Druids: Jack of All Trades?


Advice

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I think any discussion involving "jack of all trades" should start with the OPs definition of that term. I'd call your definition "ace of all trades", since it seems to require the best two or three options from each category.

The Druid has blasting spells. They have both good AoE spells and d6-per-level spells, but not combined. Jack.

The Druid can raise people from the dead, cure ability damage, and heal regular damage, but they can't remove negative levels. That's probably above a jack.

The Druid is a great melee combatant, with lots of buffs suited to their fighting style. They have built-in access to flying combat options, so that they can confront flying enemies directly. At lower levels, they can have an animal companion cover their weaknesses. That's probably above a jack, at least if one is willing to consider that Druid spells are very nasty at long range, and an acceptable substitute for investing in a bunch of ranged feats. If not, jack.

The Druid has protective buffs and can shift into defensive forms for safer casting. At 11th level, they get a spell that allows them access to other armors, with regular ACP. Jack.

I recommend gestalt games. What you want would be broken in normal play (you explicitly want to replace the entire party), but is more normal when everybody gets to pick two classes every level.

Alternatively, you could take Leadership to get a Wizard cohort with Fireball, additional buffs, and access to Cleric spells through an archetype. That will cover the rare negative level removal, patch up any buff gaps for your Druid, and dish out AoE damage. (Feats should make up the lower Fireball damage, and there's an archetype that grants Cleric spell access and the ability to boost CL well above even the Druid.) Take a trait on your Druid for proficiency with a broadsword, and check with the GM about treating darkwood and the Ironwood spell together as Druid-friendly mithral.


So this isnt about what I want, but what other people keep saying. Im tired of people trolling me when I ask how to have strong abilities in a few categories a class is SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD AT and then tohers saying I want to be the best AT EVERYTHING any class can every be.

I am tried of people arguing what common definitions are. Im just tired of asking for actual help and then being harassed every time.

ChessPwn is #1 troll for my threads. He/she started it again.

Geeze Look how this started out. I was asking things like what are the best buffs & crowd control abilities on the druids spell list.

Okay, Ill try to calm down. Im not going to find what I want but Ill TRY to keep an open mind and just ask how other people play. What is the Druid supposed to play like? What is the best Druid build?

Im gonna go rest. I feel sick.


andreww wrote:
I often find myself wondering why people reply to Chaosticket threads. They always go in exactly the same way.

It's an interesting design challenge, fitting a class into all roles. Just because the answer is rejected doesn't invalidate it. I'm here because I recently poked around with a longsword-wielding Druid with a crow swarm and enchantment spells. I ignore blasting, so he was a jack of all trades for me.


ChaosTicket wrote:
andreww wrote:
I often find myself wondering why people reply to Chaosticket threads. They always go in exactly the same way.

Yes, that I d not fit into a tyepcast role..unless Im controlling the entire team like all those D&D PC games.

I do very well in tactical RPGs because I can micromanage things.

If you were to get what you wanted, you would probably have a hard time finding a group who enjoyed playing as part of that party. That's why I would recommend gestalt games- it lets everyone fill all roles (or, at the very least, two roles).

I could be wrong about that, though.


Max Stealth > You're better than anyone at stealth-ing with Wildshape

High DC? > proceed to max WIS and use Wildshape as a way to protect yourself in combat. Darkvision for free, Scent, Fly, Earth Glide.
You're no longer fit for melee combat, like any Wizard, Sorcerer. Use Wildshape for its defensives abilities, trade AC for Domain spells, now you have a bigger list of Spells to cast.

Melee Combat > Focus on STR/CON, you could focus on DEX instead with Agile if you wanted. Free Pounce, Grab, Trip. Tons of buffs to cast on yourself. AC can be used to get even higher bonuses to hit. AC can be built with Bodyguard+harrying Partner for permanent +2/+3 to AC as Aid Another action. As long as AC threatens you still get +4 to hit with Outflank.

Arcane Spell > UMD is always there. Traits make it class skill. Humans get 5 Skill points. Mage Armor, Shield and many others.

I don't exactly know what people mean by versatility. No class can do everything. A Wizard might be able to Conjure stuff up but he can't melee. He can't heal.
The only downside of Druids is Natural Weapons because enhancing them can be harder, but there's probably some items going around to work around that.

Also > preferred forms. Once you decide you just turn into that and get armor like any other fighter. Yes, it will slow you down, that's the trade.

Grand Lodge

andreww wrote:
Grandlounge wrote:
I don't know of any build that blast like a wizard, heal like a Cleric and fight in melee.
Oracles can manage the first two with no problems whatsoever, they can do the third with some buff time.

Oracle and shamans can do this, I think. The builds seem tough. Stats get stretched thin, you have to make comprises with spirits/mysteries, oracles have a limited number of spells they can know. I will say stretching this many unique roles is more than I have tried myself.

I inclination is to give the edge to shaman, though I'm sure I could be persuaded otherwise. Prepared caster so you don't have to have the healing spells all the time. Wisdom a more valuable casting stat. Hexes give you a third option to spend your turn on.

Though oracles can caste their mystery spells as much as they want. Shamans need the water and flames spirit to do the same. Oracles have better melee buffs so physical stats are less important. Though divine power equals them out at higher levels.

Both builds suffer from lack of different elements no static damage increases like sorcerers or wizards dipping sorcerer.

Thanks for indulging my musings. It seems like a lot to squeeze out of one build. The above is really just me trying to think through how to get 3 distinct rolls out of the build.


