Point buy value can definitely affect difficulty. Ask someone who has run the same AP for a group with 15 point buy and a group with 25 point buy.
I've done that. Multiple times. Didn't really notice a difference.
I don't see why point buy really would make that big a difference in the difficulty of a canned adventure. If your point buy gives people an extra +1 in their attack stat, how hard is to to just increase the defenses of everything by 1 and give them 1 more HP per HD?
These adjustments really aren't hard to do on the fly, if things are going too well for the party.
Reposting and slightly editing what I said in a related thread:
If a whole class is on the edge of non-functionality without dumping, the point buy is too low. If the point buy is just cramping something really out there like Reach Shaman (or Spirit Oracle) with Lore Spirit using Arcane Enlightenment to substitute for a Mystic Theurge, but not limiting basic concepts of a whole class, then it's probably okay. Hence the 20 point buy sweet spot. And PFS and several Paizo developers seem to agree, except that APs are apparently stuck at 15 point buy due to inertia tradition.
Also, 20 point buy gives some headroom for some adjustments that I would want to make anyway: (House Rule 1) Magic item bonuses don't qualify you for feats, higher level spells, or bonus spells (meaning you need those ability scores to be naturally high); (House Rule 2) NPCs can (although do not always) get the benefit of the same stats, Hero Points, and Traits that the PCs can get without needing to burn feats; (General Campaign Rework Directive 1) adversaries get rebuilt and/or receive better combat instructions for more optimal performance, etc.
^Wonder if they have been (not even on purpose) trying to compensate for people in practice using optimized 20 point buy . . . Would be best to just acknowledge consciously that this is what really needs to be done, and make it official.
Its a myth that a +1 equals a 5% increase.
A monk who hits for 20 damage on a roll of 11(pretty average) is getting 15.5% more damage from 2 extra strength.
It's a flat 5% increase to chance to hit. I don't think you are denying this, though.
Sure, it can be a greater than 5% increase to damage. Increasing the strength modifier to +4 from +3 is not a +1 damage difference, it's a +2. And yes, you can factor in chance to hit to add that to your average damage per round. But then it starts getting complicated... Because depending on your weapon, your other stats, and the other modifiers you have on hand, that will all ship up or down. A level 20 rogue doing a sneak attack with a composite bow (a ridiculous extreme example) would only do marginally better by improving its str modifier by 1 (assuming the bow even considers it). Composite bows aside, there are other builds and weapon combos that allow for dex and str to apply separately to either attack or damage. Increasing a damage stat by +1 is never guaranteed to offer any given % increase.
Though I'll concede that, especially with racial bonuses, 15 point buy is plenty for SAD classes to excel.
I like 25 PB, no stat below 10 pre-racial. The strongest classes aren't really affected, the MAD classes get a nice boost in functionality, and you see interesting character concepts brought into play.
To any class/character that can dump charisma, putting the point buy at 25 and the cap at 10 is just like having a 20 point buy.
I personally like to allow Point Buy amounts base on Race. The core races I give 20 points to, Kobold (lowest rp) I give 25, All other races I allow, even monstrous, though if you're going to be a Svirfneblin, Centaur, or some other overly powerful race you'll only get a 5 point buy. Medium races, like Aasimar, get 15 point buys.
It doesn't matter exactly the numbers, I just like having a system that allows more and more races to be used.
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Our group actually does an 65 point buy. Which, coming to think of it, might be one of the reasons why my Eidolon isn't nearly the murder-machine (compared to our two-handed fighter) Unchained Summoner's Eidolons are usually seen as.
All around... Well, it means that my Summoner's 9 strength is the lowest in the group. 16ths are pretty common, and everyone has two or three 18ths (pre racial mods) where they can use them.
It helps that the only real "every bonus matters" optimizer is the fighter - the other caster in the group (a white necromancer with lots of custom features to make it playable without having it control or create any undead) seems to be happy as long as the fluff fits, and I always optimize for diplomacy and intrigue... in an "bash undead hard"-game, where it doesn't really apply.
Still, we're having fun, even if part of the reason might be because we're to distracted by shiny far-from-optimal options to actually optimize.
