Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus


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Where can I find the Magic Warrior archetype? My Google-fu is failing me.

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WabbitHuntr wrote:
Where can I find the Magic Warrior archetype? My Google-fu is failing me.

Inner Sea Intrigue. It's new.

Chess Pwn wrote:
which arcana would a myrmidarch be taking?

Anything marked blue in the handbook :)

Quote:
Also can you list a few of these ways that a magus can spend 15,000 to get +2/+2

The obvious ones being a Belt of Str/Dex or upgrading your magic weapon.


The blue ones
Familiar
Empowered Magic - lv6, and once per day empower isn't that enticing.
Spell Blending - but you want this later so lv9 arcana is fine
Hasted Assault - lv9

So there's not really any the myrmidarch would need to take, especially none that he'd need to take the feat to get it.

I supposed if you look at the entire item you're correct. I see it as 10000 for a +1 increase of weapon (which you can't do going bladebound myrmidarch anyways) or 12000 for the increase of your belt, giving +1/+1. Which are things you'd also be getting anyways, and after those you'd be at the point where 15000 for another +2 would be a bargain.


I want to make sure I understand some of the Magus Arcana correctly:

Distant Spellstrike: Am I understanding correctly that this doesn't work on spells that do not have a range greater than Touch? Otherwise, it is a complete superset of Reach Spellstrike.

Reach Spellstrike: Am I understanding correctly that this is needed to enable spells with a range of Touch for use with Distant Spellstrike? (That is, without using the Reach Spell metamagic feat.)

Natural Spell Combat: Can't a Magus alreday use Spell Combat with a Natural Attack without this Magus Arcana? The Esoteric archetype doesn't seem to need to alter Spell Combat to work with Improved Unarmed Strike, which works similarly to Natural Weapons.

* * * * * * * *

With respect to making Myrmidarch useful, this build that I linked in another thread is a fast way to get switch-hitting battlefield control online. Weapon Training saves you the need to spend a feat on Martial Focus, and provides a useful accuracy boost on top of that, as well as opening up Advanced Weapon Training to use later (Martial Focus doesn't do this, if I understand correctly; I just don't use Advanced Weapon Training in that build because I am trying to make it as tight as possible). I mostly ignore Ranged Spellstrike and take a hit from losing Spell Recall/Improved Spell Recall and Dimished Spellcasting, but on the other hand the build is fully online at m7th level to shoot things out of the air as well as shoot them down on the ground; everything after that is just to make the existing stuff work better. If you inserted a single Gunslinger level in front of it and changed Weapon Training (Bows) to Weapon Training (Firearms), even the Ranged Spellstrike would become moderately useful despite having no Ranged Spell Combat, becauase if you do it through a firearm attack within the first range increment (or more if you spend Grit point(s) on Dead Shot), your Ranged Touch Attack spells DON'T get downgraded to Ranged Standard Attack when used with Ranged Spellstrike, and can actually get moderately upgraded if you spent an Arcane Pool point to put an Enhancement Bonus on your firearm or if you manage to get hold of an enchanted firearm.

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
I want to make sure I understand some of the Magus Arcana correctly:

Distant Spellstrike: Yes, it only works on ranged spells unless you also have Reach Spellstrike. Of course, there's not much point in attaching a ranged spell to a ranged attack.

Reach Spellstrike: Correct. Overall, we can conclude that ranged spellstrike looks good on paper but is actually rather lacklustre. Card Caster doesn't have this issue.

Natural Spell Combat: Correct, but normally you can only use your primary weapon with spell combat, and this arcana lets you add another one to the routine, such as a bite.

Quote:
With respect to making Myrmidarch useful, this build that I linked in another thread is a fast way to get switch-hitting battlefield control online.

The problem with the argument that the myrm is a switch hitter is that (1) the regular Magus is already a switch hitter, and (2) switch hitting is not particularly impressive, tactically speaking. Carrying a backup weapon is good, building your whole strategy on it is not so good.

Chess Pwn wrote:
Which are things you'd also be getting anyways, and after those you'd be at the point where 15000 for another +2 would be a bargain.

The point is, if myrm can get +2/+2 for 15,000 (or for two feats) and regular Magus can get +1/+1 for 15,000 (or +1/+2 for two feats), then the advantage of the myrm is much smaller than you think it is. Even aside from that, by level 12 the Magus has several ways to turn his attacks into touch attacks, which basically make it irrelevant to get another +2.


myrm gets +1/+1 from training and +2/+2 for 15000
myrm takes weapon focus and weapon specialization if the base is taking it. It has nothing special it needs to use it's feats on.

So it's still +1/+1 and +2/+2 for 15000 over the base

So the advantage at lv12 is +4/+4 over the base magus.

I'm curious what are the several ways to get your attacks as touch attacks. I'm only aware of accurate strike.

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Chess Pwn wrote:

myrm gets +1/+1 from training and +2/+2 for 15000

myrm takes weapon focus and weapon specialization if the base is taking it. It has nothing special it needs to use it's feats on.

