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I recognize the value of having Fighters in my group of friends... friends that help prevent me from getting beaten down, preferably by imposing themselves between the threat and I. Often and without fail.
They are reliable, and when they engage into their groove, they can cast "Sword" more often than I have spell slots.
What makes the fighter better at doing that then other martials (or even most medium BAB classes, wildshape druids or melee clerics)?
Also, "often and without fail" is only true if you heal him up afterwards. Without a magic user's wand/channel/whatever, the fighter will run out of hip points sooner than you running out of spells.
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yes paizo will release more stuff for martials to pull from then they will proceed to nerf them to the ground after seeing how popular they are with martials cuz martials cant have nice things.
I think more at issue is that Paizo will release a bunch more stuff for martials, and all the Paladins, Rangers, UnMonks, Barbarians, Bloodragers, etc. will make great strides with them. One of the problems is that it's hard to give stuff to fighters without also giving it to other classes with a better chassis. You have the "weapon specialization" rider where it requires fighter levels, until the magus gets to take it too. You can make it require a *whole lot* of feats, and then the fighter might not take it because of the oportunity cost, or you can make it key on weapon training (and then the swashbucklers of the world will be sad that their weapon training doesn't count, and wonder when they can get nice things.)
If I need a speedbump I'll buy a trained combat animal or roll a druid. That way my "fighter" has pounce and multiple swings that might actually hit. Oh, and if they eat it, the raise spells are cheaper.
And occasionally Mr Bitey likes to snuggle. Fringe benefit.
Have fun with Mr. Bitey, but I'll guarantee my fighters do a far better job.
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I play Mages, Arcane and Divine. I recognize the value of having Fighters in my group of friends... friends that help prevent me from getting beaten down, preferably by imposing themselves between the threat and I. Often and without fail.
shoulda been a cleric, not onyl can he tank but he can wub healing constantly for no real reason. and like make guys fight each other and stuff.
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Have fun with Mr. Bitey, but I'll guarantee my fighters do a far better job.If I need a speedbump I'll buy a trained combat animal or roll a druid. That way my "fighter" has pounce and multiple swings that might actually hit. Oh, and if they eat it, the raise spells are cheaper.
And occasionally Mr Bitey likes to snuggle. Fringe benefit.
in what way is your fighter better at snuggling... :I
Even if your fighter is better at fighting than my class feature, my class feature is the superior choice because your fighter (and this has been true of every single fighter ever put in front of me over 15 years of playing D&D 3.x and Pathfinder) is in no way as useful as what could've replaced your fighter in your player slot. If I can have 75% of a fighter and a full caster or a 2/3 caster with 4-6 skill points per level versus your fighter, I would rather not take your fighter 99.9% of the time.
No skill points, no magic, no ability to interact with anything beyond "swing sword, survive the experience." Literally no better than a trained dog.
And the dog cuddles and plays fetch.
I mean, til the time comes to sunder or steal the casters spell component pouch in order to limit the things they can cast, or open a door. No skill points? 2 feats = level X4 skill points. Skill points = able to interact.
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For intelligent antagonists, I generally make their tactics at least as savvy as that of the PCs. For groups of PCs who regularly decide "kill the guy in robes before he can cast something" I figure that reciprocating on the part of worthy antagonists is wholly reasonable. The game rules dictate, in part, the physics of the setting so from a simulationist perspective evil adventurers would realize how dangerous unmolested mages are just like good ones would.
But the real way to keep casters in check is to absolutely not allow 15-minute adventuring days. I keep healing cheap and readily available (in loot piles and the like), but try to make sure 6-level casters always run out of spells and 9th level casters usually do before the day is done.
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Sundering a spell component pouch seems like a long shot. Even if the spellcaster has only one, most spells don't have material components. Forcing them to use spells with only verbal and somatic components isn't much of a restriction.
