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The problem is with crits, the fact the Jingasa is required at upper levels tells you how borked the system is.I wouldn't say "no one". You should have seen me at PFS tonight.
When every single character you encounter has one, and you're asked every time by everybody why your characters do not...there be a problem.
This is a fallacy. I have two characters at 18+, one at 16, two at 14, one at 12, and a bunch at 10+. All told I have 24 active characters and not a one has the Jingasa. They do quite fine without it. It isn't required to survive or even enjoy high level play.
I b know many think it's a must. But it isn't necessary.
So while I agree the nerf went too far, I'm not ready to condemn the game system because of its popularity either.
Like Andrew, I have 20+ characters and only one character had the jingasa. He now has a dusty rose prism ioun stone, meaning his AC remains the same.
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And he's got a cool stone orbiting his noggin. :-)
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The brawling nerf might have been a little too much, +2 sounds more appropriate, but I'm fine with the nerf. And one of the PCs I'm playing right now has it and can't afford to keep it but he can live without it. So bravo Paizo.
Brawling went from a minimum 3000gp to get and makes AC more expensive to being a minimum of 15,000gp and never getting more AC. Whelp no longer need to worry about staying at light armor now. Time to go medium armor!
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I like how they nerfed Jingasa into the ground and kept the price the same. lulz.So lets see here. Negating crits once is worth 3000. How much is that item of many colors to turn into a bird?4000 gp. For seven 10-minute shots of beast shape IV (single form).
Seems good.
Command word item = spell level * caster level * 1800
7 uses per day = * 7 / 5Beast shape 4 = sl 6, cl 11
6 x 11 x 1800 x 7 / 5 = 166320
that is over 40 times the price of that item.
add to that it is also a +1 ring of protection, so you are actually only paying 1400 for the transformation ability.
Compare:
Cloak of the scuttling rat: Beast shape 1, single (non flying) form, 5 minutes per day. 6000 gp.
Manteau of the mouse. Beast shape 1/day, beast shape 3, single (non flying form) 12500 gp (10,000 if you do not include the stealth bonus which works out to be about equal to a cloak of elven kind.)
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To be fair, that's from a different book, so you may want to hold your breath til all the season's re-printings are released.But I have one piece of good news to sing
No one’s touched my seven color ring!
Lyric grabs a necklace of adaptation so she can hold her breath until then.
"Remember, I'm an eternal optimist! For now, my pretty ring is still in the store window!"
Hmm
PS You have to admit... It was a great song, right?
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To be fair, that's from a different book, so you may want to hold your breath til all the season's re-printings are released.But I have one piece of good news to sing
No one’s touched my seven color ring!Lyric grabs a necklace of adaptation so she can hold her breath until then.
"Remember, I'm an eternal optimist! For now, my pretty ring is still in the store window!"
Hmm
PS You have to admit... It was a great song, right?
Oh I liked the song quite a bit, it's impressive and pretty funny. Just a small point.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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All joking aside--I would like to thank whoever is on the team that published this errata.
One of the reasons why 3.X died out was because of it's copious levels of rules bloat. By having so much material present and no system for issuing errata (shy of releasing a new edition), 3.X suffered from numerous "overpowered" options that were in dire need of a touch up. And as Paizo continues to release content, Pathfinder becomes bloated with things in need of fixing. Fortunately for Pathfinder, there have been several erratas, updates, and FAQs that have combated this burgeoning bloat.
With enough changes there will inevitably be erratas that seem heavy handed or miss the mark, but by and large having errata is a necessary part of maintaining such a massive rules system. That's why there are always patches for online games--more content means more opportunity for something unbalanced to slip in.
For anyone truly upset by these erratas, keep in mind that the process of updating content is just that--a process. This is not "the final errata" there ever will be, it is however, the most current one. There will be more updates, and more opportunities to fix broken aspects of the system, or revert those that were incorrectly assessed to be broken. Given enough time, Pathfinder will find a balance between power and sustainability. And by realizing that these changes are about keeping the game alive for years to come, there comes an acceptance that it requires the sacrifice of someone's beloved mechanics.
