What's wrong with the fighter


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

251 to 300 of 1,354 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Isonaroc wrote:

A 20th level fighter with a WIS of 20 and a CoR +5 (+16 to Will total) has a 1/4 chance of outright failing their save against plane shift to the negative energy plane cast by a 13th level wizard with 20 INT, and that's before factoring in feats to increase DC, magic items to increase DC, or the fact that the wizard could first drop a quickened (via metamagic rod) greater dispel (which can negate their CoR and possibly their WIS bonus since your average fighter won't have it that high without a headband) which could give them as high as a 2/3 change of ending up utterly screwed. So even with their regeneration they're not a huge deal for even a significantly lower level, let alone one on par with the fighter in question. And that was just off the top of my head, give me a little bit and I could probably come up with a plausible way a 9th level wizard could take care of them as well.

And all that is going off a single wizard, not accounting for a party that includes other casters as well. A cleric really opens up more options.

In terms of the quickened greater dispel magic, a Quicken Metamagic Rod is 75.5k GP. A level 13 NPC should have ~21k in gear. How are they affording this rod? Even with PC WBL, that's over half of their budget on a single item, which goes against how Paizo says to spend WBL when building characters ("for a balanced approach").

And if your 20th level Fighter isn't a completely derp, and takes Armed Bravery and Iron will, add +7 to that number for a +23 Will save, and will only fail on a 1 (5%). If they were smart enough to take Improved Iron Will, they will need to roll a 1 twice (0.25% chance). If they're a Dwarf, Half-Elf, or Half-Orc, those numbers just get better.

Hell, the last Fighter I made had a +15 Will save at level 10 (15 PB, standard WBL), which was roughly equivalent to a similar Paladin's Will save, and slightly lower than a standard Human Superstitious/FCB Barb while raging (~+16).


Rogar Valertis wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
why is the Ranger a better TWF fighter than the fighter? wouldn't you get more feats faster with a fighter? am I missing something?

The ranger doesn't need an absurd amount of dexterity to make their build work: they can stip the dexterity prerequisites and pump strength at dice/pointbuy and only need one stat boost. All dexterity does on melee is up their AC, which is the cheapest thing in the game to up.

To be fair I can build a fighter who is better than a ranger at TWF with 3 lvl dip in un rogue. Requires a bit of system knowledge though.

isnt a TWF character feat heavy and wouldn't the fighter be a better choice?

I know the ranger gets the base feats for free but most folks go for the whole feat tree?

or am I horribly mistaken?

Silver Crusade

Cheburn wrote:


In terms of the quickened greater dispel magic, a Quicken Metamagic Rod is 75.5k GP. A level 13 NPC should have ~21k in gear. How are they affording this rod? Even with PC WBL, that's over half of their budget on a single item, which goes against how Paizo says to spend WBL when building characters ("for a balanced approach").

And if your 20th level Fighter isn't a completely derp, and takes Armed Bravery and Iron will, add +7 to that number for a +23 Will save, and will only fail on a 1 (5%). If they were smart enough to take Improved Iron Will, they will need to roll a 1 twice (0.25% chance). If they're a Dwarf, Half-Elf, or Half-Orc, those numbers just get better.

Hell, the last Fighter I made had a +15 Will save at level 10 (15 PB, standard WBL), which was roughly equivalent to a similar Paladin's Will save, and slightly lower than a standard Human Superstitious/FCB Barb while raging (~+16).

I literally threw that together in less than five minutes, like I said, give me time and I could come up with even more effective stuff. cant afford the metamagic rod, ok, rid of cancellation is only 11,000. Hit them with a scroll of maze, that'll give you 10 rounds to prepare for all sorts of nasty stuff. Hell, a simple fly spell and a wind wall makes them more or less untouchable to a fighter. The long and short of it is the wizard alone has an entire toolbox of things they can do, many of which the fighter has little hope of countering.


Isonaroc wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
I did. Even at CR+5 there was zero remorse, only gratitude for the new valuable asset to the team and relief in putting the old to rest forever.

if done right the fighter should have been able to kick all their asses easily with no chance of being "put to rest"

Divine Regeneration (Ex)

An instrument of the gods gains regeneration equal to the base creature's CR plus 20. No form of attack can suppress this regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect.