But sure, let's say the GM's more likely to specifically try maneuvering against spell component pouches because he has recognized letting casters cast is far more dangerous than letting fighters fight much of the time.I'm just wondering, who does this?
It feels like a very hostile thing to do.
GM's playing genius level intelligence antagonists?
And if you think not many spells require foci or material components I encourage you to take a long hard look at the spell lists. Summon monster spells out of the gate, require a focus, which is in the spell component pouch. Haste and slow, stinking cloud, tons of spells listed in any guide you care to look at as strong choices for any build require material components.
Also, i hope your mage didn't dump strength (i've seen a lot of 7str mage builds) since each of those component pouches you're carrying is 2 lb
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For intelligent antagonists, I generally make their tactics at least as savvy as that of the PCs. For groups of PCs who regularly decide "kill the guy in robes before he can cast something"So you're saying even the players realize the casters are the greater threat. Such a lovely balanced game we're playing.
3.5 was not well balanced. Pathfinder is not well balanced. That's why I find it's less fun to play it at the extreme edge of optimization and more fun to run it mellower, but if the players want to play "shoot the mage first" they should expect the smarter antagonists to reciprocate.
It's a behavior learned from Exalted 2e, where on the extreme end it was a battle of metacurrency attrition where your instant-kill never-miss attack could only be stopped by my stop-anything defense and vice versa, and the winner of the fight was the one ran out of resources last. Players quickly find out that playing that way gets old, so they calm down and worry more about characters and less about mechanics.
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(My take)
- Missing skills, like Perception... especially when you use the Fighter for guards that aren't good as scouting...
- Missing skill points; if d4 for hit points have been done with, so should 2 + int mod.
- Negligible bonuses for Bravery; too low for a bonus, ONLY on fear effects, doesn't do much to compensate a low Will save.
- Redundancy for Weapon Training; what's the point of learning 4 weapon groups when you're only going to use 2 at most? It doesn't help that if a weapon is classified in several groups, the bonuses don't stack...
- The archetypes almost make the original class a joke; each archetype offers a specialization, but that specialization isn't available by all means for the original class.
- Gear-dependant; perhaps more than any other class, as many of the fighter's features rely on its gear, be weapons or armors. At least I can still sneak with a rogue or cast spells with a wizard.
- No benefit from the combat feats; being a fighter doesn't add anything to the combat feats, like a bonus or something.
THE MARAUDER v2
The marauder strikes with heavy melee attacks while being able to take a lot of punishment. Later on, it moves to improve its ability to stop missiles, dodge magical effects, keep enemies in range and harry spellcasters.
Archetype: Invulnerable Rager
Race: Human
Attributes at creation: STR 16+2 / DEX 15 / CON 14 / INT 12 / WIS 10 / CHA 7
Traits: Deft Dodger (+1 Reflex saves), Indomitable Faith (+1 Will saves)
Feats and Progression:
Feat: Power Attack; Human Bonus Feat: Iron Will
Rage power: Superstition
Feat: Step up
Rage power: Lesser Beast Totem; Pip: +1 DEX
Feat: Martial Focus
Rage power: Beast Totem
Feat: Combat Reflexes
Rage power: Disruptive; Pip: +1 STR
Feat: Cut from the Air
Rage power: Greater Beast Totem
Feat: Extra Rage Power (Eater of Magic)
Rage power:Spellbreaker; Pip: +1 STR
Equipment Suggestions:, Belt of Physical Perfection, Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Buffering Cap, +2 ghost-touch Mithral Breastplate, +2 Furious Greataxe.
I have 10,450 gp leftover of my 76,000 available
HP 128 includes 3 fcb or 164 while raging
Saves 11/9/9 or 22/17/17 while raging, superstition FCBx9
AC = 26 or 24 while raging, DR 6/- Fire resist 3 and free endure elements heat
Raging attack +2 Furious greataxe +25/+20/+15 1d12+18 20/3 DPR against CR 12 is 56.6
Raging PA +21/+16/+11 1d12+30 DPR against CR 12 is 60.2
skills
6 per level, always
Skills are perception, climb, sense motive, survival, and 24 points
So let’s see; Vastly better saves, Quite better damage, equal AC and lots more HP in combat and I have pounce. More HP and better AC, but a little lower saves out of combat. Equal skills but little better wis based skills. With a less expensive build. With 40ft movespeed.