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The problem is with crits, the fact the Jingasa is required at upper levels tells you how borked the system is.I wouldn't say "no one". You should have seen me at PFS tonight.
When every single character you encounter has one, and you're asked every time by everybody why your characters do not...there be a problem.
Why would Jarl Rukk wear such a silly hat?
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Online game patches tend to buff options as well to bring them up to par. Erratas have been significantly in favor of only making the options worse. Any well-known character option can probably expect a nerf at this point.
When I think of a balance patch for an online game I'm excited to see new potential for what was improved even if I might miss something which was taken away. Paizo errata documents don't carry same feeling because options aren't being made better; they are almost exclusively worse.
When your change at best inspires a feeling of "Good riddance, I hated that option" and at worst makes others feel regret and frustration you have failed to create a positive atmosphere in your game. There is a certain amount of magic and excitement which comes with balance patches in other games; what's new, how can I use this, let me give this a try. In this respect Paizo has completely lost sight of this aspect of game design. The errata has only created anxiety in people hoping their characters won't be the next effected and frustration from those who were.
brawling armor from a +1 to a +3. Wow.
This is going to be a much larger hit to my wallet than I would have liked. A +2 I could absorb. But at +3, I'm going to have to refigure future purchases to account for this.
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For anyone truly upset by these erratas, keep in mind that the process of updating content is just that--a process. This is not "the final errata" there ever will be, it is however, the most current one.
Walter, I think the major problem people have with this is the apparent rationale behind it.
While, I don't have your experience, I've been a part of more than two hundred tables of PFS. In that time I've seen these items used and carried too many times to count, but I've never seen them (except Staff of the Master) used to dominate a game, or even allow one PC to noticeably outperform another. They're support items with a narrow, but useful, niche.
It honestly seems like the items were nerfed because they're popular, rather than for any concrete game-balance concern. Which, when taken in light of the recent Xing Grace nerfs, paints a worrying trend. To echo what Ragoz is saying, we're seeing popular options nerfed, but being given nothing in return.
50GP for a cow!!!???
Seriously????
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Uh, what? Except towards the end of its life 3.5 definitely issued a bunch of errata, and didn't even restrict it to only being issued when a new printing was being run.All joking aside--I would like to thank whoever is on the team that published this errata.
One of the reasons why 3.X died out was because of it's copious levels of rules bloat. By having so much material present and no system for issuing errata (shy of releasing a new edition), 3.X suffered from numerous "overpowered" options that were in dire need of a touch up. And as Paizo continues to release content, Pathfinder becomes bloated with things in need of fixing. Fortunately for Pathfinder, there have been several erratas, updates, and FAQs that have combated this burgeoning bloat.
Well color me amazed! Having played DND for a decade (since 1997-2007), I never knew these existed. I wonder what my homegames would have looked like had we known...
I retract that section of my post. Thanks for pointing that out!
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I never bought the jingasa on any character. But even I say the nerf was needed, but went stupidily way to far. I love it designers rebalance games, but Paizo almost never rebalance, they nerf power items. Rebalancing includes buffing under powered items, and they almost never do it.
Seriously they should look at options never taken and give them some love.
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Online game patches tend to buff options as well to bring them up to par. Erratas have been significantly in favor of only making the options worse. Any well-known character option can probably expect a nerf at this point.
When I think of a balance patch for an online game I'm excited to see new potential for what was improved even if I might miss something which was taken away. Paizo errata documents don't carry same feeling because options aren't being made better; they are almost exclusively worse.
When your change at best inspires a feeling of "Good riddance, I hated that option" and at worst makes others feel regret and frustration you have failed to create a positive atmosphere in your game. There is a certain amount of magic and excitement which comes with balance patches in other games; what's new, how can I use this, let me give this a try. In this respect Paizo has completely lost sight of this aspect of game design. The errata has only created anxiety in people hoping their characters won't be the next effected and frustration from those who were.
I'm with you up until the bolded line. I have a different view about those options than you, and others, do. To me, they never struck me as solid character options, they struck me as decidedly powerful ones. Options so strong that it is nearly mechanically impossible to argue another option is superior.
