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So I personally have made a bad-touch cleric with a good side-order of battlefield control, and I've gotta say I'm finding it quite fun.

Ultimately what you really have to do is train your party not to expect you to be Buff-O-Matic 3000

The easy way to do this is to only prepare very specific aoe buffs that don't take much effort to lay down (Prayer or blessing of fervor are usually the go-to's in this regard.) and after that, just go to town on whatever you happen to hate with a burning passion that particular day.


The Sword wrote:


You could also throw in forceful channel to target his lower Fort save and potentially knock him prone - reducing his mobility and making him easier to hit in melee.

I've seen several people mention targeting fort... undead automatically pass all fort saves without some real shenanigans going on (I.E. DM Fiat).


So me and a friend are in a campaign of way of the wicked, I'm a cleric of Zon'Kuthon (He can play nice enough with others that the DM didn't see a problem with it) and he's an antipaladin of Asmodeus.

I'm wondering what ideas you guys can come up with to play with his plague bringer. (I don't have domains, took the blacksnake archetype so I could be a bad touch/area denial cleric.) We're currently 8th level, going on 9 soon.


Tim Matthews wrote:
Also I love awesome blow. Actually used that one earlier to great hilarity when a Fiendish Ogre ally of theirs led a rebellion against them. Probably too soon for more. Good times :)

GRUMBLEJACK, NOOOOOOOOOOO!

He's our party's favorite NPC. No idea what yours did to screw up his loyalty that badly.


I would like to know a bit more about Zon'Kuthon and the Kytons. There's really very little to work with there.


Personally, I would make a lizard folk druid of Ghlaunder. The reason he would follow Ghlaunder is because (if I have the liberty of affecting the lore to such a degree) he realized that plagues, such as those spread by particularly voracious parasites, were the only real chance his people had of throwing off a much stronger force from a conquering nearby empire.

His ultimate goal would be to create highly durable and infectious parasites that would benefit lizard folk, but decimate anything else.

(Partially stolen from The Elder Scrolls series, it's said the plague of Black Marsh was created by an Argonian in order to drive the empire out of the Marsh; hence why it had no affect on Argonians.)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hey guys, I'm running a cleric of Zon'Kuthon in a campaign, and I'm pretty close to getting summon planar ally (standard version).

That being said, what I've noticed is that there really isn't that much being said about Kytons; so I'm hoping you guys can help me compile a useful little catalogue of what's known about them, or what can be inferred.

(For instance, why the hell are _all_ Kytons completely immune to cold? They don't utilize it in any way, and its an element that really has nothing to do with the plane of shadows.)


What spells should I take as a precaution when plane-shifting to the elemental plane of earth as a 9th level cleric? (Traded domains for whip stuff.)


As a general rule of thumb, I assume the guards are of average competence. So they're not just going to hand over the keys if asked pretty please with a cherry on top. However,if the players come up with something clever, or something I've seen work in a movie before I'll generally allow it.

As for any method that doesn't involve f**~ing with the guard, I'll generally plot out one course of action (Leaving the keys within sight of the PC sorcerer with mage-hand)that the players can use if they actually sit down and think about it.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

It's a nice item! But she's already got +14 on Disguise, giving her a DC 34 if she takes 20 (which she usually will). And while it is indeed a cheapish item, for a sixth level NPC it would eat almost half of her WBL.

If I stat up the 10th level version, then for sure.

Doug M.

It's only 1,800. The chart says a 6th level character should start out with 16k. And it adds +10 to any disguise, and allows you to change them on the fly.

(Unless you're talking about the greater version, at which point you're right.)


We jokingly call PC's 'murder hobos', but in all seriousness, they're a whole lot of one with a bunch of options on the second.


Hat of disguise. For such a (relatively) cheap item that can more or less look like anything, it is invaluable for an intrigue oriented character.

Trust me, as someone who has screwed up my GM's day far more times than I should have with that one stupid item, I can say with all certainty that it's a must.

(Hell, get the improved version if you're feeling generous.)


Avoron wrote:


The traditional low-level method is to just cast it on a shuriken, which can be drawn and dropped as a free action in an emergency.

Interesting ideas. I like the vial one in particular. That's kind of tricky.

I dropped my full-plate for boots of tremorsense (20ft.) since one other person in the party already has a pair, I think it might be worthwhile as a way to divide and conquer. (Cleric and magus pair off and blind a group of enemies while they wail on them, rest of the party takes whatever enemies are left.)