This to me seems better
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And if you think not many spells require foci or material components I encourage you to take a long hard look at the spell lists. Summon monster spells out of the gate, require a focus, which is in the spell component pouch. Haste and slow, stinking cloud, tons of spells listed in any guide you care to look at as strong choices for any build require material components.
The spells with material components tend to be the old stand-bys that have hung around since AD&D, which might well be the first to spring to your mind. By the time you're close enough to sunder a wizard's spell component pouch they're more likely to be casting mirror image, dimension door or a touch attack spell than to spend a round casting summon monster though. Haste & slow aren't what I'd cast in that situation either and stinking cloud wants a bit more room usually too.
Even if only by accident most sorcerers & wizards will have some spells without foci/material components - and the default sorcerer has eschew materials. Clerics & other divine casters are almost required to have spells without material components, most of their spells have none, and carrying a second holy symbol neither costs nor weighs anything.
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The whole "hit the guy in robes" also doesn't work on all caster. What about Bards and Summoners in mithral breastplate? Clerics, Druids and Skalds already start in medium armor. Also, what if it's a Witch that can use hexes to complement the spells without material or focus components? Does Disguise Self to look like and archer make the wizard immune to aggro? Can I make most enemies waste their first attack by taking Eschew Materials and wearing a dummy SCP?
Yes, intelligent creatures should generally focus on squishier targets, but that's presuming they can. There's a reason battlefield controll spells are widely considered the best combat spells in the game. Walls, Pits, Difficult Terrain... not to talk about summoned monsters or simply the party's frontline blocking the way. Oh, and of course, presuming the clothie isn't simply flying. Or invisible. Or flying and invisible.
And what does this has to do with Fighters lacking reasons to pick them over Barbarians, Rangers, Vigilantes etc.?
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Viziers (mesmerist archetype) would love messing with NPC's who are smart enough to tell their minions to attack the mage first.
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Why is moving+full attack such a bad idea?
I don't get it honestly. A Wizard can basically nullify entire armies with 1 area spell, but god forbids a fighter moves and full attack all on the same round, it makes no sense.
THIS. I can't just over-say this enough...
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Pummeling Charge for fighters would be something that fixes a big 3.x problem.
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Pummeling Charge for fighters would be something that fixes a big 3.x problem.
That, or you give the fighter a new feature that let him make a single attack, but that deals his weapon x his level.
Vital Strike 2.0
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IMHO, if you want to bring the fighter to the light, a full attack sequence with iteratives as a standard action and a full attack at full BAB for all attacks as a complex action at level 6 will be a good point, 4 skills points, a better choice of skills, and at last, make spellcasting a full round action (no move, no swift) quicken spell make it a standard action.. "duck for cover...."
Also, this system lets you move and attack twice, or move and attack four times if you have the TWF feats...
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Hypothetically if the fighter were changed to have 6+INT skills/level with good saves in Will and Fortitude, would it be a good class?
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IMHO, if you want to bring the fighter to the light, a full attack sequence with iteratives as a standard action and a full attack at full BAB for all attacks as a complex action at level 6 will be a good point, 4 skills points, a better choice of skills, and at last, make spellcasting a full round action (no move, no swift) quicken spell make it a standard action.. "duck for cover...."Also, this system lets you move and attack twice, or move and attack four times if you have the TWF feats...
We've learned itt that the variant systems officially published by Paizo are the same thing as making up your own rules and house ruling everything because all options must be compared to PFS legality because all players abide by PFS rules.
You're not wrong, but apparently that book exists for no reason and it's a waste of time and money to acknowledge it, as far as this thread's rhetoric is concerned.
