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i heard some one let their player gestalt fighter and rogue and it was still only about t4 in capabilities
Reminds me of the Humanoid class based on the fact the 3.5e monster manual suggested that 4 Humanoid HD = 1 CR.
What feats, specifically, close the utility gap between martials and casters in any meaningful way? Are these feats exclusive to martial characters?
Are they exclusive to martial characters? no, of course not. Other than a half dozen or so fighter specific feats, there aren't feats that are exclusive to martial characters....except for the feats that require high bab. those probably are martial specific.
Consider the opportunity costs of 14 INT instead of 14 WIS, Skill Points instead of HP, Human instead of Dwarf, etc. Plus the Wizard gets exactly as many base skill points as the Fighter, and 99 times out of 100, the Wizard has a higher INT bonus too. Whatever their capabilities, Skills are utterly meaningless as a measure of "leveling the playing field" because both casters and martials get them in basically equal measure, and the best Skill characters all have 3/4 BAB and 2/3 casting anyways.
Since tabletop rpgs are at the character management stage resource allocation scenarios, one should always consider all the costs before expending resources.
I actually use this comparison all the time to show the disparity between the two classes. Who has more ability to influence the campaign world? Consider that the CEO can use his enormous wealth and influence to do a million things the soldier cannot feasibly do, including hire more soldiers. And nothing prevents the CEO from buying a gun.
and nothing the CEO has can stop a trained soldier that wants to kill him from killing him. Like I said, most of the time, the CEO and the soldier operate in two different worlds.
They don't work in the same field because a Fighter has Combat + Skills and a Wizard has Combat + Skills + Utility spells. It frankly boggles me that anyone would put Wizard and Fighter in the same league as "versatility machines". One gets the Wizard Spell List and the other gets Bonus Combat Feats, which ought to be enough on its own to make this not even a debate, but somehow it still keeps happening. And if you're comparing classes via 1v1 cage match, you don't know what the argument is about to begin with.
By what metric should we compare fighters and wizards then? their ability to create magic items? fighters can do that. their knowledge of lore? fighters can hold their own there, too. I know, the ability to cast spells!
Hyperbole, I'll grant, but combat seems the only fair way to compare them. After that, It's just a matter of how the wizard and fighter are built.
This is an absolutely disingenuous comparison to make.
No more so than "All fighters can do is fight!"
"things to do outside of combat" (whatever that frankly nebulous statement means).What... I don't... How can you...
@_@
Pathfinder is not just combat every second. You must know that.
Oh, I do, but saying "be able to do things out of combat" is a nebulous statement. Fighters can breath, sleep, eat, fart, work out, make profession checks, talk to women.
All of those are things that even fighters can do out of combat.
Now do you see what I mean?
Things to do out of combat:
-Seduce the succubus so it doesn't start fighting you and grappling your monk
-Sneak around the guards as not to alert their evil overlord in the tower
-Not drown when you slip off the ship into the rushing river
-Keep an eye out so you don't get jumped by ninja legions
-Travel 100 miles to get to the dwarven city in a day
-Figure out the riddle written in a forgotten language to access a treasure room
-Not freeze to death while you camp outdoors during a snowstorm
-Avoid catching dysentery while trekking through the sewers
-Leap (or fly) over the 100-foot wide chasm
-Stumble around through the artificially magically darkened cavern
-Find out where your nemesis is hiding
-Object strenuously to your friend's conviction in a rigged court case
-Bust the CN Barbarian out of prison because he was convicted of murder
-Save the Cleric from accidentally dying of falling damage
A fighter can do pretty much all of the things you listed there, but here is your list broken down (bold is mine):
Things to do out of combat:
-Seduce the succubus so it doesn't start fighting you and grappling your monk Diplomacy Check
-Sneak around the guards as not to alert their evil overlord in the tower Stealth Check
-Not drown when you slip off the ship into the rushing river Swim Check
-Keep an eye out so you don't get jumped by ninja legions Perception Check
-Travel 100 miles to get to the dwarven city in a day UMD check and a scroll
-Figure out the riddle written in a forgotten language to access a treasure room Linguistics check
-Not freeze to death while you camp outdoors during a snowstorm Endurance feat and fort saves
-Avoid catching dysentery while trekking through the sewers Fort save
-Leap (or fly) over the 100-foot wide chasm Fleet feat 10x + Skill Focus (acrobatics) + boots of striding and springing + max ranks in acrobatics
-Stumble around through the artificially magically darkened cavern acrobatics and blindfighting
-Find out where your nemesis is hiding Knowledge (local) or Diplomacy check to gather information
-Object strenuously to your friend's conviction in a rigged court case Profession (lawyer) check and either Diplomacy or Bluff check
-Bust the CN Barbarian out of prison because he was convicted of murder a crapton of ways to do this, from time and an adamantine weapon, to Disguise, Stealth and Disable Device Checks
-Save the Cleric from accidentally dying of falling damage UMD and a scroll of breath of life or raise dead.
