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I hear alot about the class, so I made a character. I havent used it in a while as I didnt think of ways to get past the negatives.
1 Equipment is a big problem as Im in regular form the majority of the time. Best I can use is a Dragonhide Breastplate. Mithril would improvre that but it cant be used. Weapons, well Ive got a scimitar.
2 I dont know how in WIld Shape to have a High AC score as you lose your armor and you need Amulet of Mighty Fists to give your natural weapons the equivalent of weapon enhancements. AMmulet of natural Armor is very useful but you cant use multiple magic items in the same slot.
3 I cant find any buff spells comparable to Clerics' Divine Favor/Power or Wizards Heroism or Haste. I dont think there is anything close in offense spells to Fireball. Best I could think is to become a summoner specialist using up feats for it.
4 animal companions are very useful early on and get stronger at level 4/7. Long term they suffer as they dont have any class abilities, magic, ways to get extra attacks, low HP and so on.
I know of the spell Awaken but I dont know all the details. I think it makes your pet into a more complicated character that you can control somewhat with being able to take class levels being a major gain.
Right now I am underperforming as my Animal is doing alot more than my PC.
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I hear alot about the class, so I made a character. I havent used it in a while as I didnt think of ways to get past the negatives.
1 Equipment is a big problem as Im in regular form the majority of the time. Best I can use is a Dragonhide Breastplate. Mithril would improvre that but it cant be used. Weapons, well Ive got a scimitar.
2 I dont know how in WIld Shape to have a High AC score as you lose your armor and you need Amulet of Mighty Fists to give your natural weapons the equivalent of weapon enhancements. AMmulet of natural Armor is very useful but you cant use multiple magic items in the same slot.
3 I cant find any buff spells comparable to Clerics' Divine Favor/Power or Wizards Heroism or Haste. I dont think there is anything close in offense spells to Fireball. Best I could think is to become a summoner specialist using up feats for it.
4 animal companions are very useful early on and get stronger at level 4/7. Long term they suffer as they dont have any class abilities, magic, ways to get extra attacks, low HP and so on.
I know of the spell Awaken but I dont know all the details. I think it makes your pet into a more complicated character that you can control somewhat with being able to take class levels being a major gain.
Right now I am underperforming as my Animal is doing alot more than my PC.
Um, you are aware that a "jack of all trades" is, more or less by definition, a "master of none." In some of the older editions, a CoDzilla (cleric-or-druid-zilla) could outfighter a fighter, outrogue a rogue, outranger a ranger, and so forth, but they've toned down on that somewhat.
Your animal companion should, especially at low levels, be doing much of the heavy lifting in combat, which frees you up to do a lot of other stuff (and puts the action economy in your favor). You don't actually need much in the way of weapons and armor when you have a pet T. rex or something equally scary -- all you really need are the words "sic 'em!"
You also have pretty good summoning abilities that can put more meat and muscle on the board if you need it, which frees up you to handle utility tasks, esp. those that can be handled with appropriate wild shapes.
Equipment: Dragonhide Breastplate is pretty good for armor once you get it. Before that there is lammelar leather armor. Alternatively, you could take one level of monk and double down on wisdom and ditch armor altogether. For weapons, scimitar+wooden shield for when you need AC, scythe for when you need damage, sling can help with range, as can acid flasks (10 gp/shot, but touch attack and aoe). Or you can use natural weapons for melee instead.
AC: One level of monk can give an AC bump in wildshape, or you can spring for barding to stack on to your favorite wildshape forms. Popular options include dire tiger, behemoth hippopotamus, and various dinosaurs. Also there is barkskin (extend w/rod and have a few scroll backups eventually if you frequently have either long or irregular adventuring days) which stacks with your wildshape bonuses. Wild armor is another (admittedly expensive) option, as is getting a friendly wizard to help you get mage armor (buy him a Pearl of power if he complains about using his resources). If you aren't mixing things up in melee you can be a small elemental or bat for dex and size bonuses to AC, and with the latter some DR.
Buffs: Greater Magic Fang can be helpful , eliminating a need for an amulet of mighty fists if you like having one big attack (see Behemoth Hippopotamus for more details), and strongjaw has great synergy with this. Animal Growth is fantastic for your animal (+8 strength is no laughing matter), and of course, wild shape gives you a strength bonus (which outpaces the size penalty to attack), and a lot of attacks to try with (unless you focus on one big attack). You also will often be able to flank with your animal companion.
Animal Companion: Careful application of buffs (Animal Growth comes online about the same time the stronger companion starts slipping, strongjaw and greater magic fang will help, and barkskin can be up for a long time) along with investments in armor proficiency and barding, can keep the right animal companions relevant through fairly high levels. If you raise its intelligence to 3 you can teach it feats like outflank and blades above blades below to get flanking pretty often, and a pretty large bonus from said flanking. Eventually it will trail behind a little in damage, but this is largely the last quarter of the game from my experience.