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ChaosTicket wrote:

So this isnt about what I want, but what other people keep saying. Im tired of people trolling me when I ask how to have strong abilities in a few categories a class is SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD AT and then tohers saying I want to be the best AT EVERYTHING any class can every be.

I am tried of people arguing what common definitions are. Im just tired of asking for actual help and then being harassed every time.

ChessPwn is #1 troll for my threads. He/she started it again.

Geeze Look how this started out. I was asking things like what are the best buffs & crowd control abilities on the druids spell list.

Okay, I'll try to calm down. Im not going to find what I want but Ill TRY to keep an open mind and just ask how other people play. What is the Druid supposed to play like? What is the best Druid build?

I'm gonna go rest. I feel sick.

Dude, I haven't even posted in this thread until now, how in the world could I have "started it again" in this thread? and for future reference I am a he.

IF you want useful answers you need to ask better questions.
List mechanically WHAT you want. AKA, I want to hit AC 25 by lv5 on druid. DON'T just say, "druid's AC sucks". This in one of your biggest problems and causes BOTH the issues you complain about. 1) If you aren't clear on what mechanically you want but say feel statements then there is going to be a lot of posts that are "derailing and off-topic" because your question isn't clear. and 2 you posting feel statements. Like "I feel the Druid's AC is bad and has no buffs or attack spells. WHERE IS THE HEROISM/DIVINE FAVOR/..." this leads to people seeing you wanting the SUPERMAN character that HAS IT ALL. SO IF YOU'RE CONTENT TO NOT PLAY SUPERMAN THEN CONTINUE ASKING QUESTIONS AND READING POSTS. IF YOU WANT SUPERMAN THEN THIS SYSTEM ISN'T FOR YOU AS YOU CAN'T MAKE SUPERMAN WITHIN THE RULES.

So assuming you understand you're not making superman you need to figure out WHAT you want your character to do/have, IN DISCREET MECHANICAL TERMS. AND THEN BE WILLING TO ADJUST THAT IF THE ANSWER IS IT'S NOT POSSIBLE.

Druid, like many classes, does different things. You either focus on melee combat and work with low DC spell, or you focus on spells and don't do melee combat, as rules, stats and actions per round don't support someone that is great at both.

Melee combat uses 2 routes, the normal route for druid using natural attacks, or the special version using weapons with the Goliath Druid.

The druid's combat buff aka divine favor is it's wildshape. It has scaling attack bonuses and damage bonuses through the str bonus you're getting. Also it scales by how many attacks you can make, a natural attack build that the druid is perfect for, is using natural attacks, so all of their attacks are at FULL bab, this means you're getting MORE attacks off and at MORE accuracy than any other 3/4th bab class. The giant octopus with I think 10 attacks has 10 attacks. That is going from 2 to 10, with a large str bonus and it lasts HOURS. Haste wishes it could be granting that many extra attacks ALL AT FULL BAB. It's also this combat class that can get POUNCE as soon as lv4. So while the barb or fighter need to move and make 1 attack, you can move and make 5 attacks I think, maybe only 3, but still WAY more than a barb, or even a barb with HASTE.

Your big combat buff spell is barkskin. It gives much better AC than an amulet does for MANY levels, and it saves you gold/opens up the neck slot. The Amulet of Mighty fists isn't needed since you have greater magic fang.

If you want more blasty spells you can get them by going fire domain instead of getting an AC to get fireball.


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ChaosTicket, do you actually like playing Pathfinder? All I see are posts complaining about why you can't do Thing X. Is there a class you actually enjoy playing?

Pathfinder isn't a game where one character should be able to do everything. Nearly all classes have a built-in weakness. Druids have crappy range attacks, but you can wildshape into something with reach. You can't fart out Disintegrate beams, but Flame Strike comes close. You can't buff yourself up the wazoo, but Wildshape gives you nearly everything you'd ever want. Meanwhile, an Archer Fighter is great at ranged attacks, but sucks at nearly everything else. And a Bard is a social wunderkind, but can't hit a damn in melee (typical support-Bards, that is).

Point is, you can only be good at so many things. Focus on one or two and rely on your party for the rest. I've seen you compare this game to Skyrim. Spoilers: it isn't. The fact that you travel with 3-4 other people means you can specialise in one or two areas and have other people pick up some of the slack. If there's an enemy at long range harassing you, the Wizard will probably take care of it. The Bard will take care of all social issues. Your job is to lay down some crowd control and hit things really hard. Trust me, I've seen Druids in action that are on par with Barbarians in damage output.


QuidEst wrote:
andreww wrote:
I often find myself wondering why people reply to Chaosticket threads. They always go in exactly the same way.
It's an interesting design challenge, fitting a class into all roles. Just because the answer is rejected doesn't invalidate it. I'm here because I recently poked around with a longsword-wielding Druid with a crow swarm and enchantment spells. I ignore blasting, so he was a jack of all trades for me.

There is no one "right way" to play a Druid. My spouse was infamous for playing a flame druid that left not a tavern, nor a few opera houses standing by the time he left a town. Not the greatest in melee, but he contributed when he had to.

He was also pretty effective AGAINST fire as well with spells such as fire quench.

That's the beauty of druids as prepared casters, unlike oracles and sorcerers, you can change your spell role every day.


KINDA EDIT:
So talking about magic. There are really 4 schools of magic. Arcane, divine, psychic, AND NATURE.
Yes nature is mechanically lumped under divine, but when you think divine you think cleric, and that is not at all what the druid's or ranger's list is like. So you have to remember, that the druid is a NATURE magic user, not divine, and base your expectations off of that aspect and not compare it to a divine list.


