On your note in the VMC magus section, you say that it It's of more value to those with magus class levels, but I think you mean magus class features.
Also you mention spell blending which I don't think anyone except a magus can actually benefit from due to an FAQ.
A good one to use as an example might be wand wielder or something else that requires spell combat.
The Conductive enchantment should be higher tiered, at least green if not blue. A Hexcrafter would be scary with that ability cause every turn I could both hit with a Hex and a Spell at full BAB. If I grab more hexes then I could spend a different one every turn to incapacitate my enemy before a coup de grace and moving on, repeating the process. And since hexes have a limitless amount of uses so long as you have more targets, I will never run out, unlike spells. On top of that, its DC rises to match my HD and remains relevant at higher levels. Throw in the Accursed Hex feat and I can spam the same hexes twice at an enemy, doubling the chance that a hex will work against them.
The fact that Gnomes can add it to a Blackblade is even more nasty.
A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack...
The bolded line is why you can't spam hexes. Most of the hexes you'd like to use don't require an attack roll and so can't be channeled through a conductive weapon.
^Not only that, but usually you can't use a Hex and cast a spell in the same round. You COULD cast an Immediate/Swift Action spell and then use a Hex if you can find one that uses an attack roll, but spells that are intrinsically Immediate/Swift Action are few and far in between, and Quicken Spell becomes viable only for a Magus of at least 13th level unless you spend some serious specialization to pull it off with a lower spell level cost.
The Conductive enchantment should be higher tiered, at least green if not blue. A Hexcrafter would be scary with that ability cause every turn I could both hit with a Hex and a Spell at full BAB.
I was going to reply to this but ...
A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack...The bolded line is why you can't spam hexes. Most of the hexes you'd like to use don't require an attack roll and so can't be channeled through a conductive weapon.
... you beat me to it.
I checked this a while ago and the only hex with a melee attack roll was the BLIGHT HEX which isn't exactly stellar.
I believe there's a way to make this work with the Prehensile Hair Hex (or a racial natural attack or something) and Feral Combat Teaining, but it takes a bunch of feats.
^Not only that, but usually you can't use a Hex and cast a spell in the same round.
The idea is that you use Spell Combat to cast a spell and make a full attack. Using your Conductive weapon you channel the Hex as a free action.
If it worked it'd be amazing.
^While looking up Conductive to see if the action economy would work, I noticed another problem: You have to be able to expend 2 uses of whatever ability you are conducting. Problem is that Hex doesn't have 2 uses -- in most cases, it has 1 use per target, and in most of the remaining cases, it has some passive ability, while in a few cases you get some amount of time (usually rounds or minutes), and in a very few cases you get one use per day.
There is one way to get both a hex and a full spell combat routine, but it relies on a gm call allowing you to take hex strike. If you can take hex strike you can deliver a hex with a melee attack via an unarmed strike as a swift action. So you take hex atrike, and hit with the unarmed strike, deliver your hex as a swift action and then complete the rest of the spell combat routine.
You can be brutal if you combine this with enforcer as well.
Start your routing with a hit to do non-leathal damage. Intimidate as a free action, deliver evil eye as a swift action applying a penalty to saves. Hit again and deliver your spell now with -4 to saves.. Your gm will hate you very quickly.
Rules As Written, Hex Strike should work for a Hexcrafter Magus who has taken any Hex plus Improved Unarmed Strike.
Rules As Written, Hex Strike should work for a Hexcrafter Magus who has taken any Hex plus Improved Unarmed Strike.
I absolutely agree, but a lot of people rule that the hexcrafter magus doesn't have the "hex class feature" which is a prerequisite for hex strike.
That seems weird, since Hexcrafter Magus can pick up Hexes, and DOESN'T have the text that VMC Witch has that says "never qualifies for the Extra Hex feat" (and Extra Hex has "Hex class feature" as its prerequisite).
It's a dumb stance, but I've seen it a lot of times.
It's a dumb stance, but I've seen it a lot of times.