Oxylepy wrote:

Constantly use it. Then make a magic item that generates deeper darkness.

Nevermind no one being able to see, all combat becomes a 50/50 chance of anything happening, and with the stubbed toes, broken willies, and other nocturnal nonsense the game will be hilariously fun

As admittedly hilarious as that would be, Two of the players and the DM already want me dead, so I don't think that if my current character dies, bringing in a cleric that does this nonsense would last terribly long.


From what I hear, by that point trip investment is more or less useless. So I'd invest in something other than that. As far as everything else, it seems fine, but maybe find a consistent way to enlarge yourself?


I made a drow (Standard drow, nobody crucify me... yet) cleric of Urgathoa. I'm planning on playing him as a melee character, but I took all three drow nobility feats.

My only problem is that, while I _want_ to find a way to consistently use my Deeper Darkness, I just can't think of any way to do it without screwing over both myself and the party. Any advice?

(I hear Trail of the rose doesn't care whether you can see or not, for whatever that's worth.)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/trail-of-the-rose


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/decoy-ring

Bit on the expensive side, but well worth it for this kind of business.


Nator wrote:
If I get a new Pathfinder book, can I add Traits and Archetypes from it to to my current Characters?

There's a feat that gives you 2 extra traits. (Conveniently called 'Extra traits')


Does Trail of the Rose
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/trail-of-the-rose

bypass a characters normal inability to see? (Such as from Deeper darkness being cast in an area of dim light)


werewolf435 wrote:

You were actually being rather disrespectful. And this is an international forum. Sorry for the OT.

OT? (Sorry, I'm rather to these forums, so I don't really know much about them.)

I'll try to be lss so in the future


Qaianna wrote:


And there's one last issue: PLOT agency. The storyline is NOT a game mechanic. Once you're trying to determine whether a spell or other ability can alter the plot or storyline or world, you're introducing mechanics and concepts that are external to the ruleset.

This kind of discussion ultimately leads to tail-chasing or people who have different definitions passing each other in the night firing broadsides that they can't aim.

That's fair enough. Honestly I'm not hoping for a huge amount of progress on the whole, just a few neat ideas for my campaign.

This all started because when I was playing in a campaign, one of our players rolled up a fighter. The fighter was an absolute monster when it came to taking and dishing damage, but often times the player would complain (not during the session, me and him are friends and hung out sometimes.) about not feeling like they're able to have any real relevance to the story as a whole, since they used all their resources on combat.

If I get a martial character like that, I'm hoping I'll have at least one or two ideas by the time this thread dies off for how to handle making sure whoever decided to play the fighter, doesn't feel like they're being put in the dummy corner every time the party wants to visit a city.

edit:

he had talked to the DM as well, it's just that the DM didn't really have a solution for it either.


Nefreet wrote:
Robert Hetherington wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
You've brought a perfectly legal (in your opinion) character to a PFS event, and you encounter a GM who feels differently. Having encountered previous, similarly-minded GMs, you come prepared with a version you know they'll accept. Some minor twerk, like Weapon Focus in place of [that one feat].
I'm not certain that this is either a legal or desirable outcome.

I'm not certain why people keep claiming this is illegal.

It's a necessary adaptation for dealing with table variation.

I'm not going to play a Pregen, or leave a table, simply because a GM and I differ on what's legal.

I'm going to make it legal in their eyes, for that table, and go about playing the character I love, in the scenario I wanted to play them in.

The alternative is harmful, and benefits nobody (except maybe the ego of the GM in charge).

Honestly, I don't really know why people are so opposed to this either. It seems perfectly reasonable. Hell, it seems downright responsible. It's the player taking proactive steps to avoid extended confrontations that would take away from the fun of the experience as a whole.

(Fun being the entire point of the whole thing in the first place, why would you want to do that?)

And this solution doesn't even involve you rolling up to the table with two alternate reality characters that just happen to share the same name.

Having said all this, I'll be the first to admit, I have never played in PFS, and so don't really know much about how it works. (Wandered over here while looking for build advice.)


thaX wrote:
It adds to the innate magic that the Kitsune have. It is the main purpose of the feat, the tails are just "fluff."

