Power attack

[Fireflash51]

I like the combat actions that fighters get at higher levels but some of the lower ones don't seem worthwhile at all, power attack being the most noticeable one.

As mentionned in other threads by various people, power attack ranges from bad to barely ok depending on the situation if you compare the tradeoff vs doing 2 strikes instead. Also I don't think the mechanic really fits the fantasy of a power attack.

So how woud people like power attack to be designed?

Personally I think that if it's gonna have the same name as in PF1 it should be closer to the spirit of the original ability but a still fit in the design style of PF2.

So for me it would be a tradeoff of damage at the cost of accuracy. Obviously I have no idea right now what would be the proper number tuning, just throwing a general idea.

1 action - Power Attack
Traits: Fighter, Open
Make a melee Strike. It gains the following enhancement.
Enhancement: Your strike deals an additional damage bonus equal to your strenght modifier. This strike and any other strikes this
turn receive a -2 penality to hit. Your other strikes do not benefit from the damage bonus.

[Lavieh]

I think just removing the "It counts as two attacks" verbage on power attack would fix it.

[Mergy]

The biggest problem with 2E Power Attack is the name. It's basically Vital Strike, so that's what it should have been called.

[Groundhog]

The biggest problem isn't the name : it's that it is a trap option in almost all cases.

[Chess Pwn]

I'm still confused on it how it interacts with magic weapons. Is a power attack with a +1 greatsword 3d12 or 4d12? Cause one of these options is a lot better than the other but I'm not sure which is right and which is what people are using to say it's bad.

[Kodyboy]

Lavieh wrote:

I think just removing the "It counts as two attacks" verbage on power attack would fix it.

Yep making it one action would fix it.

[Fireflash51]

Chess Pwn wrote:

I'm still confused on it how it interacts with magic weapons. Is a power attack with a +1 greatsword 3d12 or 4d12? Cause one of these options is a lot better than the other but I'm not sure which is right and which is what people are using to say it's bad.

It adds only one dice no matter the magic bonus on your weapon. 2 die at level 10+. So yes, it gets worse as your weapon gets more powerful.

[Groundhog]

Chess Pwn wrote:

I'm still confused on it how it interacts with magic weapons. Is a power attack with a +1 greatsword 3d12 or 4d12? Cause one of these options is a lot better than the other but I'm not sure which is right and which is what people are using to say it's bad.

Considering that both count as two strikes for the purpose of the multiple attack penalty, and take two actions to boot, it is either just slightly worse than attacking twice normally, or completely horrendous depending.

If the generous interpretation is correct, it becomes passable once it applies 2 dice.

[Chess Pwn]

Groundhog wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

I'm still confused on it how it interacts with magic weapons. Is a power attack with a +1 greatsword 3d12 or 4d12? Cause one of these options is a lot better than the other but I'm not sure which is right and which is what people are using to say it's bad.

Considering that both count as two strikes for the purpose of the multiple attack penalty, and take two actions to boot, it is either just slightly worse than attacking twice normally, or completely horrendous depending.

If the generous interpretation is correct, it becomes passable once it applies 2 dice.

Exactly, that's why I'm curious which it is. If it's just the slightly worse option then I can be okay with a slight decrease to play the one big hitter plan I have. If it's just the one die then it's a tough call if I can get by doing it anyways and not feel too weak.

[JoelF847]

The sentence order is confusing. Last sentence about counting as two attacks for multiple attack penalty should be before the conditional if you’re at least 10th level - to make it clear that it applies to all uses of power attack. Or it should be in the same conditional sentence to make it clear it only applies if you’re 10th level or higher.

[Previloc]

I found Power Attack relatively good at low levels (on par with Double Slice) 2d12 at your full attack, every round is significant against high AC targets. Ironically, it is effectively the opposite of the classical definition (this is better to-hit for slightly less damage for the same actions).