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Hypothetically if the fighter were changed to have 6+INT skills/level with good saves in Will and Fortitude, would it be a good class?
It would have more options. Stealth/Acrobatics/Perception/Diplomacy/Sense motive becomes something possible.
You still can't get around about move/attack, unless you find some form of pounce or some Mount that actually scales with you.I mean a Ranger at level 10 can qualify for a feat that requires you 14 ranks in Ride, so you can only take this feat at level 15 minimum if you're a fighter.
That's the whole issue. You can have 1 billion feats, but if other classes can just get them faster, with no prerequisites or their classes count as both fighter/monk/ranger/caster level, all those feats mean nothing.
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Hypothetically if the fighter were changed to have 6+INT skills/level with good saves in Will and Fortitude, would it be a good class?
That's really not a fair question, since in this thread we've been told that multiple weapon groups are redundant and useless class features beyond the first or second, and we have also been told that being able to trade those useless weapon groups to get exactly what you're asking for is not fair to the fighter's player because he has to trade his class feature which is apparently both sacred and inalienable and useless is a travesty.
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Hypothetically if the fighter were changed to have 6+INT skills/level with good saves in Will and Fortitude, would it be a good class?That's really not a fair question, since in this thread we've been told that multiple weapon groups are redundant and useless class features beyond the first or second, and we have also been told that being able to trade those useless weapon groups to get exactly what you're asking for is not fair to the fighter's player because he has to trade his class feature which is apparently both sacred and inalienable and useless is a travesty.
That's not true. While Multiple weapon training is not that great. Trading those for bonuses to stuff is great. But only getting 1 free AWT at lv9 through lv12 means that a lot of play, and potentially the entire campaign, has 0 or 1 free AWT. Making the other option of using feats to get them, but now you're trading your big draw of lots of feats to get parity with where other classes are starting out at lv1.
Because starting with 6 skills and good will and THEN being able to boost those would allow a fighter to FOCUS on skills or FOCUS on will save, and not just be playing catch-up.
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That's not true. While Multiple weapon training is not that great. Trading those for bonuses to stuff is great. But only getting 1 free AWT at lv9 through lv12 means that a lot of play, and potentially the entire campaign, has 0 or 1 free AWT. Making the other option of using feats to get them, but now you're trading your big draw of lots of feats to get parity with where other classes are starting out at lv1.
Because starting with 6 skills and good will and THEN being able to boost those would allow a fighter to FOCUS on skills or FOCUS on will save, and not just be playing catch-up.
Emphasis on 'free'?
Feats in general are weak compared with real class features. AWT allows a Fighter to trade feats for a much stronger ability.
Level 5: 1 AWT (-1 bonus feat)
Level 9: 2 AWT
Level 10: 3 AWT (-2 bonus feats)
Level 13: 4 AWT
Level 15: 5 AWT (-3 bonus feats)
Given the relative power of most AWT options compared with individual bonus feats, it's clearly a substantial net buff of the Fighter's ability.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind giving the Fighter more skill points. But for anyone building a Fighter with AWTs allowed, you'd be nuts to not have 3 AWTs by level 12.
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Hypothetically if the fighter were changed to have 6+INT skills/level with good saves in Will and Fortitude, would it be a good class?That's really not a fair question, since in this thread we've been told that multiple weapon groups are redundant and useless class features beyond the first or second, and we have also been told that being able to trade those useless weapon groups to get exactly what you're asking for is not fair to the fighter's player because he has to trade his class feature which is apparently both sacred and inalienable and useless is a travesty.That's not true. While Multiple weapon training is not that great. Trading those for bonuses to stuff is great. But only getting 1 free AWT at lv9 through lv12 means that a lot of play, and potentially the entire campaign, has 0 or 1 free AWT. Making the other option of using feats to get them, but now you're trading your big draw of lots of feats to get parity with where other classes are starting out at lv1.