You v. Your companion: To an extent, you are supposed to be behind your animal early on in the game, and ahead later as you gain more magic and wild shape abilities. The balance is that you cover each others weaknesses in the outer quarters of the game (1-4 animal protects you and does heavy lifting, 16-20 roles reverse) so that levels 5-15 you are both fairly fantastic. It is generally best to have a companion which is fairly tanky at low levels, then trade for a pouncing companion like allosaurus or big cat. However, if you are really upset with your animal companion (which you still are playing as) being better than your druid (which you are playing as), try hunter instead for better group dynamics and armor/weapons in exchange for some spellcasting and your wildshape ability. Or you could play a druid in DnD 3.5, CoDzilla style.
On 3: Druids are better at battlefield control spells than blasting, and their buffs are focused on improving animals, summoned or otherwise.
e.g. Frost Fall with Rime Spell, Entangle, Sickening Entanglement, Aquaeous Orb, Slowing Mud for control.
e.g.2. Acid Maw, Bristle, Atavism, Strong Jaw to buff animals.
You can cast barkskin and wear an or cast greater magic fang and wear an . When you're very rich, you can combine both into the same amulet. But when you're just rich, you can use a .
In 3.5, I played an elf archer druid and he could do everything. He was very versatile. His war dog had the highest AC in the party, which included a board-and-khopesh fighter. But he didn't outshine anyone, and doing the proper prep work ahead of time meant I had my summons and wildshapes pre-calculated, so I didn't hog all the table time.
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I'm going to guess, just a shot in the dark really, that this topic ends with ChaosTicket saying Druids are worthless as-is, and should be Full-BAB with 8 + Int ranks per level and 3.5e Wildshape.
Weapons are for muggles. That is what wild shape is for. If you must get a quarterstaff and start using shillehlah. A scroll of Ironwood might also be a good investment
Barkskin. Buy a pearl of power and ask the wizard for mage armor while your in animal form. You can also buy/make barding for yourself as wild shape does last long enough to merit having a few sets of mundane armor for your common forms. Theres a reason I always take leatherworking. A feat for heavy armor proficentcy might be worth it if you can procure sufficent dragonhide.
Just looking at the druid spell list they seem to have most their power as over time effects. Their damage spells are all multi use per casting but lower damage per hit. Many of their control/debuff spells can be repositioned/change targets. Unlike wizard/sorc spells that change the battlefeild dramatically with each spell, druids seem to change the world in a slow but on an even larger scale. Ie fireball 10d6 fire damage vs call lightning 30d6 over 10 rounds. Also they do have some great buff spells their just for your summons/companion. Also for self buffing there exists wild shape
DO NOT awaken your companion. Instead buff his int to 3 with an ability score increase. Much better, much cheaper, and he stays your animal companion. Also yes he is supposed to be stronger than you for early levels. His job is to guard the wannabe until he comes into his proper state as natures wrath incarnate
Check Treeantmonk's and Prometheus's guides for some very good advice on building a druid
Racial weapon proficiencies can help out with equipment. Ironwood armor allows some of the heavier kinds.
My favorite Druid race is probably the Dwarf. Samsarans can do some weird spell shenanigans though.
1) you're a druid you don't need weapon proficiency, for Armour the dream is the Wild enchantment, prior to that a wand of mage armor or a pearl or power for your resident caster is ideal
2) for amulets get one and cast barkskin or magical fang to fill in the gap the other one leaves, cast both on your animal companion.
3) for buffs you have Barkskin, Stoneskin, Magical fang, Strong Jaw, Vine Strike is another fun one. You don't get fireball you get more spells that have a lot of damage over a lot of turns, the typical MO is to attack rider effects to these spells, the best of which is dazing.
4) you're there to buff your animal companion, done properly it will only start to lag behind around level 15, when you have 8th level spells. Don't awaken him and yes he does more damage than you now, he is meant to.
Druids abilities are more niche powers than others Ive seen. Terrain is a major factor on some spells.
Most of the druids buffs Ive seen are for natural attacks and maybe your animal companion. Some of the buffs become obsolete by equipment. Bull's strength is a pretty good buff until you get a Strength Belt as they dont stack. Barkskin or Amulet of natural armor, not both.
By comparison Divine Favor doesnt ever become obsolete, just not as powerful as Divine Power. I dont know where I can find scaling or stacking buffs in druid spells. Where are the Druid's hit bonuses?
I think the Druid may be a Master of None as the more versatile/potent buffs are on the Cleric and Wizard. Having a partner cast those things on you may be essential. Having Shield, Mage Armor, Shield of Faith, Haste, Heroism, etc cast on you by a friend has major potential. Oh how many wands would I need as a Druid?
I appreciate the Wizard's and Cleric's buffs more now.
Im probably missing something like a +5 attack/damage/AC spell or a weaker one that stacks with everything.
Edit: is +1 Wild Stoneplate worth it? No penalties in wild shape just the AC bonus. Can a SHield be Wild enchanted?
Edit: is +1 Wild Stoneplate worth it? No penalties in wild shape just the AC bonus.
I'm afraid there was a FAQ about this point, and the answer is "no."
