A further thought: Flamboyant Arcana and Quickened Spell work very poorly together. It probably makes sense to retrain Flamboyant Arcana when you get Quickened Spell. Or just avoid one or the other altogether.
Or just avoid one or the other altogether.
A bit of self commentary there?
Very meta.
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I have been trying to avoid myself for years, with mixed results.
Bane blade is available at 15th level minimum. That's not just 'later' than accurate strike (9th) or arcane accuracy (3rd), it's practically over the horizon. If you have to actually play the intervening 12 levels then you're going to want one of the earlier two. Also if you have the arcane pool points and a round to spare then it can be possible to use arcane pool to enhance your weapon (with or without bane blade) and use accurate strike or arcane accuracy.
Yeah the ability to add a floating Bane enchantment makes pretty much everything obsolete, unless you can also stack those other things as well.
Bane also has a potential "weakness" if you're fighting varied opponents, eg. Undead and a Necromancer (not a weakness exactly, but you get the idea).
Another potential benefit of Arcane Accuracy or Accurate Strike is that they're not tied to a weapon, so you could use them to grapple/bull-rush/etc.
Points well-taken. There is always the option of retraining as well.
I am mulling over Spell Perfection/Quicken Spell. I could see it coming in very handy with Dimensional Agility: Spell Combat, teleport to outside BBEG's reach (ideally), swift action quickened empowered rime frostbite, 5-foot step, Spellstrike iteratives.
I am of course dismayed by the swift action logjam. Does anyone have play experience with this?
I am intrigued by using my 5th level slots for maximized empowered vampiric touch (in addition to the customary overland flight) with a piercing metamagic rod, and then putting a maximized vampiric touch in my mithral buckler +X of spell storing.
Does anyone have any thoughts/suggestions in this vein? Here is the build I am working on, for reference. This is a Rise of the Runelords campaign, so I'm assuming we will finish around Level 15/16 (no spoilers please!):
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Craft Wondrous Item (Retrain to Spell Penetration?)
4: Hex Arcana: Flight
5: Dervish Dance
5: Rime Spell [1]
6: Arcana: Flamboyant Arcana
7: Enforcer
9: Improved Initiative
9: Arcana: Accurate Strike?
11: Empower Spell [2]
11: Dimensional Agility
12: Arcana: Spell Blending (Heroism, Greater Resist Energy)
13: Maximize Spell? [3]
15: Spell Perfection: Vampiric Touch
15: Arcana: Bane Blade
So a couple of things.
By level 15 you should be able to pretty much auto-pass your concentration checks, so the 5-foot-step-dance shouldn't be as neccessary. Good to know you know it, but probably less important by then.
Maximized and Empowered don't "stack". They can work together, but in a weird way. You don't maximize it then ad 50% on top of that, instead you roll the damage normally and work out what 50% of that damage would be, and call that X. Then you maximize the spell and add X to the maximized result. It's still bonus damage, but it's not 150% of max damage (unless you roll max on your empowered roll, in which case Maximized hasn't done anything except increase the spell level).
If you're going to choose between Maximized and Empowered I'd choose Empowered. They end up nearly the same on average, but Maximized is one level higher. Once you have Spell Perfection this doesn't matter so much for that spell, but if you ever want to use it with other spells Empowered is the cheaper version (just my opinion).
Also you can't wear a buckler if you want to use Dervish Dance. Sorry.
Notes as a former magus: spellstrike is fun but you need a solid attack for when you just can't load up your blade with a spell. Holding the charge is incompatible with other spellcasting after all. The free attack from casting a touch spell is a single attack not a full attack, and dimensional agility is mostly unnecessary because you can still take the rest of the spell combat action including attacks after casting d.door if not a swift action afterwards. Yes I see your plan there but a single attack isn't enough to get excited about.
Empowered mirror image and a decent AC can drive your GM to distraction.
There are some strange and occasionally useful metamagic feats released in PF1s dying days which you might want to take a look at.
Swift action congestion is a longstanding problem which you should try to avoid.
I appreciate very much the feedback and will post more when I have more time, but just quickly for now, my understanding is that one can use a buckler with Dervish Dance. We have the FAQ from Slashing Grace.
Slashing Grace is not Dervish Dance.
Slashing Grace doesn't work with Spell Combat because Slashing Grace says: "You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied."
Meanwhile Dervish Dance CAN be use with Spell Combat because it has different text: "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."
You can see that these feats have different restrictions, and while Dervish dance doesn't prohibit Spell Combat it does completely nix the use of any shields.
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A brief takeaway from this is the value of Accurate Strike and the importance of managing the Magus's Arcane Pool for its use. Relatedly, the average CR 12 creature has 157.6 hit points.
The catch is that you can reliably use Arcane Pool enchantment during every round of combat for the entire day, whereas you don't have the pool points to do that with Accurate Strike.
A further thought: Flamboyant Arcana and Quickened Spell work very poorly together.
You probably don't cast a quickened spell every round, so I don't think it's such a big conflict.
I am of course dismayed by the swift action logjam. Does anyone have play experience with this?