As a practical matter, the difference between having a 16 or an 18, or an 18 or 20, etc., probably isn't going to really matter a whole lot over the course of a campaign unless you have players/GMs that are counting every single point of damage dealt every encounter. Even then, its not likely to make a huge difference in terms of actual play, just in terms of the running tally.
Also, regardless of the point buy, the difference in MAD classes and SAD classes are going to vary depending upon the extent to which the players are Min/Maxers. Note, this isn't to say that Min/Maxing is bad, its a perfectly viable play style (one that I often engage in myself when I am a player), but in my experience (and yours may well vary) the group that focuses more on role play will notice fewer differences between the MAD and SAD classes simply because there are more areas for the different characters to shine and a good GM will still provide challenges of appropriate difficulty throughout the campaign.
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Linking this post as it is a great breakdown of ability score generating methods.
I do think just providing a bunch of different arrays (the MAD ones being a little more generous with point buy) is probably the most effective one, but it provides a bunch of other considerations.
Didn't the DEVs come out and say that a 15pt buy for APs was based on incorrect math and was really lower than intended?
It seems that by the standard "15 is standard fantasy, 20 is high fantasy", that most APs go to level 16-18ish, and the sorts of things you need to challenge a party of high level adventurers, the standard for APs should really be a 20 point buy if not a 25.
I mean, how many APs actually have plots that would stay within the realm of "standard fantasy" and don't have things like dimension hopping, a small band of plucky adventurers triumphing over impossible odds, and a lot of really convenient magic to solve practical issues like "this city was constructed thousands of years ago, how is it not ruins?"
It seems that by the standard "15 is standard fantasy, 20 is high fantasy", that most APs go to level 16-18ish, and the sorts of things you need to challenge a party of high level adventurers, the standard for APs should really be a 20 point buy if not a 25.
I mean, how many APs actually have plots that would stay within the realm of "standard fantasy" and don't have things like dimension hopping, a small band of plucky adventurers triumphing over impossible odds, and a lot of really convenient magic to solve practical issues like "this city was constructed thousands of years ago, how is it not ruins?"
I think that's said to be different. Like Conan the Barbarian has no magic, but high fantasy ability scores.
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Can I ask why people seem to like point buy? I always have my players roll 4d6 reroll 1 drop lowest.
Customization with fairness.
If i'm making a paladin i need Strength, really can't dump dex, you need con, and charisma. If you have your idea for a not stereotypical paladin with some int and wisdom to, you know, have some ability to discern and judge the guilty and innocent , then you don't have any dump stats.
You're unlikely to get that character rolling, so if it's the character you want to make, AND You want to be fair so you don't story yourself in straight 18s , you balance your concept for the character with mechanical balance.
STR: 14+2 DEX: 10 CON: 14 INT: 13 WIS: 12 CHA: 14
the only repercussion(impact) of very low ability scores is if you cannot cast spells or qualify for a few Feats... that's it.
It goes a lot further than that.
If your character concept is "the best swordsman in all avistivan" and barmaids are literally mopping the floor with you you have a problem.
If you're using your intelligence and wisdom score to judge , know, and figure out things on your int 7 wis 7 Barbarian you're metagaming.
Didn't the DEVs come out and say that a 15pt buy for APs was based on incorrect math and was really lower than intended?
Yes, Mark Seifter did before joining Paizo. Developers had said they wanted the point buy to mimic 4d6 drop lowest, and Mark Seifter (aka Rogue Eidolon) eventually came up with:
To follow up on my earlier post, I just coded a Monte Carlo for Pathfinder Point Buy of the average roll, and I consistently get 21 Point Buy average with millions of characters rolled (dropping about 10% of rolls due to hopeless characters). I can post code if anyone cares to check for errors.
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Two main reasons, I think. Firstly by cutting out the random element you remove the potential issues with someone ending up with a wildly better character than someone else. Secondly and more importanty, you get to make the character you want to make instead of being at the mercy of whatever the dice let you make.
can i get a pro point buy poitn of view so i can understand the point buy though process?
And third: character creation can be done in advance rather than taking up table time, worrying about witnessing rolls, or anything else. If I say, "bring a 20 point buy character" I can spend a couple minutes and verify that the character is acceptable rather than having everyone roll out their stats and create characters while I watch. It also makes backup or replacement characters easy. No need to interrupt the session to create them and no worries that the stats you rolled might not fit the role that your character needs to fill.