If the instrument of the gods fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered. If the base creature already has regeneration or fast healing, this replaces it.

now i'm not saying that the fighter would slay them just beat them up to teach them not to "fire" the fighter when they think his time has expired

A 20th level fighter with a WIS of 20 and a CoR +5 (+16 to Will total) has a 1/4 chance of outright failing their save against plane shift to the negative energy plane cast by a 13th level wizard with 20 INT, and that's before factoring in feats to increase DC, magic items to increase DC, or the fact that the wizard could first drop a quickened (via metamagic rod) greater dispel (which can negate their CoR and possibly their WIS bonus since your average fighter won't have it that high without a headband) which could give them as high as a 2/3 change of ending up utterly screwed. So even with their regeneration they're not a huge deal for even a significantly lower level, let alone one on par with the fighter in question. And that was just off the top of my head, give me a little bit and I could probably come up with a plausible way a 9th level wizard could take care of them as well.

And all that is going off a single...

This. This is the problem.

You are specifically denying the existence of material that the fighter has to up his defenses for no purpose other than to make a point that is demonstrably false.

IF ONLY THERE WAS SOME SORT OF FALLACY THAT CALLS OUT WHEN PEOPLE PRETEND CERTAIN MATERIALS DO NOT EXIST WHICH SOLVE THE PROBLEM, BUT STILL ASSERT THAT THE PROBLEM EXISTS!!!!!!!!!!!

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Oberoni?

Silver Crusade

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Pardon me for not taking the time to write a 10,000 word essay in the five minutes I had before work picked up. Shame on me. And the fact that we're discussing a 20th level fighter against a 13th level wizard and you're focusing on how unfair I'm being to the martial is hilarious. Yes, you can build a (high level) fighter that can (sometimes) threaten a (mid level) wizard, but that requires heavy specialization...whereas a generalist wizard is almost always more effective in almost every situation.

Also, jeez, calm down with your "fallacy." It's not catching, deal with it.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Isonaroc wrote:
Cheburn wrote:
Hell, the last Fighter I made had a +15 Will save at level 10 (15 PB, standard WBL), which was roughly equivalent to a similar Paladin's Will save, and slightly lower than a standard Human Superstitious/FCB Barb while raging (~+16).
I literally threw that together in less than five minutes, like I said, give me time and I could come up with even more effective stuff. cant afford the metamagic rod, ok, rid of cancellation is only 11,000. Hit them with a scroll of maze, that'll give you 10 rounds to prepare for all sorts of nasty stuff. Hell, a simple fly spell and a wind wall makes them more or less untouchable to a fighter. The long and short of it is the wizard alone has an entire toolbox of things they can do, many of which the fighter has little hope of countering.

A one time use 11k item ... that requires a successful touch attack to use, and which decently-built level 20 Fighter has a 95% chance of resisting (on top of normal dodge chance). Even if it's not resisted, you're standing next to a level 20 Fighter for a round waiting to cast while he gets to try to full attack you into oblivion. And Maze is a level 8 spell, which puts us at a level 15 Wizard minimum. And as a GM, I would not generally allow a level 15 NPC to have a one-time use item that's 11k, since that's ~4x the 2800 GP that Paizo recommends for such items. We're clearly into special case scenarios already. Though to be fair, if you're casting Maze, no need for a Rod of Cancellation.

More fundamentally however, you're conflating the C/M disparity with problems with the Fighter class. Many {Barbarians*/Paladins/Rogues/Rangers/Monks/Brawlers/Inquisitors (if not ranged)/Swashbucklers/Slayers/Cavaliers} would have trouble with a Wind Wall/Fly combo, or with getting put into a Maze. It's not specific to the Fighter class.

If your point is, "almost all martials are brokenly weak, and you should only play lvl 6+ casters," it's not a problem with Fighter specifically.


barbs have in class flight, paladins have in class flight, rangers have in class flight, monks have in class ways to reach you, inquisitors have in class flight.

That leaves rogues, which are also bottom of barrel with fighter, brawlers, which are more skilled fighters that get better things than fighter, slayers that gets many more skills than fighter and is as good at fighting, cavalier which is still more skilled, and swashbucklers which still is more skilled.

