One idea I've come across that I thought was pretty cool, but haven't tried yet: Everyone rolls up an array of 4d6 drop low, then everyone gets to choose one of the arrays, that way no one's stuck with something terrible, but you could still see some interesting choices between different mixes of high and low stats.
One idea I've come across that I thought was pretty cool, but haven't tried yet: Everyone rolls up an array of 4d6 drop low, then everyone gets to choose one of the arrays, that way no one's stuck with something terrible, but you could still see some interesting choices between different mixes of high and low stats.
iv'e used that one and it helps but I still have unlucky players whose like hmm i guess ill take that array it has a 16 and a 12 at least (all the rest being penalties.) The lucky players are like hmm ill go with this array cause of the 3-15's 13 17 and 18.
In my own IRL group our DM have put in a 15pt setup, and it have kinda stuck in my own theorycrafting of other characters where i try to get concepts to work with 15pt and if a game will later give me more points i could just upgrade the concept with the new attributes without much change.
However i detest the rolling of stats, though its in my nature to prefer creation of characters to be consistent from game to game, and not to forced to make something "random" just for the sake of being random.
Hell its not about the whole "role vs roll" thing either, i just want to make the character i want. Rolling do no favors to fulfill that wish what so ever.
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1) That 15pts are the norm. Actually, it lists roll 4d6 drop lowest as the norm, point buy as an alternative, and 15pts as the standard way of doing the alternative. But if you study the average point buy result of random rolling, you end up at about 19pt buy. (It's a fairly complicated calculation especially when you try to factor in people rerolling PCs whose stats match the "hopeless" configuration.Rerolling "hopeless" configurations is not part of the standard method, which simply says "roll 4d6 drop lowest 6 times and assign as you want". Rerolls increase the point-buy value beyond what was intended or stated.
Hmm, odd. Wonder when that disappeared, could have sworn it was in there.
Shows how much faith I have in random rolling I guess.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Back in 1e you could reroll any character that didn't qualify for any class, but that required truly atrocious rolls. You basically needed two stats below 5 or no stat of at least 9. An array of 4 6 6 6 6 9 was entirely playable, just very pathetic.
But that was about the only official reroll rule.
One problem with comparing the average PB value of rolling to the PB values is it ignores the utility of choice. Rolling stats in general should give you a higher PB than buying them, because choosing your exact stats is strong. For example, rolling can produce 11s, which are almost never taken in PB - these drive up the PB value of the rolled stats without actually increasing character effectiveness.
At least it is if you roleplay instead of rollplay.
Ironic given the statement is in support of additional rolls...
If you "roleplay instead of rollplay", as you put it, then why do you even bother with stats to begin with? Why do you even play pathfinder? I've played my share of free-form roleplaying games and had a blast, but if the game you are playing marginalizes great power variations it makes me wonder why you bother using such a rigid system with so many complicated rules to remember in the first place.
The classic reason why 10 or 15 point buy is considered death for MAD classes is the sheer number of points you need to get 'good' scores in what you need. Stereotypically, a wizard will boost INT, keep CON somewhere positive, invest a couple points in DEX, and dump anything else. A barbarian or fighter will pump STR, keep CON highish, have a few DEX, and 8-out the mental stats (the 'S' in BSF came about for a reason).
Now, Mona the Monk? Even unchained ... Str to hit and damage, especially as she's effectively TWF with a pair of clubs or a quarterstaff. Dex and Wis have their uses there. Con because you can't punch someone from the back row.
SAD classes are easier to build in that sense, and give a little more freedom, in case you want your wizard to have Str 14 for some weird reason. ('He carries a LOT of spell components!') You might be able to make a decent monk in a low point-buy ... but there's little freedom to deviate from the One True Build.
I think high point buy looks like it makes MAD classes more viable, but I think it's exactly the opposite. I've already elaborated much on this in my previous post.
But to emphasize, someone having a 14 instead of a 12 might have a 100% bonus increase, but this is only effectively a 5% result increase. With very low point buy, odds are much more likely that maximum stats will be around 14. The SAD will probably get a 16 and dump more, while the MAD class will get a bunch of 14s. If the fighter takes a 16 str and the rogue takes a 14 str, that's just a 5% better odd to hit. But if you increase the point buy, the rogue will probably improve stats that are lower than 14, do less dumping, or improve another stat than str, while the fighter will certainly go for his 18, resulting in a 10% hit discrepancy. On top of the class 5% divergence. On the opposite hand, if everyone had 10 on all stats, there'd be no hit % discrepancy.
