And if you don't want a Curse, what about a really high DC disease (or a really high DC but slow-acting poison)?
age
What level would be the characters at that point? Because that will determine which spells they have access to.
Damage to ability scores can be removed at any level. (Lesser Restoration)
Damage to hit points can be removed at any level.
Diseases and poison are removable at 5th level (Remove Disease and Neutralize Poison, requires a caster level check.)
Negative Levels can be removed at 7th level (Restoration).
Death can be fixed at 7th level (Reincarnate, even from old age). Also Raise Dead at 9th level. Resurrection at 13th level can bring back people killed by death effects.
Heal can fix anything but death, negative levels, or ability drain.
Basically, everything can be healed at some point. You just need to find something that is beyond the parties current abilities.
age
Reincarnate can fix that.
{. . .}
@UnArcaneElection, I was hoping for something that one could get as a result of being shipwrecked (in the tropics). Like water in the lungs - even collapsed lungs. Can you think of anything?
On Earth, our tropics have some really high DC diseases and poisons (at least, they should be really high DC given how hard they are to treat with modern medical technology). Pick any of those (although most of the tropical poisons are probably too fast-acting for what you want).
Sounds good?
It's a bit of railroading (actually, it's a lot of railroading), but it really is your only option. Maybe the symptoms can give a hint there's a Deity at work here?
The Gods are above the rules as they apply to players, which makes them great "scapegoats" for unexplainable phenomena.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What you are saying sounds a bit too forced. Even if they cannot succeed don't let them know you are forcing the events or they can feel railroaded.
You can also check the spells that they can cast that day. It's not completely impossible that they don't prepare anything to defend against poison as they don't expect it. So if they aren't able to cure him that day next one would be too late.
Another possible thing is making him receive massive damage. If he's attacked by a sea monster and half his body is ripped off losing some of his vital organs they would't be able to cure him with anything less than regenerate which is a high level spell.
If you don't want them to bring him back remember that you cannot resurrect anybody against his will, so if you don't want it to happen just say he doesn't want to be resurrected. Let him his last words be something about joining his beloved ones in the afterlife or something and let them think he doesn't want to come back from wherever he is.
If you use some kind of monster/animal as responsible for their death remember to allow your players to hunt/take revenge on it, as they could feel defenseless after that loss.
Ok thanks guys.
So it sounds like, according to the rules and mechanics, even death itself can be reversed.
So I'll have to force it a bit:
Probably my best bet is then to say that the NPC is dying of some disease and that nothing that they try seems to work. If they try to diagnose, just let them fail. If they roll a 20 or something on diagnonsis, I could tell them it's something like incurable lung collapse. (I checked: incurable is a thing).
Sounds good?
a genetic disease could be "incurable" as any attempt to heal them would simply reinforce the disease. AKA, the genetic disease is their natural state. if they revived him he'd be revived at the very end of his diseases progress and immediately start dying again.
note: genetic diseases aren't a rule thing, they're simply ways I've seen incurable diseases and such exist in a world like pathfinder.
the shipwreck has either worsened him or he has lost whatever medication is used to placate the symptoms and so he starts dying from them.
The NPC could also have an infernal pact (like the Damned effect of the Diabolist prestige class or the Infernal Contract of a contract devil) which hinders or even completely blocks attempts to revive the NPC. Add in the already mentioned Negative Energy Affinity to get him to die in the first place, and the contract would keep him dead.
Sounds good?It's a bit of railroading (actually, it's a lot of railroading), but it really is your only option. Maybe the symptoms can give a hint there's a Deity at work here?
The Gods are above the rules as they apply to players, which makes them great "scapegoats" for unexplainable phenomena.
I'd go with this. Maybe he pissed off Ghlaunder or Urgathoa and now they're punishing him.
Or, as someone else said, some incredibly high-DC curse or sickness they can't possibly cure on their own. Maybe have it stem from an artifact as to explain why it's so powerful. Prophecies don't work anymore, but maybe a really long-lasting curse from the past would work: his great-grandfather did a thing that offended something and his great-grandson shall suffer from it. Or everyone in the family once they reach a certain age. There's no way to possibly reverse the curse this late on (say, apologise to the offended one's relatives, but the family's died out as well), so they're doomed to live with the curse until their family dies out.
Basically if you need bullcrap reasons, it's usually artifacts or deities.
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Or... you could just let them save him and then have him insist on staying on the beach and building a bonfire to attract passing ships.
No railroading and no tagalong.
This is what I would do. If you whole reason is you don't want him to tag along, have the character choose not to tag along.
Hell, he can build bonfires on the beach and maybe work on building shelter and collecting food and water for the himself and the PCs. The PCs would likely appreciate food and water waiting for them when they come back (in character) even if the players themselves don't think much of it.
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Hi!