So only 6 classes have no way to deal with it in class, and of those, they all beat the fighter at basically everything that the fighter can try.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
No, you can't.

Based on what? You haven't even seen any fighter that I have built, yet you're assuming because you can't build said fighter that it can't be done.


Chess Pwn wrote:
barbs have in class flight, paladins have in class flight, rangers have in class flight, monks have in class ways to reach you, inquisitors have in class flight.

What do I need flight for when I can take quick draw and sheath my melee weapon and draw a ranged weapon?

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Vrog Skyreaver wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
barbs have in class flight, paladins have in class flight, rangers have in class flight, monks have in class ways to reach you, inquisitors have in class flight.
What do I need flight for when I can take quick draw and sheath my melee weapon and draw a ranged weapon?

Because wind wall.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Vrog Skyreaver wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
No, you can't.

Based on what? You haven't even seen any fighter that I have built, yet you're assuming because you can't build said fighter that it can't be done.

Because you can't build a fighter that can stop time or travel between dimensions with his own power.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Chess Pwn wrote:

barbs have in class flight, paladins have in class flight, rangers have in class flight, monks have in class ways to reach you, inquisitors have in class flight.

That leaves rogues, which are also bottom of barrel with fighter, brawlers, which are more skilled fighters that get better things than fighter, slayers that gets many more skills than fighter and is as good at fighting, cavalier which is still more skilled, and swashbucklers which still is more skilled.

So only 6 classes have no way to deal with it in class, and of those, they all beat the fighter at basically everything that the fighter can try.

Fighters have in-class flight.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Vrog Skyreaver wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
No, you can't.

Based on what? You haven't even seen any fighter that I have built, yet you're assuming because you can't build said fighter that it can't be done.

Because you can't build a fighter that can stop time orctravel between dimensions with his own power.

Yes you can.

Also, I'll say this again, with the current amount of splatbooks, the Fighter is perfectly fine mechanically. You can make powerful, effective Fighters who can contribute in and out of combat well.

The problem is class design. It's a class that thrives on dumpster diving through splatbooks because it has so few features of its own.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Wait... What? Please show me your Secret, Wizard.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Cheburn wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

barbs have in class flight, paladins have in class flight, rangers have in class flight, monks have in class ways to reach you, inquisitors have in class flight.

That leaves rogues, which are also bottom of barrel with fighter, brawlers, which are more skilled fighters that get better things than fighter, slayers that gets many more skills than fighter and is as good at fighting, cavalier which is still more skilled, and swashbucklers which still is more skilled.

So only 6 classes have no way to deal with it in class, and of those, they all beat the fighter at basically everything that the fighter can try.

Fighters have in-class flight.

That is a feat. Not anything specific to the fighter class. A commoner could pick up that feat. So it's not that the fighter CAN'T fly, it's that his class doesn't help him solve that problem.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

To be fair, there's the Mutagen Master archetype, which lets you pick up the Flight discovery.

But that's just splitting hairs.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Wait... What? Please show me your Secret, Wizard.

His build relies heavily on exploiting "Paragon Surge" like effect to be able to get things on demand.

His build is not PFS legal.
His build would probably get banned in many home games, but here's the gist.

Fighters in magic tactics toolbox got an advanced weapon training option, warrior spirit, that lets them add any enhancement to their weapon.
Also in inner sea intrigue is a weapon enhancement training, which when applied to a weapon give the holder the combat feat that is set at creation.
One AWT is skilled, where you get extra ranks in 2 skills equal to your bab, and you refund any skills you've allocated to that skill.
There's a combat feat, AWT that gives you an extra AWT.

so the plan is using warrior spirit to get training to gain any combat feat as a standard action. Get AWT to get skilled to a skill you have max ranks in to get a refund of those skills to allocate anywhere you want for a while and then saying once training goes away that your skills revert back to what they were beforehand. AKA max ranks in any skill as a standard action.

Another AWT is item mastery from magic tactics toolbox which lets you grab any item mastery feat you qualify for. Combining this with warrior spirit and training is giving him any item mastery feat when he wants.