Until this errata, for 4,500 gp, you could not get a better head slot than a jingasa. That was a solid fact in the Pathfinder system. And the staff of masters falls into the same category. They were both items that were so powerful they were "staples" in nearly every build.
I dislike staples. I dislike the idea of a system that offers infinite choice, but really only offers limited choice, or no choice at all. Which was the case with those items. For those of us that didn't purchase a pointy hat or broken spellcaster staff, we did so out of a point of pride in that we didn't need such "required items" in order to play the game. Which is why there is no love lost on our end when they inevitably get curtailed.
I understand the frustration at getting something removed whilst not having something added. Having played years worth of MMOs and other online games I know the twinge of a patch that feels personally targeted (Of course they nerf my three main LOL characters!!). But they are a necessary tool in order for game to survive. And Paizo hears the feedback we're posting here. They see that people are flustered that their hats and staves are getting smashed with the nerf bat. But they know it's all part of the process.
Remember when synthesist summoners were banned? Remember the outrage? You might, but all the people that have joined and enjoyed PFS since don't, because those synthesists were never there to make the game unbalanced. That's the point I'm trying to get at here.
These options were changed because they were mechanically flawed. They may still be flawed, but their current form is far better for balance than their previous one, and because of that the system survives.
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Aaaaaw man, you nerfed the price of the mithral waffle iron? What is our Chicken and Waffles salesman going to do?
The mithral adventuring gear went from a static +1000 to price per pound.
It's to be expected, but it'll just ensure that it'll only be used to pad treasure instead of being used I'm afraid.|
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I don't really feel any sense of pride for having never purchased a staff of the master or jingasa. I never needed them because they weren't the best option for me to take. It's not like the staff is competing with other staves for that 'slot'; they are all equally useless trash nobody will buy now. The same can be said for jingasa. People who needed circlets of persuasion will buy those still, others will use Goz masks, and others might even try for a mask of the mantis with some effort to do so but new options aren't suddenly viable from this nerf. If some other option fills the jingasa's role it will be the new staple for that effect and nothing will have changed.
I certainly didn't feel like there was a lack of metamagic rods being purchased on behalf of the staff even though those are its closest substitute.
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So, now there are even less choice for buying, and less useful magic items for theese money. My players gonna just recruit a thousand peasants with crossbows for this money.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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The designers should realize that often the best way to fix an item is to change the price.
Do you feel the Jingasa is overpowered or overused? Fine, change its price to 8000 gp or 12000 gp. Don't change an item that protects you from crits into an item that doesn't protect you from crits.
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Aaaaaw man, you nerfed the price of the mithral waffle iron? What is our Chicken and Waffles salesman going to do?The mithral adventuring gear went from a static +1000 to price per pound.
It's to be expected, but it'll just ensure that it'll only be used to pad treasure instead of being used I'm afraid.
Awww, I had a character that was collecting those...
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The designers should realize that often the best way to fix an item is to change the price.
Do you feel the Jingasa is overpowered or overused? Fine, change its price to 8000 gp or 12000 gp. Don't change an item that protects you from crits into an item that doesn't protect you from crits.
Now, now, it still protects from a crit.
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In time, the sting of change and character item loss will grow less and other, creative options will present themselves. I have multiple characters affected by these changes and was initially annoyed, but then I remembered that I've been through every PF errata since inception and like Walter says, more will come; some will be well received, some not. The PFS world will keep spinning. I don't even remember what I was annoyed with during the first erratas or FAQs.
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Well didn't get hit too hard. Never had a character with the Jingasa, though my lvl 14 Barb does roll with mod fortification.
I will however have to sell back my Gloves of Recon. The funny thing was that my Barbarian was always the only character with a set in any scenario I played and he was always to loud in the hallway to take advantage of it. They were really just gloves of lets start combat now rather than after you open the door.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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The designers should realize that often the best way to fix an item is to change the price.
Do you feel the Jingasa is overpowered or overused? Fine, change its price to 8000 gp or 12000 gp. Don't change an item that protects you from crits into an item that doesn't protect you from crits.
I think I have to sell the Jingasa on 5-6 characters now, and bluntly while I am not thrilled and would have preferred a different solution, at least that gives me the option to try a couple of other head slot items (the Jingasa really was such a survivability staple that it seemed mandatory, I have a character who owns two of them...).