I agree.
There's an FAQ about whether this kind of thing works that I 100% think means it works (the example they give are a Paladin's "Channel POSITIVE Energy" counting as "Channel Energy"), but my search-fu is really terrible today =P
Regardless, here's another Example of how you can have fun with the hexstrike(evil eye) and enforcer combo.
Striker Debuff:
-Cast Bestow Curse
-Move to opponent to mark
-Unarmed strike the opponent (nonlethal) delivering curse for -4 to saves
-Free action intimidate -2 to saves (total now -6)
-Swift action evil eye far another -2 to saves (-8 total)
-Wait for party wizard to petrify.
-Repeat
The best part about all of that is that intimidate is nearly unavoidable against someone who's invested much into it, and evil eye is unavoidable for at least 1 round even if they make their save. Your friend you liked save or die spells is going to love you.
With a single level dip into brawler you can do all of that while still having your weapon in hand. Also you can use martial flexibility to pick up hexstrike of other hexes as you need them.
Well when you hit them you deliver the spell, no actions required or allowed. Enforcer and hex strike both require actions and so you have to do them after unfortunately.
If you're doing the spell combat routine though you can totally hit once to use enforcer and hex stike, then cast the spell and hit again to deliver it. It's definitely better that way, but that's a full action so no moving in.
It's a dumb stance, but I've seen it a lot of times.I agree.
There's an FAQ about whether this kind of thing works that I 100% think means it works (the example they give are a Paladin's "Channel POSITIVE Energy" counting as "Channel Energy"), but my search-fu is really terrible today =P
FAQIt's a dumb stance, but I've seen it a lot of times.I agree.
There's an FAQ about whether this kind of thing works that I 100% think means it works (the example they give are a Paladin's "Channel POSITIVE Energy" counting as "Channel Energy"), but my search-fu is really terrible today =P
Thanks.
I I could have sworn there was one with different examples, but oh well.
(TLDR: Hex Magus = Hex)
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Ah I found it. It's not an FAQ but it's from someone who was on the design team.
And that means things like Improved Channel and Alignment Channel and Extra Channel should apply equally to the cleric, life oracle, and paladin .... Because to do otherwise means we need different versions of these feats for oracles and paladins because under the strictest interpretation, neither of them has a class ability that's specifically and explicitly named "channel energy;" and three sets of redundant identical feats for clerics, oracles, and paladins is lame and a waste of space.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
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I’m a fan of that post from SKR. He’s talking about game design philosophy. Unfortunately, the PDT doesn’t always stick to that philosophy. There are plenty of examples that are contrary to it, and even some that have been explicitly called out in FAQs to be contrary to the idea. Like Investigators and wand use, for example.
As much as I would like the linked FAQ to clear things up, I don’t think it does. Hex Magus doesn’t say that it works like or counts as the Witch’s Hex feature. It just says you can select a Hex that’s available from that class feature.
The FAQ is also talking about archetypes replacing their base class features. It’s not clear anywhere in there that it applies to an archetype ability from a different class.
It’s certainly reasonable to conclude that’s how it works and to allow it for Hex Magus, but it’s definitely not clear that is the case based on the way other situations have been ruled (see again Investigator and wands).
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I don’t want to debate Alchemy on a Magus thread (Bombs and Mutagen are definitely separate class features and can be altered or replaced without affecting Alchemy).
A better parallel might be Flamboyant Arcana and Arcane Deed pre-eratta. You have deeds, but they’re really still Arcanas, and you can’t take feats that require deeds. Everyone assumed your Magus level still counted as swashbuckler level for the deeds you did have, and that Arcane pool points counted as having panache in your pool for the deeds you had. But those things ended up not being the case.
My point is, crazier things have happened in the rules, so it’s entirely possible Hexcrafters can’t take Hex feats. We’re unlikely to ever get an answer on that, so ask your GM. Or if it’s for PFS, weigh whether you’re ok showing up to a table and possibly not being allowed to use the feat.