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Sorry, but I have to call b+&%!@+$ on this. I really should know better than to do this, though (just the same way I should know better than to post in a Paladin/Alignment/CMD thread).And third: character creation can be done in advance rather than taking up table time, worrying about witnessing rolls, or anything else. If I say, "bring a 20 point buy character" I can spend a couple minutes and verify that the character is acceptable rather than having everyone roll out their stats and create characters while I watch. It also makes backup or replacement characters easy. No need to interrupt the session to create them and no worries that the stats you rolled might not fit the role that your character needs to fill.Two main reasons, I think. Firstly by cutting out the random element you remove the potential issues with someone ending up with a wildly better character than someone else. Secondly and more importanty, you get to make the character you want to make instead of being at the mercy of whatever the dice let you make.
can i get a pro point buy poitn of view so i can understand the point buy though process?
If you find the other threads to be cesspits of hostility, it might be because you start out by calling the other posters liars.
First: In my experience, rolling ability scores or using point-buy has very little effect at party balance. I find that builds are way more significant. Also, the possibility to get the same stats as each other does not make it balanced.
- Point-buy does not "remove the potential issues with someone ending up with a wildly better character than someone else".
It removes the issue with someone ending up with a wildly better character than someone else due to circumstances beyond their control.
Second: Point-buy isn't really more free than rolling. You're still at the mercy of the point-buy limitations. If I'm told to bring a 20-point-buy character, I can't bring a strong, intelligent and charismatic character, while also being able to take a few blows, without suffering from a MAD stat-array (which means that I'm not particularly strong, intelligent, charismatic while I'm also not able to take as many blows as I'd like). If I got...
Boohooo. Mary Sue has to stay home.
While it's true that point buy does not enable you to make a character who is perfect in every way--you'd need to be able to arbitrarily pick all 18s for that, most reasonable point buys enable you to create a functional character of any class (assuming that the class is functional to begin with--monk and rogue are often called non-functional though I think those concerns are overblown). You can be a monk, you can be a paladin, you can be a wizard, or an arcanist or a warpriest; you don't need to say, "well, I rolled one good stat and a bunch of garbage--what can I do with that?"
As for the last point--the one I presume you are "calling BS on"(AKA calling me a liar), it has been my experience across a variety of gaming groups that any time you get a bunch of people together to create characters and rolls are required, you're going to spend at least a session watching people roll, discussing what people want to play and building characters. You can choose to believe (and apparently do) that I'm a liar when I say that, but I'd bet that my experience is pretty common.
Two main reasons, I think. Firstly by cutting out the random element you remove the potential issues with someone ending up with a wildly better character than someone else. Secondly and more importanty, you get to make the character you want to make instead of being at the mercy of whatever the dice let you make.
can i get a pro point buy poitn of view so i can understand the point buy though process?
Actually, I've never been able to make the character I wanted on a 20 point buy, always had to drop, or even dump attributes I'd have wished higher to suit my concept... granted, I hate a character with weaknesses, unless I've planned them, even if I seldom want a CONAN class character (given that I've statted Conan the Barbarian, and he has 18 everywhere)
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So you're basing your view of rolling being that the GM lets you reroll until you get good stats then of course the issues he's pointing out aren't as applicable.
if you get horrible stats under rolling it's assumed that you keep said horrible stats, just like if you get uber stats you keep uber stats. If the GM is just wanting everyone with uber stats then the pretense of rolling isn't actually doing much.
SO now that we're on the same page that you get 1 shot and those are your stats it makes reason 1 valid. if I roll 12 for my highest number and you have 3 18s is where the difference beyond your control is. I have less to work with and now from the get go my guy is worse than the other dude. If the GM allows rerolls then it's basically arbitrary what your stats are. When is a roll good enough that you're stuck with it?
Now because we're still on the same page of no rerolls, number 2 is valid. I can't know beforehand which class I'm going to play until after the rolls. whereas point buy I can know which class before allocating my stats for how I want that class to be.
boo hoo mary sue, this statement was made to balking at the limitations of character creation. In a standard typical campaign you shouldn't expect to be able to play connan with all 18s. 20pt buy was show to be mathimatically very close to the expected results of 4d6 drop lowest. He didn't allude at all to BADWRONGFUN, but saying that not being able to bring superman to a normal game is something to be expected, not complained about. It's like telling someone that their 1 lottery ticket isn't likely to win them the lottery. Sure they could get lucky and roll the 6 18s aka win the lottery. But they shouldn't be complaining that it's not even possible chance using a method that give average results.
