Druids: Jack of All Trades?


Advice

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I suspect the Druid spell list is better than the Witch spell list, after all.

Silver Crusade

Chess Pwn wrote:


What are you wanting MECHANICALLY from armor? Armor is just AC, if you reach the same AC without armor then the armor isn't needed, what AC are you looking for?

seriously, answer these two question, questions THAT ARE ACTUALLY TRYING TO HELP YOU GET WHAT YOU WANT, and you'll begin to see answer THAT YOU LIKE.

My L14 druid, following PFS limitations, in a Giant Slayer campaign where the bad guys hit well and hit hard, has an AC of 42. I saw no reason to make it higher but I could raise that a little if I needed to.


pauljathome wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


What are you wanting MECHANICALLY from armor? Armor is just AC, if you reach the same AC without armor then the armor isn't needed, what AC are you looking for?

seriously, answer these two question, questions THAT ARE ACTUALLY TRYING TO HELP YOU GET WHAT YOU WANT, and you'll begin to see answer THAT YOU LIKE.

My L14 druid, following PFS limitations, in a Giant Slayer campaign where the bad guys hit well and hit hard, has an AC of 42. I saw no reason to make it higher but I could raise that a little if I needed to.

This is my point. If it's Just AC we can show that the awesome druid class can reach the AC without needing celestial full plate.

If it's that he wants his character to wear celestial full plate and only that specific armor and he needs it to be on the class just to be wearing it and not to reach a certain AC, then he can worship Gorum and wear metal armor.
If it's something else then we can look at that. The deal is that by not stating anything to help us understand what he's looking for we're very likely to not give the answer he's really wanting.

Silver Crusade

Chess Pwn wrote:


This is my point. If it's Just AC we can show that the awesome druid class can reach the AC without needing celestial full plate.
If it's that he wants his character to wear celestial full plate and only that specific armor and he needs it to be on the class just to be wearing it and not to reach a certain AC, then he can worship Gorum and wear metal armor.
If it's something else then we can look at that. The deal is that by not stating anything to help us understand what he's looking for we're very likely to not give the answer he's really wanting.

I completely agree with you. My example was meant to support your point :-).

To add to it :
That level 14 druid normally rides his airwalking greater longstridered Animal Companion and so, effectively, has fly. Obviously, I can choose to just put those spells on myself instead but then my Prehistoric Rhino wouldn't get to charge and trample as well and that would make him unhappy. Got to keep the Rhino happy :-)


AT will spellasting is more adaptable to situations than prepare spellcasting.

As a prepare caster you can either have a group of different spells or have multiple uses of the same spell to cover multiple uses.

A Druid does increase in versatility but not in the way I would like. Juts thinking about buff spells each tier would be one spell with all the slots devoted to that one spell.

Tier 1 spells would be Shillelagh and tier 2 would be Barkskin.

Now compare that to a Sorcerer casting any spell known on that.

An Arcanist has an interesting intermediate system as it prepares spells but they arent locked to specific slots so if you waned to you could have all your spells as attack spells, buffs, or mix them by choice, so its practically the same.


I do think, if we think of "Nature" as the fourth kind of magic, as has been proposed earlier in this thread, there should probably be a 9 level spontaneous nature caster- the oracle to the druid's cleric or sorcerer to the druid's wizard.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Quote:

A Druid does increase in versatility but not in the way I would like. Juts thinking about buff spells each tier would be one spell with all the slots devoted to that one spell.

Tier 1 spells would be Shillelagh and tier 2 would be Barkskin.

Do you never buy pearls of power?

If that's all you are doing, just prep one slot at each level. After combat, you can pray for those same spells again, or put a more useful spell in your open slots.


ChaosTicket wrote:


A Druid does increase in versatility but not in the way I would like.

???

You have to realize how vacuous "its not doing it the way i want it to" is.

Quote:
Juts thinking about buff spells each tier would be one spell with all the slots devoted to that one spell.

Nothing in the game does that. Even haste, which is pretty close, does that because its powerful, not versatile.