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and nothing the CEO has can stop a trained soldier that wants to kill him from killing him. Like I said, most of the time, the CEO and the soldier operate in two different worlds.
So soldiers are now immune to being mind-controlled, paralysed, put in stasis, having their souls ripped out of their bodies, negative levels, losing half of your action economy permanently, possession, made braindead, coup de grace, killed, imploded, sent to a realm made of fire, angel attacks, the sky raining down destruction, and can kill people that he cannot actually reach?
So soldiers are now immune to being mind-controlled, paralysed, put in stasis, having their souls ripped out of their bodies, negative levels, losing half of your action economy permanently, possession, made braindead, coup de grace, killed, imploded, sent to a realm made of fire, angel attacks, the sky raining down destruction, and can kill people that he cannot actually reach?
Funny, but I don't think there are any CEOs who can do any of those things.
But to answer your hyperbole seriously, almost everything you mentioned there is a saving throw. specifically, being mind controlled (will save), paralysis (fort or will save), losing half your action economy permanently (touch attack and a will save), Having their souls ripped out of their bodies (fort save usually, but I think there is a will save option for this as well), possession (will save), made braindead (will save), Coup de grace (requires the helpless action and a whole host of resistable things that get you to that point), killed (ignoring this, as a wizard who is killed is in the exact same boat), imploded (fort save), sent to a realm made of fire (will save for plane shift, avoiding the gate for gate), angel attacks (soldiers can kill angels, or knock them unconscious), the sky raining down destruction (fight in the shade)
As far as killing people he can not reach, bows have a longer range than most spells do, and a fighter CAN hit a target outside of long range for spells.
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and nothing the CEO has can stop a trained soldier that wants to kill him from killing him. Like I said, most of the time, the CEO and the soldier operate in two different worlds.
That they operate in two different worlds is the whole problem to begin with. They play together in the same party and are presented as being equally valid options for characters at any level, when they really aren't.
The first part of this statement is just plain wrong, it's wrong in its own terms and it's wrong as an analogy. The CEO can take proactive measures to avoid being killed by the soldier: Pay him off to leave him alone, frame him for some wrongdoing so that the authorities arrest him, or send someone to kill him, through overt or indirect means. He also has reactive measures: Security systems and personnel, easy access to a helicopter for escape, or a concealed handgun. On the other hand, the Soldier has a far smaller bank account (read: narrative power) and is relegated almost entirely to direct action.
Likewise, the Wizard has plenty he can do to a Fighter who wants to kill him, and (much like two men with guns at close quarters), whoever wins initiative probably wins the fight—provided the Wizard has no contingencies in place. And if this takes place at mid-high levels the Wizard / CEO made some serious mistakes to let the Fighter / soldier get that close in the first place.
By what metric should we compare fighters and wizards then? their ability to create magic items? fighters can do that. their knowledge of lore? fighters can hold their own there, too. I know, the ability to cast spells!
Now you're getting it; spells are just that important. And again, the Wizard is far more likely to be better at lore than the Fighter (more skill points, more INT). But if you're not just being snarky for its own sake now, classes are best compared through the Same Game Test.
No more so than "All fighters can do is fight!"
Various combat abilities were the only thing the Fighter class granted until very recently, with small band-aids applied through the Weapon/Armor Mastery abilities.
Since I don't really feel like verbally fighting 3-4 people at the same time, let me ask you this: when you think of a fighter, what do you visualize? the common cliche of a armored warrior who runs into the front lines protecting his allies? how about an archer? or an assassin? a diplomat? a gunslinger? a merchant? a priest? a con man?