Yes, I do. I would do dimdoor or Bladed Dash to get a full attack in, and use Frostbite the next round if needed (casting it defensively). So regarding your build, I would try to take Dimensional Agility at level 10.
if you ever want to use it with other spells Empowered is the cheaper version (just my opinion).
I concur.
Slashing Grace is not Dervish Dance.
Slashing Grace doesn't work with Spell Combat because Slashing Grace says: "You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied."
Meanwhile Dervish Dance CAN be use with Spell Combat because it has different text: "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."
You can see that these feats have different restrictions, and while Dervish dance doesn't prohibit Spell Combat it does completely nix the use of any shields.
I agree that Slashing Grace and Dervish Dance are different, but from what I have read so far, it does not yet seem clear to me that Dervish Dance prevents use of a buckler. This thread has it very open to interpretation, especially with the dev comment.
This buckler issue may be something that becomes more about semantics (e.g. "held in the hand" vs. "carrying," etc), in which case there may be little value in attempting to derive a convincing generalization.
Kurald, do you have a take on the Dervish Dance/buckler issue?
Also, duly noted on Quicken Spell and swift actions. The good thing is I will get a chance to play with this character a bit before I have to make those decisions (starting at Level 8).
Understood, too, about the Accurate Strike issue - I actually sort of changed my mind on that. Still not sure of its value, given the action economy and existing DPR. Distracted by the upcoming Red Sox game, but still valuing very much everyone's input, and I hope this post was cogent enough.
Don’t be shocked if you come across a GM who decides that dervish dance doesn’t work with spell combat either, since the other dex to damage feats have been changed to not work with it
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Kurald, do you have a take on the Dervish Dance/buckler issue?
I infer from Mark Seifter's statement in that discussion, and from Paizo's general design principle that "things must be really the same or really different", that you cannot use a buckler with Dervish Dance. But expect table variation.
Anyway, managing your swift actions is part of the challenge of playing a mid-to-high level Magus. I would say that arcane pool enchant is the bread-and-butter you use every combat, and Accurate Strike is situational for when you're facing something that needs to die right now.
I truly appreciate all of the help. I feel like the Magus class is designed for true Pathfinder nerds, like me.
I will confer with my GM about Dervish Dance and buckler usage.
Why is flamboyant arcana rated so highly? Opportune Riposte and Parry burns through arcane pool points very quickly and you have to roll before the attack, so you don't know if you'll even get a higher score than your AC. Magus AC in general is rather high as well, so the odds of rolling higher aren't great.
You just have to beat their roll, which should work pretty well if you have a high initiative and are debuffing.
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Magus AC in general is rather high as well, so the odds of rolling higher aren't great.
Magus AC is only guaranteed to be "rather high" if you assume the only playable build is a dex-based Kensai with Mage Armor. It is an entirely valid approach for a Magus to have a decent-but-not-great AC and rely on other defenses, like Mirror Image or Flamboyant Arcana.
Plus, bear in mind that even if the parry was unnecessary, it still gets you a free riposte. Extra attacks are always good.
Yes, Flamboyant Arcana is more about offense in my mind.
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Also remember your Parry can knock away Touch Attacks and Combat Maneuvers, so sometimes it's not your regular AC that you're comparing against.
Excellent point, MrCharisma. I hadn't thought of that.
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Yeah I thought of it right after using my last Panache point while I was fighting a Ghost ... =(
May I ask, does anyone have a FAQ or something convincing for a ruling on the use of Demoralize on animals/creatures that can't understand you?
My GM has ruled that if the creature can't understand me, I can't intimidate it, which is fine, but I thought I might try and convince him otherwise, seeing as how I have partially built this character around it.
Many thanks.
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Intimidate is not language-dependent, so a target's ability to understand in that sense does not come into play.
The demoralize application of the skill is a mind-affecting fear effect, so mindless creatures and other creatures immune to mind-affecting and/or fear effects cannot be demoralized (such as most undead, vermin, contructs, and oozes).
Edit: for real world examples, humans and other creatures are easily intimidated by bears, wolves, and other predators despite not being able to understand them.
Yeah Intimidate isn't language dependant.
Just gonna put this here in case it helps your case:
Size Bonus: You gain a +4 bonus on checks to demoralize creatures smaller than you and take a –4 penalty on checks to demoralize creatures larger than you.
Thank you, my internet friends.
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You labeled it Okay for levels 1-13 and Good for levels 14+. Personally I would argue it should be Good at 11+ as that is when you can get Flurry of Blows which pairs very well with a Frostbite build.
Well, the artificer's flurry gives you the same amount of attacks as spell combat does, so that doesn't strike me as a big deal. As I recall, I did some math on the artificer, and level 14 is the first where his unarmed attacks actually starts outdamaging a weapon.
Hi all,
What do you think should be my next priority upgrade on this gear list? Should I save for celestial armor, or focus on my saves first? Or other ideas?
This is for a three-person Rise of the Runelords campaign where my character is both the primary single target damage dealer and the "tank." Other PCs are a ranger and a sorcerer.
Both this PC and the sorcerer have Craft Wondrous Item.
Spellguard bracers IMO. Losing spells because you're in melee is a pain, and from the sound of it you're in melee all the time.