Because starting with 6 skills and good will and THEN being able to boost those would allow a fighter to FOCUS on skills or FOCUS on will save, and not just be playing catch-up.
"free" is subjective. Remember there are other options which can add to your potential. I suppose one could call it system mastery and call me out on it, but it's really no different than understanding that Superstition+Beast Totem is the best way to run a barbarian. Warrior Spirit is a solid choice for 9th level, and the Training Property is a valid option for it. Advanced Weapon Training can be accessed this way, as could it with the Barroom Brawler feat (which itself can be augmented with Stamina to be used as a swift action and Fighter's Tactics to be used more times per day). By 10th level you can have your one choice of AWT, which can itself add into choosing more of them on the fly. Schrodinger's fighter is a real possibility if you really want it to be, it's just very resource intensive since you have to own the books that enable it (which is the main problem the class has).
We've been circling around this being a problem the entire thread. It's an option the fighter has, but not one that is widely accepted or universally allowed, but it's there if you want to use it.
Cue the personal attacks.
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And once you cut out schrodinger's fighter then the drop to the next best fighter is pretty big and no longer quite as "fixed". If there's only one way to "fix" the fighter then it's not a fix, it's a bandaid.
Hypothetically if the fighter were changed to have 6+INT skills/level with good saves in Will and Fortitude, would it be a good class?
As others said, better, yes. Good, maybe (stat wise at least, as good as a mundane class can be in this system). But even then, it's a class with a strange set of class features and not a lot of flavor. The end result is, when you have a game buily where everyone can fight, and then one class that's supposed to be "the fightingest" it max a strange balancing conundrum. How much better at fighting should the fighter be? In what contexts? What should he do other than fight?
I think a simple question needs to be answered with one voice: what's wrong with the fighter? Is it combat power (dpr and friends)? Combat versatility (eg multiple combat maneuvers mastered)? Defenses (saves, ac bonuses, etc)? Out of combat versatility? Out of combat power (skills vs spells)?
From my perspective, what the fighter needs is in & out of combat versatility, and more impactful class features. The former can be accomplished by 1) shortening (& strengthening) feat trees, and adding skill points / level (and possibly strengthening skills), and 2) improving class features. Make bravery more meaningful (paladins get fear immunity at 3, why does the fighter have only a +1 to such saves), and make taking multiple weapon trainings more appealing. But, I think such changes would require a new system rather than a "fighter unchained". So for Pathfinder, perhaps the various splat books & an increase of base skill points would be sufficient.
@marshmallow: I dislike versatile training as a way to give fighters skill points. It has an arbitrary restriction based on the weapon trainings you have taken, creates massive power spikes as your character levels & doesn't come online until far too late in the game. It's as if Paizo was trying to give fighters skill points without saying directly "yeah, we know the fighter needs more out of combat utility"
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And once you cut out schrodinger's fighter then the drop to the next best fighter is pretty big and no longer quite as "fixed". If there's only one way to "fix" the fighter then it's not a fix, it's a bandaid.
It really isn't though. There's at least two different ways to access Shrodinger's fighter, so get rid of one (most likely the Training property) and you have the other (Barroom Brawler).
Conjecture: What DM's out there really would ban Barroom Brawler on fighters being able to 1/day gain an AWT they don't have?
Even if you get rid of both of those options which access Shrodinger's fighter, you can still spend resources to shore up your weaknesses that you feel ruin the class. Armed Bravery flat applies to all Will saves, so it's technically better than Improved Bravery. Plus it doesn't have the CHA prereq, but let's look at what non mind-affecting Will Save based threats really hurt the fighter. I mean actually what are they because I can't think of many beyond Channeled Negative Energy. That isn't an AWT option, it's a regular combat feat which can be taken and retrained out later with the fighter's in class retraining ability once you have enough AWT options to take Armed Bravery.