I have a game coming up in which I am to DM. For story purposes, I'd like to have an NPC which is dying, but can not be saved by the level 9 druid or cleric, or any of the other classes which may turn up.
What kind of things can people in the Pathfinder world not be healed from?
(The scenario is that the party was aboard a ship that sunk, and they, along with some of the other passengers and crew, have washed up on an island and the objective is to get back to civilization - or at least off of the island.
One of the other passengers who washed up with them is dying, beyond hope of saving. The party does not know it, but they are being watched by a "Robinson Crusoe"-like figure, and how they handle the situation with this dying adventurer may determine how much he trusts them.)
I don't want the NPC to be saved, as I generally dislike having NPCs tag along with the party.
Thanks in advance for any advice!
Have the PC's be out of spells and without gear in the aftermath of the shipwreck, when they have this encounter.
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How about having the NPC afflicted with a corruption, from horror adventures? The NPC failed the third saving through to resist the corruption's advancement and are dying from it. Most corruptions end with the afflicted being turned into evil NPCs, but a few end with death. Lich ends with the afflicted dying and having their soul consumed by the negative energy plane (so no resurrections), and hive ends with the afflicted being devoured from the inside by zerglings.
You could pretty easily make up a different flavor of corruption that ALSO ends in death (preferably horrible death).
Corruptions are also beyond the spells of the party to reverse. In fact, if you say that the NPC has already failed the third save, I don't think there IS a way to save them, except for probably wish and miracle.
Plus, corruptions can be more story driven than diseases or curses. Heck, you could afflict a PC with the corruption when they attempt to save the NPC, if you wish.
Have the NPC be constitution drained to zero, kept alive only by a temporary ability boost such as Bear's Endurance. When the boost runs out, the NPC dies.
Have the material components for Restoration, Reincarnate and Raise Dead be unavailable on the island.
Psionic/telepathic parasite whose presence kills off the victim by draining the INT. Very hard to detect or kill, since it lives within the body, and fatal due to death by stat drain.
With antimagic laced poison, which foils magical healing. Could be cured with the right antidote, but who knows what that is or can make it?
An exotic chronic disease that goes acute over time, and which is only put dormant by healing magic, but not removed (think like malaria here).
He is actually a were creature, of the fish or bird family, who is going through his transformation for the first time. That appears to be a painful disease or poison to others, until he changes shape and takes off (or goes under the waves). For obvious reasons not readily curable either.
The soul of the dead man is not willing to return, foiling all raising and reincarnation magic automatically. The players can only speculate about his reasons, but they can't do anything about it. Maybe he thinks he is finally with his dead family together, maybe he has sold his soul, maybe it *is* better on the other side, or he is really afraid of what will happen on this side, if he returns.
Con-Drain-bleed - an effect that causes increasing Constitution Drain over time. Restoration can postpone death (at high material cost), but nothing short of a Level 7 spell can stop it.
Con-Drain-bleed - an effect that causes increasing Constitution Drain over time. Restoration can postpone death (at high material cost), but nothing short of a Level 7 spell can stop it.
Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage).
Any healing at all stops bleed. Even ability bleed.
There are rules for magic-resistant diseases, so just pick your favorite disease and apply this template:
Cure:The disease is particularly difficult to remove using magic.
Remove disease can’t cure the disease, and even more powerful spells such as heal require a successful caster level check with a – 10 penalty (DC = the disease’s save DC) to remove the disease.
Special: The disease responds violently to any attempts to heal it using magic. Whenever the diseased creature is subject to a spell or ability that cures diseases, it must succeed at a Fortitude save or suffer the disease’s effect. This does not reset the disease’s frequency, and succeeding at this check does not count toward the number of consecutive saves required to be cured of the disease.
9th level characters won't have access to Heal (it's a 6th level spell, cleric gets it at 11). But if you're worried about that you can bump up the DC with some other templates (these are in Horror Adventures.)
2 things
Death can only be reversed with the consent of the target. Most NPCs can be assumed to want to go on to their final reward.
Nothing stopping you asking for a heal/know religion/something appropriate skill check to give players the heads up that whatever is wrong goes beyond hit point damage and cannot be healed.
There is no harm in story effects that only affect NPCs.
The NPC has a history of literally cheating death. As such, certain Extraplanar's that would make sense as creatures that would come and collect:
- A squad of four Vanth Psychopomps, led by a Shoki Psychopomp (if you wanted to give the party a chance to postpone the death, but make it a legitimate challenge.)
- An Inevitable Marut or a Lesser Death under an epic-level Geas would in turn be more or less unstoppable. You could even have the party race against time to get the information they need from the person in question, trying to slow the collector's approach.
What kind of things can people in the Pathfinder world not be healed from?
I think in this instance you might be asking the wrong question. 9th level druids and clerics can do almost anything in the way of healing (if they have the proper spells memorized).