Wild armor and other transforming armor: When I use a wild armor and gain the armor’s benefits, what restrictions, if any, apply to me? In general, when I transform with a polymorph effect and some of my gear melds into the form, what restrictions do I have for melding with large amounts of heavy gear? What about other types of transforming armor?If you were in medium or heavy load from encumbrance before transforming, you continue to take those penalties in your melded form. Otherwise, ignore the weight of melded items and calculate your encumbrance in your polymorphed form entirely based on non-melded items. When wearing melded armor and shields, if you gain no benefit from the melded armor, you still count as wearing an armor of that type, but you do not suffer its armor check penalty, movement speed reduction, or arcane spell failure chance. If you do gain any benefits (as with the wild property), then you do suffer the armor check penalty, movement speed reduction, and arcane spell failure chance. This also applies to all other situations where you or an armor transform: you always count as wearing an armor of that type, and if you gain any benefit at all from the armor (such as mistmail), you apply the armor check penalty, movement speed reduction, and arcane spell failure chance.
posted July 2015
One other thing to keep in mind about druids: they have great power over the natural world (plants, animals, weather, elements). They don't really have a lot of spells that help against outsiders or high-powered undead, or anything that can't be physically attacked.
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Weapons are for muggles. That is what wild shape is for. If you must get a quarterstaff and start using shillehlah. A scroll of Ironwood might also be a good investment
Barkskin. Buy a pearl of power and ask the wizard for mage armor while your in animal form. You can also buy/make barding for yourself as wild shape does last long enough to merit having a few sets of mundane armor for your common forms. Theres a reason I always take leatherworking. A feat for heavy armor proficentcy might be worth it if you can procure sufficent dragonhide.
Just looking at the druid spell list they seem to have most their power as over time effects. Their damage spells are all multi use per casting but lower damage per hit. Many of their control/debuff spells can be repositioned/change targets. Unlike wizard/sorc spells that change the battlefeild dramatically with each spell, druids seem to change the world in a slow but on an even larger scale. Ie fireball 10d6 fire damage vs call lightning 30d6 over 10 rounds. Also they do have some great buff spells their just for your summons/companion. Also for self buffing there exists wild shape
DO NOT awaken your companion. Instead buff his int to 3 with an ability score increase. Much better, much cheaper, and he stays your animal companion. Also yes he is supposed to be stronger than you for early levels. His job is to guard the wannabe until he comes into his proper state as natures wrath incarnate
Check Treeantmonk's and Prometheus's guides for some very good advice on building a druid
Nice advice, specially on the guides ;D
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1. Yep. You'll need magic to augment your armor. It's not very exciting, but you're in better shape than the wizard, and you've got a d8 rather than a d6. Additionally, you've got healing in a pinch. Another possible approach once it's put up- the Swarm Monger from Blood of Beasts gets easy access to some temporary hitpoints several times per day. As for weapons, scimitar isn't the worst, but you can take the Legacy Weapon trait for something stronger, or rely on Shillelagh.
2. Still need magic. You're a full caster, so this shouldn't come as too much of a shock. You don't get this until you have access to Barkskin.
3. You've got a lot of battlefield control, but your buffs are pretty narrow in scope. If that's a problem, you have a few options. The various obedience feats get you some SLAs at 12th level, and I'm sure Haste is on some of them 1/day. (Might want to keep an eye on First World: Realm of the Fey for some more Druid-friendly options there.) Samsaran can use Mystic Past Life to get access to Blessing of Fervor. You can trade out your animal companion for the Plains domain, which will give you Haste.
If you're going for jack of all trades, Fey Spell Lore is a must-have. Curses, illusions, and charms, all of which you're missing. You'll also want to consider Summon Guardian Spirit which allows you to use your summoning spells to summon a customized guardian spirit which will be able to cast spells on your behalf (each once per day). It has a minute per level duration, a big improvement over your regular summons.
4. If your animal companion is doing well, you're not underperforming. Your animal companion is part of what your character brings to the table. Once you hit level 13, you can start buffing them in combat with the Form of Exotic Dragon spell line (you'll want some AC boosters in there too). If you don't mind sacrificing evasion/improved evasion, you can some more utility out of them with the Totem Guide animal companion archetype, giving you some more spontaneous casting options for utility spells.
There are also some feats that are useful for improving your companion. Evolved Companion is good for a skill boost, extra natural attack, increased AC, or pounce for quadruped companions. Spirit's Gift will give you a flexible minute-per-level buff useable once per day. DR 5/Adamantine is pretty good, and there are a few interesting utility options like speech or limited flight. And while not a feat exactly, humans can trade in their bonus feat for +2 to any of their companion's stats. If it dies in a particular unpleasant fashion, you might talk to your GM about Fluffy 2.0 being a corrupted animal companion (Horror Realms), since your strong will saves limit how frequently the drawbacks will hit you.
If you're concerned about its performance at higher levels and would prefer to reverse the trend (weak at low levels, powerful near the end), I'd check out Swarm Monger from Blood of Beasts. It gets you a familiar, but one that you can turn into a swarm. Swarms of fine-sized creatures will mess up anything except blasters, and at twelfth level enemies will need to save vs. nauseated every round. Weak damage, but better health (equal to your own) and auto-hit with nasty riders. Immunity to weapon damage, numbered-target spells, tripping, grappling, bull rushes, crits, and flanking is pretty great.
