TL;DR This player wants a mundane stun gun to cast shocking grasp through. I am intrigued but cautious.
Wolly Wonka: Salstoria
Wolly Wonka: If I fired a bolt at a dude, with my crossbow, and it sticks in the guy. Let's say I had copper wire attatched to the bolt right?
ICEDICKINS: hoping for a mundane true strike?
Wolly Wonka: Would I then be able to cast shocking grasp on the copper bolt to then target him from a range? Naturally, make the bolt have the copper wire lead right up to a copper head.
Wolly Wonka: Of course, the voltage would probably melt the copper wire, and or destroy it. Either way, would I be able to engineer it to let me cast shocking grasp on it?
Wolly Wonka: Because SHocking Grasp is said to affect everything it can affect, underwater it becomes a AOE centered on the caster, and it deals more damage to people in metal, even giving me a boost to hit if they're wearing all metal
Wolly Wonka: Want time to think on it? Or...?
ICEDICKINS: I'll be thinking about it. If I allow it, I'll probably nerf the range of the crossbow, since your dragging a tow line behind the bolt.
Wolly Wonka: Oh yeah, a bow wouldn't be able to do it physics wise. Not enough power behind it, but a cross bow bolt can bury itself into concrete at a certain range. So, it could carry say, like a few strands of copper in it.
Wolly Wonka: but, sweet.
Wolly Wonka: I'll be looking into more on this, I want to inda make a character change, in character that is. Where she'll begin to find uses for mundane items to be fused wth her magoc
ICEDICKINS: Probably won't be all I do. Since, you are attempting to break some of the limits set in place for these spells, and through mundane means, so I can't rightly regulate it after allowing you to do it the first time. I'll have to research certain aspects, such as if there are comparable abilities that I can reference.
ICEDICKINS: price increase for the weapon and ammo is very likely
Wolly Wonka: There are a few, tbh, it's the same thing as having my familiar deliver the spell. There's just many more uses for it other than aiming to kill. I imagine scenarios where I can use it to talk someone down. Like "Calm down afore I fry yo ass" kinda situations.
Wolly Wonka: etc
Wolly Wonka: I could use it to start fires from a range, without the need of fire magic, and so on so forth.
Wolly Wonka: I find it more of a utility item than a item to kill if that makes sense, while it cna be used for that, there's other uses too
ICEDICKINS: utility is more dangerous to regulate than simple damage, because there are more inherent uses for it.
Wolly Wonka: True
Wolly Wonka: But, it could be balanced out as a more expensive price on the bow, and a one shot for the ammo, forcing me to buy ammo by the bolt rather than the bundle
ICEDICKINS: agreed. I don't believe you have an appropriate craft skill either, so you'll have to commission it.
ICEDICKINS: certainly not impossible though
Wolly Wonka: Which I can easily do if I draw up the blueprints using knw engineering.
What issues might I have missed, and what limits should I set? So far I've got
Possible Future Problems
- What else might this player pull on me using "but you let me do this thing so why not this other thing?"
- How greatly could this increase the effectiveness of the character?
- Am I stepping over other solutions? (Are there other items out there?)
Possible Nerfs
- Price increase to weapon and bolt
- Range nerf, likely to half normal
- Action economy cost, requiring setup
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I always think letting the player do creative things is a good idea. Of course, I'm the kind of player that likes doing stuff like this, so I'm a bit biased.
I'd have them make a crafting check to make a bow capable of feeding the wire effectively through the mechanism, then have it take a swift action to load a 'Copper Bolt' into the crossbow.
Other than that, I wouldn't change much. Unless they have Spell Combat, it'll take them two rounds to actually get the spell to go through the bolt.
I agree, because that's how I am as well, but I know that it can get out of hand if I let it go to far, which is why I want more opinions.
hmm, I could also make the weapon fragile, to illustrate it's prototype...ness. that could be something.
I see two main points, does the bolt stick in the target with the wire intact, and will the wire transmit the spell.
First point, on any given attack the bolt could have grazed, passed through the target, dented armor causing a damaging contussion without the tip touching flesh, etc.. How will you decide ifnthe bolt is properly embedded in the target? What are the odds that the wire is damaged/ broken? Passing through heavy brush, being twisted and stepped on when the guy who just got hit staggers back a step or two, what kind of action is it for the target to pull the bolt out, or to break the wire?