The more your point buy limit increases, the more the SAD classes can focus and specialize to get extremely good at what they do, whereas the MAD classes just marginally become better at everything. If the SAD class gets enough points to easily buy themselves an 18 without serious dumping, then yes, the MAD class will need a huge amount of points to be similarly effective. But that's only true at high point buy limits.
The point is, you don't need "good" scores, unless everyone else has them. It's the GM's job to present adequately challenging encounters. If everyone has low stats, encounters will be adjusted accordingly. And the more you level everyone's stats, the less being MAD becomes an issue.
The highest points is best... then again, as a DM I like players who can handle rough situations early, and as a player, I like chars that are MAD (like the monk), or not too weak anywhere (I hate to have to dump stats just because I don't have the point to suit my original concept)
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I've scrapped point buy and rolling in favor of stat arrays. The stat array I use in generous for MAD characters, but limits SAD characters. I personally use 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11.
I also use the background skill system to give extra skills to everyone (that usually have very little mechanical impact on the game) as well as increasing the skill ranks per level of all non-int based classes to 4+int.
I also use automatic bonus progression.
Capping stats at generation to 18 really helps to make characters more broad and minimize "optimization" at early levels. Automatic bonus progression also helps to keep power gains on a set track that is usually slower than what players would get by investing their wealth into exactly what they want and ignoring other things, again making for more well rounded characters.
Overall these things have made my groups less optimized and more rounded which has made the game more fun because people can contribute more to more situations (than what they're optimizing for) while still being mostly as effective (your modifiers will typically be 1 or 2 points lower than they might otherwise be for optimized characters).
I really enjoy 20 point buy plus the background skills system. Just feels good.
We used to roll, but that stopped after we had a set of rolls produce (and we all witnessed it happen) an 18, 18, 18, 17, 17, 16 (no, not loaded dice, just real - albeit unlikely - statistical variance.) The player got to play that character and we went to point buy and never looked back.
For Wrath of the Righteous, we went with a 10-point buy and a strict party of only four players; it helped a lot and made the campaign very enjoyable.
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My recommendation is to use stat arrays and a more balanced curve for attribute increases from leveling. There are many ways to accomplish this, but the following is what I use.
Arrays:
16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8
17, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8
18, 12, 12, 10, 8, 8
Level Increases (no ability score can be increased by more than +1 at each level):
2) +1
4) +3
6) +1
8) +3
10) +2
12) +3
14) +2
16) +4
18) +3
20) +4
All items that give an enhancement bonus to attributes are removed.
MATH QUESTIONS!!!!
At least it is if you roleplay instead of rollplay.Ironic given the statement is in support of additional rolls...
If you "roleplay instead of rollplay", as you put it, then why do you even bother with stats to begin with? Why do you even play pathfinder? I've played my share of free-form roleplaying games and had a blast, but if the game you are playing marginalizes great power variations it makes me wonder why you bother using such a rigid system with so many complicated rules to remember in the first place.
The classic reason why 10 or 15 point buy is considered death for MAD classes is the sheer number of points you need to get 'good' scores in what you need. Stereotypically, a wizard will boost INT, keep CON somewhere positive, invest a couple points in DEX, and dump anything else. A barbarian or fighter will pump STR, keep CON highish, have a few DEX, and 8-out the mental stats (the 'S' in BSF came about for a reason).
Now, Mona the Monk? Even unchained ... Str to hit and damage, especially as she's effectively TWF with a pair of clubs or a quarterstaff. Dex and Wis have their uses there. Con because you can't punch someone from the back row.
SAD classes are easier to build in that sense, and give a little more freedom, in case you want your wizard to have Str 14 for some weird reason. ('He carries a LOT of spell components!') You might be able to make a decent monk in a low point-buy ... but there's little freedom to deviate from the One True Build.
I think high point buy looks like it makes MAD classes more viable, but I think it's exactly the opposite. I've already elaborated much on this in my previous post.
But to emphasize, someone having a 14 instead of a 12 might have a 100% bonus increase, but this is only effectively a 5% result increase. With very low point buy, odds are much more likely that maximum stats will be around 14. The SAD will probably get a 16 and dump more, while the MAD class will get a...