Another AWT is giving you extra uses of limited per day feats. Which he grabs to get extra uses of barroom brawler to get more flexible combat feats.

And since these paizo sourced materials exist in a combination of many softcovers that the fighter is fixed and you are committing his new fallacy if you say the fighters still need fixing because you don't let all of that to work his way to count as making the fighter fixed. It's almost like saying the fighter has been fixed in a 3PP so it's a fallacy to keep saying the fighter needs fixing because you don't accept the sources that currently exists to fix the fighter.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
PK the Dragon wrote:

To be fair, there's the Mutagen Master archetype, which lets you pick up the Flight discovery.

But that's just splitting hairs.

True, and hence seen as one of the best archetypes because it's granting new abilities to the fighter.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Wait... What? Please show me your Secret, Wizard.

Planar travel? Make an Elemental-kin with Elemental Jaunt. Time Stop? Wizard VMC. Doesn't hurt at all due to massive amount of feats.

In any case, the Fighter doesn't need this. The Fighter should be able to use his means to gain the allegiance of those who can.

The Wizard can toss a Fighter to another dimension (not a 13 vs 20th level one though, l2build), but the Fighter can emerge from that dimension as a conquering warlord.

Not every class needs to be a swiss army knife. Doing one set of things well is all they need.

My ideal Fighter? It has the following things:

- Ability to create a customized fighting style, but not just specialize in it but also dabble on other things. It must be very effective in the former, and good enough on the latter.

- Ability to take on some tasks that are part of their training and function - scouting, pillaging, courtly duties, negotiations, etc.


The fighter is doing OK at the mo by all accounts

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Do you mind going into why you get the points allocated back to your previous skills when versatile training goes away?

To me reallocating the skills is a permanent effect, not temporary.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Secret Wizard wrote:

The Wizard can toss a Fighter to another dimension (not a 13 vs 20th level one though, l2build), but the Fighter can emerge from that dimension as a conquering warlord.

Unless that dimension is the negative energy plane...or positive energy plane...or elemental plane of water (generally most fighters aren't able to breathe water when they aren't expecting it)...or any number of other places where they are effectively useless.

Quote:
In any case, the Fighter doesn't need this. The Fighter should be able to use his means to gain the allegiance of those who can.

Because who needs to be able to accomplish stuff when you can convince another wizard to do it for you! *thumbs up*

Seriously, though. While m/c disparity is an issue, the big problem with the fighter is that they are a jack-of-some (not even close to all) trades and a master of none. The thing they really excel at can be done just about as well by other far more interesting classes.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I feel like the problem with the fighter is that it's a remnant of the games core/base adventure expectation which was/is:

Go to dungeon -> kill everything -> loot.

Rinse and repeat ad-nauseum. All of your abilities and class features are to facilitate this game-play cycle.

For this purpose he's fine, not great but fine.

The problem arises when you go outside of this narrow gameplay scope and want to do more than go to a dungeon and kill things.

If you look at it in the context of you're main goal is to kill and loot enemies in a dungeon-crawl setting the fighters existence/chassis makes a lot more sense. It's just it doesn't scale up from that.

Basically I feel the core of the class is stuck in the past and is outdated/does no favors for the kinds of games people tend to run.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Cheburn wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

barbs have in class flight, paladins have in class flight, rangers have in class flight, monks have in class ways to reach you, inquisitors have in class flight.

That leaves rogues, which are also bottom of barrel with fighter, brawlers, which are more skilled fighters that get better things than fighter, slayers that gets many more skills than fighter and is as good at fighting, cavalier which is still more skilled, and swashbucklers which still is more skilled.

So only 6 classes have no way to deal with it in class, and of those, they all beat the fighter at basically everything that the fighter can try.

Fighters have in-class flight.
That is a feat. Not anything specific to the fighter class. A commoner could pick up that feat. So it's not that the fighter CAN'T fly, it's that his class doesn't help him solve that problem.

But the fighter can get it without taking a feat, if he wants. Hell, a fighter can use Warrior Spirit to add it to his weapon via Training and use it situationally, if he wants.