I'd think most folks would consider "can be good at a lot of different things, but in order to be top class in anything they need to devote limited and precious resources to that thing so they can't be the best at everything" to be a sign of good class design.

I mean, the minute Paizo designs a class that can be made to be great at everything at once, is a minute before I ban that class from games I'm running.

I'm honestly kind of curious how the "I want to be the best at DPR, both ranged and melee, offensive spellcasting, buffing, and healing" attitude plays with the actual humans that ChaosTicket plays the game with, since it seems like "I'm filling this niche for the party, other people have other places to shine" has been baked into D&D since its inception. Honestly, there are very, very few games that let you be the best at everything at once, and Pathfinder is assuredly not one of them.

I always figured the way you picked a class is that you came up with an idea for a character, then figured out what class best models your vision of the character and what they're good at. If you're picking a class in order to acquire the maximal set of "things you are the best at" that sort of seems like the wrong way to go about it.

Grand Lodge

ChaosTicket wrote:

... Ill TRY to keep an open mind and just ask how other people play. What is the Druid supposed to play like? What is the best Druid build?

Im gonna go rest. I feel sick.

I have seen 2 monk druids.

Tetori Druid grapple and that can grapple anything. AC was tough for the character but it was really strong.

I have a 1 UnMonk x Druid with decent AC + snake style, great HP, 19 starting casting stat and an initial 16 strength. Ref is pretty weak but he has tools to deal with most situation. His skill are bad. He is amazing at perception, sense motive and ok at a few class skills. This is OK for me because the character is nearly mute.

Other druids I have played with include:

Dual talented human druids with the Goliath archetype. They can be quite strong. Armour, weapons, spells good stats. 17 starting str, 18 wis dump chr to 7. Much more efficient with wealth then standard wild shape druids.

Wild shape druid high STR and 14 Wis pounce on stuff. Take planar wild shape for defense. One feat DR that scales, SR (weak but scales), Energy resistance and smite. ONE FEAT!

Caster Druid. Smallest most dexterous wild shape. Has crazy AC. Either an animal companion to buff and help control/damage or a blast or control type Domain. Maybe the best at skill in the group due to being more SAD.

Nature Fang Druid. I know there are good builds out there I have not seen them in play yet.


I view Druid as the full caster with toys.

They have a very narrow casting specialization. They are the best with nature, fey, and arguably crowd control. (If I want to stop an army, Druid is the caster I would use.) Those are pretty weak things to be the best caster at. That said, they are better at healing than arcane (but worse than other divine), better at offensive spells than divine (but worse than arcane), and better at influencing the physical world than psychic (but worse than arcane).

In exchange, they are the best shapeshifter, they are the only class good at casting while shifted, and they get an animal companion. They are the best full caster in melee, and are probably close to Witch when it comes to a long adventuring day.

If you can make a full casting arcane caster who is better at melee and healing than Druid, or a full casting divine caster better at crowd control, blasting, and melee, then those will be better for you. If not, it's either a matter of picking your favorite balance, finding a GM/group that will tweak things, or deciding that Pathfinder won't support your particular character design goal.


QuidEst wrote:


In exchange, they are the best shapeshifter, they are the only class good at casting while shifted,

Generally true, but the Psychic bloodline Sorcerer is an important exception.


Well there you go. Im not wanting to be the best at everything, but the best I can make THAT CLASS.

Druid has that harder than some other classes. Just going into the comments here each one is some specialization like pick a melee build. Maybe Golaith Archetype if you want to have your normal form equipment be compatible. Or pick a STorm Druid if you can to specialize in casting/ranged attacks.

Multiple stats are needed. Max out your strength for melee, constitution for durability, dexterity for AC, initiative and skills for small forms, Wisdom for spells.

The decision to focus on Strength or Wisdom is just one to start out with. I create a character with the aim of having a base spell stat (including the level up stat growths) to be capable of being used Without having magical stat boosting Headbands are crutch..

So making the best Druid just isnt possible. Its like trying to make for Chuck Norris. For me the very least I wanted was to make a balanced create capable of being a "musketeer" with melee and ranged attacks because that is what I imagined the Druid to be like.

Additional criteria were actually added by you people.Just plain armor has to be#1 Druid compatible, #2 works in all forms, #3 doesnt penalize you, #4 works with Dexterity Belts.

Silver Crusade

Druids are, by any usual definition, a very versatile class. Both in terms that a druid can be built to be a specialist in a great many areas AND in the sense that an individual druid can be a quite versatile character.

To use ChaosTickets own definition

ChaosTicket wrote:
"able to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities."

a druid most certainly qualifies. My PFS Druid was, in different circumstances, a blaster, controller, healer, tank, damage dealer, scout, comic relief, etc etc.

She was somewhere between barely adequate and nearly as good as a well built specialist in those roles, generally tending towards a level of "significantly below a well optimized specialized but quite capable of fulfilling the role better than an unoptimized specialist (eg, better than the pregens in their roles).

But I strongly suspect that the real problem is that ChaosTicket wants

ChaosTicket wrote:


Godzilla is versatile. Atomic Beam, super strength, super resilience, healing factor, popularity power, ability to fly with atomic breath. Hmm can he summon minions or teleport?

If your goal is for your character to be as powerful as Godzilla then I hope that you can NEVER build it in Pathfinder.