I'm all for getting the fighter more of these options early. In my own fighter fix I used the brawler as a chassis and basically ported over ranger combat styles in place of Brawler's Flurry. In fact, a real 'fighter fix' can easily be done by reversing the Brawler class through an archetype:
Fighter (Brawler Archetype)
Starting Wealth: A Fighter beings with 5d6 x 10 gp (average 175gp.)
Class Skills: A fighter adds Knowledge (engineering) and Survival to his list of class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
Bravery: As the fighter ability in the CRB, gained at 2nd level. This replaces Unarmed Strike.
Combat Stamina: At 1st level, the fighter gains Combat Stamina as a bonus feat. At 4th level, 10th level, and 16th level he gains Extra Stamina as a bonus feat, ignoring its prerequisites.
This replaces Knockout and Brawler's Cunning.
Bonus feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
This replaces the Bonus Combat feats and Brawler's Flurry of the Brawler class.
Armor Training (Ex): As the fighter ability in the CRB. This replaces Maneuver Training.
Weapon Training (Ex): As the fighter ability in the CRB. This is gained at 5th level and increases every 4 levels thereafter. This replaces AC Bonus and Brawler's Strike.
Armor Master (Ex): As the fighter ability in the CRB. This is gained at 19th level and replaces Awesome Blow.
Weapon Master (Ex): As the fighter ability in the CRB. This replaces Improved Awesome Blow.
I think that existing would make a lot of people complain less and I really wanted to see it in Unchained. Feel free to suggest it in home games if you like it.
The marksman uses its great feat selection to improve its ability to shoot from long, medium and close range, while also providing the party with utility through knowledges and combat tricks like the ability to bring down flying targets.
Archetype: Zen Archer Monk
Race: Human
Attributes at creation: STR 15 / DEX 10 / CON 12 / INT 14 / WIS 16+2 / CHA 7
Traits: Wisdom in the Flesh (acrobatics), Deft Dodger (+1 Reflex saves)
Feats and Progression:
Feat: Lightning Reflexes Bonus Feat: Point-Blank Shot, Perfect Strike; Human Bonus Feat: Toughness
Bonus Feat: Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow);
Feat: Deadly Aim; Bonus Feat:Point-Blank Master
Pip: +1 STR
Feat:Deific Obedience (Irori);
Bonus Feat: Improved Precise Shot, Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Feat: Ranged Trip
Pip: +1 WIS
Feat: Ranged Disarm
Bonus Feat: Manyshot
Feat: Clustered Shots
Pip: +1 WIS
Equipment Suggestions: Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Belt of Physical Perfection, Cap of the Free Thinker, Bracers of Archery, Longbow.
HP 99 includes FCB
Saves 10/12/15
AC = 21
attack+2 Adaptive composite longbow +22/+22/+22/+17/+17/+12 1d8+9 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 67.2
DA +21/+21/+16/+11 1d12+21 DPR against CR 12 is 74.4
skills
7 per level, higher knowledge skills.
A little lower damage for slightly better saves. Plus all the monk powers available. Can’t drop targets from the air.
The marksman uses its ability to shoot from range, while also providing the party with utility through knowledges and some spells
Archetype: Wendo Caller Medium
Race: Human
Attributes at creation: STR 13 / DEX 16+2 / CON 12 / INT 14 / WIS 8 / CHA 12
Traits: Deadeye Bowman, Indomitable Faith (+1 Will saves)
Feats and Progression:
Feat: Point-Blank Shot; Human Bonus Feat: Precise Shot
Feat: Rapid Shot
Pip: +1 STR
Feat: Deadly Aim
Feat: Spirit Focus (Champion)
Pip: +1 DEX
Feat: Manyshot;
Feat: Clustered Shots
Pip: +1 DEX
Equipment Suggestions: Headband of alluring charisma +4, Belt of Physical Perfection, Cap of the Free Thinker, Bracers of Archery, Longbow.