Not needing armor and Enhancement bonus to STR/DEX is a huge bonus up to level 10.
Armor can be solved with Mage Armor, it's a free +4 to AC. Wild enhancement used to be good, now there are so many penalties and costs associated is not even worth. Barding solves a lot of other issues as well. Barding is armor and can be enhanced.
At level 1 WIS 14 is more than enough, with +6 to it you get access to level 9 spells. You don't need INT or WIS, so it's quite cheap.
Any bonus to STR/DEX/COn through belts you can get it's just a bonus. You have spells to buff yourself and wildshape.
Animal Companion can give you a +4 to hit with Outflank through proper building. There's also a build to give it Aid Another to AC as free action or immediate and last 1 entire round, pumping your AC for free basically (Harrying Partners).
It all depends what you want with your AC. Also, depends on your character, you can keep changing your AC as many times you want for free.
Maybe you can a Dino for forest terrain and an eagle for desert. Depending on DM you could potentially have several ACs built and each time you change them you change their Feats/Skills.
You can go from having a scout to having a charger/flanker/aid another build.
At level 1 WIS 14 is more than enough, with +6 to it you get access to level 9 spells. You don't need INT or WIS, so it's quite cheap.
Any bonus to STR/DEX/COn through belts you can get it's just a bonus. You have spells to buff yourself and wildshape.
This depends on the type of druid you want to play. Druids actually get a number of useful control and attack spells (e.g. entangle, call lightning, vine strike) so completely tanking your saving throw DC may cut into your preferred play style. While it's perfectly possible to play a pure buffer-and-summoner druid, it's also possible to play a druid to takes a more direct role -- and even to switch back and forth from day to day, depending upon which spells you prepare.
One key aspect of druids is their flexibility, which applies in combat as well. You don't need awesome fighter-level strength when you're tag-teaming with a dire bear, or even when you're using your mobility and reach to mess people up from a position they can't reach.
Where are the Druid's hit bonuses?
Wildshape. Animal forms all grant a +1 attack if you are STR based and growing, as do all the earth elemental body's. In addition, you get to make all natural attacks at full BAB instead of the lower attack bonus for second/third attacks. This should be able to keep attack bonuses up for a while.
Now lets compare to a cleric with similar base stats, but a +3 weapon, divine power, and fate's favored. Attack bonus is +17/+17/+12. So, only two attacks outpace you, and in round one you get to charge in with 5 more attacks than they will get that fight, as they are spending the round buffing. Or without the buff they get +14/+9, far inferior to your 3-5 attacks.
Why did I choose CR 10? Because looking only at CR=level creatures doesn't represent particularly difficult fights (2-3 creatures with CR=APL+1-2) and often creatures with high AC for their CR wind up being at an average AC for 2-3 levels higher (with lower damage)
In what world is someone casting all of this
Shield, Mage Armor, Shield of Faith, Haste, Heroism, etc cast'
during combat and actually meaningfully contributing? by the time you've cast your 4+ buffs (ignoring mage armor since that can be cast in advance) the combat should be decided.
A druid can go Wild Shape combat form, Barkskin/Magic fang, Vine Snare, Strong Jaw, Thorn Body should it want to but it would be just about finished when the rest of its party had wiped/cleared the encounter.
as for this
+5 attack/damage/AC spell
excluding AC this is called Wildshape and is one of the major selling points of the class. At level 6 a Dire tiger pouncing and full attacking with Magic Fang and Vine Snare up should be streaking away from a level 6 cleric.
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Good druid ac at 6th level
Have a decent dex say 12 - 14, lets say 14.
Wild Shape into Small Earth Elemental.
Put on dragonhide breastplate size small, made for humanoid earth elemental shape (have natural spell to cast)
Grab heavy wooden shield
Cast Barkskin on yourself
Put on a ring of protection +1, grab Dodge as feat maybe
Base 10
Armor 6
Natural Armor 4
Size 1
Barkskin 3
Dex 2
Shield 2
Dodge 1
Deflection 1
Total AC 30
plus with Greater Magic Fang you have a +1 1d6 Slam that does 1.5 Str damage.
Start with a 17 Str (15 + 2 race), 18 with 1 from level up. + 2 Wild Shape, +2 Belt of Giant Str. Get Power attack. You do 1d6 + 9 (str) +1 (GMF) + 6 (power attack) for 1d6 + 16. You have a +10 to hit (4 Bab, 6 str, 1 size, 1 GMF, -2 power attack)
Ok going down the list.
#1 is AC. There are some alternatives but Druid just has really bad rules in this regard. Normally I would go through different tiers of armor starting at whatever I can afford until I get to Celestial Armor.
#2 Buffs. looking for potent but specialized like Shield, scaling ones like Divine Favor, or all rounders like Heroism. Vine strike is great for natural attack damage but no hit boosts or what about buffs to normal form?
#3 crowd control. Looking for a solid crowd control spell every tier. If I cant attack then at least allow me to lock down every encounter
#4 offense spells. Okay so I cant have Fireball or Disintegrate. Still looking for spells that can actually kill the enemy, like a curse or something.