Although I'd argue that a druid comes closer than most to that goal. It DOES get summons, teleport, ability to fly, super strength, super reslience and healing factor. Its popularity power only applies to animals. It definitely does NOT have an atomic beam although some of its spells may be arguably close (Earthquake, Firestorm)


Godzilla was a joke. Its was a statement on how you and other people imply I am making characters.

Superman is also on my list of flanderized examples.


ChaosTicket wrote:


1 Equipment is a big problem as Im in regular form the majority of the time. Best I can use is a Dragonhide Breastplate. Mithril would improvre that but it cant be used. Weapons, well Ive got a scimitar.

Then don't be in regular form.

Quote:
2 I dont know how in WIld Shape to have a High AC score as you lose your armor and you need Amulet of Mighty Fists to give your natural weapons the equivalent of weapon enhancements. AMmulet of natural Armor is very useful but you cant use multiple magic items in the same slot.

1) the vastly overpriced wild enchant (simple option)

2) Mage armor + your own barkskin is good for +6 + your forms natural ac + your dex

3) best option, pick your favorite combat form. Buy barding for it. Have the party dress you in it.

4) get a druids vestment. You should now have enough wildshapes to never leave form again.

3 I cant find any buff spells comparable to Clerics' Divine Favor/Power or Wizards Heroism or Haste. I dont think there is anything close in offense spells to Fireball. Best I could think is to become a summoner specialist using up feats for it.

It's wildshape. Pounce is absolutely un believable for what it does to your damage.

Quote:
4 animal companions are very useful early on and get stronger at level 4/7. Long term they suffer as they dont have any class abilities, magic, ways to get extra attacks, low HP and so on.

Most of them have 5 attacks and good cons. They can spare a feat for toughness. They can wear mw studded leather barding for low cost no penalty armor (or mithral chain or mithral kikko if you want to go nuts)

Its for PFS but 99% of it is applicable anywhere

Quote:

Right now I am underperforming as my Animal is doing alot more than my PC.

What stats does your druid have?

This can be a very viable tactic. My level 13 pfs druid sits on his pet velociraptors head in bat form and casts buff spells on the raptor, who goes to shredtown.


ChaosTicket wrote:

Well there you go. Im not wanting to be the best at everything, but the best I can make THAT CLASS.

Druid has that harder than some other classes. Just going into the comments here each one is some specialization like pick a melee build. Maybe Golaith Archetype if you want to have your normal form equipment be compatible. Or pick a STorm Druid if you can to specialize in casting/ranged attacks.

Multiple stats are needed. Max out your strength for melee, constitution for durability, dexterity for AC, initiative and skills for small forms, Wisdom for spells.

The decision to focus on Strength or Wisdom is just one to start out with. I create a character with the aim of having a base spell stat (including the level up stat growths) to be capable of being used Without having magical stat boosting Headbands are crutch..

So making the best Druid just isnt possible. Its like trying to make for Chuck Norris. For me the very least I wanted was to make a balanced create capable of being a "musketeer" with melee and ranged attacks because that is what I imagined the Druid to be like.

Additional criteria were actually added by you people.Just plain armor has to be#1 Druid compatible, #2 works in all forms, #3 doesnt penalize you, #4 works with Dexterity Belts.

Here, lets help you actually ask better questions. there are three items I wish to address.

You answer these and help us get on the same page and maybe you'll start to get "useful advice"

1)
a) Why is relying on a headband so bad?
b) why are headbands a crutch but belts for AC aren't a crutch?

2)
a) Why do you need this armor that has all these specifications and not just armor for your main combat form?
b) You might be throwing out game terms, BUT you're not explaining what you're wanting with mechanics. like "doesn't penalize you" and "works with Dexterity Belts". Because I can give you an answer that meets this criteria, BUT you easily might say it's off-topic or whatever because even though it meets everything you said, you have a lot that isn't said.
1)bracers of armor
2)wild darkleaf leather.
Now, if you dislike either of these it's because you didn't ask the right question, NOT because we're giving bad advice.

3)"being a "musketeer" with melee and ranged attacks"
a)"musketeer" doesn't mean anything in this game, and the closest thing I got when you said that was a gunslinger using a musket. Since that's probably NOT what you meant this is an example of you using "feel" words and not conveying what you actually want "technically".

b)This to me doesn't sound like a druid, NOR does it sound like something you're likely to accomplish with the druid class. The druid is all about wildshape or figuring out how to leverage their spell list.

c) it seems like you might be better off explaining what you're wanting to accomplish and then we can find a class that fits those. And to do such you'll need to mechanically explain WHAT "melee attacks" means and WHAT "ranged attacks" means. Because All classes can make melee and ranged attacks.


ChaosTicket wrote:
Well there you go. Im not wanting to be the best at everything, but the best I can make THAT CLASS.

Ah, right. Still, being the best in that class doesn't mean covering all the bases. Druids are great melee fighters, and can be awesome at crowd control, maybe both at the same time, but you'll have to sacrifice in other areas. I hope we've made that clear by now.

ChaosTicket wrote:

Druid has that harder than some other classes. Just going into the comments here each one is some specialization like pick a melee build. Maybe Golaith Archetype if you want to have your normal form equipment be compatible. Or pick a STorm Druid if you can to specialize in casting/ranged attacks.

Multiple stats are needed. Max out your strength for melee, constitution for durability, dexterity for AC, initiative and skills for small forms, Wisdom for spells.