So what does the BASE take for that 15,000 he's saving, and the two extra feats he gets over myrm, and the extra spells?

Yes, myrm is stronger than a base who spends two feats on Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)), and 15,000 gp on wenches and beer. That's not a fair comparison though.


Where are these extra feats coming from? The myrm doesn't lose any feats.

So the base spends 15000 on a +1/+1, cool, myrm is still +2/+2 ahead, +3/+3 at lv12.

And again, I'm not arguing that it's better than the base, aka green. I'm just saying it's not garbage, aka red.

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Chess Pwn wrote:
And again, I'm not arguing that it's better than the base, aka green. I'm just saying it's not garbage, aka red.

Well you're overvaluing a numerical bonus that the class doesn't particularly need, and ignoring drawbacks like diminished spellcasting and losing arcana slots, and skipping over all the levels below twelve. That points to "It's A Trap".

Getting back to the actual point, are there any good combos for the myrm with either Weapon Training or Armor Training, preferably something usable at level 6 or 8, respectively? Because the actual strength of the myrm is not ranged combat nor a small numerical bonus, but access to WT and AT. So what can it do with that?


^I gave these to you above: Weapon Training ({your ranged weapon here}) at 6th level unlocks Ace Trip which is taken at 7th level so that you can actually shoot down airborne enemies. If you did the 1 level Gunslinger dip, both are at 7th level, and firearm vs Touch AC (use the Dead Shot Deed if you need to do this beyond the 1st range increment) actually makes Ranged Spellstrike worth some use (even without Ranged Spell Combat) if not exactly outstanding (even so, I still wish you could take a partial archetype -- I'd still rather have Spell Recall and Improved Spell Recall, but at least the Gunslinger dip makes Ranged Spellstrike noticeably useful).


Actually, thinking more about the Maneuver Mastery Magus Arcana, I might have to errata the above-linked Myrmidarch build. Maneuver Mastery lets you use your Magus level in place of your Base Attack Bonus for performing combat maneuvers, but this might not actually be good enough to qualify for Ace Trip at level 7, since Maneuver Mastery doesn't say that its substitution counts for feat prerequisites, and you need Magus level 9 to get actual Base Attack Bonus +6. I was going to say interchange this with the next feat, but the next feat is Greater Trip, which also needs Base Attack Bonus +6, which means that if my re-understanding of Maneuver Mastery is correct, it can't be moved forward either. I guess the next best thing is to bump Combat Casting forward to level 7, and then bump Ace Trip and Greater Trip back by 2 levels so that they are both legal.


If you want to be Mr. Combat Maneuver why not just spam Blade Lash or True Strike? Wand Wielder Arcana lets you go on all day. Spell recall is close enough.

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Actually, thinking more about the Maneuver Mastery Magus Arcana, I might have to errata the above-linked Myrmidarch build. Maneuver Mastery lets you use your Magus level in place of your Base Attack Bonus for performing combat maneuvers, but this might not actually be good enough to qualify for Ace Trip at level 7,

You are correct that Maneuver Mastery doesn't let you qualify for Ace Trip and Greater Trip earlier. I do question the choice of Combat Casting at moderate levels; your concentration check should be high enough that you don't need that.

I'm generally in favor of maneuver- or trip-based Magus builds; I find them effective and underplayed.

chuffster wrote:
If you want to be Mr. Combat Maneuver why not just spam Blade Lash or True Strike? Wand Wielder Arcana lets you go on all day. Spell recall is close enough.

Presumably because of Ace Trip, which lets you take down aerial opponents. I'm not too impressed by Ranged Trip, but spending a full round to take a flying enemy to the ground is useful.

On the other hand, at the levels where you and the party can reliably fly, it becomes decidedly less useful. Hm, I'd have to think on that.


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I just want to say: I love this thread title.

That is all.


Kurald Galain wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Actually, thinking more about the Maneuver Mastery Magus Arcana, I might have to errata the above-linked Myrmidarch build. Maneuver Mastery lets you use your Magus level in place of your Base Attack Bonus for performing combat maneuvers, but this might not actually be good enough to qualify for Ace Trip at level 7,
You are correct that Maneuver Mastery doesn't let you qualify for Ace Trip and Greater Trip earlier. I do question the choice of Combat Casting at moderate levels; your concentration check should be high enough that you don't need that. {. . .}

Thanks for the quick clarification. With respect to the Combat Casting, I thought it would be needed to compensate for not getting Improved Spell Combat, but I suppose another option would be to scratch that and instead put in Intensify Spell to give the option to do the standard Magus Intensified {whatever damage spell}, in case this is needed for an emergency (not necessarily just Shocking Grasp -- you never know when you might come across a Swarm and need Burning Hands).

