Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus


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Yeah broad study is really too high level to be worth it except in very specific circumstances ... or gestalt. It's amazing for gestalt.


Wasn’t suggesting spell combat with inquisitor spells, just using low level magus spells where caster level isn’t that important. As a two level dip in magus, Ray of Frost for an extra attack each round, or finish your full attack with a Vanish, or throw out buffs like enlarge person and shield.

A third level dip gets you arcana, which could let you spell combat with wands (but not spellstrike?), which eventually lets you consider things like tacking an Enervation onto a full attack.


Lelomenia wrote:
A third level dip gets you arcana, which could let you spell combat with wands (but not spellstrike?)

This has been debated a lot.

I think the place I settled on is that you could already spellstrike with wands (so they didn't need to include that clause), but it's been so long since I looked into it that I can't really remember what the consensus is, or how qnyone came to their conclusions.


avr wrote:
6 levels. Broad study requires magus 6.

Good catch. Well, 6 levels is no longer a dip unless you are going Super-Epic.

Going the other way, you could go Inquisitor VMC Magus and actually be okay, although you don't get Spellstrike until level 11 and never get Spell Combat, so even though Broad Study would be technically legal at level 7, it wouldn't be of any use until level 11, but you don't get a Magus Arcana then from VMC Magus, so it has to wait until level 15 (or level 13 if you are allowed to take Extra Magus Arcana).

Although . . . you could dip 1 level of Phantom Blade Spiritualist to get Spell Combat and then go the rest of the way Inquisitor, with VMC Magus superimposed on the whole thing, and then you could actually make use of Broad Study at Character Level 7. Still, expensive on feats, and you have to wait all the way until Character Level 11 to get Spellstrike, so maybe it would be best to dip 2 levels of Phantom Blade Spiritualist, and then retrain the 2nd of these to another level of Inquisitor when you hit Character Level 11. Probably want Magical Knack as one of your traits if you can get it, then -- although it becomes semi-wasted when you do the retraining, you're going to have 8 levels of Inquisitor with your Caster Level delayed by 2 before it finally goes down to 1.

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Bardess wrote:
What would you think about a multiclass Magus/Inquisitor?

Depends; did you mean Magus with an Inq dip, or Inq with a Magus dip, or equal amounts of Magus/Inq possibly going into Mystic Theurge?

...

Magus with Inq dip, I don't see the point; Inq doesn't do enough in the first few levels to justify delaying Magus features. The reverse, Inq with a Magus dip, I can certainly see working; two levels will give you TWF-equivalent spell combat with a cantrip, or the occasional Shield or Vanish (note that Enlarge cannot be used in SC, although Long Arm can). And basically ignore spellstrike (even with wands) because of your low caster level. Pearls of power may be cheaper than wand wielder plus wands, depending on how long your adventuring days are.

Magus / Inq / Mystic Theurge would be fun, but loses too much unless you can manage early entry (i.e. the feat Equipment Trick: Sunrod). Even better would be Magus 2 / Warpriest 2 / MT.


What do you think of disruptive recall ? Too circumstancial ?


Kurald Galain wrote:

{. . .}

Magus / Inq / Mystic Theurge would be fun, but loses too much unless you can manage early entry (i.e. the feat Equipment Trick: Sunrod). Even better would be Magus 2 / Warpriest 2 / MT.

Mystic Theurge suffers the same problem as the majority of prestige classes applied to 6/9 casters -- the class features are balanced(*) for 9/9 casters, but the spellcasting progression does not compensate for your coming in with a 6/9 spellcasting class, so you still get 6/9 spellcasting progression, but on a d6, 1/2 BAB chassis.

(*)Well, sort of -- at any rate, the idea is there in the design.

As far as I can tell, Pathfinder 2nd Edition just bypasses the problem by replacing prestige classes with feat trees and by not having anything in between innate spellcasting and full 9/9 (10/10?) spellcasting. As far as I know, we have no indication what Paizo is going to do officially with the Magus in 2nd Edition, although reportedly people have posted plausible 2nd Edition conversions of the Magus (haven't yet had the chance to check out in detail just how these would work).

Kirthfinder had the idea of standardized Spell Capacity that would be progressed at a certain rate by whatever classes you were taking levels in, leaving open the possibility (never implemented as far as I know) of a prestige class accelerating the spellcasting progression of a 6/9-casting or even 4/9-casting base class.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Kurald Galain wrote:

{. . .}

Magus / Inq / Mystic Theurge would be fun, but loses too much unless you can manage early entry (i.e. the feat Equipment Trick: Sunrod). Even better would be Magus 2 / Warpriest 2 / MT.

Mystic Theurge suffers the same problem as the majority of prestige classes applied to 6/9 casters -- the class features are balanced(*) for 9/9 casters, but the spellcasting progression does not compensate for your coming in with a 6/9 spellcasting class, so you still get 6/9 spellcasting progression, but on a d6, 1/2 BAB chassis.

(*)Well, sort of -- at any rate, the idea is there in the design.

As far as I can tell, Pathfinder 2nd Edition just bypasses the problem by replacing prestige classes with feat trees and by not having anything in between innate spellcasting and full 9/9 (10/10?) spellcasting. As far as I know, we have no indication what Paizo is going to do officially with the Magus in 2nd Edition, although reportedly people have posted plausible 2nd Edition conversions of the Magus (haven't yet had the chance to check out in detail just how these would work).

Kirthfinder had the idea of standardized Spell Capacity that would be progressed at a certain rate by whatever classes you were taking levels in, leaving open the possibility (never implemented as far as I know) of a prestige class accelerating the spellcasting progression of a 6/9-casting or even 4/9-casting base class.