STR is obvious. CON doesn't need to be as high as possible. All my characters have a CON of 14, and it works fine for both frontliners and back-row supporters. DEX is nice to have, but at some point you're fighting an uphill battle. Enemy monster's to-hit bonuses will outstrip your ways of boosting AC. To be fair, this would be one of the first things to lower if my point-buy doesn't go the way I want it.

ChaosTicket wrote:
So making the best Druid just isnt possible. Its like trying to make for Chuck Norris. For me the very least I wanted was to make a balanced create capable of being a "musketeer" with melee and ranged attacks because that is what I imagined the Druid to be like.

That totally depends on your criteria. "The best" can be interepreted in many different ways. Since you specified melee and ranged attacks, that's pretty easy. Druids get pretty crappy weapon proficiencies, and barely any ranged options. So either work with increasing your reach through Wildshape, or pick up weapon proficiencies through feats or racial options. Though really, at higher levels you pretty much want to be wildshaped 24/7, so that bow won't do you much good. And a Druid will never be as good at it as a Fighter because it's so feat-intensive, and you've got your Druid feats to worry about. The simplest solution is to just bring a few shortspears with you you can chuck at enemies if they're out of melee range.

ChaosTicket wrote:
Additional criteria were actually added by you people.Just plain armor has to be#1 Druid compatible, #2 works in all forms, #3 doesnt penalize you, #4 works with Dexterity Belts.

It's a bit expensive, but you can make Dragonhide equivalents of pretty much everything. The rest is pretty much impossible, I think. That's the inherent downside of armour. You're trying to circumvent a design principle you shouldn't be circumventing. In the end, a lot of armour is designed to equal out AC. In all three categories of armour, the highest combination of DEX mod and armour AC is 8 for light armour, 9 for medium, 10 for heavy. And that higher AC comes with pricier armour. There's Mithral that can bump it up by 2 more, but that's inherently inaccessible to Druids. So you just have to suck it up and deal with a slightly less-than-optimal AC. You still have Barkskin to make up for it. Besides, if all of your party members are decently optimised, the fight will be over before you take too many hits anyways.


ChaosTicket wrote:

Godzilla was a joke. Its was a statement on how you and other people imply I am making characters.

Superman is also on my list of flanderized examples.

We think that's what you're asking because that's what it SOUNDS like you're asking. If this isn't what you're meaning to say you need to look and figure out how to say what you want better.

Silver Crusade

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ChaosTicket wrote:

Godzilla was a joke. Its was a statement on how you and other people imply I am making characters.

Superman is also on my list of flanderized examples.

You seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder and assume that we're all out to get you or something. As far as I recall I have no prior history with you and my posts on this thread are actually intended ot be helpful. YOU raised the example of Godzilla and are upset because I didn't get that you intended it as a joke?

You gave a definition of what you saw as versatile. I replied that a druid MEETS your definition of versatile and showed why.

At this point I honestly do not know what you want. You asked whether a druid could be versatile. The answer is that yes it can. By YOUR definition of versatile. Even if that definition means emulating Godzilla :-).

Grand Lodge

ChaosTicket wrote:

Well there you go. Im not wanting to be the best at everything, but the best I can make THAT CLASS.

Druid has that harder than some other classes. Just going into the comments here each one is some specialization like pick a melee build. Maybe Golaith Archetype if you want to have your normal form equipment be compatible. Or pick a STorm Druid if you can to specialize in casting/ranged attacks.

Multiple stats are needed. Max out your strength for melee, constitution for durability, dexterity for AC, initiative and skills for small forms, Wisdom for spells.

The decision to focus on Strength or Wisdom is just one to start out with. I create a character with the aim of having a base spell stat (including the level up stat growths) to be capable of being used Without having magical stat boosting Headbands are crutch..

So making the best Druid just isn't possible. Its like trying to make for Chuck Norris. For me the very least I wanted was to make a balanced create capable of being a "musketeer" with melee and ranged attacks because that is what I imagined the Druid to be like.

Additional criteria were actually added by you people. Just plain armor has to be#1 Druid compatible, #2 works in all forms, #3 doesnt penalize you, #4 works with Dexterity Belts.

I actually described builds that that have the stats to cast and preform in melee. It is possible to start with 16+ strength, 18 wisdom and 14 con. You can't be as good at multiple things as person dedicated to one but you will do fine. The limiting factor is wealth people that just cast can skip buying a weapon and buy rods. If you need both its going to be harder.

Equipment and feats are the most limiting factors when it comes to filling multiple roles. Especially when you want combat and blasting because blasting in the most feat intensive casting strategy.

If you broaden slightly. I want to be able to do damage reliably and cast spells that will stick. That is a much more reasonable goal. You will still stretch resources but you can do it.


ChaosTicket wrote:
Well there you go. Im not wanting to be the best at everything, but the best I can make THAT CLASS.

It seems, sometimes, that you want the class to be the best at everything it can do well, which is more or less what the game intends to prevent in order to force you to make choices; feats are not unlimited, say.

Even the fighter, whose portfolio is fairly limited, cannot be the best at archery, throwing, twf, reach battlefield control, combat maneuvers, and have the best armor class; a 10th level human fighter has only 12 feats to work with.

It seems like a more reasonable strategy is to try to make an instance of a class who is among the best at the thing that class does well that is most useful, given the constraints of the party and the campaign, while not being absolutely hopeless at everything else.


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ChaosTicket wrote:

Eh we consider balance differently. To some people have 30+ classes and 100+ sub-archetypes is a good thing.