What you may want to be asking is 'How can this NPC die without the characters realizing he is in danger and wanting to heal him/her?'.
One suggestion could be that he has internal bleeding from the shipwreck and dies after he finishes whatever message he needs to deliver. He would look pale and tired after being found on the beach and would be sore and too exhausted to move much (all normal for being shipwrecked) but internal bleeding is something easily missed even with modern scientific methods of medical treatment.
Or he has a massive bleeding wound on his/her back that bleeds out into the sand under him/her and is not noticed until it is too late. The blood would seep straight down into the sand and not spread like it would on a solid surface.
So the characters could think he is ok until he bites it.
If they try to raise dead simply have him refuse to return. Who would want to come back alive on a deserted island when they could enjoy their afterlife.
Also note: raise dead/resurrection/reincarnation only work if the target of the spell is willing to come back. The NPC may figure that, their job done with the delivery of the message, they don't have to come back.
He's already dead, there's a message in a bottle next to him.
What kind of things can people in the Pathfinder world not be healed from?I think in this instance you might be asking the wrong question. 9th level druids and clerics can do almost anything in the way of healing (if they have the proper spells memorized).
What you may want to be asking is 'How can this NPC die without the characters realizing he is in danger and wanting to heal him/her?'.
One suggestion could be that he has internal bleeding from the shipwreck and dies after he finishes whatever message he needs to deliver. He would look pale and tired after being found on the beach and would be sore and too exhausted to move much (all normal for being shipwrecked) but internal bleeding is something easily missed even with modern scientific methods of medical treatment.
Or he has a massive bleeding wound on his/her back that bleeds out into the sand under him/her and is not noticed until it is too late. The blood would seep straight down into the sand and not spread like it would on a solid surface.
So the characters could think he is ok until he bites it.
If they try to raise dead simply have him refuse to return. Who would want to come back alive on a deserted island when they could enjoy their afterlife.
I really like this solution. Personally I like keeping things simple.
The 'dying words' quest is very hard to pull off in most cases. {. . .}
Reign of Winter seems to have one . . . .
The 'dying words' quest is very hard to pull off in most cases. {. . .}Reign of Winter seems to have one . . . .
One of the most blatant railroads ever!
I'm playing through Reign of Winter so I'm trying not to get any spoilers but I know about the parts I've already played (I've just finished the third book).Fortunately my wonderful GM fixed the dying words thing and corrected that issue but I really dislike the way it's originally written.
a character the players won't heal?
pathfinder got an easy way to do it for you
have him be a pure legion enforcer veteran.(they are said to patrol the land AND sea) he get a bonus for saves vs ALL divine spells (and MUST save vs them) and if he's 10th level he also get a spell resistance for it also must use.
now all you need to do is make him waste his last godless healing and then take a bleeding wound(maybe magical so heal wont help)
dying words? can be something about how he doesn't give a @#$% about the gods (maybe laying it down on the god of storms for killing him "Gozreh? your just a pirate, going around drowning people...")
Con-Drain-bleed - an effect that causes increasing Constitution Drain over time. Restoration can postpone death (at high material cost), but nothing short of a Level 7 spell can stop it.Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage).Any healing at all stops bleed. Even ability bleed.
It says a DC 15 Heal check heals ability-damage bleed. It doesn't say it stops ability-drain bleed. (I'm not sure if there is any way of getting ability-drain bleed in the normal rules, let alone curing it.)
WHAT CAN NOT BE HEALED?
Pride.
You might also make it a disease-like curse similar to mummy's rot.
One of the most blatant railroads ever!
I'm playing through Reign of Winter so I'm trying not to get any spoilers but I know about the parts I've already played (I've just finished the third book).
Fortunately my wonderful GM fixed the dying words thing and corrected that issue but I really dislike the way it's originally written.
You're really not gonna be able to kill this NPC without cheating the PC's somehow; 9th level is getting to that point where anything can be solved with magic, and if the PC's are really committed to saving this NPC, the resources needed are available to save him - end of story. You won't stop them from doing it without being forced to say "You can't save him. Because I said so." Which won't go over well for most groups.
The only scenario I can think of that could skate past this is to say the players lost a lot of their casting components in the wreck. This will limit what spells they can cast. Unfortunately, Cure spells, Remove Disease, and Remove Curse all only require Verbal and Somatic components. However, that sill removes Restoration (100G-1000G in diamond dust, though Lesser Resto is still just Verbal and Somatic) and Delay/Neutralize Poison spells (Divine Focus). It might be a bit heavy-handed, but if you make the NPC's malady a slow-acting poison, you pretty much have them if you take away their Divine Focuses. Your PC's may still be a bit peeved that you did that, but you could at least then make it the theme of the adventure (make it without your Divine Focuses for a while), which is a lot less "Your efforts are in vein. Because I said so", and a lot more "You have a handicap. Because I said so". The latter lets you accomplish the same goal without the PC's feeling like their characters have no agency; now it's just an unusual challenge they need to overcome, which just happens to also cause the unavoidable death of the NPC...And oops, no Reincarnate or Raise Dead without Divine Focuses, either.