Will the wire even carry the spell, I strongly read RAW as it would not, but you don't want RAW, you want fun and balanced. So if he succeeds on a range attack with a crossbow, and whatever conditilns are estaished fornthe bolt embedding and it and the wire staying there, he can follow up with a standard action spell to do up to 5d6 w no save or attack roll. Compare this to forgetting the crossbow and casting a couple of magic missiles. Doesn't sound all that effective to me.
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Functionally, this is giving the player the benefit of the Reach Spell metamagic feat. Whatever benefit he gets should be designed with that in mind.
(It could, for example, be designed much like a metamagic rod - say, three/day uses, otherwise it puts too much wear on the components before you can 'fix' them each day.)
I concur with that idea- the wire is destroyed after it delivers the spell. Wires without proper installation will deteriorate over time.
it is "spell conductive" wire, so you could price it accordingly.Possibly-
"spell conductive" bolt:
1d3 dmg; range 40-50 ft; full round reload
also, consider that the character isn't a Magus. Without Spell combat they'd have to cast the spell on their turn and hold the charge. Then they'd have to aim the crossbow and fire- which could in effect require a concentration check, especially if they moved to get within range.
I'm pretty sure you cannot "hold the charge" while handling the crossbow, well a handcrossbow maybe, the spell would dischargenon your weapon. The bolt would need to be embedded, and then the spell cast on the collowing round, allowing time for things to interfere with things.
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I'd probably say that it would require that he has to be able to make an attack with the crossbow and be able to use shocking grasp in the same round. It would be far too easy to remove the wires if a round passes. I would also say the crossbow would need to be masterwork and that the arrows would be a higher cost and maybe be bought as single bolts. (maybe the costs of adamantine bolts) I would also require the crossbow to have a misfire.
So in short, IMO, he needs.
A masterwork crossbow, higher cost of bolts, a misfire chance, and the ability to cast and crossbow in the same turn.
I also think it should be a swift for the creature hit to remove the "taser"
I'd probably say that it would require that he has to be able to make an attack with the crossbow and be able to use shocking grasp in the same round. It would be far too easy to remove the wires if a round passes.
While I agree that you have to be able to attack & deliver the same round, we're now talking about a two-weapon attack, in essence. The Spellstrike ability of the magus, to be specific. Now, this is much more limited in scope than that ability, so maybe a feat would cover it. Also, note that Shocking Grasp has somatic components. Just as the magus must keep one hand free throughout the turn in order to pull off Spell Combat, the PC really ought to be limited to using a hand crossbow (or get the Still Spell metamagic feat).
Is there any way the player would consider a magic crossbow? I realize that that's not the intent... Hmmmm, crossbow bolts of Spell Storing...
Edit: bad, bad, bad! The crossbow would have to have Spell Storing; if the bolts had it, there'd be 20 spells stored against the next big battle...
Edit #2: Even with the feat, the attack would be at -2, just like the magus's spellstrike.
I also think it should be a swift for the creature hit to remove the "taser"
Umm, that's an immediate action, isn't it? It's occurring on the PC's turn. Is every foe able to perform this immediate action? I was about to say "for free," but that's not quite right, since it uses up the foe's immediate/swift action for their next turn. Still, lots of creatures can't do much with an immediate/swift action, so it would be free for them. Maybe it should be an AoO.
Removing the taser from yourself should occur on the turn of the creature struck with the Taser, so Swift action makes sense.
Removing the taser from yourself should occur on the turn of the creature struck with the Taser, so Swift action makes sense.
I thought that the zap was being delivered after the hit, same round; that leaving the wire just sitting there till the shooter's next round was too chancy.
Unless the character's a Magus (Which I feel the OP probably would have shared, because it's incredibly relevant) they wouldn't be able to do it in the same round.
Unless the character's a Magus (Which I feel the OP probably would have shared, because it's incredibly relevant) they wouldn't be able to do it in the same round.
That's why I, a few paragraphs earlier, recommended a feat. It would certainly limit future hijinks.
All in all, a crossbow of Spell Storing would be the simplest solution...
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It's one thing to be creative. Trying to have one's character use your real world knowledge of genre-inappropriate topics (especially science/physics in a swords n sorcery setting) is another thing.
With regards to the OP, the player wants to "invent" a taser. What in-universe reasons would a character have to a) be inspired to even try to replicate such a device and b) try to do such a real-world gadget rather than use something "tried and true" like a Reach metamegic effect on the touching grasp?
I like to facilitate creativity, but it's still a roleplaying game. Players are not playing characters that are transplants from 21st century earth (well.. unless they ARE playing exactly that in your campaign...). Be creative by working with the campaign genre rather than against it.