You have at least 4 castings of heroism at 2 hours a cast, so it’s assumed up
HP 99 includes FCB
Saves 13/12/10
AC = 23
attack+2 Adaptive composite longbow +24/+24/+24/+19 1d8+12 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 75.6
DA +21/+21/+21/+16 1d8+18 DPR against CR 12 is 84.9
skills
7 per level, higher knowledge skills, higher all skills with heroism
I have overall better saves, better skills, same combat stats and I have spells, plus spirit surge adding 1d8 on a few attack rolls or fort saves. I can also speak with dead, animals, plants, and tongues 12 minutes per day. And kinda a domain thing. But I do take 12 non-lethal damage a day that can’t be healed. Though they can trade the non-lethal damage for a little lower knowledge skills and no domain if you wanted with relic channeler. I don’t do maneuvers at range though.
The marksman uses its great feat selection to improve its ability to shoot from long, medium and close range, while also providing the party with utility through spells and combat tricks like the ability to bring down flying targets.
Archetype: Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest
Race: Human
Attributes at creation: STR 15 / DEX 16+2 / CON 12 / INT 10 / WIS 14 / CHA 7
Traits: Seeker (+1 to Perception, class skill), Fate’s Favored
Feats and Progression:
Feat: Point-Blank Shot; Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus (longbow); Human Bonus Feat: Toughness
Feat: Precise Shot; Bonus Feat: Rapid Shot
Pip: +1 STR
Feat: Deadly Aim; Weapon Training: Bows
Bonus Feat: Weapon Specialization (longbow), Point-Blank Master
Feat: Ranged Trip
Pip: +1 DEX
Feat: Manyshot; Bonus Feat: Ace Trip
Feat: Clustered Shots
Bonus Feat: Improved Precise Shot, Ranged Disarm; Pip: +1 DEX
Equipment Suggestions: Gloves of Dueling, Belt of Physical Perfection, Cap of the Free Thinker, Bracers of Archery; Longbow.
HP 99
Saves 10/10/10
AC = 23
Round1 fervor
attack+2 Adaptive composite longbow +26/+26/+21 1d8+17 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 83.1
DA +23/+23/+18 1d8+23 DPR against CR 12 is 93
Round2 Sacred weapon
attack+5 Adaptive composite longbow +29/+29/+24 1d8+20 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 98.7
DA +26/+26/+21 1d8+26 DPR against CR 12 is 117.9
Round3 War Blessing
skills
3 per level
Instead of knowledge skills I have 4th level cleric spells. Damage is higher and much higher round 2. Saves I have better will but worse ref. Same combat options
The marksman uses its great feat selection to improve its ability to shoot from long, medium and close range, while also providing the party with utility through knowledges, animal companion and spells.
Archetype: Nirmathi Irregular
Race: Human
Attributes at creation: STR 15 / DEX 16+2 / CON 12 / INT 10 / WIS 14 / CHA 7
Traits: Resilient (Fortitude +1), Indomitable Faith (Will +1)
Feats and Progression:
Feat: Point-Blank Shot; Human Bonus Feat: Precise Shot
Bonus Feat: Rapid Shot
Feat: Weapon Focus (longbow)
Pip: +1 STR
Feat:Deadly Aim; Weapon Training: Bows
Bonus Feat: Improved Precise Shot
Feat: Iron Will
Pip: +1 DEX
Feat: Manyshot;
Bonus Feat: Point-Blank Master
Feat: Clustered Shots
Pip: +1 DEX
Equipment Suggestions: Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Belt of Physical Perfection, Cap of the Free Thinker, Bracers of Archery; Longbow.
HP 101 includes FCB
Saves 11/14/11
AC = 23
Hunter’s Howl making anything a FE
attack+2 Adaptive composite longbow +27/+27/+22/+17 1d8+13 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 79.2
DA +23/+23/+18/+13 1d12+21 DPR against CR 12 is 96
skills
7 per level
I have evasion, spells and an animal companion but I can’t do the ranged maneuvers. Heightened Awareness can bridge the knowledge gap from the lower int.