What you're looking for is

a wand of channel the gift . use wand, cast buff spell without burning the buff spell. (or perhaps a staff)

A string of pearls of power. (sustainably harvested)

or maybe a staff appropriate to druids with a bunch of spells like barkskin on it.

Grand Lodge

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People have asked for a charisma based spontaneous caster druid. I bet it exists in 3p stuff.

Saying a druid is less flexible than an arcanist is the same weak comparison everybody has been complaining about. It falls apart in two ways. First, you look at one class feature in isolation. Yes their casting is more flexible but they can't do melee, there weapon choices are worse, they have crappier saves and less access to AC. You wont be wearing celestial armour on an arcanist. That sounds less versatile to me.

Second, the whole classes purpose is spell flexibility. If that was given to every class why would arcanists exist. Think about it this way if druids had that casting style they would have the most flexible casting style, and the earliest spell progression. Again, you just ask for a class feature that a class does not have because it's better and ignore the other features of the class. Like early spell access, not having to find and pay for scribing the spell.

These halfhearted comparisons lead people to think what you want it a Lucern hammer wielding druid, with great ac no compromises, spontaneous casting of prepared spells, and improved list of spells cherry picked from other lists, with the restriction on metal armour gone.


The Sideromancer wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
ChaosTicket wrote:
#1 is AC. There are some alternatives but Druid just has really bad rules in this regard.

Not really. The only rule is no metal. Lamellar Leather Armor is lovely Light Armor. Lamellar Horn is slightly less good than Lamellar Steel, but you could probaby have made for you a Darkwood Agile Breastplate. And Stone Plate is Awesome, if you want heavy armor.

The only real problem is when you are wildshaping. The Wild enchantment is expensive: +3, but I already told you the workaround: Have Barding made for you in your favorite Wildshaped form(s), then just put your armor on immediately after Wildshaping, especially via a Swift Girding Spell. If you really want the heavy armor, dip a level of Paladin, then you can wear Stone Plate, and use a Wand of Swift Girding to put it on.

You would need the Grey Paladin archetype, otherwise the alignments are mutually exclusive (LG is not "any Neutral")

I only want the Swift Girding Spell, and only to use the Wand at that. Magus, Wizard, or Arcanist would all do nicely.

Ooh, snap, I also want Heavy Armor. So another dip would be in order. Or I could follow your excellent suggestion of Archetype.


Grandlounge wrote:

People have asked for a charisma based spontaneous caster druid. I bet it exists in 3p stuff.

Saying a druid is less flexible than an arcanist is the same weak comparison everybody has been complaining about. It falls apart in two ways. First, you look at one class feature in isolation. Yes their casting is more flexible but they can't do melee, there weapon choices are worse, they have crappier saves and less access to AC. You wont be wearing celestial armour on an arcanist. That sounds less versatile to me.

Second, the whole classes purpose is spell flexibility. If that was given to every class why would arcanists exist. Think about it this way if druids had that casting style they would have the most flexible casting style, and the earliest spell progression. Again, you just ask for a class feature that a class does not have because it's better and ignore the other features of the class. Like early spell access, not having to find and pay for scribing the spell.

These halfhearted comparisons lead people to think what you want it a Lucern hammer wielding druid, with great ac no compromises, spontaneous casting of prepared spells, and improved list of spells cherry picked from other lists, with the restriction on metal armour gone.

Don't forget that the Animal Companion gains spellcasting at higher levels too. He's complained that they are okay 4-7 but fall off later because of no spells or SLA. ;)

Grand Lodge

I will try harder to get it right next time.


Of course, spontaneous casters aren't versatile either because their spell selection is locked and they can't change it for city forest or tundra.


ChaosTicket wrote:

AT will spellasting is more adaptable to situations than prepare spellcasting.

Now compare that to a Sorcerer casting any spell known on that.

That is just nonsense! Sorcerers are actually worst than any prepared caster. They can only do one thing, they spell known is so limited that they can't afford to broaden their scope!

At level 4 a druid gains abilities that an Arcane Caster can only dream of. Cannot be dispelled and can fly for up to 4 hours a day.
Yes, you can't cast yet, but even so a Wizard would only get that at level 5 and it's taking up a slot and only last 5 min a whooping 5 min...