So Im seeing alot of abilities but the synergy is bad.
AT this point, yep, Im looking for something to sell the Druid as a class as powerful not just alot of separate abilities.
Yeah its probably unrealistic for some classes or have a 50%+ chance to hit or to have a ranged attack that can actually kill while still being strong in melee.
TLDR
Solutions/suggestions
1. Stone-Plate, Snakescale Armor, Warden of the Woods, Staff of the Woodlands, Beaststrike Club and heavy wooden shield
2. Wild magic property allows you to retain your armor's armor bonus while using Wild Shape. Amulet of Mighty Fists for natural attacks.
3. -3rd: Animal Aspect Greater, Call Lightning, Cup of Dust, Fungal Infestation, Thorny Entanglement -4th: Atavism, Caustic Blood, Flame Strike, Obsidian Flow.
4. Evolve Companion, Totem Beast, Spirit's Gift, Improve Natural Attack.
Awaken can give sentience to an animal or tree. This new creature becomes capable of speech and remains loyal to you until you awaken something else, at that point it remains friendly but only helps you if it's in it's own interests.
Basically, this gives you a FREE Cohort. The rules don't cover how to determine the CR if you awaken an animal companion but there is a method I use, listed at the bottom, copied from a post I made on this subject. You can then gain a new animal companion. You could also take Leadership and awaken your 2nd animal companion, losing the full loyalty of the first one, but then take the first one as your cohort(if your score can accept it). Then acquire a new animal companion... this will give you 3 awesome bodyguards, 2 of which are awoken animal companions. One as a legitimate Cohort from Leadership, one that is automatically loyal from Awaken and your new animal companion ;)
CR of awoken animal companions
---I used the tables provided in the monster creation section to figure it out. I too wanted to play as my awoken animal which was a Large Tyrannosaurus... It's tough figuring out a CR for an animal companion. Lets say the AC had 5HD, plus 2 from Awaken makes 7, in the Animal row it says 7HD is a CR 5, so use that... unless they have not advanced yet then go one less. Then you would use the rules for playing as a Monstrous PC, where their CR counts as their current level (with racial HD) and you continue leveling from that CR into Heroic Classes. Like with a Minotaur... it has 6 HD but it's a CR 4. You would be considered a 4th level character with 6 racial HD. When you reach level 5 you gain a level in a Heroic class, let's say Barbarian. Minotaur 4/Barbarian 1.
So as another example, 9th level Druid with an animal companion EDL 9 (8HD). Awaken makes 10HD, Monster Creation says Animal HD10 as an average is CR7. So using said awoken animal as a PC you start at 7th level Awoken Animal(10 racial HD), with the minimal amount of Exp to be a 7th level character, and you play from there.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tzm1?Awakened-Animals-CR-Ajustments#14
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A high AC is possible for druids, and even relatively easy if you are willing to invest in it. You can buy armor for your wildshapes. You can buy wild armor. You can cast a number of buffs that last most of an adventuring day to increase AC. See the post directly above the one I am quoting for more details.Ok going down the list.
#1 is AC. There are some alternatives but Druid just has really bad rules in this regard. Normally I would go through different tiers of armor starting at whatever I can afford until I get to Celestial Armor.
#2 Buffs. looking for potent but specialized like Shield, scaling ones like Divine Favor, or all rounders like Heroism. Vine strike is great for natural attack damage but no hit boosts or what about buffs to normal form?
Bonuses to hit druids get include groundswell/air walk (+1 for higher ground), Greater Magic Fang, Wildshape (+1 hit for strength druids, more for dex druids, +5-+15 to hit for every attack after your first because your BAB doesn't drop), Animal companion class feature (flank +2 attack, outflank +2 more attack, grab effectively a +2 attack from the penalty inflicted), Aspect of the Wolf (+4 attack after you land the trip), Summon Nature's Ally (flank buddy, grapplers, trippers, poisoners who lower dexterity, etc).
AC buff spells: Wildshape (average of +2 AC when increasing in size, assuming you have wild armor or barding), barkskin (+2-+7), ironskin (+4-+7, doesn't stack with previous), animal companion class feature (+2 effective from grappling, +4 effective from tripping), Ice Armor (+6 armor bonus to AC if you are for some reason in a form you don't have barding for, or +2 AC if you rely on mage armor).
#3 crowd control. Looking for a solid crowd control spell every tier. If I cant attack then at least allow me to lock down every encounter.Have you read through the druid spell list? Because that is what most of the list is, even ignoring summoning as a means of crowd control. They have fog clouds, difficult terrain generators, and Walls. They even have ways to make you/your party immune to some of the control spells you will be laying down.
#4 offense spells. Okay so I cant have Fireball or Disintegrate. Still looking for spells that can actually kill the enemy, like a curse or something.Umm, Wildshape? Summon Nature's Ally? Animal Growth/Atavism on animal companion? Just because it doesn't use an AoE doesn't mean the end result isn't a dead enemy. That said, Snowball, Produce Flame, Flurry of Snowballs, Flaming Sphere, Flame Blade, Gozreh's Trident, Heat/Chill Metal, Call Lightning, Aggressive Thundercloud, Flame Strike, Fire Snake, Firestorm, Storm of Vengeance, Baleful Polymorph and many more. Some of them rely on good spell DC's, some don't.