The marksman uses its ability to shoot within 30ft, while also providing the party with utility through knowledges, extracts and sickening hit enemies.
Archetype: Investigator
Race: Human
Attributes at creation: STR 15 / DEX 16+2 / CON 12 / INT 14 / WIS 10 / CHA 7
Traits: Resilient (Fortitude +1), Deadeye Bowman
Feats and Progression:
Feat: Point-Blank Shot; Human Bonus Feat: Precise Shot
Talent: Dex Mutagen; Feat: Rapid Shot
Pip: +1 STR
Talent: Infusion; Feat: Weapon Focus (longbow)
Talent: Quick Study; Feat: Ranged Study
Pip: +1 DEX
Talent: Combat Inspiration; Feat: Manyshot;
Talent: Sickening Offensive; Feat: Deadly Aim
Pip: +1 DEX
Equipment Suggestions: Headband of vast Intelligence +4, Belt of Physical Perfection, Cap of the Free Thinker, Bracers of Archery; Longbow.
Heroism, mutagen and studied combat will be factored in, uses barkskin instead of amulet but that’s not figured in this comparison
HP 87 includes FCB has false life available
Saves 9/16/9 immune to poison
AC = 23
attack+2 Adaptive composite longbow +28/+28/+23 1d8+13 20/x3 DPR against CR 12 is 67.9
DA +25/+25/+20 1d8+21 DPR against CR 12 is 95.6
skills
11 per level and free inspiration for knowledges
So I win on spells, knowledges, damage, skills, and saves. Same AC and lower HP. Instead of bringing fliers down to the ground I pass out extracts and sicken any target I hit that I’ve studied. Must be within 30ft for my big +6 to hit and +6 damage per shot though.
And the arcane bloodrager fills the role of your Marauder as well, look into Enlightened bloodrager too for it depending on preference.
The marksman uses its great feat selection to improve its archery skills; while also providing the party with utility through knowledges, scouting via its familiar, and abilities granted via mutagen.
Fighter (Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior)
Race: Human
STR 15; DEX 16+2; CON 13; INT 12; WIS 12; CHA 07
Traits: Indomitable Faith; Pragmatic Activator; Deadeye Bowman; Vain (Drawback)
Familiar: Sage Archetype
Feats/Progession:
1st-
Feat: Point Blank Shot; Human Bonus Feat: Precise Shot
Class: Familiar
2nd-
Class: Share Training; Steel Will
3rd-
Feat: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Mutagen
4th-
Feat: Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Ability Score: +1 STR
5th-
Feat: Rapid Shot
Class: Weapon Training I (Bows)
6th-
Feat: Deadly Aim
7th-
Feat: Improved Familiar (Imp)
Class: Wings Discovery
8th-
Feat: Clustered Shots
Ability Score: +1 DEX
9th-
Feat: Manyshot
Class: Advanced Weapon Training (Defensive Weapon Training)
10th-
Feat: Point Blank Master
11th-
Feat: Improved Precise Shot
Class: Spontaneous Healing Discovery
12th-
Feat: Improved Critical (Longbow)
Ability Score: +1 DEX
Equipment: Cap of the Free Thinker, Cloak of Resistance (+2), Celestial Armor, Ring of Protection (+1), +2 Adaptive Longbow, Belt of Physical Perfection (+2), plus spend money on Familiar's gear (+1 Longbow, etc), Ring of Evasion
HP: 107 includes FCB
Saves 11/11/8 (+3bonus on Will saves against fear and mind-affecting effects)
AC = 28 [+6 DEX, +9 Armor, +1 Deflection, +2 Shield]
Skills
4 (2+ INT+1 Human) per level plus Sage Familiar (focused on knowledge skills)
I have evasion, i can fly for a good duration, my imp can provide additional firepower and utility (spells and skills), i can make use of magic wands if needed, and i'm a damn fine archer (so is my imp since we share combat feats).