Edit: Alternatively, since Ace Trip isn't an actual Advanced Weapons Training option (even though it requires Weapons Training or Martial Focus), I could take Advanced Weapons Training (the feat) at 7th level without disqualifying myself for taking Ace Trip as soon as possible afterwards. Some of these aren't as good on a Myrmidarch Magus (unless you go VMC Fighter, which eats too many feats for this build) as on a Fighter, but some are still pretty good. For instance, Warrior Spirit lets you get the equivalent of more Arcane Pool options (plus its own equivalent of Arcane Pool that starts out as good as Extra Arcane Pool, but slowly scales to get better) -- not sure if the straight-up Enhancement Bonuses would stack with those from your Arcane Pool (I think not), but you could put on Enhancement Bonus with Arcane Pool and then put on some Weapon Special Ability that you can't get normally get with Arcane Pool. (Some of these can be added with a Magus Arcana, so if you are going to use a certain one a lot, getting this with the Extra Magus Arcana feat is another option.)


Edit #2: Advanced Weapon Training (Trained Initiative) looks like a decent option, even though the scaling isn't as good as on an actual Fighter. And if you have a Psychic spellcaster in the group, Inspiring Confidence could be crucial to getting them back into the fight, although the low and slowly scaling uses per day really hurts, so better leave this to the Cleric/Oracle if you have one.

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Well, that's certainly interesting.

Warrior Spirit is good, in particular because it lets you add Bane to a weapon (at level 9, which is normally not available until level 15), albeit as a standard action. Ace Trip is a good choice until you get Overland Flight at level 13, although it has a mediocre prerequisite. Trained Initiative is pretty similar to Improved Initiative. I like the concept of Insp Confidence but in my experience fear effects are too uncommon to spend feats on. And this basically means getting a bonus feat at L12, because getting an AWT option is basically better than selecting a second weapon group.

Do you see anything good for armor?


If you want to keep on switch-hitting at higher levels, picking the Weapon Group that includes your main melee weapon might actually be worthwhile. I was originally even considering doing this first, but then that puts Ace Trip way late. Trained Initiative and Inspiring Confidence (*) work even if you are holding a weapon from the wrong Weapon Group, and this is true for some of the other Advanced Weapon Training options(**), but not all (for instance, on re-reading Warrior Spirit, this one requires you to designate a weapon of a Weapon Group for which you have Weapon Training; fortunately, you designate a weapon each day, so you aren't totally hosed if you lose your weapon, as long as you survive long enough to get a new one in one of the Weapon Groups for which you have Weapon Training.

(*)Really situational, as you noted, and the low uses per day really hurt.

(**)For instance, Versatile Training, if you find yourself really short on skills even with your high Intelligence and the skills associated with your Weapon Groups happen to match ones that you need, although this isn't as good on a Magus as on a Fighter, due to having 3/4 BAB.

Armor Training itself is useful up to 2 ranks at approximately the timing that you get those ranks (they come not too far off from when you become able to use Medium and then Heavy Armor effectively), so if you want Advanced Armor Training, you probably want to get it via the feat unless you have enough point buy points to go Dexterity-based and the campaign runs long enough for you to be able to afford the extra feats, in which case you won't be using anything beyond Light Armor. As for the Advanced Armor Training options themselves, I haven't studied these as much (they haven't been out as long), but on re-reading them, some of them look better than I thought at first. If you go for Heavy Armor after all (not Dexterity-based), Armored Juggernaut would be actually not too bad in the late game if you continue to be up against a lot of small minions (including Swarms); note that Myrmidarch Magus gets Armor Mastery at 20th level and gets full-speed Fighter Training, thus even qualifying for the Armor Mastery part of this Advanced Armor Training option just 1 level later than a Fighter. Armored Sprint could save you spell slots on Bladed Dash. If you need to craft your own magic armor, Master Armorer is a no-brainer. If you need to get into armor quicly (for instance, Intrigue-based campaign with short-notice combat interspersed in it), Quick Donning might be worthwhile. Most of these would be late game options with the build I linked above, although conceivably a subset of them might be useful at level 7, because apart from the mistake with the interpretation of Maneuver Mastery and feat qualification, I made that build really tight -- I was trying to make it for PFS even though I am not currently in it, and for PFS (and Council of Thieves), getting everything online as fast as possible matters even more than average.

With respect to using flight to catch airborne enemies, a lot of airborne enemies will be able to fly faster than you, even with the regular Fly spell (Overland Flight is slower), even with Armor Training removing some of the speed restriction imposed by Medium or Heavy Armor, so Ace Trip is still useful (especially if those enemies have their own ranged attacks, in which case if you DON'T have a way to trip them up, they can kite you).

Edit: Also, as far as I know, Ace Trip is the only to Trip flying opponents even if you manage to catch up to them, although if you could launch a net at them, it should at least theoretically (not sure off the top of my head about RAW support) have a similar effect, and a few spells would have similar effect; theoretically, Bolas should also have this effect, but I don't see RAW support). And Nets and Bolas are Exotic Weapons, which means eating at least 1 feat (in practice, probably more to make them good), and you can't afford the extra feats.


Edit #2: Just had a thought: Since Ace Trip and Greater Trip both cannot be before level 9, another possible (although non-optimal) use for the feat opened up at level 7 is to be non-Human (or Human with Dual Talent), which bumps feats before that back.