Fighters can also in-class make their own magic armor and can get Master Craftsman, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and have craft (armor) maxed out wihtout having to spend a single feat on it. There's not just Celestial Armor out there, but there are plenty of armor add ons that grant flight.

Secret Wizard is right, the fighter has enough splatbooks to be competent, but it needs those splatbooks and that's the real problem that we should be complaining about.


Firebug wrote:

Do you mind going into why you get the points allocated back to your previous skills when versatile training goes away?

To me reallocating the skills is a permanent effect, not temporary.

Well, in that vein if you retain the skills but lose the feat (since it's temporary) then you can literally just keep doing it until you have every skill maxed out for free.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
master_marshmallow wrote:
Firebug wrote:

Do you mind going into why you get the points allocated back to your previous skills when versatile training goes away?

To me reallocating the skills is a permanent effect, not temporary.

Well, in that vein if you retain the skills but lose the feat (since it's temporary) then you can literally just keep doing it until you have every skill maxed out for free.

I don't think you can because you are retraining the skills are you not? Which mean you are re-allocating not conjuring skills ranks out of thin air.

Or am i misreading that?


master_marshmallow wrote:


Fighters can also in-class make their own magic armor and can get Master Craftsman, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and have craft (armor) maxed out wihtout having to spend a single feat on it.

You can't do that till level 7

Craft is an int skill

Magic weapons and armors have multiple spells that you're missing, so either you need the spellcaster anyway, or your DC will be through the roof.

Most importantly, master craftsman works on ONE skill. You can craft magic armor OR weapons OR stat boosters but not all three.

Quote:
Secret Wizard is right, the fighter has enough splatbooks to be competent, but it needs those splatbooks and that's the real problem that we should be complaining about.

A fighter has enough options to be viable but nearly no option is more viable with a pure fighter build.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


A fighter has enough options to be viable but nearly no option is more viable with a pure fighter build.

Incorrect on a thousand counts, but the simpler one is Weapon Mastery is the best DPR booster in the game. Since AWT/AAT, there are more than enough options to make staying pure Fighter the best option.


Secret Wizard wrote:


Incorrect on a thousand counts, but the simpler one is Weapon Mastery is the best DPR booster in the game. Since AWT/AAT, there are more than enough options to make staying pure Fighter the best option.

Which weapon mastery?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:


Fighters can also in-class make their own magic armor and can get Master Craftsman, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and have craft (armor) maxed out wihtout having to spend a single feat on it.

You can't do that till level 7

Craft is an int skill

Magic weapons and armors have multiple spells that you're missing, so either you need the spellcaster anyway, or your DC will be through the roof.

Most importantly, master craftsman works on ONE skill. You can craft magic armor OR weapons OR stat boosters but not all three.

Right, and you can specifically get magic armor from the option I cited, and you can access it via the feat as early as level 3.

I'm not sure what you're really trying to say here that hasn't already been clarified upthread. I'M THE ONE WHO POINTED OUT THAT MASTER CRAFTSMAN ONLY WORKS WITH ONE TYPE OF ITEM!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The lv20 class feature of auto-confirming any crit threats and increasing the crit multiplier for one weapon.

It's not like the UBarb is getting +6 to attacks, +12 to crit confirmations, also upping the crit mulitplier, ignoring cover and concealment, lowering total concealment to concealment, and auto confirming 1 crit per day at that level. While having pounce.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:


Incorrect on a thousand counts, but the simpler one is Weapon Mastery is the best DPR booster in the game. Since AWT/AAT, there are more than enough options to make staying pure Fighter the best option.
Which weapon mastery?

I think he means the fighter capstone for +1 Crit multiplier and auto-confirmation


master_marshmallow wrote:
Right, and you can specifically get magic armor from the option I cited, and you can access it via the feat as early as level 3.

??? How?

Master Craftsman

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Even retraining so you don't need to wait till level 7 puts this at 5.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Right, and you can specifically get magic armor from the option I cited, and you can access it via the feat as early as level 3.

??? How?

Master Craftsman

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Even retraining so you don't need to wait till level 7 puts this at 5.

Via advanced Armor training that gives you master craftsman, Skill ranks and Craft arms and armor for the purposes of armor only.