I can safely say that even at 12000 every character above level 7 would have rebought the item.
If you want to defend yourself against critical hits there are some options :
BUFFERING CAP
Price2,000 gp; Aura faint conjuration; CL 1st; Weight 1 lb.
This cloth hat is floppy and shapeless. It offers its wearer an unusual amount of protection against particularly devastating blows. Once per day when struck by a critical hit, the wearer can spend an immediate action to convert the bonus damage of the critical hit into nonlethal damage. The cap has no effect if the wearer is immune to nonlethal damage.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 1,000 gp
Craft Wondrous Item, shield
Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
Fortification Type Chance for Normal Damage Base Price Modifier
Light 25% +1 bonus
Moderate 50% +3 bonus
Heavy 75% +5 bonus
Strong abjuration; CL 13th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, limited wish or miracle; Price varies (see above).
Shield Specialization (Combat)
You have mastered the use of one type of shield.Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected shield, Shield Focus, fighter level 4th.
Benefit: Choose one type of shield (buckler, light, heavy, or tower shield). With the selected shield, you gain a +2 bonus to your Armor Class against critical hit confirmation rolls. In addition, you may add your base shield bonus (including the bonus from Shield Focus but not including enhancement bonuses) to your CMD.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of shield.
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Hey, now my Door Sight power from the Exploration subdomain isn't completely overshadowed!
I think I have to replace the Jingasa on two characters. It'll hurt on my Oracle because of Fate's Favored, and I'm guessing it'll just end up going toward the Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone. Sad.
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I think I have to sell the Jingasa on 5-6 characters now, and bluntly while I am not thrilled and would have preferred a different solution, at least that gives me the option to try a couple of other head slot items (the Jingasa really was such a survivability staple that it seemed mandatory, I have a character who owns two of them...)
Well here's the thing... what are we replacing them with?
Outside of the big six there's so few items that aren't ridiculously overpriced for what they do that nerfing a few of them is nerfing an awfully big chunk of the non big 6 items that people use. Sadly this is going to DROP the diversity of items, not increase it.
Edit: the buffering cap is a nice alternative. Definitely be pointing my players at it tonight.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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I'm in the minority, but I'm applauding the changes, just like the last few book revisions. I may not agree on every single change, and I know that change is hard in general, but on the whole, I think the changes make for a better game. There were a lot of outlier items, that were compulsory. I hate that. I hear people talking about having the same item on 5 or 6 characters, while at the same time claiming it's not too strong.
I'm not sure how the metagame is in other areas, but in my area, not only were many of these items considered "must have" on characters, but players were buying multiples of the charge or per day items because they were so cheap for what they did.
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Sadly this is going to DROP the diversity of items, not increase it.
Well as somebody that has chosen not to buy the Jingasa because, "why would my character that's never been to Tian Xia want to buy a Tian hat" and "why would my fighter who grew up in Tandan nobility want to not wear something of the highest fashion instead," I am apparently one of the few uniquely qualified to answer this. This won't drop the diversity if you look not for the mechanically superior item at the best price, but instead for useful, cool, or thematic items at a reasonable price.
Items to pop on my noggin I rather like include: Hats of disguise, Besmara's tricorne (which replicates another item that's saved my bacon on more than one occasion), buffering hats, holy masks of the living gods, helm of comprehend languages and read magic, maiden's helm, mask of conflicting energy, circlet of persuasion, grappler's mask, explorer's pith helmet (which is both an awesome and thematic item),
Everything on that list above are things I either have, or have seriously considered for various characters that are at or near the price point of a Jingasa. Most I pick because they're right for the character (my hellknight isn't buying a pith helmet). The list is really quite cool if you actually read into it and try to find something that fits your character and has its use. Not everything needs to be "always on" and the "best choice".
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I want to add to that list: Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Goz Mask, Shadow Fletching, Mask of the Mantis(it's on a chronicle or two) and Veil of Fleeting Glances.
Now, if you want a useless slot, check out Wrist. I mean I kinda see a few choice ones if you happen to be of certain class or ethnicity, but meh.