Id rather see warrior/magic/skills and lean them into different areas to make something like an Inquisitor or Magus.

Dont need to see a dozen different classes all hitting things in melee.

What you seem to want is to reduce the game down to three specific classes that cover mega roles.

Others want more variety.

Sounds like a better home for you would be GURPS.

Scarab Sages

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
ChaosTicket wrote:

Eh we consider balance differently. To some people have 30+ classes and 100+ sub-archetypes is a good thing.

Id rather see warrior/magic/skills and lean them into different areas to make something like an Inquisitor or Magus.

Dont need to see a dozen different classes all hitting things in melee.

What you seem to want is to reduce the game down to three specific classes that cover mega roles.

Others want more variety.

Sounds like a better home for you would be GURPS.

Eh, classes are part of gurps dungeon fantasy. Gurps just offers more realistic combat and a skill based system for everything instead of class levels.

That said, I'm doing the pre-work to convert the curse of the crimson throne hardback to Gurps dungeon fantasy.


Imbicatus wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
ChaosTicket wrote:

Eh we consider balance differently. To some people have 30+ classes and 100+ sub-archetypes is a good thing.

Id rather see warrior/magic/skills and lean them into different areas to make something like an Inquisitor or Magus.

Dont need to see a dozen different classes all hitting things in melee.

What you seem to want is to reduce the game down to three specific classes that cover mega roles.

Others want more variety.

Sounds like a better home for you would be GURPS.

Eh, classes are part of gurps dungeon fantasy. Gurps just offers more realistic combat and a skill based system for everything instead of class levels.

That said, I'm doing the pre-work to convert the curse of the crimson throne hardback to Gurps dungeon fantasy.

Last time I looked, classes in GURPS fantasy were just short cuts in using the base point-based system. You can do GURPS Fantasy just fine without them. It's just a bit more work.


@ChaosTicket
Snakescale Armor is considered light armor ;)

...Godzilla? I'm pretty sure it's MOGARU! lol


Again, what do you think versatility means? Please show me your dictionary definition.

Im trying to see if a Druid is adaptable to any situation.

The most flanderized form them yeah it means a person who has:

1 melee combat
2 ranged combat, either with a weapon or spells
3 good with or without class features
4 spells
5 skills, havent brought it up yet because 4+ skills is fine.

So its ends up a general purpose character. It doesnt mean a 95% chance to succeed at everything.

I dont know. Maybe you think a 25% chance to succeed at something is too high.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

So AC 25 at level 5, good melee, tanking, blasting hmm.

Hmm Wealth by level is 10500 at level 5, going to go with 20 pt buy

Lets try this Aasimar, Plumekith Menhir Savant Druid with Fire Domain 20

S 10, D 18, C 14 I 12 W 16 Ch 8, Traits Dangerously Curious, Beast of the Society

Items Agile Amulet of Mighty Fist, Ring of Protection +1 Cloak of Protection +1, Wand of Mage Armor, Wand of Cure Light Wounds

Saving Throws F +7, R +6, W +8

Feats Weapon Finesse, Piranha Strike, Natural Spell

Spells Frostbite, Produce Flame, Barkskin, Fireball, Flaming Sphere, Burning Hands, Greater Magic Fang

FLy around as an eagle for 10 hours, should be most of the adventuring day.

AC 25 = 10 Base + 5 Dex + 4 Mage Armor + 1 Ring + 1 Natural + 1 Size + 3 Barkskin

Melee 3 att at +9 to hit = +3 Bab, +5 Dex, +1 Size, +1 Greater Magic Fang, -1 Piranha Strike
for 1d4 + 8 damage (5 Dex, 2 Piranha Strike, 1 Greater magic Fang)

Can cast 1 6d6 Fireball (Place magic), Burning Hands (5d4), Produce Flame (1d6+5)

For melee can cast frostbite, move in for a touch attack then deliver a round of attacks that is 3 attack, +9 to hit, 1d4+8 damage + 1d6+6 nonlethal cold. or do produce flame for the more firebird feel adding 1d6+5.

Healing - Wand, lesser restoration, Cure Moderate if needed.

Now who doesn't want to be a small phoenix at level 5.


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ChaosTicket wrote:
Again, what do you think versatility means? Please show me your dictionary definition.

Merriam-Webster, definition 2: "embracing a variety of subjects, fields, or skills; also : turning with ease from one thing to another." Also definition 4: "having many uses or applications."

Quote:


Im trying to see if a Druid is adaptable to any situation.

It is. But that's specifically not part of the definition, since the definition only encompasses "a variety," not "any." And it also doesn't demand exceptional ability in any situation, merely competence.

Quote:


The most flanderized form them yeah it means a person who has:

1 melee combat

Covered by wild shape, which provides stat bonuses and special abilities (like multiple natural attacks and pounce) that provide tremendous damage while preserving mobility.

Quote:


2 ranged combat, either with a weapon or spells

You're holding a rock? Good, you can throw it.

More generally, you have a marvelous ranged combat technique via summoning spells. A bad guy is attacking you from atop a wall? Put something with teeth and claws in its face.

Quote:


3 good with or without class features

This is just nonsense. As it, it literally has no meaning. A character without class features is a commoner. Class features are what allow characters to do what they do.

Quote:


4 spells

Nine level full caster.

Quote:


5 skills, havent brought it up yet because 4+ skills is fine.

.... and most of many skills are made useless by spells and class features. Who needs the Swim skill when you can turn into a fish and breathe water?