Master Armorer (Ex):
The fighter can use his base attack bonus in place of his ranks in the Craft (armor) skill. The fighter need not be wearing armor or using a shield to use this option. The fighter substitutes his total base attack bonus (including his base attack bonus gained through levels in other classes) for his ranks in this skill, but adds the skill’s usual ability score modifier and any other bonuses or penalties that would modify that skill. Additionally the fighter is treated as having the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Master Craftsman feats, but only for the purpose of making magic armor. The fighter does not need to meet these feats’ prerequisites.

You can get the AAT as a feat at level 3.

If you take it as a combat bonus feat you can use a Manual of War to train it into something usefull when not in downtime. Although I know many a person who would consider that rule abuse .


I don't see how that helps the fighter. You still need to be able to afford the parts


master_marshmallow wrote:
Firebug wrote:

Do you mind going into why you get the points allocated back to your previous skills when versatile training goes away?

To me reallocating the skills is a permanent effect, not temporary.

Well, in that vein if you retain the skills but lose the feat (since it's temporary) then you can literally just keep doing it until you have every skill maxed out for free.

I'm pretty sure the GM permissive enough to let you create skill ranks from nothing has not yet been born.

Hell, a number would probably declare the "retrain two of my skills into any skill I want with this combination on the fly" too cheesy and forbid it. GMs are a conservative bunch in this game 90% of the time.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
master_marshmallow wrote:
Firebug wrote:

Do you mind going into why you get the points allocated back to your previous skills when versatile training goes away?

To me reallocating the skills is a permanent effect, not temporary.

Well, in that vein if you retain the skills but lose the feat (since it's temporary) then you can literally just keep doing it until you have every skill maxed out for free.

I think they were saying the reassigning is permanent. If you had perception 15 ranks and did this trick and moved them to 15 ranks of diplomacy that you wouldn't be able to change them back when the feat was done. Thus you'd end with 0 ranks in perception.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Chess Pwn wrote:

The lv20 class feature of auto-confirming any crit threats and increasing the crit multiplier for one weapon.

It's not like the UBarb is getting +6 to attacks, +12 to crit confirmations, also upping the crit mulitplier, ignoring cover and concealment, lowering total concealment to concealment, and auto confirming 1 crit per day at that level. While having pounce.

Ah, yes, I forgot that Weapon Mastery was the only single feature the Fighter had. My bad.


Chess Pwn wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Firebug wrote:

Do you mind going into why you get the points allocated back to your previous skills when versatile training goes away?

To me reallocating the skills is a permanent effect, not temporary.

Well, in that vein if you retain the skills but lose the feat (since it's temporary) then you can literally just keep doing it until you have every skill maxed out for free.
I think they were saying the reassigning is permanent. If you had perception 15 ranks and did this trick and moved them to 15 ranks of diplomacy that you wouldn't be able to change them back when the feat was done. Thus you'd end with 0 ranks in perception.

I guess, but you can "temporarily" get those back on a dime anyway.


Fighters have a problem in that they have few abilities to use outside of combat. Every other class has some kind of skill or abilities useful in non-combat situations. So the person playing the fighter just winds up standing in the corner waiting for another fight.

Liberty's Edge

So as long as the Wizard does not know how to use his spells. Or a player running him does the same. The Fighter has a chance. While as usual downplaying the effectiveness of magic. Yes magic items help. They still don't match how effective the right combination of spells. Not to mention the Fighter features are boring as well. Bravery tops out at +4. Not even scaling with DCs imo.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:
IF ONLY THERE WAS SOME SORT OF FALLACY THAT CALLS OUT WHEN PEOPLE PRETEND CERTAIN MATERIALS DO NOT EXIST WHICH SOLVE THE PROBLEM, BUT STILL ASSERT THAT THE PROBLEM EXISTS!!!!!!!!!!!

it's called the "stacking the deck" fallacy if you purposefully omit critical details about a specific comparison.

though, you're also not taking into account the character's levels.

Cheburn wrote:


Fighters have in-class flight.

that's very much not in-class.


Cheburn wrote:


Fighters have in-class flight.
that's very much not in-class.