Since when? Sorcerers can learn a finite number of spells compared to the theoretically complete set of possible spells a Wizard may take, but that number is still more than one spell per tier a prepared caster may have to take. Sure you could split your slots up with the benefits and drawbacks.

a Sorceror can learn 43 spells from level 1-20. Then you add 9 more bonus spells from you Bloodline. You can also learn additional spells through a favored class bonus. So a Sorcerer can know 72 different spells. Oracle learns the same number I believe.

A Wizard can actually learn more tier 9 spells, so that part is true. Without actively purchasing new spell books and learning spells from found spellbook and scrolls a wizard will actually know about the same number. A Wizard has more selection of where to learn spells each level. If you wanted to you could learn 8 tier 9 spells compared to a Sorcerer being maxed out at 4.

---------------
I have two questions from the 4th page. #1 can you have multiple Pearls of Power? How many per spell tier? Is only the highest level Pearl counted?

#2 Animal Companions can learn spells? How...without Awaken to allow class levels? Awaken was already mentioned pages ago because it would raise your anaimals stats and allow class levels.

Awaken is confusing as it reads like it removes ALL your class benefits from being an Animal Companion and leave you only the drawbacks like low Hit Dice. I dont know it it just means you swap your levels with class levels of your choice.


you can have as many pearls as you buy.


I would really appreciate an answer to my question earlier - where do your expectations come from?


We are not talking about sorcerers in opposition to wizards. It's all about druids. Druids know ALL the spells on their list. And they can choose from that list the ones they need for the day, so you can completely change your spells from one day to another.
A sorcerer can know a bunch of spells but as you have limited knowledge you will probably have to leave out a lot of utility and situational spells to focus in a single strategy and a few spells to fill the holes. I'm not saying that a sorcerer cannot be versatile, but I think a druid has access to more resources than a sorcerer does.
And back to the wizard, if you're sticking to the spells you learn just by leveling up I might aggree, but why wouldn't you be buying new spells to add to your spellbook? When I play a Wizard / Witch,etc. getting new spells is usually my first goal, more than buying gear (even though I try to keep my character equiped enough too).


Now we are arguing which part of a flexible is applicable and the answer is all of them, because it covers a great deal.

A druid cannot change its spells as needed within a short time frame. Yes you technically know every possible spell on the Druid spell list but you cannot actually cast them all in the same day, Pearls of Power dont change your spells. They grant another use of that prepared spell.

A druid spellcasting system means there is no way to actually be able to fully utilize all that as you dont even have enough daily slots to cast each spell once or have fewer spells to cast multiple times

The Stereotype is that Sorcerer=Blaster because its limited spell selection and higher number of slots. Its more adaptable than that. Using the above mentioned ways to learn bonus spells and ability score bonuses you can a large number of spells and change them as needed. If

Hmm to compare it its like the Druid has a massive number of keys but has to assemble them on a small key ring and change keys every day. A Sorcerer/Oracle on the other hand has a smaller ring but those keys can change fit different locks.

They are both adaptable, just in different ways.


A Druid can leave a spell slot open, which adds versatility for non-combat magic.

I find Druids are best when they specialise. Either Strength-focused melee monsters (sometimes literally) who don't expect to beat enemy saving throws but can still summon and cast utility magic, or Wisdom-focused casters who use their wild-shaping for scouting, not combat.


There is a mechanic that has been mentioned a few times that you might not be aware of that adds to the versatility of prepared casters and especially the divine ones.

Quote:
When preparing spells for the day, a cleric can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if she prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.

This references Cleric but it works for all prepared casters.

What I do with my druid is that I prepare good spells in most of the slots and leave about one open slot per spell level. If I start to run low on some spells I can take 15 minutes to replenish or if I find I really need a spell I can slot that in. It is usually not hard to find the 15 minutes to prep new spells.

Also keep in mind that you can prepare lower level spells in higher level slots. It is the end of the day and you really need that lesser restoration right now? No problem I have an open level 6 slot that I can put it in.