The ability to full attack twice at the end of a charge through difficult terrain which is literally holding down the enemy ( pounce, mass featherstep, entangle, can be done by round two) isn't powerful synergy? What about turning the ground into broken glass and beating enemies down onto it (obsidian flow+aspect of the wolf)? Or trapping enemies in huge thorn mazes which only inhibit them ( Wall of Thorns+woodland stride)?So Im seeing alot of abilities but the synergy is bad.
AT this point, yep, Im looking for something to sell the Druid as a class as powerful not just alot of separate abilities.
Yeah its probably unrealistic for some classes or have a 50%+ chance to hit or to have a ranged attack that can actually kill while still being strong in melee.
Are these your criteria? Because these can easily be accomplished. Hitting more than 1/2 the time is fairly easy when you only make attacks at full BAB. This has been shown upthread.
As for a ranged attack, snowball can be a pretty lethal third level spell. Intensify spell plus Reach spell lets you do up to 10d6 damage from up to 300 feet away, targeting the notoriously bad touch AC of creatures, not allowing spell resistance, and possibly even staggering foes. Using a rod of intensify and being able to live with close range, and you can do this with a first level spell instead.
#1 druids have better ac options than wizards. Yes you need to cast buffs pre fight. However you should easily have +14 perception by now. Even if you can't you will still have better hp and ac than a wizard with the same prep time. I do admit you have to jump through some hoops for good ac though
#2 your buffs are pretty specialized. Animals only for all your good offensive buffs. You do have a wide variety of very good defensive buffs featuring immunity to pretty much any condition
#3 You have some pretty darn great debuffs and battlefield control. I would argue as good or better than wizard. Entangle series, farie fire, weather control series, chill/heat metal, aqueous orb, dazing call lightning, wall of stone, wall of thorns, baleful polymorph, obsideon flow, stone call, wind wall, sunburst, earthquake, and the ability to spontaneously cast any summon nature ally spell
#4 it takes a very strict build to make blasting good. Druid has literally nothing to support it. If you want to destroy non mook enemies with a single spell this class is not for you
And yes its a full caster not a fighter. Like a warrior style cleric you need to buff yourself a bit before engaging in martial combat. If you want better hit chance pre buffing this class is not for you
I'm a big fan of TreeankMonk's approach. You either play it like a god wizard or you play if like a warrior cleric
I think vine strike is the actual spell.
correctomundo
I think I should continue to stay away from the druid. There are far too many complications with it.
1 Its taken for granted how effective mithril armor is. There are some good suggestions here but looking for no penalty armor with a high dexterity cap isnt possible on the Druid because of its wide reaching armor restrictions. That Snake Scale Armor is pretty good, too bad its medium. Note: I do wonder if you can give it enhancements to be +10 armor?
2 Spells. There is a wide selection but when it comes down to it but Im looking for scaling spells to FIre Snake is okay and Fire Storm is quite good but those dont make the class.
2b Either that or a ranged stun/immobilize/paralyze/control from a distance every tier. For me I would need Entangle tier 2-9 as crowd control. Its a very useful crowd control spell, just situational.
3 WIld Shape can be awesome awesome with the right form. Its the other things that make or break it. If I could avoid making a Glass Hammer and give a ranged option then that would be an all-rounder class.
4 Hmm, scaling is really a major problem as most Druid abilities dont stay useful for long for one reason or another. Damage spells are the most obviosu as anything that doesnt gain a +d6 every level is poor. Wild shapes range is usefulness basically just based on how many attacks or whether you have Pounce.
Oh man I miss the wow druid. That was a good Jack of All Trades class.
I dont think a Jack of all Trades is possible in the pathfinder system as things are more Yes/No. Can you raise someone from the Dead and restore their stats, gear and experience? If yes then youre a healer.
So making a melee character capable of slinging powerful magic attacks isnt possible unless your class is explicitly designed for it. Arcane SPells are the only type hat has reliable damage and some nice buffs. Cleric Divine Spells are the ones with physical combat, buffs and heal/restoration/resurrection.
A Mystic Theurge is probably the closest thing to a magical version.
Druid spells just arent the right spells for buffing or damage.
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I think I should continue to stay away from the druid. There are far too many complications with it.
What Rubbish Wild Shape into a Diretiger and you're already beating a warrior Cleric. You're making it more complicated than it is.
1 Its taken for granted how effective mithril armor is. There are some good suggestions here but looking for no penalty armor with a high dexterity cap isnt possible on the Druid because of its wide reaching armor restrictions. That Snake Scale Armor is pretty good, too bad its medium. Note: I do wonder if you can give it enhancements to be +10 armor?
So don't make a High Dex character, Taenia above has detailed how to reach 30 AC by level 6 you don't need that much AC at that level you can make less of the investments he made a stop whenever you're happy.
26 is optimal I believe.
