain monster templates at cost of +cr=level) This AP is not meant to be balanced PC vs DM. The PC often also get to choose when they attack, how they attack ect.(normally DM fuction) The PC have a lot more narrative power in this AP, unlike others.(with often the option to take days or even weeks between encounters, with maybe only 1 encounter a day.) The only good AP i can think of like this is king maker. It is designed to make sure the PC's win and do so in Glorious epic fashion.

I would not worry about it, to much if all the PC have high stats, and are breezing through it. They are meant too. Few other things to note about the AP, and reason for the high pc stats and big boost to pc, is the game is made to function with a split party and still be survivable. (This happened a lot in book 2 for me, while pc's where defending their dungeon). So unless your players are having issues with each other and their character being like this; I would not try to adjust the game. Run it as it and as it is meant to be, with the Player trampling over the DM. Because in this AP the game is a role reversal, the DM sends small bands heroes to attack the BIGBAD evil guy. The problem is there are 4 or more Big bad evil guys + mooks working actually working together. It is not 1 big bad evil guy + mooks, which is normal game.

The creation system if you don't use the roll system for character creation the AP calls you to use 25 point buy system not the the 20 or 15 ones that other APs call for. So high stats are again called for. I do want to note that there is a huge flaw with the roll system, yes you get to pick the 18 and the 8. but the d10+7 roll, are set down the line, they do not get to pick where they go. So unless they roll really well for every score. Which looks like yours did. There is a chance they may not be good for the character they wanted to play. I had 2 players do this, one wanted to play brawler and end up very high int and wisdom, but lower dex and con. The other was sorcerer who end up with 18 str and super low wisdom of 8. He was already taking a hit on will saves from archetype he choose. I did have 1 of my 6 players roll high like yours did. My other players went with point buy option, I let the player pick what method they wanted to use.

edit: there are some points in this game where your this invincible pc is not so invincible, Combat on one of the bridges (there are like 6 cleric on the bridge that are level 8, even though he will make his saves their is enough channeling of positive energy to mess him up.) Also the phoenix encounter, is another. Also don't forget to use mooks to aid other(this stacks with it self) to attack so paladin's can smite, or in case of encounter on the bridge, charging smite. I dam near took down my grave knight anti paladin with this, because it was a critical hit.

edit 2: here another suggestion remove all magic items and use unchained ABP. This is a lot more balanced and will drop some of his stats a little bit based on his current level, but boost other things. I find my players enjoy this more then buying +x weapons armor ect all the time.


Firewarrior44 wrote:
The Sideromancer wrote:
The Steel Refrain wrote:
W. John Hare wrote:

Vampire PC vs Dragon w/ Anti-Magic Shell...

Better yet, the PC will probably be used to going around in daylight (due to his magic item).
See how well he enjoys being grappled while in sunlight. :)

Anti-Magic Field is definitely a powerful (though aggressive) counter to the PC during daylight.

The chassis is going to be pretty weak if it is an arcane caster using it (as it will also strip his/her defences), but could work if a cleric uses it (given it is an 8th level spell for clerics, we're talking about a 15th level enemy).

Now on a group of Movanic Devas (who have it as an SLA and might be a more natural 'fit' for the campaign than a dragon) and their allies or leader... yeah, that could be bad news for the PC, or at least a very tough hurdle to surmount.

Alternatively, or additionally, you could consider having angelic enemies spam Plane Shift on him, with the intention of sending him to the Positive Energy Plane. While he will have to get hit first (albeit at Touch AC) and will very likely pass the DC check (barring a very low roll), even this somewhat low risk of near-instant death may keep him on his toes, and eager to dispatch or get away from these sorts of enemies. While this may feel a little cheap from a metagame standpoint, it is arguably a very valid tactic for savvy enemies to use against such a dominant threat.

I mean, they don't have to know they're undead to kill them by positive energy plane.

Ironically RAW Undead are immune to the save or die forced by the positive energy plane. And the plane itself doesn't actually deal positive energy damage, so it's actualy a very safe place for undead unless house-rules are added

** spoiler omitted **...

The More You Know!(tm)

Seriously though, that is super strange conceptually, but I think you're entirely correct in the RAW reading of it! I had neglected to remember that the forced saves are Fortitude based.


Archmage lich inside of an adamantine Golem mecha armor battlesuit endboss on the positive energy plane goo


Lady-J wrote:
Ughbash wrote:


With not being able to count a stat twice.
I am curious how that interacts with a Paladin/Oracle or Lore.
Example Paladin 3/ Oracle 3 and the Oracle has the mystery "side Step secret" which has him use his Charisma instead of dex for refelx saves.
Lets say the paladin has a dex of 12 and a charisma of 18.
What is his reflex save from stat mods.
The way I had read it before, he got +8 (Charisma from divine grace +4 and Charism INSTEAD of DEx from Side Step Secret +4.)
Now I can see it as +4 (divine grace but he can not add his charisma again) or +5 (Divine grace +4, but he can not add his charisma as base stat but instead still gets his dex). If the latter is the case the Mystery will actually make his save worse.
James Jacobs wrote:


Divine grace grants an untyped bonus to all saving throws equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier—in this case, the ability specifically calls this bonus a bonus, and by leaving it untyped, the bonus from divine grace stacks with everything. It does not replace existing modifiers to saving throws gained from stats.