Edit #3: For the Gunslinger-dipped variant of the above-referenced build, Extra Grit at level 7 is actually a decent choice, since due to Magus MADness, you won't be able to afford a good Wisdom to get a good Grit pool in the first place, and the Siege Gunner archetype that makes Grit Intelligence-based also replaces the Deadeye Deed that you need for making Ranged Spellstrike be decent.

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Ok, thanks for your suggestions. Let's see, Armored Juggernaut is indeed a nice choice. I'm not sure how Armored Sprint would save you spell slots, but charging is not affected by your running speed. If you need to get into armor quickly, there's a spell for that.

Anyway, I've upgraded the myrm to yellow.


I forgot about Swift Girding -- although upon reading it, I just noticed that it is Transmutation instead of Conjuration (Teleportation) -- weird . . . Anyway, sounds like something you would definitely want to have on a Wand, if you can get one.

Armored Sprint saves you on some of your need to cast Bladed Dash. Not 100% sure I would go for this, given the scarcity of feats until later levels, but it is something to consider.

I found one mistake in my 1st message of the last set of 3, though: Advanced Armor Training is not available for that level 7 feat, because it requires the Armor Training class feature, which doesn't come online until level 9.

By the way, typo in the update of Myrmidarch in the guide: The first rank of Weapon Training itself comes online at level 6 -- you just can't get things like Ace Trip until level 9 due to BAB requirements (Focused Weapon or Warrior Spirit could be chosen at level 7 -- might want to move the boundary between Red and Orange to there instead of 9).

Also, rather than describing the Myrmidarch as the archer Magus (that's what Eldritch Archer is for), I would recommend describing it as a switch-hitter that gives preference to melee but can Spellstrike at range if necessary (although getting Weapon Training and Armor Training is more important than this -- I wish you could take those parts of the archetype and leave out the trade of Spell Recall and Improved Spell Recall for Ranged Spellstrike, which isn't really needed for switch-hitting unless you are going to do the Gunslinger dip).


From past experience (4+ years ago) the Myrm in our group vs me the multi-class Magus was a real star. Now we had a lot of people at the table 6-8 so it allowed for a lot more specialization to occur and as it was some time ago I think some of the things we encountered as possible problem areas have been fixed (after doing some reading in the thread).
But the PC was a god send when he could make it and really dished out the damage, when he could not make the game it was severely noticed and often the GM's encounters were significantly harder or near impossible.

MDC

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UnArcaneElection wrote:


Armored Sprint saves you on some of your need to cast Bladed Dash. Not 100% sure I would go for this, given the scarcity of feats until later levels, but it is something to consider.

Please explain how, I don't understand this one.

Quote:
Also, rather than describing the Myrmidarch as the archer Magus (that's what Eldritch Archer is for), I would recommend describing it as a switch-hitter that gives preference to melee but can Spellstrike at range if necessary

I am not so far convinced that the myrm is better at switch hitting than a regular Magus (who also gives preference to melee but can use spells or weapons at range if necessary).

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:
From past experience (4+ years ago) the Myrm in our group vs me the multi-class Magus was a real star.

That's good to know, perhaps you could share more details about his build and what he was doing. I should point out that the Magus by itself is a very effective class, and that even a not-so-great archetype of the Magus is still a Magus and can kick ass accordingly.


Kurald Galain wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:


Armored Sprint saves you on some of your need to cast Bladed Dash. Not 100% sure I would go for this, given the scarcity of feats until later levels, but it is something to consider.
Please explain how, I don't understand this one.

For those instances in which you primarily need Bladed Dash for fast repositioning but don't need the attack along the way, if you have invested enough in Acrobatics (to avoid AoOs), you can instead just move fast (faster than you would normally be able to) to reposition yourself (and since this also lets you retain your Dexterity Bonus to your Armor Class, even if a few AoOs go off, they aren't guaranteed to hit you). Save spell slots for something other than Bladed Dash. This keeps on working once you become able to use Heavy Armor, and the Armored Sprint ability is better than getting Run as a separate feat.

Kurald Galain wrote:
Quote:
Also, rather than describing the Myrmidarch as the archer Magus (that's what Eldritch Archer is for), I would recommend describing it as a switch-hitter that gives preference to melee but can Spellstrike at range if necessary
I am not so far convinced that the myrm is better at switch hitting than a regular Magus (who also gives preference to melee but can use spells or weapons at range if necessary).

No other Magus archetype gets Weapon Training, and I think other than the Myrmidarch, only the Armored Battle Mage gets Armor Training. Other archetypes can get things like Ace Trip (that is, Weapon Mastery feats) by using Martial Focus, but that is an extra feat, which wouldn't be so bad, except that Martial Focus doesn't unlock things other than Weapon Mastery feats that require Weapon Training.

If any of the other Magus archetypes want Weapon Training or Armor Training, they have to go VMC Fighter, which eats a LOT of feats and takes a long time to get Weapon Training online. This would be not bad for a long campaign (most APs), but seems like a non-starter for PFS or Council of Thieves.

Kurald Galain wrote:
Mark Carlson 255 wrote:
From past experience (4+ years ago) the Myrm in our group vs me the multi-class Magus was a real star.