PrCs aren’t really...compatible? With most classes? Would it even be broken to house rule “PrCs that add 1 caster level normally instead add 1.5 levels to any spellcasting feature of a 6/9 caster class”? I think that would make PrCs a legitimate option for 6/9 classes, but I think they would still be suboptimal.


(Focused class was a great solution to the scaling problem that should had been part of all PRC's and would had made them actually relevant. But of well only 3 classes got that ability.)


Lelomenia wrote:
PrCs aren’t really...compatible? With most classes? Would it even be broken to house rule “PrCs that add 1 caster level normally instead add 1.5 levels to any spellcasting feature of a 6/9 caster class”? I think that would make PrCs a legitimate option for 6/9 classes, but I think they would still be suboptimal.

They'd be suboptimal in many applications, but I'm pretty sure they'd be broken in many new and interesting ways. e.g. Mesmerists are made to be effective mind-affecting spellcasters using the 6/9 chassis, give them full spellcasting (or something very similar) and they'd be broken IMO.


Temperans wrote:
(Focused class was a great solution to the scaling problem that should had been part of all PRC's and would had made them actually relevant. But of well only 3 classes got that ability.)

Focused class? Do you mean Aligned Class, like in the Evangelist prestige class?

avr wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
PrCs aren’t really...compatible? With most classes? Would it even be broken to house rule “PrCs that add 1 caster level normally instead add 1.5 levels to any spellcasting feature of a 6/9 caster class”? I think that would make PrCs a legitimate option for 6/9 classes, but I think they would still be suboptimal.
They'd be suboptimal in many applications, but I'm pretty sure they'd be broken in many new and interesting ways. e.g. Mesmerists are made to be effective mind-affecting spellcasters using the 6/9 chassis, give them full spellcasting (or something very similar) and they'd be broken IMO.

On the other hand, Mesmerists need their class features other than spellcasting to be fully effective, so if they went into a prestige class that got them accelerated spellcasting progression but left their other abilities stagnant, it would probably balance out overall, although perhaps swinging above or below par at different levels.

If you did this on a Magus, they'd gradually turn into a Wizard as they leveled up in the prestige class, unless the prestige class was a d8, 3/4 BAB prestige class like Hellknight Signifer, in which case they would actually retain a decent chance to hit stuff (although the sting of having to blow a feat on Arcane Armor Training, which is a trap option for a Magus, would still take a while to amortize out).

I do worry that what you're saying may apply to and be hard to fix in 2nd Edition Pathfinder when they try to introduce the Magus, since everybody who casts anything beyond innate spells is a 9/9 caster, and everybody has full BAB.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Temperans wrote:
(Focused class was a great solution to the scaling problem that should had been part of all PRC's and would had made them actually relevant. But of well only 3 classes got that ability.)
Focused class? Do you mean Aligned Class, like in the Evangelist prestige class?

Yes I always get the name confused.


avr wrote:


They'd be suboptimal in many applications, but I'm pretty sure they'd be broken in many new and interesting ways. e.g. Mesmerists are made to be effective mind-affecting spellcasters using the 6/9 chassis, give them full spellcasting (or something very similar) and they'd be broken IMO.

Which is pretty much how Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane) worked. Ultimately that was merely very good and only as broken as a normal full caster. To be broken you had to introduce another prestige class and advance the Sublime Chord casting with that class while getting both the casting and class features.

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Aloysius34 wrote:
What do you think of disruptive recall ? Too circumstancial ?

This feat is simply too unreliable. If you want more spells per day, invest in Pearls of Power or the Extra Arcane Pool feat.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Mystic Theurge suffers the same problem as the majority of prestige classes applied to 6/9 casters

Well, yes. I said Magus/warpriest/MT was fun, not that it was powerful. You to do get to use spell combat and fervor in the same turn, but you end up way behind on things like pool enchantment.

If you want a Magus who gradually turns into a wizard, then instead of a PrC I'd recommend the blade adept.


Kurald Galain wrote:
Bardess wrote:
What would you think about a multiclass Magus/Inquisitor?

Depends; did you mean Magus with an Inq dip, or Inq with a Magus dip, or equal amounts of Magus/Inq possibly going into Mystic Theurge?

...

Magus with Inq dip, I don't see the point; Inq doesn't do enough in the first few levels to justify delaying Magus features. The reverse, Inq with a Magus dip, I can certainly see working; two levels will give you TWF-equivalent spell combat with a cantrip, or the occasional Shield or Vanish (note that Enlarge cannot be used in SC, although Long Arm can). And basically ignore spellstrike (even with wands) because of your low caster level. Pearls of power may be cheaper than wand wielder plus wands, depending on how long your adventuring days are.

Magus / Inq / Mystic Theurge would be fun, but loses too much unless you can manage early entry (i.e. the feat Equipment Trick: Sunrod). Even better would be Magus 2 / Warpriest 2 / MT.

I was thinking more to an Inquisitor with some Magus levels. One of my characters is actually a Vigilante Zealot 4/Hexcrafter Magus 6/Evangelist 10 and he’s able to do nearly ANYTHING that can be done by other classes! :P


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Bardess wrote:
I was thinking more to an Inquisitor with some Magus levels. One of my characters is actually a Vigilante Zealot 4/Hexcrafter Magus 6/Evangelist 10 and he’s able to do nearly ANYTHING that can be done by other classes! :P

Hm, interesting. Stat block? :-)

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