When I think of a fighter, I see a character who has the capability to do almost whatever it wants, depending on how I want to build it.
Since I don't really feel like verbally fighting 3-4 people at the same time, let me ask you this: when you think of a fighter, what do you visualize? the common cliche of a armored warrior who runs into the front lines protecting his allies? how about an archer? or an assassin? a diplomat? a gunslinger? a merchant? a priest? a con man?
When I think of a fighter, I see a character who has the capability to do almost whatever it wants, depending on how I want to build it.
I visualize a man with a chunk of iron in his hand and no magical abilities whatsoever. He can be skilled, I'll grant you that, but as a mundane man his prowess in any field is still bound by "realism". He lives in a world full of, and ruled by, spellcasters and giant monsters (many of which are also spellcasters or pseudo-casters).
He can also be just a few of the above listed things in his entire life, barring lengthy and expensive (and narratively difficult) retraining. Many of those roles can be filled with skills (which everyone gets, and with which nearly all classes are better than the Fighter), and spells provide a handy and far more customizable shortcut.
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Since I don't really feel like verbally fighting 3-4 people at the same time, let me ask you this: when you think of a fighter, what do you visualize? the common cliche of a armored warrior who runs into the front lines protecting his allies? how about an archer? or an assassin? a diplomat? a gunslinger? a merchant? a priest? a con man?
When I think of a fighter, I see a character who has the capability to do almost whatever it wants, depending on how I want to build it.
You should probably keep in mind that for a fighter "do whatever it wants" tends to boil down to "when not using my bow, do I want to hit that guy with two swords, one really big sword, or this spear?"
For a magic user, "do whatever it wants" includes "build a retirement mansion in my self-made pocket dimension I rule like a god with robotic servants to attend to my needs."
pocket dimensions are so last year, make a moonbase using teleportation and air bubble.
That they operate in two different worlds is the whole problem to begin with. They play together in the same party and are presented as being equally valid options for characters at any level, when they really aren't.
That's not valid. I can build fighters that will likely beat a wizard in initiative and kill him. Granted, how I would build him is not unique to fighters, but it is valid for fighters. Just saying.
The first part of this statement is just plain wrong, it's wrong in its own terms and it's wrong as an analogy. The CEO can take proactive measures to avoid being killed by the soldier: Pay him off to leave him alone, frame him for some wrongdoing so that the authorities arrest him, or send someone to kill him, through overt or indirect means. He also has reactive measures: Security systems and personnel, easy access to a helicopter for escape, or a concealed handgun. On the other hand, the Soldier has a far smaller bank account (read: narrative power) and is relegated almost entirely to direct action.
all of this is classic "money=immortality" fallacy. No one is immune to being murdered. No one. Not presidents, heads of corporations, popes, or heads of multi-national organizations like the red cross.
Further, the idea that a fighter has less access to money discounts that he a) might just be able to make a car bomb, or b) the lack of knowledge or realization that you can buy anti-tank weapons for less than most people pay for a used car.
Likewise, the Wizard has plenty he can do to a Fighter who wants to kill him, and (much like two men with guns at close quarters), whoever wins initiative probably wins the fight—provided the Wizard has no contingencies in place. And if this takes place at mid-high levels the Wizard / CEO made some serious mistakes to let the Fighter / soldier get that close in the first place.
Or the wizard didn't know about the fighter, or didn't notice him until he was stabbing him. It happens. But the argument that the wizard is the only one who has super-awesome contingencies in place is a fallacy too. They get some powerful defensive spells, but at the cost of other equally powerful offensive or utility options.
Now you're getting it; spells are just that important. And again, the Wizard is far more likely to be better at lore than the Fighter (moremaybe the same skill points, probably more INT).
Fixed that for you =)
But if you're not just being snarky for its own sake now, classes are best compared through the Same Game Test.
I looked at your test, and I can easily build a pathfinder fighter who is Wizard balance level. What's your point?