I also note that, as a prepared divine caster, you can completely reshufflle your spell list from day to day, or take a few moments to select any druid spell to fill a slot you left empty. So the second half of definition 2 is met as well.


ChaosTicket wrote:
What do you think versatility means? Please show me your requirements. Otherwise you'll keep getting the "useless and off-topic" posts you're getting now.

Grand Lodge

Dual talented human.

14+2,12,14,12,16+2,7

Fire Domain - Ash. You got fireball and disintegrate. (answers 2 also see above post with all blasting spells)

Feats Heavy Armor Prof (answers 1), Toughness (answers 1), Natural Spell, Planar Wild Shape (answers 1), Spell Focus evocation(answers 2).

Main Wild Shape Dire Tiger Using any AC tricks found above. (answers 1)

(4) Spells

Mix in longer term buffs. Barkskin, greater magic fang. Throw on resinous skin for extra DR and a nice debuff for no action.

Pick the blasting spells you like. Mix range touch attacks and spells with saves. Take some snowballs to intensify or rime for the SR no as a back up.

Make sure you have some spells like daylight, airwalk etc to save the day when need be. Pounce with air walk will keep everything in attacking distance.

Get some control spells thorn wall, or any wall will do they are amazing. The ground spike spells are solid too. You can ignore these if you don't want to do any controlling.

A melee damage boosting spell is good to. Bristle, frostbite, produce flame, bonefist, strong jaw, etc.

For DCs a rod of persistent is 9000gp and works out to about +4 to the dc of your spell. It's the most efficient way to boost the spells on the cheap. Bouncing is also great but you wont take a lot of single target spells.

(5) skills per level = 5

I don't know what 4 means.

The alternate to this is take elemental forms exclusively and put the resizing enchantment on your weapon and armour. Air walking earth elemental is scary.


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This is where I usually mention that Elven Druids have bow and sword proficiency. Mostly it's the bow that's relevant for ranged attacks at the low levels.


Okay so very different opinion on what different levels of competence are.

If you think throwing a rock makes you competent at range combat I ask how large of a rock? If its the size of a cannonball maybe it could useful. Sling boulders at people if you can. Make them homing boulders so they can hit moving targets. ooh can I have a catapult?

Prepare casters arent versatile by having niche abilities that you either have or dont. There is no "one spell to rule them all" that can get you out of any situation...well except maybe Miracle or Wish.

To a lesser extend spells arent well rounded in their own category.
Fireball is great but if the enemy is fire resistant or immune then you need a whole other spell, metamagic, or the Wizard can take the Evocation school to switch damage types.

Other spells are far more specialized with Limited range, single target, bad scaling, etc. So to scale they would need to be multiplied. SOme spells actually do work that well. I knew a few that do increase in targets every level so that single target spell turns into a group target one.

For me well Im looking for versatile spells. I doubt Ill find any at each flaw in a spell is supposed to be answered a whole different Druid spell. For example I probably wont find Entangle that works without vegetation or against air targets or Charm Animal that grows into "Charm animals-Humans-monsters-outsiders-abominations"


ChaosTicket wrote:


For me well Im looking for versatile spells. I doubt Ill find any

I doubt you'll find any either, because you don't actually understand the word "versatile."

As per the definition I posted earlier, it means "embracing a variety of subjects, fields, or skills," not "embracing every possible subject, field, and skill."

Quote:
For example I probably wont find ...Charm Animal that grows into "Charm Humans<monsters<groups<armies"

Given that such a spell does not exist in the the game, for any caster,.... no, you won't find it on the Druid list. That's not me exaggerating your requirements -- that's your own requirement in your own words. And it's self-evidently unreasonable. Nothing in Pathfinder is "versatile" by your standards, because you demonstrably consider -- and no, this isn't flanderization, this is mere reading comprehension -- "versatile" to be a synonym for "omnipotent."


Regarding spells: Spells aren't meant as catch-alls. Entangle works in a natural environment, Obsidian Flow is meant for rocky environments, and Fog Cloud works pretty much anywhere without wind, and Slowing Mud works in a small area. All except Fog Cloud require saves, but all of them except Slowing Mud can hamper enemy movement. Between all of these, you've got every environment type covered. And most of these are in different spell levels, so you're not hogging all of one particular spell level.

And how the hell are prepared casters not versatile? They're the epitome of versatility, with changing their spell list every day.


Versatility of the spell means its not such specialized field that the spell becomes weak or useless outside its field. Crowd control spells that work on any species are a versatile while ones that work only against animals are not.

How about buffs that work on your, your dog, maybe your friends? So its a general purpose buff.

I see greater versatility in the Cleric and Wizard spell lists. Hold Monster for crowd control or use Blessing of Fervor on your whole group.

Does the Druid have any crowd control that work on *every* species or buffs that work on *any* class?

Quentin Coldwater wrote:
And how the hell are prepared casters not versatile? They're the epitome of versatility, with changing their spell list every day.

HA HA Okay at this point I am convinced nobody is using "versatility" right. Changing your spells is very different from having spells that work against everything.


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ChaosTicket wrote:
Versatility of the spell means its not such specialized field that the spell becomes weak or useless outside its field.

No, it doesn't. <shrug> Versatility does not mean omnipotence.


HAHA another funny one. That actually made me laugh.

Okay if you think Charm Animal working on humans is the power of GOD then we are in completely different levels of everything apparently.