Fluff-y*

fixed it for you. =3


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
This whole discussion of martial vs. caster agency seems to me an ironic reminder of the fact that the whole decades long controversy of the rewrite of "City on the Edge of Forever" was started when William Shatner discovered that Leonard Nimoy had one more speaking line on the script than he did.

Seems incredibly petty.

Honestly though, I'm of the personal opinion that this argument isn't anything like that, since (at least from my own personal point of view) it's people noticing a disparity in the abilities of classes, and pointing it out.

That's something important when you are trying to get groups of anywhere from 4-10 people together, and make sure _all_ of them are having fun and feeling like they're contributing in some useful manner.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Agency: The ability to effect the plot using rules unique to your class.

I prefer my definition:

Agency: The ability to effect the plot.

By that definition we'd be arguing over the amount of agency a class has compared to another class and then we'd run into feeling based arguments like "My Fighter used his familial connections with the royalty in town to do X, so fighters have plenty of agency!"

That's why I don't use that definition.

While I have to agree with your point about using class unique skills, rather than clever role-playing in this particular definition. I did start this thread to have a place for people to suggest ways for martial characters to _gain_ plot relevance _without_ having the GM need to cater to them specifically.

Not to discuss whether Martial/ Caster disparity is, in fact, a real thing.

With that in mind, do any of you have suggestions towards that end?


werewolf435 wrote:

Not sure, what you want to tell me. English isn't my native language.
Is there anything you did not understand about what I said? If needed I can try to rephrase it.

No, the intent was clear, there were just a few misspellings. From my understanding though, it's rude to change other people's quotes, even if it is just correcting spelling mistakes. So I wanted to make sure you didn't think I was being disrespectful.


Nazrelle wrote:

Is it, that you really want to channel energy through your weapon?

Or do you just want to martial option besides your casting?

If it's the second one, you would have two alternatives:

There is the Guided weapon enchant. Undoubtedly it is extremely powerful and some GM don't allow it.

The other way is for Longbows only. You take the Deific Obedience Feat worshiping Erastil. At level 6 you start to pick the Evangelist Prestige Class. You loose one effective level of your Cleric stuff, your saves will be a bit worse, but you get some other stuff like more skill points/class skills and a bit AC.
The trade-off here is, that you reach the Deific Obedience Boons earlier. At Evangelist 9 you'll have the last one, which gives you your WIS to hit and damage with longbows, when you are at a max range of 30 ft.

Both concept won't provide you the martial option in the early game, that for sure. But worshiping Erastil can give an animal companion, which can do the martial work. Also having a bit of STR and DEX won't be wasted with the Evangelist path, 'cause the WIS bonus is in addition.

------------------------------------------------------------

Otherwise the flurry option mentioned above is great.
With a bit of STR and some static damage you will also be fine.

(Grammar checked your post a little, and I'm sorry. I failed my will save to resist the little red squiggly lines.)

HOLY SWEET URGATHOA!

I can see _why_ it would be banned

I may actually have to re-work my cleric using this, thanks for linking it. =3


werewolf435 wrote:
So, I guess I didn't phrase this quite correctly (and am quite probably talking past you). It looks like your idea is for the fighter to essentially name-drop themself (as they're running their organization) to do things out of combat. Possibly some other larger organization, but it's relatively irrelevant which. I was talking about if the organization was ever actually called on to do something. Because if the organization never actually needs to do anything it's just pure Magical Tea Party. You're essentially giving the fighter a class feature that says "and out of combat you can just make some stuff up". That's... well, not a great way to do it. It will provide more narrative agency, but only because it literally just gives narrative agency with some fluff justification. And then you hit the issue of limits (which will almost certainly come up) that...

Ah, that makes your argument more clear.

Well, it's not an instant 'here's some plot relevance for a feat' button. The character actually has to build up the relevance of their organization, and will only really have an impact on people this organization is relevant to.

(For instance, joe blow off the street isn't going to care that you run a guild dedicated to the preservation of clown history. To give a _very_ extreme example.)

Also, they _do_ have people they can call on, but the vast majority of the guild is levels 1-3, so their usefulness individually would be rather limited by the time this feat got off the ground. (Roughly 9-ish)

I'll admit, this solution does have its own problems but I did so from the get-go. Personally I'm just spit-balling ideas for how to make martial characters feel more relevant.