It's one thing to be creative. Trying to have one's character use your real world knowledge of genre-inappropriate topics (especially science/physics in a swords n sorcery setting) is another thing.
With regards to the OP, the player wants to "invent" a taser. What in-universe reasons would a character have to a) be inspired to even try to replicate such a device and b) try to do such a real-world gadget rather than use something "tried and true" like a Reach metamegic effect on the touching grasp?
I like to facilitate creativity, but it's still a roleplaying game. Players are not playing characters that are transplants from 21st century earth (well.. unless they ARE playing exactly that in your campaign...). Be creative by working with the campaign genre rather than against it.
He did mention repeatedly Knowledge(Engineering). Conductivity and flow of electricity are simple engineering concepts. As for inspiration how about ANY of the many other weapons that electrocute people or maybe he witnessed a spellcaster using lightning magic on any form of metal/water/conductive material.
At OP.I would call this entirely fair with just a tiny cost increase so long as the wire can be broken in between bolt firing and shocking. Otherwise just call it spell storing ammo with a price increase for being ranged
I'd make it a feat. The feat should be weaker when compared to a Magus or Arcane Archer.
Shocking Shot:
As a full-round action, cast Shocking Grasp and then fire a special bolt from your crossbow. If the bolt hits, it deals normal weapon damage, plus the damage from Shocking Grasp. Whether it hits or not, the spell is discharged and can't be saved for future attacks.
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He did mention repeatedly Knowledge(Engineering). Conductivity and flow of electricity are simple engineering concepts.
It is NOW. But there's a reason that one of Ben Franklin's most famous innovations (and he had a LOT of them) was his work with electricity. At the time people didn't roll their eyes and say "Everybody knows that metal conducts electricity. Gosh! That whole key/kite thing was stupid/dangerous and didn't discover anything new!".
And frankly - I always got the impression that Knowledge: Engineering was intended to be for buildings/bridges type engineering etc. (especially due to the checks they give you with it in APs & modules)
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It's one thing to be creative. Trying to have one's character use your real world knowledge of genre-inappropriate topics (especially science/physics in a swords n sorcery setting) is another thing.
With regards to the OP, the player wants to "invent" a taser. What in-universe reasons would a character have to a) be inspired to even try to replicate such a device and b) try to do such a real-world gadget rather than use something "tried and true" like a Reach metamegic effect on the touching grasp?
I like to facilitate creativity, but it's still a roleplaying game. Players are not playing characters that are transplants from 21st century earth (well.. unless they ARE playing exactly that in your campaign...). Be creative by working with the campaign genre rather than against it.
He did mention repeatedly Knowledge(Engineering). Conductivity and flow of electricity are simple engineering concepts. As for inspiration how about ANY of the many other weapons that electrocute people or maybe he witnessed a spellcaster using lightning magic on any form of metal/water/conductive material.
At OP.I would call this entirely fair with just a tiny cost increase so long as the wire can be broken in between bolt firing and shocking. Otherwise just call it spell storing ammo with a price increase for being ranged
If it was that simple, this device should have already been invented and in use for a long time
Since that is apparently not the case here, the player is indeed using OOC knowledge to the benefit of his character
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Sometimes you get creativity... than other times you get players who insist that a bag of flour is all you need to blow up a building.
I would tell the player practically it's just not going to work.
The character would need to be able to shoot the bow/crossbow as a standard action and then cast the spell on the same turn as a standard action. The only class that can get close to that is the magus, and only if they take the Myrmadarch or Eldritch Archer archetypes (and if they take those then this shenanigans is unnecessary). Otherwise, after you shoot them they spend some sort of action (undecided) to break or remove the wires.
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Agreed that in real life Benjamin Franklin/Tesla electrical innovations were a big deal and explored concepts. I was arguing that among highly intelligent people who typically learn to create electricity by lv1, who are known for inventing new stuff, they might know something about how electricity works. In a world where alchemy(chemistry) has reached the point it can make living creatures, where biology has reached a point where it can fuse the dna of existing creatures with almost no side effects, mechanical engineering can make colossal sized clockwork creatures, an understanding of conductivity is somewhat basic even if you discard the Technology books. To each dm his own what Knowledge(engineering) includes
Also just because an idea is simple doesn't mean it hasn't been thought of before. I gave several examples of things that might have inspired the idea. As for why its not in use it could be as simple as the double standard action requirement. Maguses are seldom ranged. Lv9+ wizards have better 5th level slots than quickened shocking grasp and are typically bad shots with a crossbow. In addition there is some design issues that were mentioned by other people. In summary it might not have wide spread use because it simply isn't practical for most people particularly since most people don't use magic in the first place.