Your reasoning is erroneous as it assumes several 14s are as impactful as an 18 where it matters.
If you set up point buy arrays for each class, this becomes obvious.
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One thing I'm interested in examining is giving a pool for race points and point buy. For example, you have 30 points for race and point buy. If you go with a more exotic race, you have less points for stats. If you want to play a kobold, you are a superior kobold.
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If people's point buy characters are any indication, the average charisma on Golarion is less than 10.
Maybe that's just adventurers... after all if you just can't seem to socialize properly you may only be able to find your place out wandering in the world with the rest of the murder hobosmalcontents.
One of the problems in figuring out the point buy equivalent of 4d6 drop lowest 1 is that this rolling system can give you ability scores below the lowest that point buy defines a cost/refund for (7). What do people do to figure this in?
Back in the day we used to reroll results that were less than seven.
I once played a 2nd edition character that rolled a 3 using 4d6 drop the lowest.
Played him as a pacifist healer. No armor or weapons.
...I think high point buy looks like it makes MAD classes more viable, but I think it's exactly the opposite. I've already elaborated much on this in my previous post.
But to emphasize, someone having a 14 instead of a 12 might have a 100% bonus increase, but this is only effectively a 5% result increase. With very low point buy, odds are much more likely that maximum stats will be around 14. The SAD will probably get a 16 and dump more,
The MAD character will wind up with more total bonuses than a character that dumped everything into a single stat or two. The MAD character will also typically have ways to add multiple stats together for a single purpose.
The MAD character 'may' start out slightly weaker, but with more ways to buy the "next cheapest +1" he will eventually overtake most SAD classes in his areas of focus.
My next campaign is going to be 'pick whatever'.
I've done this, and assuming that everybody is more or less on the same page for what they want and they're not just trying to play the most powerful thing imaginable, it works out pretty well.
I just said "come up with your character and his or her backstory, and write down the stat array that you think best describes who this person is and check with me to see if it's reasonable" and nobody gave me anything out of bounds.
The one thing that stood up is that everybody was significantly more charismatic. People were free to just say "he's a bit taciturn, but fairly agreeable with a good sense of humor so his charisma is 12" without putting themselves at a mechanical disadvantage, so they did.
...I think high point buy looks like it makes MAD classes more viable, but I think it's exactly the opposite. I've already elaborated much on this in my previous post.
But to emphasize, someone having a 14 instead of a 12 might have a 100% bonus increase, but this is only effectively a 5% result increase. With very low point buy, odds are much more likely that maximum stats will be around 14. The SAD will probably get a 16 and dump more,
The MAD character will wind up with more total bonuses than a character that dumped everything into a single stat or two. The MAD character will also typically have ways to add multiple stats together for a single purpose.
The MAD character 'may' start out slightly weaker, but with more ways to buy the "next cheapest +1" he will eventually overtake most SAD classes in his areas of focus.
Why did you quote me for something I didn't say? XD
More total bonuses is not impactful in this game. In 5E it is, but in PF it's all about inflated challenges.
I'm gonna go against the masses and agree that the strength of SAD classes is overstated. Sure, they only need that one stat, but they need that stat. A fighter or a monk derives a lot of his strength from multiple strikes or powers that don't entirely hinge on having a high stat, where as a Wizard needs a certain stat to cast certain levels of spells.
As previously stated, the next +1 isn't a big deal for a fighter, but the wizard can't cast higher level spells. I think a lower stat buy would, converse to the accepted theory, actually help MAD classes.
And while we are on the subject, what is everyone's problem with dropping stats? It doesn't offer you that much of an additional boost and it gives your character statistical/mechanical weaknesses. In fact, I frequently roll characters with low Wis that are oblivious and easily manipulated/lied to. It's fun.
SAD classes are only negatively impacted by a low point buy if the point buy is so low they can't reasonably have enough casting stat to cast all their spells.
If a SAD class can manage 15 in it's casting stat to start with then it's pretty much golden, everything else is just gravy. Why? The classic wizard who never casts a spell with a saving throw. You just cast all sorts of buff spells and summoning and everything else. You're still very powerful, and without you all your friends suck real bad because they had to do more with even less point than you did.
I'm gonna go against the masses and agree that the strength of SAD classes is overstated. Sure, they only need that one stat, but they need that stat. A fighter or a monk derives a lot of his strength from multiple strikes or powers that don't entirely hinge on having a high stat, where as a Wizard needs a certain stat to cast certain levels of spells.