It's from a splatbook that was basically the first major "Fighter Patch." It can be taken with a single feat, which Fighters have a ton of. And with it, there's no reason that any Fighter who wants to can't fly starting at level 8. Sounds "in-class" enough for me. YMMV.

Let me rephrase though, to be more technically correct: Lack of flight is no longer a major problem for mid-level Fighters.

Also: Wind Wall is no longer a major problem for mid-level Fighters with ranged weapons.

The C/M disparity is a problem for every martial, and is separate from problems individually with the Fighter class.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

it's once per day, and for that I'd definitely use my feats elsewhere.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, if only there was a +2 enchantment out there that a fighter could use with warrior spirit to ignore any wind conditions...

And I would say spending a fighter bonus feat (advanced weapon training) to pick up an item mastery feat "flight mastery" to use with his +1 Keen weapon would be "in class".

Bandw2 wrote:
it's once per day, and for that I'd definitely use my feats elsewhere.

Wasn't that the definition of marshmallow fallacy a few pages back? Ignoring a actual solution(even if it's limited) just because you would rather choose something else that doesn't have a perceived limitation?


darth_borehd wrote:
Fighters have a problem in that they have few abilities to use outside of combat.

It goes much further.

In combat, when do you use the fighter as the main chasis for your character? When no other specialized class does it better.

When won't another specialized class do it better?

Very rarely.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
darth_borehd wrote:
Fighters have a problem in that they have few abilities to use outside of combat.

It goes much further.

In combat, when do you use the fighter as the main chasis for your character? When no other specialized class does it better.

When won't another specialized class do it better?

Very rarely.

This is not an argument for anything. Pathfinder has so much bloat that any one specific specialized concept could be done with a sidegrade in another class.

My sample Fighter builds here may not be 100 of them, but it's just an idea of several things a Fighter can do that other classes cannot.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Firebug wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
it's once per day, and for that I'd definitely use my feats elsewhere.
Wasn't that the definition of marshmallow fallacy a few pages back? Ignoring a actual solution(even if it's limited) just because you would rather choose something else that doesn't have a perceived limitation?

yes and I pointed out the reasoning behind the marshmellow fallacy is a fallacy, it's the irrelevant conclusion fallacy.

you're proving the conclusion that it exists, and then saying, the rest must follow, when there's no direct link between an option be available and it seeing actual use.

it's official we've moved onto Schrodinger's fighter.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bandw2 wrote:
Firebug wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
it's once per day, and for that I'd definitely use my feats elsewhere.
Wasn't that the definition of marshmallow fallacy a few pages back? Ignoring a actual solution(even if it's limited) just because you would rather choose something else that doesn't have a perceived limitation?

yes and I pointed out the reasoning behind the marshmellow fallacy is a fallacy, it's the irrelevant conclusion fallacy.

you're proving the conclusion that it exists, and then saying, the rest must follow, when there's no direct link between an option be available and it seeing actual use.

it's official we've moved onto Schrodinger's fighter.

But saying: The fighter cannot do X isn't solved by saying "with this ability the fighter can do X" you aren't proving anything.

Perhaps I should be more specific in my examples, but to do that I need more specific criteria to solve.

Shrodinger's fighter is a thing now because abilities like Warrior Spirit and the Training property.

If the problem here is limited uses per day, then you really have no argument because every other class is limited in uses per day for their problem solving abilities as well.

Depending entirely on what you're problem is, the fighter has a lot of decent ways around it:

Master Armorer -> Celestial Armor/Plate & Shield which combined allow you to cast Overland Flight which lasts 9 hours (one hour longer than the game's assumed adventuring day)

Item Mastery (Teleportation Mastery) -> opens up the Dimensional Dervish feat chain which the fighter can finish early using its own in class retraining mechanic, 1/day at 8th/9th level then twice at 14th (assuming you stay single classed) It's Pounce that can get you into combat without having to waste a move action so you can get in and start full-rounding from the start of the fight, but it's also Dimension Door which has its own narrative power

Both of those can be obtained without spending your actual feats, but you will have to have some ranks in UMD (4 to be exact).

I don't see how this is an irrelevant conclusion, I'm sorry.

251 to 300 of 1,354 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / What's wrong with the fighter All Messageboards