That's good to know, perhaps you could share more details about his build and what he was doing. I should point out that the Magus by itself is a very effective class, and that even a not-so-great archetype of the Magus is still a Magus and can kick ass accordingly.

Sign me up for looking at this too. We need more good Myrmidarch builds to show what this archetype can really do! (Note: Before the Weapon Master's Handbook came out, Myrmidarch really was a bad archetype.)

By the way, Weapon Training also opens up the options detailed in this guide -- you wouldn't want all of these because you are already a Magus, but some of them might be useful.

Grand Lodge

Just a suggestion for a trait to be added.

Transmuter of Korada

It's atleast green worthy. I use it alot as +1 CL is huge for an entire school. That's better than a feat.


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Just a suggestion for a trait to be added.

Transmuter of Korada

It's atleast green worthy. I use it alot as +1 CL is huge for an entire school. That's better than a feat.

The problem is, AFAICT, Alteration spells rarely benefit significantly from an improved CL.


IIRC,
My multi-class magic was rogue (1-3 level's) to gain a lot of skill points, class skill's, evasion, trap finding and bonus feats, 1 level aldori dueling master (IIRC the name of the class) mainly to gain ability to use dex for damage but also flavor and the rest of the build was magus.
I think the idea has been talked about before as I started reading some stuff about the magus after I had thought of and planed the build. He lost a bit of power (vs pure magus) but he gained a lot of versatility, character and was very fun to play.

I try and build PC's in mind that eventually they will have to operate on their own and not part of a group, as well as build as well rounded PC as possible as in general people that are one dimensional are very rare.

MDC

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
For those instances in which you primarily need Bladed Dash for fast repositioning but don't need the attack along the way, if you have invested enough in Acrobatics (to avoid AoOs), you can instead just move fast (faster than you would normally be able to) to reposition yourself

I believe this is too niche to spend a feat or advanced training slot on. Note that running cannot be combined with charging (which is capped at twice your speed regardless) and that it's only rarely tactically useful to not attack.

Quote:
No other Magus archetype gets Weapon Training, and I think other than the Myrmidarch, only the Armored Battle Mage gets Armor Training. Other archetypes can get things like Ace Trip (that is, Weapon Mastery feats) by using Martial Focus,

I was surprised to see that Martial Focus doesn't give access to most of the good options for AWT, yes. Most campaigns most likely won't allow VMC or will be over by level 11, making fighter VMC not such a good pick. Armored BM is not worth the paper it's printed on.

So yes, the unique ability of myrm is AWT/AAT, and I hope they'll print some more options for that in the future.

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
It's atleast green worthy. I use it alot as +1 CL is huge for an entire school.

As Mauve says, this basically gives you +1 on spell resistance checks (but not for buffs, of course), and ups the duration from "more than you need" to "more than you need plus one". That doesn't strike me as particularly worthwhile.

Grand Lodge

Menacing Shade of mauve wrote:
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Just a suggestion for a trait to be added.

Transmuter of Korada

It's atleast green worthy. I use it alot as +1 CL is huge for an entire school. That's better than a feat.

The problem is, AFAICT, Alteration spells rarely benefit significantly from an improved CL.

It's for TRANSMUTATION not alteration.

Quote:
As Mauve says, this basically gives you +1 on spell resistance checks (but not for buffs, of course), and ups the duration from "more than you need" to "more than you need plus one". That doesn't strike me as particularly worthwhile.

+1 to CL of TRANSMUTATION is extra time on Buffs. As well as 1/day extend spell on an animal buff.

Mauve was wrong... completely

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Fruian, if you want to discuss this, you can start by being polite about it.

Grand Lodge

I was polite when I first posted it.

But I was told I was wrong...I'm just stating both of you failed reading the link and then turned it into something about Abjuration which had nothing to do with the post.


Kurald Galain wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
For those instances in which you primarily need Bladed Dash for fast repositioning but don't need the attack along the way, if you have invested enough in Acrobatics (to avoid AoOs), you can instead just move fast (faster than you would normally be able to) to reposition yourself

I believe this is too niche to spend a feat or advanced training slot on. Note that running cannot be combined with charging (which is capped at twice your speed regardless) and that it's only rarely tactically useful to not attack.

{. . .}

If I understand correctly, you can Run and then attack (Standard Action attack, not Full Attack), or attack and then Run. Having only a Standard Action means you can't use Spell Combat that round, but you can still use Spellstrike; alternatively, instead of making the Standard Action attack/Spellstrike, you could cast a spell that requires a Standard Action or less (this combination would be especially useful for spells whose area of effect is a line, for which it is going to be hard to get enemies into a line that is oriented the right way -- conceivably, this could even be useful if the spell you cast is going to be Greater Bladed Dash, if you are high enough level to use that). If you didn't already use your Swift Action, you could even set up two line spells this way if you have a way to cast one of them as a Swift Action (alternatively, if the two spells need to be cast from different places, you could use it to set this up). Note that Bladed Dash cannot be used for the Run move, unless you somehow manage to get a second Standard Action (that doesn't have a restriction against using it to cast more spells per round).