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That they operate in two different worlds is the whole problem to begin with. They play together in the same party and are presented as being equally valid options for characters at any level, when they really aren't.That's not valid. I can build fighters that will likely beat a wizard in initiative and kill him. Granted, how I would build him is not unique to fighters, but it is valid for fighters. Just saying.
wizards do this every morning
1. wake up, put on some clothes2. have breakfast
3. prepare and then cast contact other plane and ask if someone is going to make an attempt on your life in the next week.
4. Then you just handle stuff from there.
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and still not have as any feats as a fighter.
As of level 11, a slayer has 1 less feat than a fighter (due to slayer talents). As of level 20, a wizard has 5 fewer feats, with the benefit of spellcasting. From what I've read a few vigilante talents grant multiple feats for one talent, creating another character with as many feats as a fighter. Feats really aren't the fighter's thing, because everyone gains bonus ones. Unchained rogue gets weapon finesse and their own version of dervish dance, plus supposed feat equivalents through rogue talents at the same rate as fighters. Like, if "bonus feats" are the fighter's shtick, most of the classes in the game have at least half that as part of their features, plus their own features.
I still find it telling that (supposedly) one of the ways to better balance Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition was to take some of their full casters, and multiclass them with martials.
When I think of a fighter, I see a character who has the capability to do almost whatever it wants, depending on how I want to build it.
My problem is you can't do this in a class based system. You cannot. It breaks. You cannot have a series of classes and then a "build your own class" class. It makes no sense. It serves no purpose. You've created a system with classes, so if a character concept can't be done in a class (or a multiclass), you make a new class. You don't leave one out and say "this class's benefit is that you can build it how you want. However, we've taken that as part of its power budget."
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I looked at your test, and I can easily build a pathfinder fighter who is Wizard balance level.No, you can't.
I want you to make a fighter who can reliably topple an entire nationstate and for it to not look like the fighter was involved at all (from the world stage at least).
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That's not valid. I can build fighters that will likely beat a wizard in initiative and kill him. Granted, how I would build him is not unique to fighters, but it is valid for fighters. Just saying.
Again, 1v1 cage match is not the point.
all of this is classic "money=immortality" fallacy. No one is immune to being murdered. No one. Not presidents, heads of corporations, popes, or heads of multi-national organizations like the red cross.
What's the murder rate among the income brackets?
Further, the idea that a fighter has less access to money discounts that he a) might just be able to make a car bomb, or b) the lack of knowledge or realization that you can buy anti-tank weapons for less than most people pay for a used car.
What's the Pathfinder equivalent of a car bomb? Maybe the Fighter can (pay a caster to) make a book full of explosive runes, then get the Wizard to read it?
As for anti-tank weapons: The CEO can arm his guards with such weapons too, and do it through """legitimate""" means. He can call up his golf buddy at the local defense contractor or private security firm. He can buy them on the up-and-up from surplus US military stockpiles that they're trying to get rid of. This is all quite beside the overtly illicit market. Does the soldier have contacts who can provide him with RPGs? Will they be able to get the weapons into the country? Did the soldier manage to do all this without the surveillance state noticing?
Or the wizard didn't know about the fighter, or didn't notice him until he was stabbing him. It happens. But the argument that the wizard is the only one who has super-awesome contingencies in place is a fallacy too. They get some powerful defensive spells, but at the cost of other equally powerful offensive or utility options.
It costs him one spell slot every 1 Day/CL. Where is the Fighter getting Contingency from? Is he burning his gold and making hard UMD checks for a nerfed version of it?
Or the wizard didn't know about the fighter, or didn't notice him until he was stabbing him. It happens.
It happens, but how many circumstances must be contrived to make it happen? Not as many as would happen in the opposite scenario (Wizard surprises Fighter).
I looked at your test, and I can easily build a pathfinder fighter who is Wizard balance level. What's your point?
I seriously doubt it, given some of your solutions to the above out of combat challenges. You may have heard of Schrodinger's Wizard, and may even think (like some people in this forum) that it's a knockdown argument. Well, you have Schrodinger's Fighter: He always has the exact right skills, feats (10x Fleet?), and magic items for the situation at hand. The difference is, the Wizard can switch out his spells a hell of a lot more easily than a Fighter can switch out skills, feats, and magic items. And the Wizard, it bears repeating, also has skills, feats, and magic items. Hell, he's likely to have more and better magic items, partly because he doesn't need to spend WBL on magic weapons/armor, and also because of something I forgot to reply to: While the Fighter can make magic items in a very limited capacity through Master Craftsman, it's worse in every way than when a spellcaster does it.