Another great versatility that Druids have with their spells is the ability to convert any prepared spell into a summon natures ally, if you prepared wood themed spells and find yourself underground, no problem that previously useless spell can now summon some extra meatshields against the BBEG.

This also means you will never need to prepare the summon spells as any other prepared spell doubles as one.~


A Druid can change his spell selection each day. A Sorcerer has to stick to the same spell selection until leveling up.
If you are clever enough you should be able to predict which spells you are needing for the day.
I aggree that spontaneous casting adds some flexibility to the way you cast your spells, if you have, let's say, Haste and Fireball as your 3rd level spells you can cast all Haste, all Fireballs or any combination of them. You can even cast Invisibility as a 3rd level spell if you have no 2nd level spells left.That makes you more flexible than a prepared caster in a way but no way it makes you more versatile because you'll keep having a much more limited spell list than a prepared caster will have.
Also, getting to change some prepared spells for SNA add some more versatility to the druid.
I have to say also that I never say that sorcerers must be blasters nor I do think that is true. Sorcerers can fit into a lot of roles but if you are a blaster your main role is probably being a blaster forever, if you're, let's say, an enchanter or a summoner, you'll have to pick most of your spells and feats to fit that role. So I don't think that's the most versatile thing ever.

The Exchange

Wizards & sorcerers are very bad in healing or without magic....


ChaosTicket wrote:

Since when? Sorcerers can learn a finite number of spells compared to the theoretically complete set of possible spells a Wizard may take, but that number is still more than one spell per tier a prepared caster may have to take. Sure you could split your slots up with the benefits and drawbacks.

a Sorceror can learn 43 spells from level 1-20. Then you add 9 more bonus spells from you Bloodline. You can also learn additional spells through a favored class bonus. So a Sorcerer can know 72 different spells. Oracle learns the same number I believe.

A Wizard can actually learn more tier 9 spells, so that part is true. Without actively purchasing new spell books and learning spells from found spellbook and scrolls a wizard will actually know about the same number. A Wizard has more selection of where to learn spells each level. If you wanted to you could learn 8 tier 9 spells compared to a Sorcerer being maxed out at 4.
...

A sorcerer can learn 34 spells and 9 cantrips. Very different. The limit of "one level lower" on the FCB means that at levels 1-2, the sorcerer knows a grand total of two real spells. At 3 they'll pick up two more, and two more at 4. But all but one of those are first level spells. Said sorcerer will have at least 3 level 2 spells per day, and exactly one spell that actually fulfills the full potential.

So unless you've got unmentioned houserules saying Sorcerer spells somehow work like DSP psionics or 5e and scale up to the pp expended/slot used, I'm not seeing how this is "more versatile". Druids get 1/day Wild Shape and the ability to change which form they use every time they use it. Sorcerers get exactly one 2nd level spell that they can only swap out for a new one at level 6. That better be one heck of a 2nd level spell. Please, enlighten us as to what it is.

Druids can spend 15 minutes filling open spell slots like every other prepared caster. Sure, they can't cast every spell on their list. There's 89 1st level spells alone. But if it turns out spell #79 (which is actually pretty awesome) would immediately solve your problem, the Druid can prepare it. The Sorcerer either can do it or they can't. The Druid always can do it, given at most a day.

Your analogy is woefully flawed. A Druid has a master key ring with hundreds of regenerating, disposable keys. They walk around holding a small subset of those keys, but if they feel like it they can pull out the master key ring and hunt for any specific key they might want. A Sorcerer is just carrying a small key ring. The keys are a little more durable than the Druid's, but that's it. They don't change shape to match the lock, they don't fit more locks, they don't do anything but take longer to "break". The Sorcerer might eventually have a larger key ring in hand, but the Druid master key ring will always be waaaaaaay bigger.

Sorcerer spells are not inherently more flexible than druid spells. Barring Wish, Miracle, and some specific spells (Simulacrum, Planar Binding, etc.), spells as a whole are exceedingly inflexible. They do what they say, nothing more.