Kurald Galain wrote:
I was surprised to see that Martial Focus doesn't give access to most of the good options for AWT, yes. Most campaigns most likely won't allow VMC or will be over by level 11, making fighter VMC not such a good pick. Armored BM is not worth the paper it's printed on.

. . . And, I keep forgetting that PFS doesn't allow VMC anyway.


Eh, I'm curious to see just how many Magus spells Transmuter of Korada would affect. So I think I'll just go through level by level real quick and bring up every Transmutation spell that relies on caster level that is available to the Magus. Eventually, at least.

1st level:
Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Gorum's Armor, Ironbeard, Jump, Jury-Rig, Lighten Object, Linebreaker, Long Arm, Longshot, Monkeyfish, Reduce Person, Reinforce Armaments, Serren's Swift Girding, Sundering Shards, Unerring Weapon, Weaponwand

... Wow, now there's a bunch of situational spells. Out of those first few, the only ones I'd really consider really worthwhile in a large variety of situations would be Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Long Arm, and Reduce Person. Sadly, I don't have the time to go through more right now, but that already makes me somewhat skeptical of the trait, as it doesn't have a ton of immediate use.


Can a magus still go hexcrafter/black blade? Thought I read something that they made the two incompatible?


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

I was polite when I first posted it.

But I was told I was wrong...I'm just stating both of you failed reading the link and then turned it into something about Abjuration which had nothing to do with the post.

Chill. The f%%*. Out.

I wrote Alteration. Not Transmutation, but also not Abjuration. My bad, it happened because I'm old and things were named differently when I learned AD&D. But the point still stands; unlike Evocation and Necromancy, Transmutation doesn't benefit much from a CL boosts. As Kurald Galain pointed out, it usually just moves the duration from "enough" to "enough".


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
ekibus wrote:
Can a magus still go hexcrafter/black blade? Thought I read something that they made the two incompatible?

RAW, no. Even adding a new option to a list of options counts as altering the entire list now, so Hexcrafter giving you a new arcana and Bladebound replacing one arcana makes them incompatible. For reasons.

That said most GMs I've seen have let this slide because it's pretty ridiculous and unintuitive.


Yeah but as per pfs it would be outlawed that sucks

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
If I understand correctly, you can Run and then attack (Standard Action attack, not Full Attack), or attack and then Run.

Sorry, but no: run is a full-round action.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
By the way, Weapon Training also opens up the options detailed in this guide -- you wouldn't want all of these because you are already a Magus, but some of them might be useful.

True, although I don't think the SLAs offered by those feats are all that useful for a spellcaster.

ekibus wrote:
Can a magus still go hexcrafter/black blade? Thought I read something that they made the two incompatible?

The FAQ talks about class features that grant multiple subfeatures, such as bardic performance (which has central rules for how to perform, and subfeatures like countersong, inspire courage, and so forth). It is my understanding that Magus arcana is not a feature with multiple subfeatures, and by that reading, Hexcrafter and Black Blade can still be combined.

Searching the Paizo forums suggests that this is, indeed, the most common interpretation, and that HC/BB hybrids are generally accepted. That said, it is clear that this is not universal. Barring future clarification from Paizo, I suggest to ask your GM.

mourge40k wrote:
... Wow, now there's a bunch of situational spells. Out of those first few, the only ones I'd really consider really worthwhile in a large variety of situations would be Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Long Arm, and Reduce Person. Sadly, I don't have the time to go through more right now, but that already makes me somewhat skeptical of the trait, as it doesn't have a ton of immediate use.

In addition, there's no practical difference between a one-minute Enlarge and a two-minute enlarge: both reliably last through a single combat, and both are very unlikely to last until a second combat. That makes it basically a trap trait: it looks pretty good at first glance, but analysis shows that it's really not.


Kurald Galain wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
If I understand correctly, you can Run and then attack (Standard Action attack, not Full Attack), or attack and then Run.

Sorry, but no: run is a full-round action.

{. . .}

Well, . . . Poo. That's what I get for not drilling down far enough along chains of less commonly used things. That cuts down the usefulness to situations in which you have Swift Action spellcasting available and/or somehow manage to get an extra Standard Action (preferably both).

Silver Crusade

@ UnArcaneElecton, I know you don't play PFS, but if you were to build a PFS legal gun using myrmidarch, how would you do it? What would be your arcana/feats/spells selections and at what levels? What would be your stats/race selection? And so on and so forth.

I appreciate any advice you can give.

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Since familiars are very powerful and flexible these days, and an obvious pick for any Magus that's not a bladebound, I've added a section on familiars and familiar archetypes. Enjoy!

Also, I've taken a look at the Spymaster's Handbook but this doesn't contain any particularly good material for the Magus.


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isdestroyer wrote:

@ UnArcaneElecton, I know you don't play PFS, but if you were to build a PFS legal gun using myrmidarch, how would you do it? What would be your arcana/feats/spells selections and at what levels? What would be your stats/race selection? And so on and so forth.