I could see it using up your Reaction instead of a 2nd action (no time for AoO, and limits it to 1/r...that's thematic).

Accellerating extra dice would address high levels - +1, +1 per 5 levels.

I would rather add in multiples of your Strength modifier than double damage dice, since I was thinking of a Cleric mc-Fighter with Magic Weapon and Zeal (6d12 might be a bit much, particularly if we throw True Strike into that).

[Ivarrwolfsong]

The easy fix for Power Attack is to keep all its drawbacks but let it do 2x your damage dice + 1x your static bonus which turns it into vital strike.

This way it is one big hit at the cost of a second action and a bigger MAP if you attack again.

Let’s look at how it functions now for a 9th level fighter in the play test (18 str, +2 greatsword).

- it has the “open” tag so it needs to be your first attack for the round.
- the attack cost is 2 actions at -0 MAP
- you get an extra d12 damage, for 4d12+4 averaging 30 dmg
- if you attack again, it is at -10 MAP

If you simply attacked twice, you could do
- attack 1 (-0 MAP) 3d12+4 average 23.5
- attack 2 (-5 MAP) 3d12+4 average 23.5
- if both hit, average damage is 47 damage.

Even if you tally the damage as only hitting 2x every other round you STILL do more damage ... we will use 4 rounds as an example:

-4 rounds of Power Attack: 30+30+30+30=*120*

-4 rounds of attacking twice, missing 1x/2rounds: 47+23.5+47+23.5=*141*

So currently, you spend a feat to do less damage.

IF INSTEAD, we take the current Power Attack, warts and all, and simply double the damage dice we end up with one attack doing 6d12+4, averaging 43.

This is still less than 2 successful attacks, which is fitting since 2 attacks would have a -5 MAP on the 2nd swing. However, it’s significantly better than the current “anti-feat” that exists. After all, you are restricted by the “open” tag, the lesser flexibility of using 2 actions as 1 action, and you have to spend a feat on it. It should give SOME benefit, right?

[master_marshmallow]

Ivarrwolfsong wrote:

The easy fix for Power Attack is to keep all its drawbacks but let it do 2x your damage dice + 1x your static bonus which turns it into vital strike.

This way it is one big hit at the cost of a second action and a bigger MAP if you attack again.

Let’s look at how it functions now for a 9th level fighter in the play test (18 str, +2 greatsword).

- it has the “open” tag so it needs to be your first attack for the round.
- the attack cost is 2 actions at -0 MAP
- you get an extra d12 damage, for 4d12+4 averaging 30 dmg
- if you attack again, it is at -10 MAP

If you simply attacked twice, you could do
- attack 1 (-0 MAP) 3d12+4 average 23.5
- attack 2 (-5 MAP) 3d12+4 average 23.5
- if both hit, average damage is 47 damage.

Even if you tally the damage as only hitting 2x every other round you STILL do more damage ... we will use 4 rounds as an example:

-4 rounds of Power Attack: 30+30+30+30=*120*

-4 rounds of attacking twice, missing 1x/2rounds: 47+23.5+47+23.5=*141*

So currently, you spend a feat to do less damage.

IF INSTEAD, we take the current Power Attack, warts and all, and simply double the damage dice we end up with one attack doing 6d12+4, averaging 43.

This is still less than 2 successful attacks, which is fitting since 2 attacks would have a -5 MAP on the 2nd swing. However, it’s significantly better than the current “anti-feat” that exists. After all, you are restricted by the “open” tag, the lesser flexibility of using 2 actions as 1 action, and you have to spend a feat on it. It should give SOME benefit, right?

This was one of my solutions as well, but I want to be clear about how it would interact with crits.

[Draco18s]

Previloc wrote:

I found Power Attack relatively good at low levels (on par with Double Slice) 2d12 at your full attack, every round is significant against high AC targets.

Well yes, those are the levels when you don't have magic items. As soon as you have a +1 weapon, Power Attack is literally worse in every case than attacking twice.