Grand Lodge

So two more roles added contoller and save or die caster based on your spell examples. Let's try to help. It's silly to compare yourself you a wizard that can't do melee. That is the type of example that leads people to think you want to do everything. You can't blast as well as a dedicated blaster without being one. So moving on.

Rime ice slick has smaller radius (good and bad). And can act and an entangle spell.

You got me on hold person/monster criteria was not expecting to have to include a new category of spell. You will just have to take explosion of rot and slowing mud for multi target stagger.


ChaosTicket wrote:


I see greater versatility in the Cleric and Wizard spell lists. Hold Monster for crowd control or use Blessing of Fervor on your whole group.

Does the Druid have any crowd control that work on *every* species ?

Neither does the wizard. Hold Monster is a mind-affecting enchantment spell and doesn't work, for example, on most undead, or for that matter, on plants or vermin.

Your standards are once again demonstrated to be unreasonable within the Pathfinder system.


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ChaosTicket wrote:


HA HA Okay at this point I am convinced nobody is using "versatility" right.

including, apparently, the Merriam-Webster dictionary, since they support the definition used by everyone else on the thread.


versatile
[vur-suh-tl or, esp. British, -tahyl]

Synonyms
Examples
Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective
1.
capable of or adapted for turning easily from one to another of various tasks, fields of endeavor, etc.:
a versatile writer.
2.
having or capable of many uses:
a versatile tool.
3.
Botany. attached at or near the middle so as to swing freely, as an anther.
4.
Zoology. turning either forward or backward:
a versatile toe.
5.
variable or changeable, as in feeling, purpose, or policy:
versatile moods.

Versatile casters mean people who can change up their spells when they feel like it. Clerics and Druids are super versatile, cherry-picking from a huge list every day. It means that if one spell doesn't work, they probably have another spell that will. Blaster Sorcerers aren't versatile. They only know damage spells, and if an enemy is immune to that specific element, they're pretty much out of luck (since most good spells are all Fire-based, and that's the most common resistance).
Versatile does NOT mean working on different creature types. That's just plain usefulness. Hold Person isn't very useful against non-humanoids. Entangle isn't very useful in the desert. Their versatility is indeed limited, but Druids are certainly useful/versatile in all these situations.


Honestly CT, at this point I think you have to look at a different game system for the sake of your own sanity. It's clear that you're not happy with how Pathfinder is structured. Some have suggested GURPS, might also be good for you to check out the Fantasy Age system, which has the warrior/rogue/mage idea you mentioned earlier in the thread.


ChaosTicket wrote:
How about buffs that work on your, your dog, maybe your friends? So its a general purpose buff.

Barkskin, Feather Step, Jump, Liberating Command, Keen Senses, Pass Without Trace, Touch of the Sea are all good buffs/spells that work on everyone (though some durations are better than others), and that's just first level.

ChaosTicket wrote:

I see greater versatility in the Cleric and Wizard spell lists. Hold Monster for crowd control or use Blessing of Fervor on your whole group.

Does the Druid have any crowd control that work on *every* species or buffs that work on *any* class?

Pretty much no class has a catch-all feature. Those are inherently in the system. If you can't hit it with magic (spell resistance), hit it with your sword. If it has nasty DR, use special weapons or use magic. If it's invisible, someone can either use something to make it visible (Glitterdust, Invisibility Purge), or attack it on its own. Sometimes, one character can't do much in combat, and that's fine. There's still three other people to pick up the slack for you. And as I said, I listed several options up above that work on everyone. Not everyone has the same use for it, but still. A Rogue will probably not need a Jump, but a Fighter in heavy armour will welcome it. A Wizard will laugh at your offering of Bristle, but a Monk will love it. Still though, Resist Energy and Stoneskin will be must-haves for everyone. Can't imagine a character not wanting to have one of those on 24/7.


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ChaosTicket it's starting to seem like you are arguing just to argue now. I have read PLENTY of posts here that show how versatile the Druid class is but you maintain that these ideas are incorrect.

There is NO class that will be the best at EVERYTHING. There isn't even a class that is AS good at every thing that other classes specialize in.

Seriously... myself and others have pointed out solutions to your biggest complaints about the class but you dismiss them, for the most part, and then make additional complaints or non-relevant comparisons. It seems like you wanted more to defeat people's opinions about the class being versatile than actually wanting to learn how it could be.

You can argue all you like but the fact remains that the Druid is a very versatile class. You don't like Druid? Try Bard... they are also pretty well balanced. You wanna be the best blaster caster ever? Go be a Wizard/Sorcerer.


PhoenixSlayer wrote:
Honestly CT, at this point I think you have to look at a different game system for the sake of your own sanity. It's clear that you're not happy with how Pathfinder is structured. Some have suggested GURPS, might also be good for you to check out the Fantasy Age system, which has the warrior/rogue/mage idea you mentioned earlier in the thread.

I didnt actually mention a rogue even once, until just now.

I keep repeating myself and people interpreting the wrong things.

To you I thinks its coming out as "I want Disintegrate that blows up the planet that teleports me and makes me invincible"

To me, its just a crowd control spell that works on any monster(before tier 9 thank you).

Yeah im in the wrong system of spells. For me there are two general options. #1 the spell scales up to be more effective. #2 you have a new spell to replace the one not scaling.

Druid spells and abilities arent adaptable individually. I shouldnt need to say how having a buff that only works on natural attacks is specialized.

Verdant Wheel

Question.

What happens to a Druid's power level if Dinosaurs are extinct?

(This is a serious question from a DM)

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