I appreciate any advice you can give.

Sorry, just now saw your message.

But before I answer your question, first I need to post a debugged version of the switch-hitter Myrmidarch build I originally posted here :

Human, 15 point buy (non-PFS): Str 16 (+2 went here), Dex 13, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 11, Chr 7 (I hate dumping, but it is unavoidable for this)
Human, 20 point buy (PFS): Str 16 (+2 went here), Dex 15, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 10, Chr 7

Traits: Campaign/PFS trait, Pragmatic Activator (gets us UMD-to-Int, and we already have it in-class, so just need to move it away from dumped Charisma onto boosted Intelligence)

Myrmidarch Magux all the way, or just maybe do a 1 level dip into something else (see below).

Favored Class Bonus all goes to Hit Points

1: Level 1 Character Feat = Combat Reflexes; Human Bonus Feat = Combat Expertise (alternatively Dirty Fighting, but the spell Blade Tutor's Spirit actually lets us make good use of Combat Expertise); use your melee weapon of choice (preferably a one-handed weapon with the Trip quality, such as the Flail); also use a (Composite) Longbow; use True Strike (with Spell Combat) as needed to make sure that enemies go down when really urgent; more economically, use Long Arm and/or Enlarge Person to get Reach that lasts through multiple attacks
2: -
3: Level 3 Magus Arcana = Maneuver Mastery (Trip); Level 3 Character Feat = Improved Trip
4: Level 4 Ability Score Increase goes to Dexterity (and here we also get the Myrmidarch's lousy Ranged Spellstrike, which we aren't going to use very much; we would have rather kept Spell Recall, so start looking into getting Pearls of Power to compensate for this and Diminished Spellcasting); use Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace to self-buff
5: Level 5 Magus Bonus Feat = Deadly Aim (which Blade Tutor's Spirit actually lets us make good use of since we usually don't Combat Expertise simultaneously); Level 5 Character Feat = Ranged Trip; use True Strike as needed to make sure that even distant enemies go down when urgent, even when you are operating under non-ideal conditions for archery
6: Level 6 Myrmidarch Weapon Training = Bows (replaces a Magus Arcana -- well worth the trade, and this is what we went Myrmidarch for)
7: Level 7 Character Feat = Wildcard Feat (see below) -- due to BAB +6 requirement, we can't get the Ace Trip or Greater Trip we want just yet
8: Level 8 Myrmidarch Armor Training; Level 8 Ability Score Increase goes to Intelligence
9: Level 9 Magus Arcana = Spell Blending (Staggering Fall, and choose some other low-level spell -- use Staggering Fall as an Immediate Action on enemies you Trip, including Ace Trip, and you don't even need Spell Combat or Spellstrike to do this); Level 9 character feat = Ace Trip (which requires the Weapon Training we got at the 6th level); use True Strike as needed to make sure that even flying enemies go down when urgent, even when you are operating under non-ideal conditions for archery
10: -
11: Level 11 Magus Bonus Feat = Persistent Spell (especially for use with Staggering Fall -- suddenly enemies' save every round to throw off the effects doesn't look so good); Level 11 Character Feat = Greater Trip
12 (post-PFS or if you have the right PFS boon): Level 12 Myrmidarch Weapon Training = Flails (or whatever Weapon Group includes your melee weapon; replaces a Magus Arcana); Level 12 Ability Score Increase goes to Intelligence
13-on: Start investing in archery feats to make your archery even better

This switch-hitting build gets its basics online fairly fast -- just 2 levels behind a Fighter (except 3 behind a Weapon Master who chooses the composite longbow, but who is then a 1-trick pony who can just use 1 shoe size) Myrmidarch's Ranged Spellstrike is mainly a feature tradeout tax for us, since we usually want to use an arrow to do Ranged Trip/Ace Trip with optional True Strike to boost the attempt, not to do a Spellstrike (and we don't get Eldritch Archer's Ranged Spell Combat, which would trade out the standard Spell Combat that we really want to keep). If you manage to find a use for Ranged Spelstrike, it's icing on the cake. We're into Myrmidarch for the Weapon Training (and to a lesser extent Armor Training). A non-Myrmidarch Magus VMC Fighter could also get these, but with the Weapon Training coming much later, and leaving us very feat-starved.

Now, about that Wildcard Feat that I mentioned above at 7th level: You can use this to customize the build at levels still relevant for a significant part of a PFS career. Here are some options:

1. Be something other than Human. In that case, you don't have a bonus feat at 1st level, so some of your feats get shifted back by 2 levels, so you use the 7th level character feat to get back into specification.
2. If you want the option to do the standard Magus thing with damaging spells like Shocking Grasp, get Intensify Spell.
3. Why not get some more use out your Weapon Training and get Advanced Weapon Training ({one of the options discussed in earlier posts}).
4. Need another Magus Arcana? Extra Magus Arcana is your friend.
5. If you are NOT in PFS and can't get it friendly full caster to do crafting for you at cut-rate prices, get Craft Wondrous Item and make Pearls of Power (among other things) -- since you don't have Spell Recall and have Diminished Spellcasting, you are going to need a ton of them.
6. Get a feat that synergizes with a dip into another class.