If the Hexes are really Arcana, as Hex Arcana seems to imply, then Hex feats wouldn’t work (but Arcana feats would). So that makes it moot in terms of Extra Hex. If that doesn’t work, then Extra Arcana should. But it’s less clear for things like Hex Strike.
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Bladebound/Spell Dancer - I'll disagree with you there as well. Arcane Pool doesn't break out the individual pieces in the way something like Bardic Performance does. Both Bladebound and Spell Dancer modify Arcane Pool, which is a single class feature. Remember even adding an option to a class feature and taking nothing away counts as modifying it and means you can't take a different archetype that modifies the class feature in any way.
Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
Bladebound changes the number of Arcane Pool points. That's changing the way the entire class feature works in the same way that adding a round of bardic performance is changing that class feature.
Back to the Hex Magus topic... somewhere there is designer comment on another class feature that gives you one thing from a different class. I can't remember what it was, which is hampering my ability to search and find it. When I've had more (any) sleep, I'll look for it. Basically the designer said you get 1 "X," not the whole class feature. But I'll track it down eventually rather than expect you to take my word for it.
Well, Eldritch Scion modifies or replaces Spellcasting, Spell Recall (although strangely not improved Spell Recall), Arcane Pool, Spell Combat, Knowledge Pool, Improved Spell Combat, and Greater Spell Combat. Most Magus archetypes modify or replace some of these things. So as far as I know the guide is correct in saying that only Staff Magus stacks with Eldritch Scion, but I haven't exhaustively searched the most recently introduced archetypes for compatible ones.
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Okay the Arcane Deed arcana is a more compelling argument against it. To that The only counters are: 1 you had to go through an arcana to get the deed, while hexcrafter gets the Hex directly; and, at least 1 of your Hexes gets full Magus == Witch levels, there is a possible debate on that due to Hex Arcana not having the Magus lv == Witch level wording.
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I know not to debate Alchemy but: ** spoiler omitted **Also you can always replace multiple parts of an ability without affecting the rest.It's why Bladebound and Spell Dancer should be able to stack (even if people dont think so).
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Btw speaking of stacking, do you all think Eldritch Scion stacks with any archetype that doesn't replace Arcane Pool? And how useful is it really, I'm still not quite sure whether it's worth it or not.
I feel the FAQ was a stealth errata for balance reasons, not a ruling on RAW.
RAI, there is no way they originally meant for the feat to do nothing.
They gave the magus level based precision damage, then realized what that meant for an already high DPR class and nuked the entire thing rather than try to refine it.
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** spoiler omitted **
Bladebound/Spell Dancer - I'll disagree with you there as well. Arcane Pool doesn't break out the individual pieces in the way something like Bardic Performance does. Both Bladebound and Spell Dancer modify Arcane Pool, which is a single class feature. Remember even adding an option to a class feature and taking nothing away counts as modifying it and means you can't take a different archetype that modifies the class feature in any way.
...Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic
Bladebound does not modify the Arcana class feature, it only replaces one sub-feature. The magi's 3rd level arcana.
This is why Bladebound stacks with Kensai, which replaces the magi's 9th level arcana.
Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
Magus arcana and arcane pool are two different class features. Bladebound replaces just one of the arcana, yes, but it also changes the arcane pool. Spell dancer changes the arcane pool too.
Bladebound: 'This ability changes the Arcane Pool class feature...'
Spell dancer: 'This ability replaces the magus’s ability to expend points from his arcane pool as a swift action...'
If you'd like to discuss the Phantom Blade more I'd love to but that's a overview. Here's a link to a Phantom Blade specific guide. I don't agree with everything in it, but it does do a decent job of looking at the class.Well, as the author of this guide, if you'd like to share the controversial points, I'll be glad to hear them.
Phantom Blade is a bit hard to compare in terms of efficiency with Magus, mainly, as I said in the guide, because the spell list is so vastly different that you end to have a different role in party than a Magus has.
I've played the Phantom Blade as a tank, for exemple, and I was fully satisfied of it.