I'm a bit math oriented and kind've obsessive over precision and consistency. It'd just kill me to eyeball something like stats or accept them randomly, so I just literally have to use Point Buy. But, use whatever you like I suppose.
I've heard arguments that Low Point Buy hurts Martial Classes the most, but there are tricks to work around it. Plus, casters probably get less CON. I'm pretty generous and offer 25 point buy, I work with 20 point buy quite often. I favor a bit higher so everyone can just do what they want.
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You can do a point buy with +1 ability boost every 4 levels.
And it's true that lower point buy disfavors classes that need several ability scores.
But it's also true that the +1 ability boost does the same thing.
My approach, in order to preserve the "rise from normalcy" feeling, is to start with a low (15) point buy, and instead of giving ability boosts every 4 levels, expand that initial point buy at each level, crossing into 20 and 25 and beyond.
Because I want to have my cake and eat it too.
Having run the numbers, I'm moving to 20 +1 each level. 15 was low by 6 on average and '+1 to a score' puts lie to the value of those scores as they cost different as the ascend.
To the OP: I think 20 is about right, allowing better rounded out characters. Most games I deal with cap stats at 17, before racials. Humans are the best at that because they can get to 19 in and ability score. SAD classes are cramped, but not unduly so, MAD classes are better able to flesh out before advancing too far.
Didn't the DEVs come out and say that a 15pt buy for APs was based on incorrect math and was really lower than intended?
Yes they did, but why let facts get in the way of a good rant?
Didn't the DEVs come out and say that a 15pt buy for APs was based on incorrect math and was really lower than intended?Yes, Mark Seifter did before joining Paizo. Developers had said they wanted the point buy to mimic 4d6 drop lowest, and Mark Seifter (aka Rogue Eidolon) eventually came up with:
To follow up on my earlier post, I just coded a Monte Carlo for Pathfinder Point Buy of the average roll, and I consistently get 21 Point Buy average with millions of characters rolled (dropping about 10% of rolls due to hopeless characters). I can post code if anyone cares to check for errors.
Note, this is not "incorrect math." A different analysis method that removes 10% of the results provides a different outcome.
The 15 point buy* was based off a more straightforward analysis method on all results (including "hopeless characters"): statistically, the average result of 4d6 drop lowest (extending the "buy-back" for low scores below 7) is equivalent to between a 18- and 19- "point buy."* Because point-buy allows for greater optimization (more even numbers, the ability to invest "just enough" to meet specific requirements, etc.), 15-point buy* was chosen as the standard.
*- This was actually calculated for 3.x 25-point buy (which is pretty much the same as PF 15-point buy) with a "point buy equivalent" result between 28 and 29.
The past 3 campaigns I've played or run we used 18 points which has worked out pretty dang well even for MAD PCs.
Just thought I'd share.
Why 18? Seems a strange number.
Why 18? Seems a strange number.
The previous campaign we did 20-point buy and it seemed like the GM had to keep upping the HP of monsters/NPCs to make things sufficiently challenging.
When we were creating PCs for the 1st 18-pt-buy campaign we first tried 15 points and the results were too lackluster. I experimented making a paladin, a monk, a barbarian, and a sorcerer with 15 points, 16 points, 17 points, 18 points, 19 points, 20 points; 18 points was where I found I wasn't disappointed with any of the PCs created and after running some test encounters with the GM found that although the combats weren't TPKs they weren't cake-walks either.
The next 2 following campaigns we used 18 points because it seemed to work. We're almost finished with Reign of Winter using 18-pt buy, and while we agree that point buy amount is probably the sweet spot we're going to go to 20 points for our next AP because we're not going to use Hero Points for it.
Intersting. I suspect the lack of hero points will be a big difference
Intersting. I suspect the lack of hero points will be a big difference
It will, Hero Points are decisive as the players learn to properly exploit them. We had a 25/Hero points game that was beyond wild.