It's pretty hard to think of something for your character to invent that doesn't pull something from modern ideas, since we're all modern people. It's entirely reasonable for a character to think up an idea in a setting with magic (And sci-fi tech, depending) that has a similar effect as something we have in the modern world.
"Hey, I don't have the sheer magical power to cast a Reaching Shocking Grasp, how can I use my Engineering knowledge to compensate for this."
*Time*
"I've got it! I'll use something that carries electricity, and shoot it at someone!"
It's really not a stretch. Even if it was, fun's the most important thing, and this isn't breaking the game for the player to have a little bit of fun.
I'd have them just go with a spellstoring weapon. Cast it into the weapon to "charge the battery" and fluff it with the wires and whatnot.
Alternately, for the "mundane" version, Launching crossbow with Bottled Lightning.
Couldn't he have someone else fire the crossbow while he casts the spell on the wire?
I always feel these kinds of situations are tricky. On the one hand, creativity should be rewarded, on the other its not always easy to foresee the consequences both of the idea itself in practice and of the precedent it sets to make such allowances.
So, in the end, I've drawn the line erring on the side of caution, disallowing such premeditated creativity, or, more specifically, inventiveness, especially when it should be repeatable, like in your case. Singular instances of spontaneous strokes of genius are still great though!
Really, to me, this issue is solved better with a creative reimagining of the Reach Spell feat or a Spellstoring Crossbow or whatever.
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In my post upthread I had meant to mention something about in-universe historical precedent but I forgot to. So I'm glad others have since brought it up, and I agree completely with them.
When a player comes up with an idea like that mentioned in the OP, the GM has a couple metagame decisions to make. "Do I even want this to a part of my game from now on?" isn't even one of them that I'm mentioning.
Instead, I'm referring to "Has anything like this been invented/done before?" If so, then you have a baseline for figuring out how hard/easy the player's imaginative task should be. However, if the answer is "No, this has never been done before in the history of the campaign setting" then you have a tougher ball of wax. I feel it's important to then ask and answer "why has noone ever done this before...". In all honesty, in a setting like Golarion's that not only spans thousands of recorded years, it features thousands of years of technological stagnation. When a player wants to MacGuyver something up in that kind of context, answering "No, it's just impossible" isn't automatically an unreasonable response. In a context like the Golarion campaign setting, it'd be more reasonable to just apply the Reach metamagic to the Shocking Grasp than reskin a modern taser as a shocking grasp fantasy device.
Of course, in your own invented setting YMMV.
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TL;DR This player wants a mundane stun gun to cast shocking grasp through. I am intrigued but cautious.
...
Possible Future Problems
- Am I stepping over other solutions? (Are there other items out there?)
...
On a different train of thought, there ARE actual taser devices already available for Pathfinder in the Technology Guide (alien/sci fi tech for your Pathfinder game). For regular denizens of Golarion they require the special Technologist feat to design/repair/recharge, but IIRC they don't require anything special to actually USE. Aside, of course, exotic weapon proficiency to avoid non-proficient penalties on the attack roll.
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I'd severely limit it:
1) to the length of the wire. On a miss roll a d% vs 40% chance the bolt going over their head / to the side and extending past the copper wire, snapping it at the midpoint. Meaning the range will be halfed next time you try using that wire.
2)To hits that do a X or higher damage. Bolts have wooden shafts. If you deal X or less damage, the bolt won't bury itself in the target deep enough for the wire to touch the intended target. Maybe instead of damage numbers, treat it as concealment, so the player won't know if it hit hard enough when casting the spell?
I believe adventurers armory had ways to channel some spells with various tools (Burning hands with alchemist fire is the one I see used most often). Maybe hand him that to look over.
deusvult: Even better! It already exists (mostly).
As for the original persons intent, shocking grasp effects creatures or objects. So it would deal its damage to the copper wire. Projectile weapon has hardness 5, hp 5. A chain has 10hardness 5hp so this seems reasonable. Apply half damage of the spell to the copper wire. It doesn't conduct. (I.e. this idea won't work).
At the very least, I'd have him use Barbed arrows, and require a successful grapple check. (This means a critical hit was required) If grappled, then the arrow stuck, and he could cast the spell through the rope. They could also cut the copper, which I'd probably call 0hardness 1hp.
Allright, You have missed the point. Suppose that you rule that the bolt is stuck inside of him. Why doesn't the bad guy/monster sever the cord during his turn? You have the following Mage turn: Aim, and fire bolt, drop crossbow. Bad guy turn: Gets hit, draws dagger, severs cord.