I remember even my DM saying once that he should perhaps remove some of my spells because I was litteraly soloing some encounters without the help of my teamates.Well... at the same time, after I defeated a boss in a single round by combining Ethereal Weapon, Spell Strike and Plane Shift... I could understand him.
Interesting: while the spell is on the spiritualist spell list, it is not listed as a spiritualist spell on the pfsrd.
Yes, the list on pfsrd is very incomplete.
That's sad because the Phantom Blade get some truly interesting touch spells like Plane Shift, Harm and Bestow Curse.I usualy use D20pfsrd as a reference instead.
That is what I was referring to.
AoN has it listed correctly, but looking up spells there is not quite as easy.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Btw speaking of stacking, do you all think Eldritch Scion stacks with any archetype that doesn't replace Arcane Pool? And how useful is it really, I'm still not quite sure whether it's worth it or not.
It's worth it because several bloodline abilities are very powerful. For example, Aberrant gives you reach, lets you stagger on a crit and makes you immune to nauseating, exhaustion, and 50% of critical hits. Arcane bloodline gives you three strong buff spells at the same time for a swift action, and lets you take extra opportunity attacks. Or, the Destined bloodline gives you a large luck bonus to AC and saves, reroll one attack every two rounds and gain insight bonuses to more attacks, automatically confirms crits, and lets you make a saving throw to negate being killed.
The main downsides are lack of skill points, and that you effectively cannot use any arcana that cost pool points.They gave the magus level based precision damage, then realized what that meant for an already high DPR class and nuked the entire thing rather than try to refine it.
Right. Magus + precise strike was a problem, Magus + basically any other swashbuckler deed was not. Unfortunately they overnerfed the Arcane Deed arcana, making it entirely useless. At least Flamboyant Arcana is still good.
Well... at the same time, after I defeated a boss in a single round by combining Ethereal Weapon, Spell Strike and Plane Shift... I could understand him.
So what you're saying is you cast a save-or-lose spell on the boss, and he failed his save. While that's certainly effective tactics, it doesn't say anything about the Phantom Blade :)
It's still a good archetype though; I rate it green when compared to baseline Magus.
{. . .}
It is referenced in d200fsrd. Here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spiritualist/#TOC-5t h-Level-Spiritualist-Spells-Paizo-
Linkified for your convenience (strangely, the forums DIDN'T break the link).
It is referenced in d200fsrd. Here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spiritualist/#TOC-5t h-Level-Spiritualist-Spells-Paizo-Yes, the list on pfsrd is very incomplete.
That's sad because the Phantom Blade get some truly interesting touch spells like Plane Shift, Harm and Bestow Curse.I usualy use D20pfsrd as a reference instead.
That is what I was referring to.
AoN has it listed correctly, but looking up spells there is not quite as easy.
They omitted spiritualist (and the other occult classes) here: Plane Shift
^Interesting party concept -- I'll have to give this some more thought.
What would you think about a multiclass Magus/Inquisitor?
I think I'd rather be full Magus because inquisitor doesn't really get going till lvl 4. Could make an interesting gestalt mind you (although missing full BaB).
I was going to say Magus VMC Inquisitor, but VMC Inquisitor is actually quite bad(*) -- it takes even longer to get going; Judgment scales with your character level - 3 for effect and to a rough approximation with 1/3 your character level -3 for uses per day, and Solo Tactics is a bad joke if you don't get any bonus Teamwork Feats (and you probably won't be able to afford to use any of your limited remaining feats on these).
(*)Saved from being the worst VMC in the game by VMC Witch and VMC Gunslinger.
You'd need to go to at least three levels so that you could take broad study. Even then I think you could only spell strike with spells that appear on the magus list. Probably not worth doing.
Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.
Looks to me like Broad Study lets you cast all of your spells through Spellstrike and Spell Combat, provided that they otherwise qualify.
But then again, it's a 3 level dip.
6 levels. Broad study requires magus 6.