- Must take the Master Craftsman feat tax in addition to a Magic Item Creation feat
- Must spend points in Craft(thing), which is only good for that purpose, unlike Spellcraft (which is used to craft all magic items, plus all its other uses)
- Can only take Master Craftsman once, and therefore can only produce magic items that could be made with Craft(thing)
- His DCs are harder to meet because he can never meet spell prerequisites and his INT is likely to be lower.
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a mythic fighter can choose to mimic a single spell list for spell prerequisites. he's just so mythic in power you know.
don't fighters only actually get like 5 or 6 feats more than other classes as a majority of them hand out 4-5 bonus feats(or feat equivalents)
Yes, this is correct.
To put this in perspective, I've playtested a Fighter hotfix that granted 2 bonus feats per level and it STILL didn't overpower the Fighter.
For the record, I totally and entirely agree with you, but this is pretty heavily anecdotal - that doesn't invalidate it, of course, but it does weaken the power of the evidence. Pretty sure you're aware of this, and I'm not discrediting, but mentioning the problems.
That said, to add to the anecdotal evidence...
The adventure The Twilight Tomb for FR has a brief segment on the RP to introduce the thing, another brief bit on exploration before getting to the site, and then the rest of it is put into making the adventure in general.
It presumes the book The Unapproachable East, but that book isn't - strictly speaking - necessary: it's pretty exclusively used for flavor and several random combats rolled. Technically some elements of the background would make more sense with it, as it has a few things that reference a region from that book, but there's nothing really compelling its use - all relevant stats, and all important information is actually given in the adventure - and really, almost anything that can be used to generate random encounters that you have stats for can be used instead with minimal investment.
So, I decided on a challenge. Taking the Strategy Guide, I opted for a solo character of a random kind, based off of potential dice rolls for any given question.
I got the maneuver specialist archetype. I did not find that terribly likely to go well, but I really wanted this to work out, and I was interested in trying the rules out anyway.
To make this viable, I granted him all 18s, set him as the level that characters are supposed to have finished the module at +3 (I figured extra survive-ability - you miss three people, you get three levels), made him physically immortal and granted him the alacritous and quickling templates (netting a nice +4 to his CR).
This makes him a CR 12 in a module designed for four CR 3-5s - he should have dominated without contest.
From there, I decided to take averages (basically 10+modifier) where dice rolls would succeed 3/4 of the time and he could win the combat within a few rounds (10 or less), and shift gears to actual rolls, where they would not. He also got to have "quantum feats" where he didn't have to take a feat until it was necessary (aside from those suggested by the book for his build) - he was functionally Schrodinger's Fighter (well, Monk, anyway). Traits were the same way.
Yes, I'm aware this is very near to, "You just win." levels of silly - mostly I just wanted to have a bit of fun with a me-run self-done game and go through my "challenge" - kind of like playing a game you've beat several times with fun cheat codes.
I worked to make sure he had to make rolls to know stuff that he wouldn't know - as did the enemy: no one automatically knew his weaknesses, and they only thought to make rolls (and vice verse) if someone did something that indicated rolls should be made.
He ran into several problems right away with random encounters, but for the most part he was able to get through that, though he kind of had to take extra time to recover, and his action economy suffered - he might have had double the actions plus some nice tricks, but statistically he could only do so much damage. Still, he managed to crush a few bandits and wild monsters, and even befriend a nymph (from which he received a favor!).
The issues began cropping up when he got into the module proper - within, he ran into several pass/fail combats and that is where - action economy or not - he began to run into serious issues.
The problem was, he just couldn't make the saves needed.
Though he destroyed his opponents, he lost a lot of strength and constitution doing so, and only really lived due to direct interference from some NPCs (though this was in-character for them). Those are things he just couldn't get back - not in the time-frame imposed by the module.
But that wasn't why he failed (though it would later contribute to it).