Let's go through the Sorcerer spells you've mentioned: Hold Monster, mind-affecting and only affects living things, only effect is paralysis; Fireball, fire damage and caps at 10d6, effect is damage and set objects on fire; Shield, effect is +4 AC and negates magic missile, Heroism, mind-affecting and single target, effect is +2 to a bunch of rolls; Disintegrate, effect is to damage creatures or destroy up to a 10 foot cube; Haste, effect is a bunch of minor +1s, +30 foot speed, and extra attack on a full attack.

Hold monster is useless against constructs, undead, and anything with mindless. Its only effect is to paralyze someone. How is this flexible? Fireball deals damage (the most commonly resisted) and caps at 10d6. Again, where's the flexibility? Shield is basically just a bonus to AC. What's flexible about that? Heroism is a minor bonus on a bunch of rolls. This one at least does have more than one use. Too bad it's also single-target, so you're not spreading it around with blowing quite a few spells. Disintegrate can either do damage or destroy an object... which you could also do by causing damage to it, so this one is basically just does damage. Again, why is "can cause damage" flexible? Haste is a good combat buff... unless you don't full attack (spellcaster) or don't need to move (archer), in which case you're getting a lot less benefit. Either way, the effect is "do combat better". Why is that flexible? It only helps with one thing, combat. It doesn't open up more combat options either, it just lets them "combat more" (by attacking more and moving farther). They don't fly, they don't get longer reach, they don't shoot lasers, they just do what they were already doing, but more.

And when you compare to Druid spells, you cherry-pick the limited ones like Charm Animal. If you're going to compare, you should compare to the flexible Druid spells. Here's Call Animal. If it lives in the area, you can call any animal CR<=CL. At level 1, free horse. At level 4, pet tiger. Level 9, T-rex. What first level Wizard spell is that flexible? Then take that animal and carry it around with you. Unlike the Wizard, you can use your spells to actually get some.


If you like spontaneous casting, I'd take a look at a Psychic with the Rebirth discipline. You get an extra spell known that you can change every day, and you get to change the spell list it comes from with each level. The class does have some weaknesses that come with psychic casting, and it's no use in melee, but it's pretty nice for spell flexibility. (They also get a nice little perk- discipline spells on even levels.) Exploiter Wizard is another good option (banned at the tables I play) since it can use an Arcanist's ability to swap a prepared spell on the fly a few times per day. Anybody with casting that good is going to be awful in a physical fight, though, so if that is part of your definition of versatile, Druid is still the best it's going to get.

I'm guessing people keep mentioning high level abilities in part because you do it now and then. Sorcerer is one of the least flexible starting classes, with two first level spells that have to last it two whole levels. I agree that at very high levels, the Sorcerer is a flexible class, having learned enough spells to cover most major situations, but before that, half the time it is behind one spell level, and the other half, it only knows a single spell of its highest level. That doesn't stop being the case until level 19, when nobody gets a new spell level. They might be more flexible than a Druid before that, depending on the definition one takes, but I'd say it's going to be more than half way through. (Sorcerers are also terrible at fighting.)

If you like Oracles, though, they start each spell level with a cure spell and a spell of their choice, and they can be good in a fight (especially if they worship Desna).

As for Druid, as mentioned, open slots are great. Don't forget your bonus spells from your Wisdom, either! Your spells per day are generally going to be one more than listed, and that's the slot you leave open for emergencies. (After a level or two. When you first start, you lack the wiggle room for that.)

No class gets low-level flexibility within the day- at least, not while being good. If you want that, you are going to be waiting for at least fifth level. Druids can cast while transformed, and Wizards can prepare an empty slot in a minute or two.

Oh, almost forgot! If your Druid worships Erastil, there's a feat to get Wisdom as your longbow attack stat. Hasn't been put up yet, but that's a way for LN or NG Druids to ignore the problems with an armor's max Dex!


No answer for me? :(


Wasum wrote:
No answer for me? :(

There was mention of the WoW Druid at one point. I don't know if that's the answer or not, but it might be part of it. (I haven't played, but I've heard Druids were, maybe are, pretty broken- too much healing, I think?)