Most MAD characters depend upon different ability scores for different things. SAD classes get most of their things from a single ability score. Give that Monk Deadly Agility and they can suddenly have crazy high AC and deal respectable damage right out of the gate.
As previously stated, the next +1 isn't a big deal for a fighter, but the wizard can't cast higher level spells. I think a lower stat buy would, converse to the accepted theory, actually help MAD classes.
Minimum stat requirements are a joke. You can afford 12 dex, 12 con, 18 int(or 14 dex, 10 con) on a ratfolk wizard with a 0pt buy. Drop that to 16 int if you don't feel like dumping wisdom.
A wizard is mildly hindered by having literally no points. Try making a monk on that point buy that doesn't suck terribly.
And while we are on the subject, what is everyone's problem with dropping stats? It doesn't offer you that much of an additional boost and it gives your character statistical/mechanical weaknesses. In fact, I frequently roll characters with low Wis that are oblivious and easily manipulated/lied to. It's fun.
Stat dumping is usually done to ability scores that don't matter. It doesn't create particularly meaningful weaknesses. Strength for casters and dex based combatants, and Charisma for...basically everyone that isn't charisma focused.
Strength only helps some types of weapon damage, carrying capacity, a few easily skipped skills and strength checks. If you don't need strength for damage, can work around the carrying capacity limitations (hello mithral and handy haversacks), carry some cheap magic items to laugh at those skills when they rarely come up and...well, frankly anyone who isn't rocking a very high strength modifier sucks at strength checks, so that doesn't justify not dumping.
Charisma only affects checks vs resisting some charm orders and some skills, mostly social ones. Charisma only provides a small boost against charm spells unless the victim is a charisma based caster, so that doesn't matter. Charisma based skills require serious investment even with decent charisma, so if you aren't making that anyway then it is more or less useless and can be dumped aggressively.
Wisdom is one of the worst possible examples. It is about tied with dexterity and just short of Constitution as something you should not go without unless your class provides mitigation for dumping it.
More total bonuses is not impactful in this game. In 5E it is, but in PF it's all about inflated challenges.
Lets look at damage, initiative and AC on my kensai.
He started out with a 17 dexterity and 15 intelligence. Not particularly high considering most of the people on this thread are talking 18-20 for primary stats.
Initially he gets +3 to hit and damage - lower than a Swashbuckler that went all in on dexterity.
He is, however, adding an extra +2 to AC, matching the +5 bonus the Swashbuckler is receiving from maxing out a 20 dexterity.
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A few levels later
The swashbuckler put his level increase into dex and bought a +2 dex belt (23). The magus put his level increase into dex and bought both a +2 dex belt and a +2 intelligence belt (20, 17) (half the price of a +4 dex belt)
The kensai gets +5 to hit and damage (now only 1 pt. below the swashbuckler), gets +8 to initiative and AC (+3 over the swash).
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Continue on a few more levels. Swashbuckler has a 26 dex, magus has a 22 dex, 20 intelligence.
Kensai now has a reliable means to add intelligence to damage.
Kensai now gets +6 to hit, +11 to damage (-2, +3), +11 to AC and initiative (both +3 over the swashbuckler)
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Past this point, the kensai is only ever +1 or +2 behind the swashbuckler in dexterity, but his intelligence bonuses continue to scale. By splitting bonuses between two stats, he is buying in at a lower initial cost. Eventually all dexterity items will even out, but the kensai will have substantial advantage by adding intelligence as an additional stat to many combat calculations.
I don't follow your post at all. What is your point?
Also, why are you using one of the MADdest classes as a counterexample?
None of this matters when discussing Pathfinder balance. The magus is just going to be better by being a magus regardless of point buy. The only relevant factors to determining the power level of Pathfinder are system mastery, class choice, and highest single attribute, in roughly that order. Total point buy value isn't really in the conversation
/sigh
I could have just as easily written the example for a monk, or paladin. It's not about a specific class, it's how certain MAD classes allow you to stack bonuses from multiple attributes.
And it does work in a lower point buy game. Attribute cost scales as you assign high state. A cost the MAD character avoids by spreading his points out between two stats that will later stack.
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Honestly, as others have said, the best point buy level is the point buy level you and your group like the most. As a practical matter, the GM should be developing encounters based on how effective the party is. So, if everyone has 18s across the board, odds are the encounters are going to be "more difficult" to compensate.