I tried running the combat in particular in multiple ways: from a position of surprise; from a position of advantage; heck at one point, I outright metagame cheated ("Ah, why not: I've run this battle six times - I want him to win.") and just evaded everything and dove straight for the <spoiler> he'd have no way of expecting to be there (or a <spoiler>). He couldn't take it down in time.
A single failed save in this combat was the end. Here it was - a guy who had three levels more than the maximum level you're supposed to have, and a CR of seven higher than your group is supposed to have - supposedly an epic level encounter - and he was punk'd by a single failed save in a combat he couldn't win in time, due to low damage output and the inability to trash the baddy.
At one point, I just ran, "What if every hit was either max damage or crit." and he lost - I didn't do "What if every hit is both." because that's too far even for me and this exercise. Dude was done.
So I pondered - I didn't just want him to be dead - I'd obviously put a lot of work into making this succeed.
So... in comes the nymph - after a few days of not hearing from her new friend, she screws her courage to the sticking place, and heads into the thing herself. In so doing, she proceeded to dominate the adventure. She wasn't a very special nymph - she was just a regular CR 7 nymph. Granted, she has 7th level druid spellcasting, but she lacked any templates, her 8 fey HD were strictly worse than equal druid HD (or even 1 less druid HD), her equipment was exclusively a dagger, a pouch, and some gold.
The everything changed. It was so easy, I added back in a few creatures who'd been destroyed, and, while she didn't get away Scott-free, she certainly exceeded Dude based solely on the power of druid magic.
Action economy? Done.
Incorporeal? Done.
Undead? Eh... done... eventually. (Cure spells.)
Traps? Done.
Diplomacy? Done.
Basically, everything was set to "easy" mode. Eventually, I had her go a slightly different way (due to being able to sense where Dude was), but only if she passed the skill test (which she did).
It was nonsensical. She effectively rescued dude, spent her treasure on components to fix him, and then buffed him. He proceeded to dominate the rest of the adventure.
Though hypothetically as vulnerable to save problems as he, she was not, due to save scores - although partially a quirk of her creature kind, relatively comparable to a paladin or cleric of her CR (remember she has no boosting treasure), plus she had a few other tricks to use.
Several times Dude went down like a punk, and she finished off that part of the adventure before putting him back together and then continuing.
After getting most of the way through, I found that kind of power a little boring to keep rolling.
So I decided to retcon punch a bit, and just go with nymph; Dude was dead, and she took over his work. The difference was still very palpable, though not as obvious as it had been. Through patience and tactics, any foe was surmountable, and any combat able to be won - though she struggled with the same foe Dude had, she was able to damage it significantly through spells and tricks to get it to flee.
The rest of the adventure was more or less done just as a high-charisma spellcaster. Diplomacy dudes to get them to do stuff, and work the rest of the adventure with basic mechanical techniques (though a lot of it was running away, or having someone else take the danger, if only temporarily, in the second part). In the end, she won - though the last battle would still have been nearly impossible, were it not for the "special circumstances" the module writers had created it with.
The difference between a CR 12 with double actions and a host of unique action economy-breaking techniques and a CR 7 caster without those things was... stupendously striking.
I'm certain I could have done things differently to get different results, but I fought metagaming as best I could, and tried to give both groups as fair a shake as I could manage. It was a weird, fascinating experience.
(As an aside, the "very loose comparison" druid with the same templates that I ran through later simply annihilated all opposition. I... never actually chose the druid's feats, gender, or name.)
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this got fun fast
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Ah, so we've descended into fighters vs wizards?
Fighter's can't do what wizards do, they aren't meant to.
The game was not designed to be balanced, the game is not intended to be balanced.
Ah, so we've descended into fighters vs wizards?
Fighter's can't do what wizards do, they aren't meant to.
The game was not designed to be balanced, the game is not intended to be balanced.
(Actually, in my case it was a monk vs. a Druid. ;D Otherwise, please carry on.)
Fighters either weren't intended to participate past level 8 or they are proof of severe flaws in understanding the way thgle game changes as levels rise.
They were intended to use magic items to participate.
You might not like it, but it's a fact of life.
Don't like it? Okay. You're allowed to not like it. Some people do like it.
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Fighters either weren't intended to participate past level 8 or they are proof of severe flaws in understanding the way thgle game changes as levels rise.They were intended to use magic items to participate.