Last time I played them WoW Druids had 3 different specialized fields of abilities in offense spells, healing spells, and shapeshifting. Their weakness was that other classes could be more specialized by having their own specialized fields and combining them. a Priest class had a Shield ability to prevent damage which could be upgraded to also reflect damage. a Mage could use cold attacks that slow or immobilize the enemy.

I dont think Ill see anything like that.

This has been going in the wrong direction. Ive occasionally said positive things but then redirected it to explain why the negatives are what I am trying to avoid.

So Instead Ill try to roll into the positives. Ive seen a couple build combinations. Ill start with a minimal combination.

Vine Strike plus Giant Octopus Wild Shape as early as level 6. 8 attacks with 20 foot reach doing 1d4+1d6+half strength bonus. Just to make it worse each attack has a free Grab and causes Entangled.

starting with 16 average strength, a +2 strength belt, and +4 strength from wild shape you would 22 strength and have average of 9 damage per tentacle. On 8 attacks you could have 72 damage per turn. Thats not including the Bite attack, Constrict, or other buffs.


ChaosTicket wrote:

Last time I played them WoW Druids had 3 different specialized fields of abilities in offense spells, healing spells, and shapeshifting.

It's changed. Shapeshifting has been broken up into two specialisations, tanking with bear, or damage dealing rogue style as cat. Druids now have 4 specs instead of 3.


ChaosTicket wrote:


So Instead Ill try to roll into the positives. Ive seen a couple build combinations. Ill start with a minimal combination.

Vine Strike plus Giant Octopus Wild Shape as early as level 6. 8 attacks with 20 foot reach doing 1d4+1d6+half strength bonus. Just to make it worse each attack has a free Grab and causes Entangled.

I'd consider this broken. That many attacks makes no sense at that level


Letric wrote:
I'd consider this broken. That many attacks makes no sense at that level

I mean, to reign it in you'd have to be really strict on how long an octopus can survive outside of water before starting to asphyxiate (octopuses don't have lungs, y'all.)

The Exchange

Letric wrote:


I'd consider this broken. That many attacks makes no sense at that level

The player of a normal Druid with Animal Companion like a Velociraptor got 4 attacks at 1 level per round.

An animal shaman with totem transformation got 6 attacks at 2 level....

But a normal Octopus seems to have only 1 tentacle attack.
The giant octopus...well,that's different.


ChaosTicket wrote:

Last time I played them WoW Druids had 3 different specialized fields of abilities in offense spells, healing spells, and shapeshifting. Their weakness was that other classes could be more specialized by having their own specialized fields and combining them. a Priest class had a Shield ability to prevent damage which could be upgraded to also reflect damage. a Mage could use cold attacks that slow or immobilize the enemy.

I dont think Ill see anything like that.

This has been going in the wrong direction. Ive occasionally said positive things but then redirected it to explain why the negatives are what I am trying to avoid.

So Instead Ill try to roll into the positives. Ive seen a couple build combinations. Ill start with a minimal combination.

Vine Strike plus Giant Octopus Wild Shape as early as level 6. 8 attacks with 20 foot reach doing 1d4+1d6+half strength bonus. Just to make it worse each attack has a free Grab and causes Entangled.

starting with 16 average strength, a +2 strength belt, and +4 strength from wild shape you would 22 strength and have average of 9 damage per tentacle. On 8 attacks you could have 72 damage per turn. Thats not including the Bite attack, Constrict, or other buffs.

One major issue with that approach- you'll need a spell to be able to breathe air, unless you're holding your breath or fighting in water. Fortunately, Wild Shape is dismissible, so you won't suffocate to death unless you get knocked out.

Get air breathing, and you're a many-limbed murder machine.


While a giant octopus normally can't breath air because it is aquatic. Since when you polymorph you don't change your type you wouldn't gain the aquatic subtype and thus could still breath air. Also, I can see anywhere in the polymorph rules or wildshape or beast shape that says you'd gain the inability to breath air.

Scarab Sages

QuidEst wrote:
ChaosTicket wrote:

Last time I played them WoW Druids had 3 different specialized fields of abilities in offense spells, healing spells, and shapeshifting. Their weakness was that other classes could be more specialized by having their own specialized fields and combining them. a Priest class had a Shield ability to prevent damage which could be upgraded to also reflect damage. a Mage could use cold attacks that slow or immobilize the enemy.