Thank you, @avr. I think that is a good call. What would you go for after the bracers?
Unless you have more than the max dex of the mithral kikko (unlikely?), celestial armor is a net ~18K for +2 AC. You can get +2 AC from the amulet and ring upgrades for 9K, and if you need fly then another item will still cost less than the difference.
As the only tank AC is likely your top priority. I'd probably get those upgrades next. OTOH it's entirely possible that you've optimised more than the AP requires already - I understand that Paizo APs are made so that people who don't optimise at all can complete them. You might be free to go for whatever you find shiniest at this point.
Thank you. I have to optimize because we are a three-person party and the other two PCs are not optimized much at all.
I do have +7 to Dex, so the celestial armor gets me +3 off the bat. But I'd need to upgrade the dex belt to get the full +8 bonus.
I was thinking I need to be more wary of saves. Debuffs/mirror image/shield/displacement/flamboyant arcana have been sufficient in the little experience I have so far to mitigate most physical damage.
I was thinking it might be wise to get the cloak up to +5 and get the +1 ioun stone, for a total of 12k.
Does that makes sense, do you think? Here is my character sheet, if anyone is interested.
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If your actions have been sufficient to mitigate most physical damage so far then you don't need to optimise harder.
By Derklord's bench-pressing spreadsheet you're about at green (good, but not over-the-top amazing) for AC and saves, before buffs, debuffs on enemies, etc. This is a good place to be. With buffs etc. you're probably up to blue (over-the-top amazing) for AC; saves are harder to buff so if you're going to optimise harder that's probably the one to go for.
Thanks again, @avr. That's a handy resource. I think I'll do saves and the bracers next.
Looks like in a few months this guide (or another branch of it) will be able to cover the 2nd Edition Magus. Just in case anyone has been out for a while or otherwise didn't notice, the Secrets of Magic Playtest has been introduced.
Most spells take at least two actions, I think. Haven't looked at the Magus that closely, but it seems like there's some kind of... compression going on there.
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I just took a quick glance at it an it seems like, with my admittedly limited knowledge of 2e, its main shtick seems to be something you could already do? Attack, spell, attack?
Spells take two actions.
But yes, the P2 Magus's main shtick is indeed something any caster can do (i.e. cast-and-attack as three actions).
Anyway, given how P1 and P2 are completely incompatible, I obviously won't be covering the P2 Magus in this P1 guide.
Could it be argued that Dimensional Agility is overkill? How many times will 50' storm step not be sufficient, so as to make taking an entire feat, using a higher level spell slot, and forgoing 22 damage the better choice?
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Could it be argued that Dimensional Agility is overkill? How many times will 50' storm step not be sufficient
Every time that there's either a barrier in the way, or you want to bring allies along.
And yes, I've had several instances of using dimdoor where 50' range would not have been sufficient.
Finally, Bladed Dash is generally better than Storm Step, and again a level lower.
Yes, I should have mentioned Bladed Dash as well - Storm Step when there are multiple targets or the target is out of Bladed Dash range.
Sometimes it could be a bad idea to be behind a barrier far away from my party.
The flexibility is undeniable, but it seems perhaps too situational to take up a coveted feat spot. I'm not sure.
Has anyone ever thought of playing the armored battlemage as more of a blaster? The armor could allow you to focus on maxing intelligence, while letting your physical stats be secondary. You really only need enough strength to carry the weight. For a weapon you could use a reach weapon for some free attacks off your turn. With spell recall, you'd have a lot of potential blasts in a day, while also being able to prep some utility. The extra concentration bonus could help you utilize your blasts in the middle of the battlefield.
{. . .}
Anyway, given how P1 and P2 are completely incompatible, I obviously won't be covering the P2 Magus in this P1 guide.
Fair enough. Although given the extra complexity of Magi, it might be worth having a section on converting characters between editions.
Has anyone ever thought of playing the armored battlemage as more of a blaster? The armor could allow you to focus on maxing intelligence, while letting your physical stats be secondary. You really only need enough strength to carry the weight. For a weapon you could use a reach weapon for some free attacks off your turn. With spell recall, you'd have a lot of potential blasts in a day, while also being able to prep some utility. The extra concentration bonus could help you utilize your blasts in the middle of the battlefield.
I sort of think a fighter 1 / psychic bloodline sorcerer X would be much better at that, or a theologian cleric. Even more spells/day than spell recall would enable, and concentration to cast defensively isn't as hard as all that with spellguard bracers.
If you lose spell combat and you're not using spellstrike then other classes have a serious edge over a magus. Remember: you're not usually competing with other magi alone.
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Has anyone ever thought of playing the armored battlemage as more of a blaster? The armor could allow you to focus on maxing intelligence, while letting your physical stats be secondary.
While you can certainly play a blaster Magus focusing on intelligence (in fact, the guide has a section on that), I fail to see how the armored battlemage adds anything to that. Frankly, I would use the Eldritch Archer archetype for that.
I fail to see how the armored battlemage adds anything to that.
I said how... freed up physical stats, good defenses and concentration checks. An eldritch archer build will want lots of dexterity and feats for archery.