So, I guess I didn't phrase this quite correctly (and am quite probably talking past you). It looks like your idea is for the fighter to essentially name-drop themself (as they're running their organization) to do things out of combat. Possibly some other larger organization, but it's relatively irrelevant which. I was talking about if the organization was ever actually called on to do something. Because if the organization never actually needs to do anything it's just pure Magical Tea Party. You're essentially giving the fighter a class feature that says "and out of combat you can just make some stuff up". That's... well, not a great way to do it. It will provide more narrative agency, but only because it literally just gives narrative agency with some fluff justification. And then you hit the issue of limits (which will almost certainly come up) that...

Ah, that makes your argument more clear.

Well, it's not an instant 'here's some plot relevance for a feat' button. The character actually has to build up the relevance of their organization, and will only really have an impact on people this organization is relevant to.

(For instance, joe blow off the street isn't going to care that you run a guild dedicated to the preservation of clown history. To give a _very_ extreme example.)

I'll admit, this solution does have its own problems but I did so from the get-go. Personally I'm just spit-balling ideas for how to make martial characters feel more relevant.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:

So the problem with this solution is that the problem you're trying to address doesn't go away.

A fighter with a hundred other fighters can't do anything that a fighter couldn't already do. If the fighter picks up wizard and cleric followers they're back to relying on the wizard and cleric to cover for them. Reminds me of the old joke: "You're selling at a loss, how do you make any money? Volume!"

That's not entirely true. If the fighter does recruit clerics/wizards/generic caster minion #31, he'll most likely never _actually_ interact with them on a personal level via leadership. (There's roughly 30 level ones, once the ball _starts_ rolling on leadership.)

Instead, he relies on the clout of his organization as a whole.

But even ignoring that, relying on a cleric from his organization, whom he is guaranteed significant clout with, is far different from interacting with a cleric from the party who may just decide they don't want to be bothered by Bob the human fighter and his insignificant problems.

(Not that that's likely to happen, but... y'know. Just for the sake of argument.)


Qaianna wrote:
I wonder now ... when the fighters, paladins, and other martials start trying to be plot significant, what usually happens?

I'm not actually sure... story time?


Insain Dragoon wrote:

Personally I'm a fan of martial characters getting fantastic as casters become fantastic.

The powerful archemage Zed, ruler with the dark eye, can spy on dissidents at his leisure! He knows that Goodman the bravesneaker is trying to start up trouble in his kingdom. Zed maintains watch on Goodman with his poweful divination magic, watching him go about his day, when suddenly he feels something in his chest pop and a feeling of spreading wetness on his back.

He looks back and sputters "Impossible!"

Goodman cleans off his stilleto and disappears into the shadows.

On the crystal ball another man takes off his Goodman mask and smirks as the sensor evaporates.

I see Mr. Goodman took a dip into shadow dancer. Was it only one level, or did he go whole hog? =P

In all seriousness, Giving PC's ways to pull of this sort of business actually seems pretty cool. Unfortunately, my party doesn't even bother checking to see if the BBEG is spying on them to gather their secrets. (As a GM, this kind of sloppiness is a tad annoying, but I think that's just me being a pedantic t+++ more than anything.)


Chengar Qordath wrote:

Part of the problem with just expanding he scope of purely mundane solutions is that there's nothing stopping the casters from pursuing mundane power on top of magical. Boosting up skills isn't a perfect solution when SAD Int-based casters will usually wind up with the most skill points of any character in the game. Bards and Investigators are two of the best skill-monkey classes in Pathfinder, plus they both get 6-level casting.

Unless you create artificial barriers, there's nothing stopping the casters from flying AND using minions to build a bridge. Or from using divination AND being able to play the political game.

Personally, I'm not really looking to gimp anyone, just looking for ways that characters who chose not to have magic won't feel like side-characters, y'know?

With regards to that, BL has some decent suggestions.

Edit

To clarify: I'm not trying to completely fix caster/martial disparity, just make the martials not feel like they're useless when they don't have something to punch in the face.


GeneticDrift wrote:

Not a build, but you should look at this archetype and these feats.

Undead lord archetype
Guided hand
Channel smite
Shatter resolve
Selective channel

archives of nethys

Thanks for the reply. I've actually gotten a pretty basic layout of what I'm doing.

Taking the drow for nobility racial feats (that spell resistance is going to be so... mmm...)