I dont think Ill see anything like that.

This has been going in the wrong direction. Ive occasionally said positive things but then redirected it to explain why the negatives are what I am trying to avoid.

So Instead Ill try to roll into the positives. Ive seen a couple build combinations. Ill start with a minimal combination.

Vine Strike plus Giant Octopus Wild Shape as early as level 6. 8 attacks with 20 foot reach doing 1d4+1d6+half strength bonus. Just to make it worse each attack has a free Grab and causes Entangled.

starting with 16 average strength, a +2 strength belt, and +4 strength from wild shape you would 22 strength and have average of 9 damage per tentacle. On 8 attacks you could have 72 damage per turn. Thats not including the Bite attack, Constrict, or other buffs.

One major issue with that approach- you'll need a spell to be able to breathe air, unless you're holding your breath or fighting in water. Fortunately, Wild Shape is dismissible, so you won't suffocate to death unless you get knocked out.

Get air breathing, and you're a many-limbed murder machine.

Actually, you don't need to find a way to breathe air, polymorph effects don't change your creature type, so you never gain aquatic, so you never lose the ability to breathe air. You don't actually become an octopus, you put on a very lifelike octopus suit.


You know that cantrip, Create Water...yeah

By the way and octopus can live about an hour out of water. You can create water. There is a tier 4 Druid spell, Globe of Tranquil Water, that puts you in a big water bubble that moves with you.

Oh yeah, an octopus has no bones so can squeeze in areas other forms cant. Id love to see a GM try to argue that the octopus cant squeeze into a small opening. Or at the very least a medium one.


Well, a regular-sized octopus can survive for about an hour out of water, but a giant-sized one would probably asphyxiate much more quickly.

It's a square divided by a cubic thing, since your volume (i.e. how much Oxygen you need to function) increases as r^3 and your surface area (i.e. what you respirate though, albeit inefficiently in air) increases as r^2.

Expect the "I am a giant octopus, you cannot stop me" approach to be irritating to some GMs though.

Grand Lodge

ChaosTicket wrote:

Last time I played them WoW Druids had 3 different specialized fields of abilities in offense spells, healing spells, and shapeshifting. Their weakness was that other classes could be more specialized by having their own specialized fields and combining them. a Priest class had a Shield ability to prevent damage which could be upgraded to also reflect damage. a Mage could use cold attacks that slow or immobilize the enemy.

I dont think Ill see anything like that.

This has been going in the wrong direction. Ive occasionally said positive things but then redirected it to explain why the negatives are what I am trying to avoid.

So Instead Ill try to roll into the positives. Ive seen a couple build combinations. Ill start with a minimal combination.

Vine Strike plus Giant Octopus Wild Shape as early as level 6. 8 attacks with 20 foot reach doing 1d4+1d6+half strength bonus. Just to make it worse each attack has a free Grab and causes Entangled.

starting with 16 average strength, a +2 strength belt, and +4 strength from wild shape you would 22 strength and have average of 9 damage per tentacle. On 8 attacks you could have 72 damage per turn. Thats not including the Bite attack, Constrict, or other buffs.

That is a favourite form for a reason. Other fun positives, you can two hand weapons as a hugh elemental and add shillelagh. Not the most optimised but a good option for dr-.

Riding an air walking tiger pouncing from the sky while you cast flame strike is pretty epic. Dire ape with a reach weapon offers some nice battle field control early on, though it requires some build consideration for proficiency.

Frost bite + dire tiger wild shape + tiger animal companion (lvl 7 +) two pounces.

First Pounce 2 claws 2 rakes 2d4+STR(7ish)+1d6+7 plus grab), bite 2d6+STR(7ish)+1d6+7/19–20 plus grab with a +14 to attack vs 20 AC when charging you're looking at 70 damage before crits are calculated. This leaves about 15 hit points for your buddy to clean up.