You might not like it, but it's a fact of life.
Don't like it? Okay. You're allowed to not like it. Some people do like it.
this feels like a non sequitur.
even with magic items, they still don't compare that well.
like I said, make a fighter who can reliably take down a nation state and not get caught.
That would totally make sense... If Fighters got two or three times the wealth.i could live with that :)
I could slap enemies with my spare duelist glove.
Fighters either weren't intended to participate past level 8 or they are proof of severe flaws in understanding the way thgle game changes as levels rise.They were intended to use magic items to participate.
You might not like it, but it's a fact of life.
Don't like it? Okay. You're allowed to not like it. Some people do like it.
this feels like a non sequitur.
even with magic items, they still don't compare that well.
like I said, make a fighter who can reliably take down a nation state and not get caught.
They don't have to compare, they aren't intended to compare.
You're allowed to not like it, but the game was not designed around the paradigm of balance.
Really though, class by class competing really only exists on the internet.
and at the playing tables and the club rooms and the event locations etcFighters either weren't intended to participate past level 8 or they are proof of severe flaws in understanding the way thgle game changes as levels rise.They were intended to use magic items to participate.
You might not like it, but it's a fact of life.
Don't like it? Okay. You're allowed to not like it. Some people do like it.
this feels like a non sequitur.
even with magic items, they still don't compare that well.
like I said, make a fighter who can reliably take down a nation state and not get caught.
They don't have to compare, they aren't intended to compare.
You're allowed to not like it, but the game was not designed around the paradigm of balance.
Really though, class by class competing really only exists on the internet.
In game, most of the time you have a variety of classes filling a variety of roles.
The fighter has its role, and the wizard has its. The game was designed around this, not around all classes being balanced against each other in a competitive environment where they each have to complete the same tasks and compare who does it best. That really doesn't happen.
Fighters either weren't intended to participate past level 8 or they are proof of severe flaws in understanding the way thgle game changes as levels rise.They were intended to use magic items to participate.
You might not like it, but it's a fact of life.
Don't like it? Okay. You're allowed to not like it. Some people do like it.
this feels like a non sequitur.
even with magic items, they still don't compare that well.
like I said, make a fighter who can reliably take down a nation state and not get caught.
They don't have to compare, they aren't intended to compare.
You're allowed to not like it, but the game was not designed around the paradigm of balance.
Really though, class by class competing really only exists on the internet.
CR says otherwise
also it exists in my mind, when i try to choose what class to play.
Fighters either weren't intended to participate past level 8 or they are proof of severe flaws in understanding the way thgle game changes as levels rise.They were intended to use magic items to participate.
You might not like it, but it's a fact of life.
Don't like it? Okay. You're allowed to not like it. Some people do like it.
this feels like a non sequitur.
even with magic items, they still don't compare that well.
like I said, make a fighter who can reliably take down a nation state and not get caught.
They don't have to compare, they aren't intended to compare.
You're allowed to not like it, but the game was not designed around the paradigm of balance.
Really though, class by class competing really only exists on the internet.
CR says otherwise
also it exists in my mind, when i try to choose what class to play.
Fine, a correction then: class by class competing really happens outside of the game.
Isolated incidents of fighters being retired or fired are anecdotal and really don't prove much, when we have several threads covering what the problems with fighters were and Paizo delivered and we can safely assume they will continue to deliver more options for the fighter. Martial/Caster disparity exists, sure. It's an institution of this edition. Fighters were less competent and we got more options which breached that and gave them the tools they need to compare to other classes that fill their intended role.
I would like to point to another option that I found years ago in the original Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting release for 3.5 which was an alternate cooks feature (the 3.5 equivalents of archetypes) which gave up the level 1 bonus feat for 4+Int skills per level. There's a few archetypes that do this too, if that's really what you want.
Access to magic has been granted and it can technically be done without sacrificing feats.
And seriously does anyone know if Celestial Plate officially got reprinted?
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The fighter has its role, and the wizard has its. The game was designed around this, not around all classes being balanced against each other in a competitive environment where they each have to complete the same tasks and compare who does it best. That really doesn't happen.
The Fighter's role as Mundane Man is the problem to begin with. And the Fighter and Wizard do have to complete the same tasks because they work together in a party.