Potential dip into another class: Some classes and archetypes at 1st level give you Grit or Panache and a Deed that you can use to make a Ranged Touch Attack instead of a normal Ranged Attack with a ranged weapon, thereby making the Myrmidarch's lacklustre Ranged Spellstrike become actually useful. The most useful of these is non-archetyped Gunslinger with its Deadeye Deed for when you need to attack Touch AC beyond the first range increment (within the first range increment, you don't need to use it). DON'T try to get a Gunslinger archetype that makes Grit work off Intelligence instead of Wisdom (Siege Gunner), because it also trades out the Deadeye Deed. Unfortunately, this means that you won't have much Grit, so you could (as long as you stick with Human) either use the Wildcard Feat for Extra Grit, or trade out some Strength for Wisdom + Dexterity and get Weapon Finesse at an early level, and use the Wildcard Feat to relieve the resulting delay in some of your other feats (same general idea as if you were not Human and not dipping, except that the dip also delays Magus Bonus Feats by 1 level).


Additional thought on the variant of the above that uses a Gunslinger dip: If you use a two-handed firearm to get longer range, and then use the Deadeye Deed to make your attack be against Touch AC instead of normal AC, the reduction in the target's effective AC combined with longer range increments might under certain reasonably common conditions more than make up for the -4 penalty for using it one-handed, if you need to do that to get off a Ranged Spellstrike. If you are casting a spell with no Somatic Components, you don't even have to take that penalty, because unlike Spell Combat, Spellstrike (Ranged or otherwise) doesn't require you to have a hand free when using it with a spell that has no Somatic components. Not sure if this makes it worthwhile to get Still Spell, though -- you probably need Extra Grit or Weapon Finesse more, depending upon which Gunslinger dip option you chose above.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Kurald Galain wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:


Armored Sprint saves you on some of your need to cast Bladed Dash. Not 100% sure I would go for this, given the scarcity of feats until later levels, but it is something to consider.
Please explain how, I don't understand this one.

For those instances in which you primarily need Bladed Dash for fast repositioning but don't need the attack along the way, if you have invested enough in Acrobatics (to avoid AoOs), you can instead just move fast (faster than you would normally be able to) to reposition yourself (and since this also lets you retain your Dexterity Bonus to your Armor Class, even if a few AoOs go off, they aren't guaranteed to hit you). Save spell slots for something other than Bladed Dash. This keeps on working once you become able to use Heavy Armor, and the Armored Sprint ability is better than getting Run as a separate feat.

Bladed dash isn't a replacement for a move action, it's only a 30ft range which you can probably match (or even exceed when you have haste or fly active), what it is is an extra attack and the ability to move and full attack, it's like pounce, only you get an extra free attack with a bonus equal to your int mod and don't provoke AoOs.


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I've found an error. Bladebound and Hexcrafter can't stack because of this FAQ.
Hexcrafter is adding an option to the magus arcana list and bladebound is needing to replace one.

FAQ wrote:
However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, ... you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as ... adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select ....

If something alters the parent class you can't take an archetype that removes of of the sub-features. Altering the parent class can be as small as adding an option to the available list.

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Chess Pwn wrote:
If something alters the parent class you can't take an archetype that removes of of the sub-features. Altering the parent class can be as small as adding an option to the available list.

We've already covered that. The FAQ talks about class features that grant multiple subfeatures, such as bardic performance (which has central rules for how to perform, and subfeatures like countersong, inspire courage, and so forth). It is my understanding that Magus arcana is not a feature with multiple subfeatures, and by that reading, Hexcrafter and Black Blade can still be combined.

Searching the Paizo forums suggests that this is, indeed, the most common interpretation, and that HC/BB hybrids are generally accepted.


Kurald Galain wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
If something alters the parent class you can't take an archetype that removes of of the sub-features. Altering the parent class can be as small as adding an option to the available list.

We've already covered that. The FAQ talks about class features that grant multiple subfeatures, such as bardic performance (which has central rules for how to perform, and subfeatures like countersong, inspire courage, and so forth). It is my understanding that Magus arcana is not a feature with multiple subfeatures, and by that reading, Hexcrafter and Black Blade can still be combined.

Searching the Paizo forums suggests that this is, indeed, the most common interpretation, and that HC/BB hybrids are generally accepted.

That is a very interesting interpretation of Magus Arcana. That means that Bladebound and Kensai don't stack. Bladebound replaces the third level Arcana and Kensai replaces the ninth. If those were subfeatures then that would be ok, but if Magus Arcana is just a singular feature then both of those changes affect that one ability and so are incompatible.


I think it's worth noting that the Mindblade's weapons are supernatural abilities and as such would ignore damage reduction. At least I'm fairly certain that's how that works, feel free to prove me wrong.


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The creation of the blade is Su, so it can't be dispelled and isn't subject to SR, but the blades are still subject to DR and treated as a normal blade when fighting.

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