2 Spells. There is a wide selection but when it comes down to it but Im looking for scaling spells to FIre Snake is okay and Fire Storm is quite good but those dont make the class.
As others have already said lots of spells on the druid list are amazing and will kill enemies without doing direct damage dice however since you seem unable to get your head around this concept, take Explosion of Rot.
2b Either that or a ranged stun/immobilize/paralyze/control from a distance every tier. For me I would need Entangle tier 2-9 as crowd control. Its a very useful crowd control spell, just situational.
Druids are arguably better at this than wizards if you can't find these spells in their list you're not looking.
Entangle, Stone Call, Thorny Entangle, Wall Spells, Fog cloud spells. Off the top of my head.
3 WIld Shape can be awesome awesome with the right form. Its the other things that make or break it. If I could avoid making a Glass Hammer and give a ranged option then that would be an all-rounder class.
Someone above has already shown you how to make a 30 AC wildshape at level 6 how exactly is that a glass hammer.
Just take barding as everyone in this thread has already told you to.
For ranged take nature spell, now you can cast as a pouncing full attacking Dire tiger in armor, what more do you want?
4 Hmm, scaling is really a major problem as most Druid abilities dont stay useful for long for one reason or another.
patently false statement.
Damage spells are the most obviosu as anything that doesnt gain a +d6 every level is poor.
patently false statement.
Wild shapes range is usefulness basically just based on how many attacks or whether you have Pounce.
Getting 3 attacks on the charge with full bab and full to hit at level 6 is not something to complain about.
Oh man I miss the wow druid. That was a good Jack of All Trades class.
go play Wow then because people in these threads have given you everything you need in pathfinder to make an amazing druid.
WoW druid wasn't exactly a jack of all trades class. You could do it but hoy had to change your talents and equipment. You had to specialize, which means that you have to be worse at some things to be really good at what you did. You couldn't put your talents at healing and just change to bear form and be a tank.
Same here. You cannot make a druid who is the best at healing, blasting, controlling, melee combat and damage avoidance. You might be able to do all that things but not to be the best at everything. You need to make a choice and think which of those you want your druid to excel at and which are not so important and could be left as secondary resources.
Druids are a great, resourceful class. But you cannot be the best at everything because it would be gamebreaking.
Anyway, I'd rather avoid comparing a video game to a tabletop. What works in a video game rarely does on a tabletop and viceversa.
Why are you arguing if ive admitted ive lost? I should really stop trying to explain why I am disappointed. So Ive going to immediately ignore that and explain again.
So yeah I want a velociraptor that shoots fireballs from its mouth and raises the dead with its tears. Because THAT is by definition versatility.
Divine Favor is the "basic" buff for me. Its affects all your attacks buffing hit chance and damage. It has a cap on how much it buffs but its still pretty nice that scales with any fighting style. I could use a SLing and that would still be useful.
Fireball is the "basic" attack spell for me. You only have a few slots per tier so attacks have to pretty much be broken through high efficiency. I dont even know how a "Blaster" character would work without having an attack spell almost every tier.
Scaling is probably the single greatest focus. Im looking at things from a level 1-20 perspective. So things that keep improving in effect and area are important to use the few slots per tier.
SO just ignore me because I now know looking for a Cleric/Wizard mashup.
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I think you are right about giving up. Not because there is anything wrong with the druid class, but rather your unwillingness to adapt your play style to the class. Every class has different tactics that work best with it. If you ignore those and use the tactics of another class the results are always disappointing. If you played a wizard like a cleric trying to buff up your combat ability and wade in to the battle your results are going to be equally bad. The wizard simply does not have the combat ability to make this work.
What everyone needs to keep in mind is that not all classes work for everyone. The druid does require more thought and planning then a lot of other classes. They have a lot of options that in the right circumstances are absolutely incredible, but if used wrong are next to useless. Many people are overwhelmed with the options or don’t know the class well enough to get the most out of it. Clerics and wizards are actually a lot easier for most people to play. If you are not having fun with the class then it is not the right class for you.
Why are you arguing if ive admitted ive lost? I should really stop trying to explain why I am disappointed. So Ive going to immediately ignore that and explain again.
people argue with you because you consistently give up on the class not your line of argument.
So yeah I want a velociraptor that shoots fireballs from its mouth and raises the dead with its tears. Because THAT is by definition versatility.Divine Favor is the "basic" buff for me. Its affects all your attacks buffing hit chance and damage. It has a cap on how much it buffs but its still pretty nice that scales with any fighting style. I could use a SLing and that would still be useful.
Druids have a specific fighting style, its natural attack focused and they have a buff for it, Wild Shape, Wild Shape buffs said fighting style much more significantly than Divine favor does.
Fireball is the "basic" attack spell for me. You only have a few slots per tier so attacks have to pretty much be broken through high efficiency. I dont even know how a "Blaster" character would work without having an attack spell almost every tier.
Blast spells scale by factors of 5 damage dice you get a new level of spell every two levels, as such you only need a new blast every 3 levels of spells.
Also Explosion of Rot is better than fireball for everything aside from clearing mooks.
Scaling is probably the single greatest focus. Im looking at things from a level 1-20 perspective. So things that keep improving in effect and area are important to use the few slots per tier.