Not to mention, Copper WIRE is loose, but it still comes apart quite easily. (as I found out When I strip them for work. One sharp yank, and it comes apart.)
That's fine, it's using up their action of that kind to remove the bolt, and they still got shot. Odds are good that at some point the bad guy's going to decide to not remove it (Either because he doesn't know what it does, which is very likely, or because it's tactically better to just do whatever else and eat the damage.) and then he'll get his ass shocked.
It's not great, but it's not awful. Which is good for something like this.
TL;DR This player wants a mundane stun gun to cast shocking grasp through. I am intrigued but cautious.
You will tell us, won't you, what you end up ruling?
That's fine, it's using up their action of that kind to remove the bolt, and they still got shot. Odds are good that at some point the bad guy's going to decide to not remove it (Either because he doesn't know what it does, which is very likely, or because it's tactically better to just do whatever else and eat the damage.) and then he'll get his ass shocked.
It's not great, but it's not awful. Which is good for something like this.
First thing I thought of is after using this a couple times, an informed Target could use the line to send a spell back at the shooter.
That'd certainly shock the player.
I'll see myself out.
I'd price it as a kind of special ammunition, with a Reach Metamagic Rod as the base.
That costs 3000 gp, and works 3 times per day. Generally speaking, ammunition cost is the price of a magic enhancement divided by 50 (so for example, a bundle of 50 +1 arrows is 2000 gp, or 40 gp apiece). So 60 gp a pop.
Though I would also reasonably apply something akin to the "changed slot" clause, and double the price. Making this "Conductive Bolt" 120 gp.
I'd also require that the ammo be "charged" before being fired. Essentially, if the bolt misses the spell is wasted, and the charge lasts no longer than a round.
You could rule that the modified crossbow counts as a Crank Crossbow, an exotic weapon, for proficiency. It may also require Barbed Bolts to stick into the victim.
You also need to remember that Shocking Grasp isn't mundane electricity. It doesn't start fires just by hitting something and it doesn't work exactly like a stun gun (unless maybe it's used with Merciful Spell to deal nonlethal); it deals electricity damage. The conductive bonus in the spell does indicate that it MIGHT be able to travel through the wire (though the spell itself only cites metal objects of significant size), but I'd say the spell would have to be cast on the wire (as opposed to through it like a Spellstrike) and it would only be able to deal damage like the spell says unless something contextual particularly made sense (maybe like igniting flammable oil).
Over all, I think i would say "Shocking grasp is a lot like the Emperor's lighting attack from return of the jedi. You are shooting lighting from your fingers
It's more like a super-powered joy buzzer. You have to physically touch them.
Since this scales up much better than a +1 Crossbow with the Shock Special Ability and the +2 Crossbow with Shocking Burst, make sure the gp cost for creating it or using it scales accordingly.
Agreed that in real life Benjamin Franklin/Tesla electrical innovations were a big deal and explored concepts. I was arguing that among highly intelligent people who typically learn to create electricity by lv1, who are known for inventing new stuff, they might know something about how electricity works. In a world where alchemy(chemistry) has reached the point it can make living creatures, where biology has reached a point where it can fuse the dna of existing creatures with almost no side effects, mechanical engineering can make colossal sized clockwork creatures, an understanding of conductivity is somewhat basic even if you discard the Technology books. To each dm his own what Knowledge(engineering) includes
That's not necessarily true. For one thing, alchemy never worked in real life. Alchemy IS NOT, NEVER WAS, chemistry, any more than astrology was astronomy or physics. What works in fantasy worlds, does becaue magic provides shortcuts that don't exsist in real life. Because of the reliance of those short cuts, you don't have the drive to discover the sicence and tech you do in the real world, so the argument for technological advancment presented above is a false one. It's more likely that the short cuts of magic would divert civilisations from the path of true technological and biological advancement.
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Oh, a creative player, eh? A wise guy, eh? A swift thump upside the head is usually enough whenever my players get these urges. That, or a trusty bucket of cold water.
Seriously though, I've had various players throughout the years try to invent the most ridiculous things claiming it was common sense, or attempting to recreate inventions we have because "my character is smarter than me, so he must know how it's done". Unless you really want to go down this rabbit hole, I'd say you instead suggest a preexisting item that does a similar thing. Hodgepodge weapon crafting mechanics barely work in video games, and I don't think they work very well in the Pathfinder rule set.
Well, I suppose the cold water would maybe mess with the device.