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I can see this hilarious conversation between the Fighter and the Rogue, who are both trying to slay this wizard...
Fighter: "He's gone to this different plane of existence. We have to follow him, sneak up on him, and slay him. He'll never know we're coming."
The Fighter shuffles a bit in his handy-haversack, pulls out a scroll.
Rogue: "How we gonna get there if we can't just ride our horses there?"
Fighter: "We have this scroll of super powered plane travel. Of course."
Rogue: "Wow! Where'd you get that?"
Fighter: "From this super, high level wizard, of course."
Rogue: "Wait. How many high level wizards do we know? And aren't we trying to kill them all?"
Fighter: "One, I think. But don't worry, it'll be fine."
Rogue: "I don't know about tha--"
Meanwhile, having entered the plane of skin peeling and salt.
Both: Unintelligible screaming.
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Funny, but I don't think there are any CEOs who can do any of those things.
Yeah. That's my point. The Fighter is limited to what generic soldierman 13 can do, but casters are not limited to what a CEO can do (though many argue that as a result casters should be nerfed).
But to answer your hyperbole seriously, almost everything you mentioned there is a saving throw.
That's like arguing fighters cannot possibly kill a caster because armour class exists.
specifically, being mind controlled (will save), paralysis (fort or will save), losing half your action economy permanently (touch attack and a will save), Having their souls ripped out of their bodies (fort save usually, but I think there is a will save option for this as well), possession (will save), made braindead (will save), Coup de grace (requires the helpless action and a whole host of resistable things that get you to that point), killed (ignoring this, as a wizard who is killed is in the exact same boat), imploded (fort save), sent to a realm made of fire (will save for plane shift, avoiding the gate for gate), angel attacks (soldiers can kill angels, or knock them unconscious), the sky raining down destruction (fight in the shade)
So... soldier-man's main defence is his worst save?
As far as killing people he can not reach, bows have a longer range than most spells do, and a fighter CAN hit a target outside of long range for spells.
When I said cannot reach, I didn't mean "1000 feet away" I meant things like "I'm on a completely different plane that you cannot access".
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I have. It runs against the bestiaries and Adventure Path's very well. The extra power is accommodated with one fewer baseline party memeber.You may as well make a new game at that point.Nah. Boost everyone up to par with a well-played wizard/cleric/druid at all levels.sooo nerf casters then?
Im just not sure what your motivation is? what are you wanting? are we pushing for a second edition? unchained? unchained for what you guys are wanting would have to be bigger then just overhauling one class it would have to effect every martial in the game. I mean until pathfinder makes a second edition (which doesn't seem like a thing any time soon) I don't see the point in rehashing this argument every week.
Hmm, I wonder where can I find this... (tempted)
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I'm away from books right now, could someone tell me what narrative options Weapon Masters Handbook adds for fighters over warriors?
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I did. Even at CR+5 there was zero remorse, only gratitude for the new valuable asset to the team and relief in putting the old to rest forever.if done right the fighter should have been able to kick all their asses easily with no chance of being "put to rest"
Divine Regeneration (Ex)An instrument of the gods gains regeneration equal to the base creature's CR plus 20. No form of attack can suppress this regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect.
If the instrument of the gods fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered. If the base creature already has regeneration or fast healing, this replaces it.
now i'm not saying that the fighter would slay them just beat them up to teach them not to "fire" the fighter when they think his time has expired
A 20th level fighter with a WIS of 20 and a CoR +5 (+16 to Will total) has a 1/4 chance of outright failing their save against plane shift to the negative energy plane cast by a 13th level wizard with 20 INT, and that's before factoring in feats to increase DC, magic items to increase DC, or the fact that the wizard could first drop a quickened (via metamagic rod) greater dispel (which can negate their CoR and possibly their WIS bonus since your average fighter won't have it that high without a headband) which could give them as high as a 2/3 change of ending up utterly screwed. So even with their regeneration they're not a huge deal for even a significantly lower level, let alone one on par with the fighter in question. And that was just off the top of my head, give me a little bit and I could probably come up with a plausible way a 9th level wizard could take care of them as well.
And all that is going off a single wizard, not accounting for a party that includes other casters as well. A cleric really opens up more options.