Wild shape and 9th level casting are your scaling class features.
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Coming late to this but the druid is a very powerful and versatile class. One can build a very, very good Jack of Many Trades character OR one can build a very good semi-specialized character.
In PFS one can make a very versatile character, ready to fill whatever role the table needs. I've played a versatile druid through to level 17 and it was very, very successful. In the majority of games I was deliberately holding back so as to not overshadow the game. She was never the best possible summoner, healer, damage dealer, tank, controller, etc but she could fill ALL of those roles "well enough".
In a home game with a known group one probably should specialize. My Goliath druid in the Dragon Slayer campaign is a lancing charging druid with a nigh unhittable armour class sitting on his huge Megafauna rhinoceros. Doesn't do quite as much damage as the ranger or melee alchemist but does way more than enough when combined with his amazing control spells (Wall of Thorns is Crazy Good), buff spells (Hunter's Blessing is crazy good). He even has enough skill points to spare so that he is actually the party face :-).
Edit: The druid definitely alters its play style at different levels. The Animal Companion is a far greater portion of the Druids power at low to mid levels but it is still useful at higher levels. Summons of normal monsters becomes less effective as damage dea;ers in general but flooding the board with speed bumps can work well. The Druid has awesome control spells at all levels, at higher levels the "tends to work only outside" rider tends to go away.
It plays differently than a Mystic Theurge but it is at least as powerful until the very high levels (NOTHING is as powerful as a level 20 Mystic Theurge. If that is your standard then you're right, NOTHING compares.)
We are in disagreement over what versatile means. "able to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities."
So lacking in areas spells or being specialized in a certain melee style is not.
The Druid is a specialist like nearly every class. Its defined by its spells and class features. So it isnt what I was hoping for.
1 Wild Shape is very powerful for melee. Its not workable for ranged and its useless in Improving your base form.
2 Animal Companion is like having your own min-maxed warrior ready to smash/slash/stab things in melee.
3 Spells You have some healing spells, buffs, and attacks. Not really the Cure-all or Artillery kind of spells though.
So I dont think versatility is actually possible in the official game rules. You can share more than one specialization, but not be versatile. You would have to have a combination of several things to basically be a one-person-party.
Godzilla is versatile. Atomic Beam, super strength, super resilience, healing factor, popularity power, ability to fly with atomic breath. Hmm can he summon minions or teleport?
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SO just ignore me because I now know looking for a Cleric/Wizard mashup.
Mystic theurge if that is what you are looking at people will tell you the over whelming consensus is that is is very week.
The best build I have seen for casting of other lists is human, half orc or half elf shaman with the lore wandering spirit. The wizard+cleric+shaman gives extensive spell coverage. The armor is good The weapons are bad. And you don't lose any spell levels for shaman or wizard spells.
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1) Not true. Tiny forms that fly have crazy ac and better reflex save. They are great for positioning and range.
You are correct about the extent of versatility you want. Druids don't have it. I don't know of any build that blast like a wizard, heal like a Cleric and fight in melee.
If I were you I would try 1 level medium x shaman. Take legendary influence. Now you can do whatever you want everyday.
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Why are you arguing if ive admitted ive lost? I should really stop trying to explain why I am disappointed. So Ive going to immediately ignore that and explain again.
So yeah I want a velociraptor that shoots fireballs from its mouth and raises the dead with its tears. Because THAT is by definition versatility.
Your goalposts for versatility comes out as "I want to be the entire party in one class, melee, ranged, magic, healer, sneak. I want to be as good in each role as the specialist classes are in theirs."
This game hasn't rolled that way since the days of Chainmail.
Druid is completely lacking in some areas. It cant use Restoration/Greater Restoration despite being a Divine caster. Its buffing spells are quite specialized for the Druid or maybe its animal companion.
In comparison a Cleric and Wizard are more generally useful spells. That is NOT to say they are perfect.
Cleric has Divine Favor/Power, Channel Vigor, Blessing of Fervor, Restoration/Greater, raise dead, Resurrection, Miracle and so on. So you buff, heal, restore, and resurrect.
I would rather have that spell list than the Druid's. At least then I could be a Doctor Raptor MD.
Earlier int his thread I asked about ranged attacks someone said "pounce from a distance". Funny but completely missing the point. No I cannot strap a rocket launcher to a druid brick to turn it into a main battle tank. So I am disappointed there. The lack of versatility with the class is pretty big.
I would create character classes in entirely different way so they gradually unlock different areas like powerful ranged attacks on a melee character.
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I'm going to guess, just a shot in the dark really, that this topic ends with ChaosTicket saying Druids are worthless as-is, and should be Full-BAB with 8 + Int ranks per level and 3.5e Wildshape.
A little off target (I erred towards Fighter/Rogue Druid, he went Wizard/Cleric Druid), but I still feel vindicated.
Eh we consider balance differently. To some people have 30+ classes and 100+ sub-archetypes is a good thing.
Id rather see warrior/magic/skills and lean them into different areas to make something like an Inquisitor or Magus.
Dont need to see a dozen different classes all hitting things in melee.