A paladin/oracle with that combination would indeed replace his Dex modifier with his Cha modifier for Reflex saves, and then when he gains divine grace, adds a bonus equal to his Cha modifier to all his saves.

It's not technically adding the ability score modifier twice, in any case.

James isn't a rules guy and can't overrule the PDT FAQ post.


Does this PC have spell resistance? Didn't notice any discussed. Have him encounter some quickened magic missiles followed up by empowered or maximized magic missles. Or 10th level cleric with the luck domain. Quickened true strike (first level domain spell with quicken spell) then empowered searing light. Same cleric at 11th level could do this a couple of times or substitute heal instead.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Raynulf wrote:
Christopher Dudley wrote:
Just at a first glance, his Deflection bonus from Smite Good doesn't stack with the +2 deflection he has normally. So good news: he caps out at 49.

Actually, he already took the non-stacking into account, hence why Smite Good only raises his AC by +5, when his Cha modifier is +7.

...*blink*...*blink*... Yes. Obviously.

I blame cutting down on my coffee.


Lady-J wrote:
Ughbash wrote:


With not being able to count a stat twice.
I am curious how that interacts with a Paladin/Oracle or Lore.
Example Paladin 3/ Oracle 3 and the Oracle has the mystery "side Step secret" which has him use his Charisma instead of dex for refelx saves.
Lets say the paladin has a dex of 12 and a charisma of 18.
What is his reflex save from stat mods.
The way I had read it before, he got +8 (Charisma from divine grace +4 and Charism INSTEAD of DEx from Side Step Secret +4.)
Now I can see it as +4 (divine grace but he can not add his charisma again) or +5 (Divine grace +4, but he can not add his charisma as base stat but instead still gets his dex). If the latter is the case the Mystery will actually make his save worse.
James Jacobs wrote:


Divine grace grants an untyped bonus to all saving throws equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier—in this case, the ability specifically calls this bonus a bonus, and by leaving it untyped, the bonus from divine grace stacks with everything. It does not replace existing modifiers to saving throws gained from stats.

A paladin/oracle with that combination would indeed replace his Dex modifier with his Cha modifier for Reflex saves, and then when he gains divine grace, adds a bonus equal to his Cha modifier to all his saves.

It's not technically adding the ability score modifier twice, in any case.

1.) James Jacobs has nothing to do with the rules. Anything he says about the rules is irrelevant. By his own admission. ANything he says in his thread is how they would houserule it.

2.) The FAQ is both more recent and, well, a FAQ. An already more official source.

I do not like the FAQ, but it's pretty clear how it works.


I'm a player in a different Way of the Wicked game and our GM has completely rewritten most encounters. We have 2 vampires, one soon-to-be death knight, one greater weretiger, and one devil-bound pc.

The key bit is have all the players balanced with one another, not against most normal CR-appropriate encounters.

Eg at level 16, our sorceror has an AC of between 50 and 60 depending on buff spells. We tend to fight massed clerics, paladins on celestial flying mounts, with angels backing them up. Our enemies get divine interference, and we get devilish interference to help us.
It really feels like we are important players in the long game between Asmodeus and Mithra.


Yeah that campaign was good. My PCs were a chosen of Asmodeus, a half fiend and a civilized ghoul. They had the regalia of evil (from the Book of vile darkness), the hand of Vecna and an artifact Level sword. They didn't care much about anti-magic spheres lol.

Dark Archive

Best way to beat a Rogue? Another Rogue. Get a Level 13 Rogue so you bypass Uncanny Dodge. Before combat, buff with True Strike. Then, on your surprise round, ambush him with a Dirty Trick maneuver to Blind - as he is denied his Dexterity and Dodge bonuses his CMD should be 23 (10+8 BAB+5 STR). Even without True Strike you should hit most of the time - it's more a precaution in case he isn't surprised. For every 5 you beat CMD he will be blind an extra round too.

When blind, he loses his Dexterity and Dodge bonus (which includes Combat Reflexes) to AC against the better Rogue and takes a -2 to AC in addition, bringing it down to 23. He will probably try to remove the condition on his turn, but you can just use Quick Dirty Trick to give up an attack and reapply it. If you take Greater Dirty Trick too he will have to spend his standard action to remove it, making him unable to fight back. If you succeed in blinding him at the start of a full attack, Sneak Attack and use the Crippling Strikes advanced talent to damage his Strength (and thus his CMD) every hit. 10 hits and he's down for the count.

To get that many hits fast, consider taking the TWF feats and finding a way to get the Haste buff (boots or a friendly caster could do). Decrease his AC further with Debilitating Injury for -6 once he's blind. At 4 attacks a round and a minimum of 28d6 sneak attack damage per turn he should be on the floor in seconds.