You're really not gonna be able to kill this NPC without cheating the PC's somehow; 9th level is getting to that point where anything can be solved with magic, and if the PC's are really committed to saving this NPC, the resources needed are available to save him - end of story. You won't stop them from doing it without being forced to say "You can't save him. Because I said so." Which won't go over well for most groups.
The only scenario I can think of that could skate past this is to say the players lost a lot of their casting components in the wreck. This will limit what spells they can cast. Unfortunately, Cure spells, Remove Disease, and Remove Curse all only require Verbal and Somatic components. However, that sill removes Restoration (100G-1000G in diamond dust, though Lesser Resto is still just Verbal and Somatic) and Delay/Neutralize Poison spells (Divine Focus). It might be a bit heavy-handed, but if you make the NPC's malady a slow-acting poison, you pretty much have them if you take away their Divine Focuses. Your PC's may still be a bit peeved that you did that, but you could at least then make it the theme of the adventure (make it without your Divine Focuses for a while), which is a lot less "Your efforts are in vein. Because I said so", and a lot more "You have a handicap. Because I said so". The latter lets you accomplish the same goal without the PC's feeling like their characters have no agency; now it's just an unusual challenge they need to overcome, which just happens to also cause the unavoidable death of the NPC...And oops, no Reincarnate or Raise Dead without Divine Focuses, either.
Even more difficult to reconcile this if they have a tattoo or other class feature that acts as a DF.
I'm really not sure how best you can do this, ultimately - a desert island (without a lot of mitigating factors) just isn't the same challenge to level 9 PCs as it is to those at levels 1-4.
One of the most blatant railroads ever!
I'm playing through Reign of Winter so I'm trying not to get any spoilers but I know about the parts I've already played (I've just finished the third book).
Fortunately my wonderful GM fixed the dying words thing and corrected that issue but I really dislike the way it's originally written.** spoiler omitted **
What made the whole scene great was indeed that we were not only able to take decissions but also the morality of the characters was being tested. We had a neutral follower of an evil godess with us, a couple of good characters and my character: a neutral witch struggling to understand what is that abstract concept called good. It was a hard decission to take and changed everything from a railroad to a hard free-willed decission.
So I suggest you go for something like that for your game.By the way, I'm curious about what you are going to do with your scene so don't forget to tell us when you have GMed your scene to your players!
You might also make it a disease-like curse similar to mummy's rot.
That was my first idea. Cursed diseases like mummy's rot or lycanthropy require a specific set of spells cast in the right sequence, which the PCs might not be aware of or have access to. Feel free to make up something exotic. Magic is magic, eh?
Or just have the guy be already dead of old age. Now they are forced to use "speak with dead" to get the bugger's last words. Or, have his priest/best friend/old nurse tell the PCs what the bugger said before death. Sure, they could try to raise or resurrect him, but he might well not be willing, effectively blocking those spells.
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Another avenue to take is to instead funnel the PC's resources somewhere else. The NPC needs a Remove Disease spell? That's a real shame, because this other factor over here is costing the PC's a vast majority of their 3rd level and higher spells per day. That other factor, or factors would need to be an immediate and critical priority to make sure the PC's would be fools to waste a 3rd level spell slot on the NPC's Disease. The downside to this is needing to predict the PC's ability to manage resources. If they can deal with whatever is supposed to be occupying them more efficiently than you planned, they might still have the ability to save the NPC. If you overestimate their abilities, though you could take it too far and now the PC's are in a worse spot than before and now the NPC isn't even part of the picture.
Honestly, I think your best shot is to make it a challenge to save the NPC, but ultimately, if they do, let them. Who knows? Maybe this NPC could turn into someone special. I made a Rogue NPC intended to just be a grave robber encounter once. He was supposed to get the drop on the PC's, fight them, and ultimately die. Instead, the PC's managed to get the drop on him, opening dialogue, and the Rogue managed to talk his way out of getting killed. The PC's eventually came to like him, and he became a permanent addition to the group. His name was Clint Driftwood.
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Honestly, I think your best shot is to make it a challenge to save the NPC, but ultimately, if they do, let them. Who knows? Maybe this NPC could turn into someone special.
I also think that's the best thing to do. If the players go out of their way and put a lot of effort only to save that character, that is also a good way for your NPC to measure their morality.
In a game I was in, I was able to save a NPC with great risks and sacrifices from my character. When we finished the adventure, the DM told me that the NPC was not supposed to have a happy ending, probably not even survive. Even though we saved the world from an apocalypse, saving that NPC is one of the most memorables things I remember.