The other thing is that regardless of what point buy you use, you are still going to run into the issues of "roleplay vs. rollplay". For the record, both styles are perfectly fine. After all, if you are having fun, then you are doing it right. However, I've seen players with a +22 in a skill step aside because another player has a +24. The +22 player believes it "unwise" to try to disable the trap. Similarly, I've had groups get into a lot of easily avoidable fights (including fights that seemed fairly clearly stacked against them) because they didn't even bother to try to talk their way out of it since "None of us are good at Diplomacy". Mind you, they had never actually attempted Diplomacy, but just decided that they all suck at it because they didn't have a big bonus to it.
The thing to keep in mind is that 10 is an average stat in the world (or is it 8? can't recall). As such, even the BSF is likely to at least be decently social in many situations, much less the character that just left Cha at 10 and is rolling straight dice. I think that this can sometimes be seen as an advantage for some groups with a lower point buy. Nobody is going to be particularly stellar at a lot of skills and as such, most of the group will give it a go at some point. Not always of course, but often. Again, its going to vary from group to group.
As for rolling, I do agree that rolling can be fun. However, it can also be very frustrating. If everyone comes to the first session with their character already made, odds are that most, if not all, of the characters will have defied the odds and have scores that are well above the expected average. If you spend the first session rolling up characters, then its almost certain that one player at least will be seen as being at a relatively clear disadvantage ability score wise. Again, this isn't necessarily a problem, but it can lead to a lot of frustration. Point buy makes it easy to ensure that nobody "cheated" and that everybody is on an equal footing.
One other thing to point out about MAD vs. SAD is that very frequently, regardless of the point buy, the MAD character will still lag a bit behind the SAD character in combat. However, most MAD characters can make up for it in utility, whether it be some spell casting, buffs to the party, or having a host of skill points. Whether or not the GM sets the campaign up to allow the MAD character to take advantage of that though is a different story.
Finally, although I typically go with point buy now, I will say that if I had more time to play, I would actually love to go hard core and roll 3d6 assign in order and figure out what to do. I think it would make for a fun game on occasion. However, as I barely have time to GM one game and play in another, its sadly, something that is unlikely to ever happen. With limited play time available I just prefer to go with a point buy and know that any frustration I feel is likely my own fault. :)
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One could assign classes specific point-buy values, perhaps help alleviate the MADness vs SADness.
Give Monks 25 point-buy, Paladins 20 point-buy, Wizards 15 point-buy. Establish the values before people chose their class, so everyone knows exactly what they are getting when they chose that class.
One could assign classes specific point-buy values, perhaps help alleviate the MADness vs SADness.
Give Monks 25 point-buy, Paladins 20 point-buy, Wizards 15 point-buy. Establish the values before people chose their class, so everyone knows exactly what they are getting when they chose that class.
Soooo...I can start as a Monk, then take my second level in...Wizard?
One could assign classes specific point-buy values, perhaps help alleviate the MADness vs SADness.
Give Monks 25 point-buy, Paladins 20 point-buy, Wizards 15 point-buy. Establish the values before people chose their class, so everyone knows exactly what they are getting when they chose that class.
I play a monk1 get my 25 point-buy and then multiclass into what I want my real class to be. Congrats, 25pt buy on any class, non-casters get the slightly better deal on this dip.
But seriously, how many druids dip monk for the wis to AC while whildshaped? How bad would it be for a cleric to dip monk? Like monk is a really good 1lv dip class AND has archetypes to not lose much for you dip. Just take the monk lv1 instead of at lv3-5 and benefit from the better stats.
And a caster's int is going to be a 20 if he wants it, you can do it on a 0pt buy. So giving more pt buy lets them have other stats too. I think it'd be harder to balance fights when the party has no stats compared to a party with a little survivability stats. 7/7/9/20/7/7
Cause a wizard, first to go are CHA and STR, the useless stats. Then next is probably dex and wis. Then con. PT wont touch a wizards int, just all the other stats.
That's why they say higher point buys are nice for MAD classes. A wizard is having a 20 int off of 0pt buy and he could actually work and survive. A monk pulling an 18str so he can hit things using a 0pt buy has 18/10/10/7/8/7 this monk is dead with no AC and no HP, and it needs to be in combat to do his job.