At least, that's what I'd do if I wanted to escalate, but that rarely ends well.


LuniasM wrote:

Best way to beat a Rogue? Another Rogue. Get a Level 13 Rogue so you bypass Uncanny Dodge. Before combat, buff with True Strike. Then, on your surprise round, ambush him with a Dirty Trick maneuver to Blind - as he is denied his Dexterity and Dodge bonuses his CMD should be 23 (10+8 BAB+5 STR). Even without True Strike you should hit most of the time - it's more a precaution in case he isn't surprised. For every 5 you beat CMD he will be blind an extra round too.

When blind, he loses his Dexterity and Dodge bonus (which includes Combat Reflexes) to AC against the better Rogue and takes a -2 to AC in addition, bringing it down to 23. He will probably try to remove the condition on his turn, but you can just use Quick Dirty Trick to give up an attack and reapply it. If you take Greater Dirty Trick too he will have to spend his standard action to remove it, making him unable to fight back. If you succeed in blinding him at the start of a full attack, Sneak Attack and use the Crippling Strikes advanced talent to damage his Strength (and thus his CMD) every hit. 10 hits and he's down for the count.

To get that many hits fast, consider taking the TWF feats and finding a way to get the Haste buff (boots or a friendly caster could do). Decrease his AC further with Debilitating Injury for -6 once he's blind. At 4 attacks a round and a minimum of 28d6 sneak attack damage per turn he should be on the floor in seconds.

At least, that's what I'd do if I wanted to escalate, but that rarely ends well.

undead are immune to physical stat damage

Dark Archive

Lady-J wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
Some stuff
undead are immune to physical stat damage

Well that stinks. In that case, don't bother with Crippling Strikes. Instead, take either Hunter's Surprise or Double Debilitation - the first gives you a round of guaranteed blendering, the second some added debuffing.


A bunch of clerics and/or wizards casting Intesfied Burst of Radiances from 3rd level slots. No save versus the damage, auto hit from 400 feet away. Better than Holy Smite and lower level. And if he fails a save he is blind. No dex to AC.

Dark Archive

WagnerSika wrote:
A bunch of clerics and/or wizards casting Intesfied Burst of Radiances from 3rd level slots. No save versus the damage, auto hit from 400 feet away. Better than Holy Smite and lower level. And if he fails a save he is blind. No dex to AC.

Uncanny Dodge. Unless he's fighting a Level 13+ Rogue blindness only gives him a -2 AC.

Although one could argue that Uncanny Dodge only works if the enemy is invisible and thus doesn't work against the Blind condition.


LuniasM wrote:
WagnerSika wrote:
A bunch of clerics and/or wizards casting Intesfied Burst of Radiances from 3rd level slots. No save versus the damage, auto hit from 400 feet away. Better than Holy Smite and lower level. And if he fails a save he is blind. No dex to AC.

Uncanny Dodge. Unless he's fighting a Level 13+ Rogue blindness only gives him a -2 AC.

Although one could argue that Uncanny Dodge only works if the enemy is invisible and thus doesn't work against the Blind condition.

uncanny dodge only prevents being flat footed it however does not prevent the target from losing their dex bonus to ac so long as an enemy uses an ability that calls for loss of dex to ac and does not mention flat footed

Sczarni

Overpowered Rogue Vampire; that's actually really funny. Because rogues , and power, are usually not in the same sentence. People are suggesting Wizards and Clerics, classes with actual power to counter the rogue.

My question is, are there no spell casters in the party, at all? Is the rogue the only problem? Are the wizards just using the rogue to kill everything with his pointy stick? Are there any wizards? Are the other characters doing nothing but eating sandwiches so often that you took special note of the rogue?

Also, that'll show you that the rogue, or any fighter really, never gives a flying crap about their feats. And if you begin to counter just the rogue, who spent all the levels prior dreaming of the day that they would actually be a challenge to things, and their soon-to-be worthless and wasted feat slots, then they will be the saddest panda. Especially if this level is the level that he got all these nice shiny things, and you had made his choice an available option to take long ago.

I mean, you don't really need to kill the rogue, he's already dead. His normal party role, the Corpse, is now a reality!


LuniasM wrote:


Uncanny Dodge. Unless he's fighting a Level 13+ Rogue blindness only gives him a -2 AC.

Although one could argue that Uncanny Dodge only works if the enemy is invisible and thus doesn't work against the Blind condition.

Blindness is just gravy, a 7th level aasimar caster with Spell Specialization, Heavenborn racial trait and Intensify spell can cast 10d4 Burst of Radiance. A hit squad of 4 such casters is EL 10 (I think) encounter. How many rounds of 40d4 unavoidable damage is he going to take? And they are really easy to justify being there.

Have enemy arcane casters send summoned devils against them, no help from smite. Fight evil with evil. Use spells with no saves and no attack roll.

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