That's 3 feats, which is kind of hefty, but well worth it. After that, I'm getting him full-plate (another feat: heavy armor proficiency) and selective channel with the undead domain (yet to decide on the second one) for the ability to bop myself and get healed by my own channels.


So I've been toying with the idea of a cajun (undead and plagues are generally associated with swamps, so it just seemed to fit the flavor) cleric of Urgathoa who wades into battle with a scythe, full plate, and a horde of undead.

At the moment the idea isn't really fleshed out beyond what I want it to do.

Given that, what do you guys suggest for a build?

20 point-buy, third party and 3.5 allowed (with GM approval), level 6 starting


Arachnofiend wrote:
I think being connected to everyone important should be a Rogue thing. Even the Wizard's arcane society has arcane trickster moles working for the Rogue.

It's true enough, but I'm just going for characters in general who don't have magic to fall back on. And a warrior could set up a knightly order, or a mercenary band or some such.


BLloyd607502 wrote:

I've always found making decent use of the downtime/honor systems can really help more combat orientated characters outside of combat.

...

Basically, give 'floating' bonuses that can be invoked in most situations if they're creative, let them bypass traps and so on without rolling if they come up with good ideas and of course, don't be afraid to give them tiny packages of magic to use on their whim, doesn't have to be useful magic all the time.
But players can get creative, when they're given oddball items and will find ways to impress.

(cut for more manageable length in reply)

It's an interesting thought. How do you usually balance assigning the points? is it a static currency you gain through doing others favors (or do they also get a small amount for just generally interacting in a friendly manner?)


Ventnor wrote:
The problem with that is that casters can also take the Leadership feat. A Cleric could have the weight of his congregation behind him, or the Wizard an Arcane Society that he founded. And if those aren't helpful for the situation at hand, both Cleric and Wizard have skills and magic to fall back upon.

Yes, but I'm not really trying to find ways for the martial class to out-do the wizard, but just have some tricks of their own so they don't feel terribly useless in social situations.


So, feel free to take this how you want, since I know it can be a rather unpopular option (for good reasons, covered in many places over many posts.)

But coming from a particular thread discussing caster/martial disparaty, one of the main complaints that I feel is being made, is that martial characters lack the ability to influence the over-arching plot in any meaningful way, since they have to specialize so heavily in smacking things in the face.

Given that, I was thinking of putting up using leadership as something of a way to make up for it.

In this way, the level 10 fighter can throw around the weight of his organization to get his party in to see the king, rather than standing around while the party sorcerer baps him/herself with a few +cha spells and sweet talks the guards into letting them in.

It gives the fighter (using fighter only as an example) an interesting way to interact with the world through attempting to build the relevance of his given organization (whatever that may be) and also gets him some levels of fame, and social clout.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

What do you guys think?


A human (for simplicity) cleric of Urgathoa with

Str: 12
Dex: 8
Con: 15 (with the intention of a +1 level bonus later on)
Int: 10
Wis: 18 (+2)
Cha: 8

Favored weapon: scythe (decent damage,x4 crit, and trip special quality... useful for early on.)

Bump yourself up to fullplate, concentrate on self-buffing for damage (and a few potions, or a wand of shield wouldn't go amiss)

bap the scythe with unholy and you've got yourself a gluttonous plague fueled necromantic monster, ready to storm the battlefield.

This could be much more optimized, but I'm doing this all on the fly. And this will certainly take some set-up. (Aiming for PC level 6, roughly.)

Edit

15 point-by

Another edit (sorry, I don't know where my head is today.)

The point of this, is that you could have a martial cleric do some good damage, while also having decent DC's to any offensive spells he wanted to cast. (Hence the high casting stat.) Use buff spells to cover your melee damage, heavy armor to cover your defense, and then bap attack spells as necessary/desired.


FoolNamedFreedom wrote:
our GM now rules that npc's will just run away at the sight of combat so I can't have nice guards protecting me. Our summoner and necromancer now protect me.

but... that's dumb. They're guards, they literally fight for a living. Like adventurers that don't adventure. Why the hell would they be a guard if they're going to just run away from combat?

Also, go find a merc or something. She may say guards are too cowardly to do their jobs properly, but a guy you paid specifically to murder things for you shouldn't be; hell quietly toss a few enchants on them and you may even be able to convince them you're paying a fair price while saving some coin. ;)