Primary stats for a class aren't touched with lower point buys, only the secondary or tertiary stats.
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On the flipside, however, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. The guy that never dares anything much because his stats don't amount to anything much isn't really having much more of an adventure than the guy who can at least try.I've had players with characters ranging from 11 to 35 equivalent point-buy stats in the same game. The 11 point-buy equivalent was a MAD stat array, to further the pain. I can't say that I noticed a big difference in the characters' power level. If anything, the 35 point-buy equivalent was the one falling behind for a while, due to build experimentation failure. After I allowed him to retrain for free, the raw stat difference wasn't noticeable.
The players, however. It was their behavior that made a big difference. The '11 point-buy equivalent player' was extremely aware of his character's flaws and shortcomings. The '35 point-buy equivalent player' on the other hand, had hubris. He failed at a lot more, because he attempted a lot more (unfavorable) tasks on the fly. The '11 point-buy equivalent player' waited and planned out his fewer actions way more carefully (because he had to).
Which is how I see it as well. More fun, to me, to be able to take a lot of risks, even if sometimes it ends poorly, then be constantly forced to play like a coward, because the build only allows limited opportunities of effectiveness. All of this with the consideration of power gaps among party members, because both everyone playing super cautious and every playing super reckless are as likely to cause TPW.
stuff about point buy
Your whole post seems to hinge on the idea that a character can't get a sufficiently high stat in their primary attribute without a high point buy, which isn't really the case at all. Even at extremely low PB values it's not particularly hard for a SAD character to get a 16 or 18 in their starting stat.
The reason higher PB helps MAD classes is merely an issue of RoI. My wizard will appreciate having extra dex and con and won't mind not having to dump charisma or strength as hard, but ultimately having extra dex and con is only mildly helpful, having extra strength less so and extra charisma provides virtually no benefit.
You also make a big deal about how higher PB MAD characters don't gain much because a couple +1s are fairly marginal gains, but that's the same for a SAD character, so that's kind of a moot point so I'm not sure why you make it.
In fact you can make the argument even more strongly for SAD classes. Going from a preracial 16 to a preracial 18 is 7 points, which means it costs a tremendous amount of resources and provides very little gain, to the point where it's very arguably not worth the cost.
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@Bwang: It might be entertaining to watch a level one Monk with high intelligence, and I'm not sure the trade would be worth it. However, you made your point multiclassing is something I hadn't considered.
I guess I was thinking the stat array would apply to people that wanted to stay true to a concept, not thinking from a power gaming perspective.
@Chess Pwn: Forgive me if I am not understanding, but you're basically saying that regardless of the point buy, the SAD classes will be relatively unaffected. Making a level one dip into monk fairly pointless, it may not be that way for other classes such as the Cleric or Druid example you were using, but I was considering giving them 20-point buy in this system anyway, is one level of delayed casting really worth the increased ability scores? But even so, that offers more options and makes the classes with the higher point buys more attractive, I guess that seems like a win-win to me.
it's two fold.
1 yes, PT doesn't touch the primary stat of a character, only the secondary and tertiary stats. So if everyone is on the same pt-buy it helps those classes that can stay at range and only need one stat to work and hurts melee people who want con and dex to survive while having their primary str to kill things.
2, if you have different point buys having an extra 10pt buy could easily be considered worth for your character. Delay a full-caster one level and they are the same progression as a sorcerer and can still be at full caster level, not the end of the world for a lot of people. Cause an extra 10 points turns a 10 dex and con into 14s.
And it doesn't really make more options. If EVERYONE does monk1 rest something else, there's no more diversity than everyone just doing all of something else. So the monk class itself isn't any more attractive of a class to play, just that starting as one makes you better at the game. Like, take a level of warrior NPC class and have a 30 or 35 pt buy. Okay, since I don't need to stick with that class I take the level for the nice stats and then go on to my real class.
Point-buy does not affect difficulty level. Point-buy affects number of viable builds.
Also 15 point buy was a math mistake, leaving players 6 PB points below 4d6 drop lowest, and discourages playing anything but a full caster.
If you want an enjoyable game, do 25 PB. 20 PB bare minimum.
Point buy value can definitely affect difficulty. Ask someone who has run the same AP for a group with 15 point buy and a group with 25 point buy. If you want an exclamation point, find someone who's run an AP with a 40+ point buy. It's like a walk on the beach.