Be a Storm. Large Air Elemental + Call Lighting Storm. Slam attacks, lighting, picking people up for control! Oh ya you're a lighting tornado.


Chess Pwn wrote:
While a giant octopus normally can't breath air because it is aquatic. Since when you polymorph you don't change your type you wouldn't gain the aquatic subtype and thus could still breath air. Also, I can see anywhere in the polymorph rules or wildshape or beast shape that says you'd gain the inability to breath air.

Baleful Polymorph says that polymorphing a creature into an aquatic animal on land would be fatal, and references Beast Shape III for its transformation.


Well, guess that clause is never triggered, since the rules don't have you change types. Did 3.5 have you actually change types? If so then it might just be legacy text that is no longer applicable.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

The Alternate Form ability specifically calls out the aquatic subtype as transferring.


ChaosTicket wrote:
You know that cantrip, Create Water...yeah

No. Thats like trying to breathe a puff of air in space.

By the way and octopus can live about an hour out of water. You can create water. There is a tier 4 Druid spell, Globe of Tranquil Water, that puts you in a big water bubble that moves with you.

Quote:
Oh yeah, an octopus has no bones so can squeeze in areas other forms cant. Id love to see a GM try to argue that the octopus cant squeeze into a small opening. Or at the very least a medium one.

You don't gain the compress ability, so you can't do that any more than any other large creature can. Though you could get a belt of it...


Providing water for an octopus isnt about breathing, its about hydration of a semi-water muscular system. Youre not a fish with lungs not breathing. Youre a sea slug in a desert.

Aw now this is an argument of biology. I didnt expect that.

But the point being some combinations are quite powerful based on what abilities the form has, sometimes just how many natual attacks or whether it can fly or not. a Dog form is mediocre with a single attack while a Deinonychus has 4.

Play it right and you have a Pouncing Raptor druid AND A pouncing Raptor Animal Companion. Dont like Dinosaurs, be a Big Cat or a Roc. A Roc is a flying brick even at level 1.

Im trying to find a better working plan to be successful before your get animal forms(about 1-5), then after(6-10) and then plan about later all the way to a level 20 Druid.


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if you're wanting damage before animal form you carry a stick and hit people really hard with it. While flanking with your pet.

Liberty's Edge

At lower levels, your animal companion is probably doing enough damage by itself, even without the enhancements you can give it or using shillelagh and wading into battle yourself.


ChaosTicket wrote:


Im trying to find a better working plan to be successful before your get animal forms(about 1-5), then after(6-10) and then plan about later all the way to a level 20 Druid.

At low levels, your animal companion is often the equal or better to the party melee specialist, so you can either wade into combat next to him (shillelagh is your go-to spell for that), hang back and use buff and/or crowd control spells, or simply heal and aid.

By about level 3, summoning is also a useful option.

At higher levels, you can add "wildshape" to your list of options. You can also start using spells like call animal and animal friendship during downtime to make yourself a veritable zoo of assistants. By the time you get to high enough levels that your animal companion and other buddies stop being useful, you'll be rocking enough powerful spells that you can pull your own weight without relying on Fluffy.


Polymorph subschool wrote:
If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.

So if you lose the ability to breathe air... well, you can't breathe in water either. You don't "gain" the ability to do it, just "maintain" your previous ability to breathe.

As for damage, pick a good animal companion (and remember you can always trade it out in 24 hours). Spinosaurus and Camel start with 18 Str. If those are both out a Horse still starts with a respectable 16 Str. If you can't take a Horse... well, something has gone wrong, as Horse and Camel are the default mount options.


If you're planning on going melee you should have a high strength. Pick up a spear and hit things.

Melee druid

STR: 16+2 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 14 CHA: 7

The good druid spells don't HAVE dc.s baleful polymorph is nice, but buffs work a lot better, and feather stepping the party and dropping a stonecall on the dungeon screws up a lot of bad guys.


Nitpicking, but about the octopus being able to squeeze: that's what the Compression special quality is for. I'd agree that an Octopus would theoretically have that ability, but in this game, it doesn't.


Im still looking for a cannon on this tank. If anyone knows several 400+ range offense spells please tell me.

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